BS: And yet another condom...

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 03:39 AM

"I'm suggesting that the main charge people are getting out of venting on this thread has very little to do with actually solving any existing social problem in South Africa. It has mainly to do with people getting some transitory emotional satisfaction out of imagining something really nasty happening to a rapist."

Well, that's something you imagine to be the case about others. I'll say straight up that it doesn't apply to me. I don't know about others here.

If I were in a place where there was a great deal of danger that X could happen, I'd simply do whatever I could to minimise that danger.

I don't think the Rapex is a perfect solution, but it's an option.
South-African women will have to pay their money and make their choice. I'm happy they are now able to do something to protect themselves and it'll be interesting to find out how valuable or otherwise they feel the device has been to them, in a few months or years time.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 06:24 PM

"I for one don't necessarily buy that poverty and associated 'pressures' causes a culture to normalise sexual violence against women."

Nor do I, Crow Sister, and I never said that it did. Nothing normalizes sexual violence against women in a society. It's considered a crime in every human society on Earth. Conditions of dire poverty in a nation usually lead to a great deal more violent crime, however, which can include...more rape. The formation of many armed gangs in places like Somalia, Jamaica, Haiti, and South Africa leads to a great deal more violent crime of all kinds, including rape.

How does one solve it?

Well, there are no perfect solutions, are there? There are a multiplicity of partial solutions, and there is no complete solution. Nothing we can do will EVER totally end the occurence of rape.

"A third of the male population of SA does not constitute "a few individual rapists", it constitutes an extremely high percentage of the population, ie a third."

That's absolutely right. However, you are misinterpreting the meaning of my statement to suit your own argument. what I was suggesting was that a relatively few individuals would actually get caught by that device....or by any other specific entrapment or discouragement tactic aimed against rapists. Most of them will not get caught, and they will quickly find ways to avoid getting caught as soon as the device becomes at all well known...and they will still do whatever they are inclined to do anyway.

And I'm suggesting that the main charge people are getting out of venting on this thread has very little to do with actually solving any existing social problem in South Africa. It has mainly to do with people getting some transitory emotional satisfaction out of imagining something really nasty happening to a rapist.

And I can relate to that!!! I hate the idea of rape so much that I would happily see most rapists tossed into a live volcano or ripped apart by wild dogs. Hanged. Shot. Guillotined. Drawn and quartered. Got that? In my emotional self I have utterly no mercy or sympathy for rapists.

So I feel the same way many of you do about that, probably.

But I don't expect civil laws to conform to my violent emotional reactions on such matters. The law should be decided by cooler heads, not by people in a rage following some horrible incident.

The only reason I have posted here on this thread at all is this: I do not see this device as a terribly smart or effective way to deal with rape, and if I was in government, I wouldn't rush to promote its use. Neither would I ban it. It's entirely up to the woman who wants to use it, and if she does want to...fine with me.

Ask yourself why you are posting here. What for? Why do you bother? How does it change anything? Does it give your busy mind something to chew on? I keep posting here at this point mostly just in an effort to actually be understood (a chore akin to emptying the sea with a bucket around here), and because I apparently don't have enough sense to say to myself, "Oh, the hell with it!" and go off and do something far more productive and enjoyable with my time.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 03:14 PM

"Let's just take violent revenge upon a few individual rapists,"

Intriguing interpretation.

It's not violent. There is no violence implied but that of the rapist.

I don't think 'revenge' is the motivation for the creation of the device. It physically prevents *full* sexual assault by being a physical barrier which causes pain upon attempted forced penetration. Much like barbed wire or having a guard dog does with a burglar. So there's no after the fact 'revenge'.

A third of the male population of SA does not constitute "a few individual rapists", it constitutes an extremely high percentage of the population, ie a third.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 02:06 PM

"Do you think it's because they're living in poverty and privation and reacting to the many pressures that result from such conditions?"

Difficult question without actually reviewing some comparative anthropological type study about different culture's prevailing attitudes to women and to sexual violence. Anything else can only be mere supposition - however interesting that might be to those doing the supposing ;-)

I for one don't necessarily buy that poverty and associated 'pressures' causes a culture to normalise sexual violence against women.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 01:53 PM

"In the meantime what will protect these women against rape?"

Good point, mousethief. Like I said, I am not opposed to anyone using that device if they want to. That's their decision.

I frankly don't know what can be done to immediately protect those women against rape. There are probably a lot of things that could be done...such as increasing local police patrols, for instance...but I'd have to be living there and I'd have to be very well acquainted with the daily conditions to really know exactly what to recommend in that respect.

