BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:16 PM

D-u-u-hhh!!! Being progressive or not has nothing to do with it!..Jeez!
that was BEFORE the coup, as I mentioned on another post. You'd do well to pretend not to read it,.......... again!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:54 PM

And just to be sure that America would not take a turn away from militarism, both Bobby Kennedy, who would have been elected president in 1968, and Dr. King were also mysteriously assassinated...

As a progressive, I know in my heart that this country would be a much better country had these men lived...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:07 PM

Dead, spot on, Hawk!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:01 PM

Well, they're not serving the public interest, that's why. They're serving their major sources of funding, in my opinion, and I'm not talking about taxes. I'm talking about a government that's in the hands of a wealthy elite, and does whatever that wealthy elite wants done, period. The same thing happens in Canada, the UK, etc. The public is not in charge of the situation. Elections are a phony PR exercise whose intent is to give the public the very false impression that they are briefly in charge of the situation...on one day: election day. The moment election day is over, though, the public is once again not in charge...because the people they voted in do not work FOR the public. They work for the wealthy elite which funds the election campaigns and owns the mass media, not to mention the military-industrial complex. The public are peasants. Serfs. Worker bees. And their jobs are vanishing to places like China, Mexico, and India.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:55 PM

I expect the market to fall, at least around 10% more, and soon, if not sooner!
Only 24% of Americans as of today, approve of our Congress, and Senate. a majority of Americans, now (finally) disapprove of Obama!
They all suck!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:36 AM

Well Richard, I saw your quote and dug it.... problem is, a lot of politically biased people see stuff through their rose colored 'political glasses', instead of an objectivity, for truth, or history. Those same people interject 'purposed policies' over science or truth, and argue a blue streak, that the lie is really truth, as long as it is consistent with furthering any nonsensical political folly!....and good Lord, Mudcat has quite a few of those! The best thing that one can do, is just keep telling the truth..eventually time will bear one out!....and yet still they'll argue silliness, until they crash and burn. All you can hope for is that one or two reader's lights go on, and their music might get more honest, while they take a closer look at 'paying attention to detail'.......plus, make an extra effort to pop their heads out of their asses!
BTW, Thanks for the Kennedy quote!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:33 AM

Interestingly, I posted that Kennedy quote (about revolution) on another forum and someone riposted "What did Kennedy ever do for the USA". So he's not everyone's hero.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:27 PM

I tend to agree. The death of John Kennedy was the end of the old America and the beginning of an exceedingly dark era. The country has never recovered from what happened that day. Eisenhower warned what could happen in his final speech to the nation, Kennedy tried to stop it from happening, and Kennedy died. The military-industrial complex has had what it wants ever since...and the country is now effectively bankrupt.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:48 PM

Aww, that is just a load of bull-crap, hoping to end any further investigation, that would uncover the truth!..(sounds like today, huh?)

Also, most of our problems today, got their beginnings with his end....should I enumerated them?..or do you know?
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:17 PM

"It was fucked up since the coup, which was finalized on November 22, 1963, Dallas."

Nice to meet someone else who doesn't buy into the Warren Commission Report.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 06:36 PM

During the campaign, Obama PROMISED to 'service the budget deficit', 'have a balanced budget', and 'curb spending' and 'work with both sides of the aisle' and 'end gridlock'....

judging from his performance record, and what just happened, I'd say its just a bunch of BLAB..what would you call it??
Wait a minute, don't tell me....I already read the Democratic blabbing points...OH wait!!..It was the 'Tea Party'!....who didn't even exist back then!
One more thing of note: The Tea party came into being, because Washington was all fucked up..they didn't fuck up Washington!..and it was all fucked up BEFORE the 'Blabbing One' came into the Presidency..Fair enough?
It was fucked up since the coup, which was finalized on November 22, 1963, Dallas.
Even MORE fair enough???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:51 PM

VERY mature.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:37 PM

'Oblabbo', best describes his policies(?), and his adherence to his 'promises'!...or have you been blabbing so much that you never noticed?!??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:47 AM

"Oblabbo" very mature.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:57 PM

Well, SOMEBODY had to do it!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:44 PM

Friends like these

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:35 PM

I don't think that we are in disagreement, at all, in this one. I was just adding the thought, that certain 'connivers' can excel at very stupid things, and cunningly move forward, toward dangerously harmful agendas...Case in point: All the bloated borrowing, with pork attached!

