BS: Never draw first!

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 07:45 PM

Never draw first ? ? ?

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 10:50 PM

Heck, my nephew shot at a deer and scared it so bad it disappeared entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: gnu
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 10:34 AM

Rap... his first jump was an over the shoulder of about 8 feet. On the second, he never touched down until he was in the woods and out of view. I kinda like ta think he's still up there bragging.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 08:11 AM

Having seen a similar situation, the start isn't too fast. It gets fast after they drop some ballast. If someone were shooting at me, I'd drop some ballast right away and hope it didn't get caught in my pants.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 11:29 PM

Yeah, gnu, but how fast did the buck run?

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: gnu
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 03:16 PM

I had an operation a while back and the following hunting season was a washout. I went to the woods as usual, carried my 12 just in case and only fired one shell... on the last day as I was about to leave just to see if I could. Only time I have pulled the trigger since was to scare a small buck back into the woods when I saw a "novice hunter" buddy of mine taking a bead on it from way too far away. I was afraid he might just hit it... couldn'a been more that 120 field dressed.

Hehehee... the lads were freaked out. With my trusty WIN 94 dirty-thirty carbine (lever action), I fired three shells (one about a foot over his head which sent him to ground, one about ten feet in front of him in the mud in the ditch, and one about three feet in front of him and about three feet in the air... all off which were "safe") in about two seconds. He ran back through his own asshole and made over 20 feet to the woods on the second jump.

It wasn't the rapidity of fire but the fact that I missed three times from about 90 yards. I said, "Guess it's time I have to admit that my eye needs a scope when it's getting dark. #@%$&#!" They bought it. I know I am still a crack shot... might need a little practice... maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 12:42 PM

Your choice, and I respect you for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 11:55 AM

by the way me "I study war no more" I don't teach the things I don't even hunt anymore. I release the fish I catch unharmed ... I play guitar ... I find it more comforting. And I do respect those that still do. Just a personal decision I made a long time ago

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 11:08 AM

But think about it from an evolutionary standpoint - that you react more quickly than you act is fascinating, and yet another demonstration that behavior is a wave, not a particle!

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: olddude
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 10:13 AM

my last big buck, 80 yards freehand with an S+W .44 mag in the neck. I know exactly how far since it was in the grapevines and the posts are 9 feet apart. Thats a shot

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: olddude
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:20 AM

that pretty good shooting rap, now what I want is to work on doing the exact same thing with the weak side, go left handed if you are right handed ... do the same with both ... its important

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:10 AM

Yes, only it isn't due to computers....

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: gnu
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 07:02 AM

Rap... Like peopleless offices?

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:32 PM

Annie Oakley did NOT use bird shot. She used .22 shorts, but not shot cartridges unless she was using a shotgun. This is quite well documented -- the confusion arose because some of the other "sharpshooters" of the day DID use shot cartridges. Annie also never exposed her legs during the show, wearing leggings at all times. She was of Quaker background, by the way.

21 feet...when I did the shooting for my KY CCW permit I had to shoot at 21 feet and hit the man-sized siluohette target 11 times out of 20 shots. I was using a Ruger Mark II .22 pistol, and placed all 20 rounds in the lower right quadrant of the "head", creating a hole about 2 inches across. That's simply target shooting, though -- not at all like true combat shooting, when your "fight or flight" has kicked in and you're facing possible death.

For my money, Fairbairn and Sykes, along with Rex Applegate, are still the top of the heap. If you don't know them, be glad.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: olddude
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:19 PM

Great article Ed
as someone who taught martial arts, sharp edged weapons, handgun instruction that article is right on the mark. It all depends on the skill level for some 21 ft is fine, for others it is way too close.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 09:46 PM

Research on the 21 foot rule, sharp edged weapons and guns:

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/21-feet-valid.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: olddude
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 08:54 PM

i agree with bee-dubya-ell, i don't want to find out their skill level after the fact. confronted by deadly force and your life is in eminent danger there is no such thing as a fair fight. and in most cases the bad guy will no longer wish to engage when it is drawn and ready

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 08:40 PM

DRAW FIRST!

I heard a more informed and informative piece about this test on public radio today. The small gain in speed due to "shooting second" is more than negated by response time. Yes, test subjects who went second performed the tested activity 20 milliseconds faster, but it took them 200 milliseconds to respond to the "first shooter's" action.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: olddude
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 08:29 PM

you are very correct. even with the police most will miss under stress
now the guys who won't miss regardless of stress, navy seals, special forces (rangers, delta etc), CIA, and FBI. those dudes are deadly and, Secret Service, air marshals. they will hit ever time every one of them

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 08:26 PM

Annie Oakley used bird shot.

