BS: The Myth of Marja

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 09:40 PM

Yes, that's true. There is no possibility of agreement because the word "city" has a definition, and you don't seem to know what it is. What you are describing are villages and small towns at the very most, but for the most part, farmland and isolated settlements, which is not at all the same thing as "densely populated neighborhoods of the city". Even the article you are using to support your arguments doesn't agree with your definition, since they are talking about the very "closely packed streets and structures" that you say are not a part of the definition of "city" in countries like Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 09:14 PM

What a 'city' of 80,000 in western society, and one of the same size in the Afghanistan area are two different things. Pan along the eastern edge of the fields in the Marja area southeast of Nad Ali and there are many buildings and houses visible, paralleling the fields of the western irrigated district, even at the scale of the maps. These run along for several miles. Settlements are very loose with many separated compounds rather than according to the western concept of organized closely packed streets and structures.
The towns of the two irrigated areas, Nad Ali and Lashkar Gah of the eastern one and Marja of the western one, had over 100,000 population in 2005. It seems that the two are lumped together in the news reports.

There is no point in arguing further since there is no possibility of agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 05:55 PM

Q, there's no way the area you're talking about could be called, "urban". It's mostly agricultural fields with some houses located along the canals. This is the area you're talking about.

The Times in your quote described it as "densely populated neighborhoods of the city". This is the city where I live. It has slightly under 80,000 people, and it would be a stretch to try to characterize it as "densely populated", but parts of it could be called, "urban". Notice there are no agricultural fields separating the houses from each other. It's pretty much just houses and businesses with a handful of municipal parks. The area you're talking about is mostly farm fields interspersed with a small number of dwellings.

You can try to torture the language for your own purposes the way you're doing, but personally, I think it's cruel.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 05:24 PM

Poppies are good. They are the source of a pain killer used all over the world to give comfort to sick people.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 05:03 PM

Center the satellite photos at Nad Ali, the city to the northeast of the Marja area and pan to the south about 7-8 miles to Laskar Gah, and then to the southwest complex of fields and houses in the SW canal system. Looks pretty populous to me.
One hell of a lot of poppies raised there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:39 PM

Nope. Not bing. here.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:37 PM

It's in Google Maps (and presumably Google Earth) under the name of Marjeh. Or rather, there's a point on the map that's indicated as being that, but there's nothing there. I know it's the same place as Marja, because I found a satellite image of Marja in Bing, and it's the same place.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:33 PM

It's not necessarily not there. It may be just not there on Google Earth, for WHATEVER reason. Odd that I can't find it on Yahoo maps or... or...

My atlas has a Dasht-E-Margow???

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:22 PM

Exactly. It's not there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:11 PM

Easyyyyyy... I can't find squat in Google Earth. It's like it isn't there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:02 PM

By the way, did you even bother to look at the satellite images in Google maps? (They're actually photographs, you know.) Are you one of those people who believe that we never actually landed on the moon? Can you hear me through your tin foil hat?

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:00 PM

I'll take an actual photograph over a printed map or a lying propagandist any day. You can keep your fairy tales, though, if it helps you sleep at night.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 03:58 PM

The map I linked showed a canal system and the location of Marja.
The area is in the settled eastern part of the province.
I'll take the NY Times, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 02:39 PM

That quote from the Times is precisely the sort of thing I'm talking about. They're lying through their teeth, and it's easy enough to prove that just by looking at the area in Google Maps using their satellite mode. I mean, really, you can provide articles like that one all day long, but that doesn't alter the facts, which are that there are no densely populated areas in Marja, and we can see that quite plainly just by looking at the satellite images of the area. There is no "city" of Marja".

The Times is either counting on people not knowing how to use Google Maps, or they're counting on people being too stupid to be capable of critical thought.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 01:04 PM

NY Times article, 2010/03/18-
"Taliban Hit Back in Marja with a Campaign of Intimidation," Rod Norland.
Extracts-
"Though Marja has an occupation force numbering more than one coalition soldier or police officer for every eight residents, Taliban agitators have been able to wage an underground campaign of subversion, which residents say has intensified in the past two weeks."