What I am saying, mousethief, is: I, Little Hawk, do NOT have a short term solution which will end the problem of rape in South Africa. No sir. Absolutely not. If I did, it would really be something, but I don't. And nothing I say here about it is going to make a particle of difference either, and I know it. I'm talking about it merely because the subject interests me at the moment, that's all, and that goes for the rest of you too.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM

Wesley, why do you think there's an awful lot of rape occurring in Haiti? Do you think it's because they're living in poverty and privation and reacting to the many pressures that result from such conditions? Or do you have some other reason for it? Tell me. I don't think it's because male Haitians are born with an innate desire to commit rape. I don't think it's because they're Black.

I've never seen any "studies" of it, period. I don't spend my time perusing "studies" of things. I'm just using ordinary common sense. You aren't required to bow to mine or anyone else's authority here. Just state your opinions and ideas, I'll state mine, and then we'll both get to know what the other guy's opinions and ideas are, and no one has to "bow" to anyone else's knowledge.

What the fuck. Why does everything around here have to equate to "bowing to someone's knowledge"? We're just a few people talking informally about something here, like some people sitting around a table at a restaurant. No one is required to bow to anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM

I guess we'll have to wait and see what South-African women have to say about the device and whether or not they find it useful. However I can imagine it being made illegal in this country. There is also the issue of 'virginity'. Inserting something like that, would I imagine, break the hymen. Unfortunately there is still a hell of a lot of superstitious bullshit associated to an intact hymen - and of course female virginity (despite the fact that the two things are not identical) - in many places.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 01:39 PM

I think the problem, LH, isn't that people don't want to address the big, societal issues. They do. But societal changes are glacial. In the meantime what will protect these women against rape?

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 01:32 PM

I might add that Dr. Sonnet Ehler of South Africa who invented the Rape-Axe device no doubt has the best of intentions....

I'm not opposed to her efforts. I don't particularly object to the basic idea. I don't mind if they market the devices to women who want to use them to deter rape.

Fine with me.

But it doesn't strike me as a very good solution to the problem of reducing the incidence of rape and associated violence in South Africa. It seems a bit naive to me to imagine that such a device will alter the situation significantly or that it won't further endanger some of the women who would choose to employ the device.

So I was suggesting some other ways of possibly reducing the number of rapes that are occurring in that society by attacking not the potential rapist himself....but the huge social problems that exist all around the potential rapist.

That would mean looking at the big picture, and the big picture is far more complicated, isn't it? And I guess that's why people would rather just focus on the one specific thing they are upset about at the moment...the crime. They can grasp that so easily...and they can come up with an instantaneous emotional response to it. Cave man stuff. Anyone can master it in an instant. Why not just send Rambo over there, and he can kill all the rapists in South Africa...one - by - one. It would take a hell of a long time to kill them all, of course, and there would always be new ones coming along for him to kill, which would make it a sort of endless job....but JUST THINK of the emotional satisfaction we'll all get (sitting in our comfy armchairs here) as he blows them away!

Ooow-weee! Great idea for a movie, eh?   Why can't we just solve all our social problems this way?

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 01:18 PM

It's just that I've never seen any studies linking poverty to rape. Perhaps you have. If so I bow to your knowledge of the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM

I'm not specifically blaming the one crime of rape on poverty, Wesley. Rape occurs for many reasons, and is not just done by the poor.

I'm saying that South Africa is a country beset with extreme poverty, and that extreme poverty results in a great deal of violent crime in a general sense. Period. Rape is one among many different types of violent crimes. Yes, it has to do with control and domination....meaning: the assertion of personal power. People who are living in poverty generally feel powerless and frustrated. The more aggressive individuals react to their feelings of powerlessness and frustration by striking out in various ways at other people...or other people's property. They might commit robberies, they might simply engage in domestic family violence, they might riot, or they might rape someone....that depends on their individual psychological makeup, doesn't it?

Of course it is true that rich people sometimes rape too! (Duh!) But that was not my point. My point was that poverty increases the incidence of all violent crimes....NOT that poverty is the one and only source of violent crimes.

Another place where you see poverty and desperation leading to a great deal of rape, robbery, murder, and other forms of violent crime right now is Haiti. Same basic problem....terrible poverty, greatly exacerbated by the recent earthquake and the devastation that followed it.

If you resist the tendency to interpret whatever I am saying in an "all or nothing" fashion, then you will understand what I am saying, which is simply that a society beset with great poverty is normally a society with a much higher violent crime rate than a society which is not beset with great poverty.

And the longterm solution is to improve that society by raising the standard of living, improving public education, providing employment and good wages for people, improving public health care, etc...

The long way. The hard way. The intelligent way. The only REAL way to fix the problem.

That would require idealism and the highest of intentions at the top levels of leadership in that society, wouldn't it? It would also require the expenditure of a great deal of public money in improving social infrastructure.

Awww, gee.....but that's too difficult! It would take a long time and a great deal of effort. It would require the rich giving away some of their money to the poor. Naw. Let's just take violent revenge upon a few individual rapists, and then we'll feel so much better, and it'll hardly cost us anything! ;-) In fact...we can make some MONEY selling some $2 condoms to local girls (and $2 is probably a fair bit of money in South Africa these days). Bonus!