Any thing else would have hit more audience than targets, even though she was by all reports a very good shot (when nothing was shooting back).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:44 PM

Like paperless offices?

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:18 PM

Remember when computers were going to give us all leisure time, gnu? All those wonderful promises in the 1950s and early 1960s about the wonderful age that will be ushered in? Grrr.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:36 PM

Since Bohr's most famous theorem related to the quantum levels of energy in the atom, I'm quite surprised that the writer of the poem could not count the syllables well enough to make it scan.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: gnu
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:05 PM

Remember those days, Don? Then, we had CADD... I loved Cadkey but AutoCad cornered the market... crap.

Put a lot of humans out of work, as puters did in most work venues.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:54 PM

When I worked at Boeing, we had to do that before they could build the airplane. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:52 PM

Man drawing.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:22 PM

I've hit the ground (I aimed at it) at 650 yards with a .22 pistol. Of course, between the time I pulled the trigger and when we saw the bullet kick up dust we took in a movie, had dinner....

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: gnu
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:01 PM

Thread creep... Back when I hunted, I used to watch the huntin shows on the TV. There was a guy who used to demo his pistol skills... like shootin a balloon and WAY to far away. Like, a 45 at 600 yards.

I always wondered if it was a ruse.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 01:45 PM

The usual police "gunfight" is at 21 feet or less (snipers are a special case). Even then, JiK is correct: with the adrenaline flowing and the juices pumped up, even the best-trained shooter can and does miss. Fortunately for the good guys, they miss less often than the bad.

However, when you factor in the general condition of the baddies arms and ammo, lack of practice, lack of training (usually), the care taken of the arms and ammo, you get a huge advantage to the good guys.

A cop,for instance, wearing body armor, can be shot several times by someone using, say, a JA380 (a cheap handgun in .380 or 9mm short or Kurz caliber). Since this weapon only reliably chambers (loads) full metal jacket bullets, any baddie trying more than one shot is liable to get a jammed gun, allowing the cop (bruised by the first shot but in no way really harmed) to use a less lethal means (Taser, baton, etc.) to subdue his prisoner if he wishes.

Of course, it's best not to draw on anyone in the first place. You can avoid a lot of trouble by following that rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:36 PM

But remember too that you must have previously practiced your "draw" sufficently to have made it a "reflex." About the only ones who have the time (or interest) in being that practiced would likely be those without any other line of work.

And the one who draws first just might have practiced enough to make every "draw" the reflexive one. (also a matter of attitude?)

Despite what one sees in the movies, very few people can actually hit much of anything with a handgun when under pressure, except by accident. It takes an incredible amount of practice to make drawing and aiming "instinctive." It's not uncommon to find reports of someone surrounded by a few dozen "cops" who fired several hundred rounds at a criminal without a single "hit."

In a "stand up and face 'em" duel, between "equals" (excluding "gun-for-hire" professional murderers) the most likely real-world result would be that they'd both empty their guns and nobody would be really likely to get hurt.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:25 PM

I probably should mention that the city had those two guys bronzed about seventy years back.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:19 PM

Of course, if you don't get the first shot off, you may not get any shot off.

The report on NPR mentioned that the research stated that the reaction to someone moving against you is more rapid because of the fear response than the stimulus is.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM

Birmingham is a bit like the Wild West anyway. It is known to have had a few high profile shootings.

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: olddude
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:01 AM

cowboys never faced off like in the movies, it was always shoot when the guy walked out of the saloon or with a rifle, there was no honor as it shows in the movies ... only documented case was Wild bill one time with a fight over his pocket watch that he lost in a poker game. Typically it was an ambush or a spur of the moment gun fight where he who aimed best won. Speed had little to do with it actually and still has little to do with it. It is who can remain cool and take aim stays alive

Subject: RE: BS: Never draw first!
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 09:45 AM

Yeah, there are two guys here still standing, each waiting for the other to draw first. They've been that way since 1883. Slowest guns in The West.

Remember the old saying, "Speed's fine, but accuracy's final." Or just use the old-fashioned way and shoot 'em in the back with a shotgun or ambush 'em with a rifle.

Subject: BS: Never draw first!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 09:38 AM

Niels Bohr, the great Nobel Prize winning quantum physicist, believed that you could draw a sixgun faster if you were drawn on first.
He used to demonstrate this to his friends with toy guns.
They wrote this about him.

On pistols and lead, now Bohr had to prove
The defendant is quickest to move.
Bohr accepted the challenge without a frown
He drew when we drew, and shot each one of us down.
This tale has a moral, tho' we knew it before.
It's foolish to question the wisdom of Bohr.

New research at the University of Birmingham (UK not Alabama) seems to prove he was right.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8493000/8493203.stm