"The new governor of Marja, Haji Abdul Zahir, said the militants were now holding meetings in randomly selected homes roughly every other night, gathering residents together and demanding that they turn over the names of anyone cooperating with the authorities."

"Mr Zahir said the Taliban also regularly issued "night letters" posted at mosques or on utility poles............. even in densely populated neighborhoods of the city, which has a population of 80,000."

Article dated March 17, 2010.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:52 PM

There are no cities anywhere near where the US military said they were waging an offensive in the city of Marja. There just aren't any cities anywhere in that area at all. They're just not there. It is, as described in the article linked in my first post, an agricultural area with small settlements scattered all around it.

I know we were told here in the US that the US military was preparing to wage, and then was waging, a big battle in a city, because I live here and that's what we were being told in the news. It's quite clearly a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:41 PM

That map of Nad Ali looks blurred, but if one prints it, it becomes clear.
Marja (Marjeh) if at the northern edge of the western system of canals shown on the map.
This is not in the heavily populated area at the eastern edge of the map, where I thought it was when I first posted. But 80,000 in the area with the canals is not unreasonable.

Nad Ali

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:35 PM

If you have a look at the same area in the Google satellite map, you can see that the map you posted is very misleading.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:24 PM

Sorry-
http://www.aims.org.af/maps/district/hilmand/nad_ali.pdf

The map shows quite a bit of settlement in the region near the river.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:21 PM

The US government isn't saying it carried on an operation in Nad Ali. They made a big deal out of Marja. But even Nad Ali couldn't under any circumstances be described as a city. It's almost too small to be called a town.

Nad Ali

I think the article in the opening post is right on the money.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:08 PM

More properly, the area should be called Nad Ali. Marja is one of the villages with bazaar. Marja has come to be the name given to area of villages near the river. The U. S. built canals to aid farming some years ago.
The map linked here shows the clusters of villages along the Hilmand (Helmand) River and its tributaries in the southeastern part of the district. The population was 105,000 in 2005, nearly all in the small SE part of the district.
Nad Ali map

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:39 PM

You can get better resolution with Google maps, although they spell it Marjeh rather than Marja...

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&source=hp&q=marjeh%2C%20afghanistan&cts=1268447222152&aql=&oq=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:34 PM

Looks like you have to click on "satellite" yourself to see the satellite version.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:33 PM

Here's a satellite map, Q. Perhaps you can show me where the "city" is...

http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/afghanistan/map/m4810338/marjah.html

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:28 PM

My last sentence referred to unincorporated cities in California.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:11 PM

There are some exaggerations in the linked article.

The figures given for Marja are 80,000 pop. and 125 sq. mi.
Pittsburgh officially has 58 sq. mi. but the Metro area is 5343 sq. mi.
[One of the problems of many American cities is that they have not incorporated the surrounding urban-suburban population, hence have a very small tax base and insufficient funds].

Calgary, Alberta, my city, has 727 sq. km or 280.5 sq. mi. It has been allowed to annex adjacent populated areas where most single-family homes and their malls are. Population about 1.1 million within the present limits, which are set to expand again soon.

The general atlas figures for Marja of 80,000-125,000 population in an area of approx. 125 sq. mi. looks pretty well-populated to me.
An area of 125 sq. mi. = about 10 x 12 miles, not very large. To a westerner, anyhow, it doesn't look 'rural'.

'Incorporation' is meaningless in some U. S. states. California has several 'cities' with fairly large populations and areas. What is an 'incorporated' city in Afghanistan? Does it exist or correspond to any of our 'official' divisions?

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:07 PM

That would be an improvement.

Subject: RE: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:06 PM

Maybe they could dispense entirely with the fighting war, and just put out press releases about fictitious battles instead. Fictitious casualties too, on both sides to make it seem more plausible. Sounds like a win-win solution. Bloodless victory.

Subject: BS: The Myth of Marja
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:52 PM

Well, this is interesting...

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=50581