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 04:26 AM

"I honestly don't see very many women walking around with that inside her...."

I do.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 01:29 AM

Another thing....is a woman just suppose to say just a moment sir...I need to insert this in me....ok now you can rape me. I honestly don't see very many women walking around with that inside her....

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM

Even rich people rape :-(

mp

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 06:47 PM

Little Hawk - you can't blame rape on poverty. It's about control and domination. Improving the economy isn't going to make rape go away.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

Richard I respect that lawyers have to do their best for their clients and that due process has to be given. Can you imagine that some would not try and make a defence that their client had suffered injury in order to try and reduce any subsequent charges/sentence?

Look at what rape victims are put through now. I am sorry if my comments are erroneous or cause offence but I can only go on some of the cases where actions are brought against victims of crime by other (the Police, CPS and defedants). If I am totally wrong then I would stand very happy to be corrected.

Forgive my generalisations therefore. You are far more educated than I in this area. It could never happen then?

Sorry for any offence once again. As such a thing has not thus far happened with such a device then only an assumption, maybe a presumption, lead my thinking.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM

An old motif realized.

Not A Good Idea. There would be no proof that rape had been attempted.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 06:21 PM

No, I meant AFTER a trial.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 06:19 PM

Yeah, I can see far too many undesired results stemming from use of this device, particularly in as violent a society as South Africa is at the present time. Reprisals would very likely be taken on the woman by the rapist's brothers, cousins, friends, and fellow perpetrators and gang members, and those reprisals would quite likely be fatal in many cases.

You can't overcome this sort of thing by simply striking back at the lowest possible level of human behaviour. You have to reform a whole society gradually to make its general public more secure so that such violence lessens, and that means addressing all kinds of widespread financial and social issues, not just focusing on the specific individuals who commit violent acts. In a society where the average person is better educated, better housed, happier, and has more financial security than is presently the case in South Africa, the incidence of that sort of crime goes way down.

What's the number one cause of violent crime in the world?   Poverty. When people are desperate, they turn to desperate acts. That's why, for example, Somalia has become a haven for modern day piracy...it appears to be the best way to earn a living in that country at the present time, and millions of people there are in desperate poverty. I bet there's a huge amount of rape in Somalia too.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 06:01 PM

I think, mauvie, you should see a lawyer before making assumptions of that kind.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: gnu
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 02:37 PM

Reading the posts, my thoughts of "GREAT!" were dashed. So sad.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 01:22 PM

Yes - Someone could easliy say it was entrapment on the womans part. I hadn't thought of that.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 12:55 PM

Another thing also comes to mind that in our mad mad world of law, solicitors and damages, were such a device to be used in the UK, say, then the person most likely seen to be the perpetrator would be the poor victim and she would be liable to pay damages to the offender for any trauma caused! No doubt she would be arrested for some sort of assault on her assailant as what seems to happen in a great many cases when people defend themselves in any way possible against criminals here.

It would be good to think the Home Office, the Police and the CPS would give full sanction for these condoms to be used (almost a stamp of approval) and thereby give complete and total immunity to any woman wearing one.

But. again, it would not be long before women were being accused of enticing men to have intercourse so they could get the man back for some past indiscretion or hurt....

Sad world indeed :-(

mp

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 12:09 PM

Lorena Bobbitt comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 11:44 AM

I have no problem with letting the raped punish the rapist.

If that were guaranteed to happen with this device, I would agree wholeheartedly. But as has been explained, it's too likely to backfire.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 11:41 AM

Rape is about violence and control. There is no easy way to stop it, but I have no problem with letting the raped punish the rapist.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM

The problem with this device (although I applaud the thought of giving the rapist the what-for) is that once its existence is known (i.e. now), rapists will just check for it (possibly in very unsavoury ways) and remove it if necessary.

And unfortunately even barring that, it only works AFTER the penetration has occurred. It doesn't stop rape. It just punishes it.

Sadly I don't think there is an easy way to stop rape.

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 10:16 AM

The exremely sad and disturbing piece of information in that article is that a young African woman has more chance of being raped than she has of learning to read.

What a sad indictment on mankind :-(

mp

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 09:57 AM

Wesley,
According to the article the rapist is completely incapacitated. Gang rape might lead to the victim being beaten or killed once rapist # 1 starting screaming.
What a sad world we live in.
M

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM

I dont think I would have ANY concern for a rapist !

Subject: RE: BS: And yet another condom...
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 08:56 AM

My concern is that the victim could get killed as a result. Of course they face that risk anyway.

Subject: BS: And yet another condom...
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 08:21 AM

OUCH!
http://www.thegrio.com/news/anti-rape-condoms-with-teeth-make-debut-at-world-cup.php


Finally, someone is taking rape prevention seriously.