By the way, in my earlier post, I mentioned Medicare. I was not attacking the program, or the need for it...what I was attacking was Obama-care's need to gut it, when I think it may have been better to keep it, expand it, but clean it up!...that is, the fraud in it, and the bloated, inefficient bureaucracy of its administration of it...up to, and including doctors, insurance companies, hospitals and patients...oh yeah, and lawyers, too!

Funny, nobody is yakking about the stock market today....or how it plummeted even further during and after Oblabbo's 'speech' to the nation! It seems now apparent, that both sides are admitting that the emperor has no clothes!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:47 PM

Should be

As Don said...

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:45 PM

Are they idiots?

Though a small part of the definition fits, "acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way." With regard to the other part "is a mentally deficient person," I think not. As Don, that thought, while comforting, could lead to a dangerous underestimation.

Dangerous, short sighted zealot, might be a more apt description.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:37 PM

Don: "If they were idiots, they would be easy enough to outsmart. Don't underestimate them. They know what they are doing in the same way a cunning and predatory animal knows what it's doing.
That's the key. They're predators."

...and due respects, in return. Would you be willing to differentiate between 'smart' and 'cunning'?..as in, 'one could be very cunning, at doing stupid things?'.

I think we can find common ground on that one....and even eek out a grin.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:35 PM

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable." JFK

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:47 PM

Yup...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:35 PM

The US has been so-called outsourcing jobs, buying Chinese shit called consumer goods, sticking its nose in everyone's business, giving tax breaks to people who have more fucking money than Carter had liver pills, firing rockets that cost a million bucks each, planes that cost way more than that, bailing out crooked bastards who ripped off pensions and people's houses, and the US wonders why it's broke? Get a clue. Keriste.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:59 AM

Here's the latest column from Eric Margolis, regarding the Debt Limit. Interesting reading as always:

US Ready to Fight to its Last IOU

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 10:45 PM

"We can never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal." It was "illegal" to aid and comfort a Jew in Hitler's Germany. But I am sure that if I had lived in Germany during that time, I would have aided and comforted my Jewish brothers even though it was illegal. If I lived in a Communist country today where certain principles dear to the Christian faith are suppressed, I believe I would openly advocate disobeying these anti-religious laws ..."

August 1963
Letter from Birmingham Jail
by Martin Luther King Jr.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 07:58 PM

With all due respect, GfS, I would make one small, but all important correction.

"...and they ALL fell, miserably, and from Europe our forefathers fled, and attempted to start a free country, where the individual was sovereign...but alas, the idiots keep popping up, trying to take us back down, and repeat the same bullshit..."

If they were idiots, they would be easy enough to outsmart. Don't underestimate them. They know what they are doing in the same way a cunning and predatory animal knows what it's doing.

That's the key. They're predators.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 07:54 PM

...and ain't no Excedrin gonna fix it, Jack... These radicals need to go back to being millionaires outside of Congress...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 07:42 PM

The self inflicted gunshot wound that the Tea Party has inflicted on this country is giving me a headache.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 07:36 PM

Right now we have two patients in the waiting room... One has a gun shot wound and the other a sinus headache... The Tea Party is the gun shot wound and no matter how the smoke clears we gotta get them outta office before they finish the job that bib Laden started...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 04:39 PM

P.S. Strings, If ever there was a time for 'folk singers' to address the hopes and spirit of the human condition, NOW would be as great as a time, as ever!....But first, they need to rise above the fray, manufactured for us, put their finger on the pulse, and get down to it!
I KNOW you KNOW what I'm talking about....you've been there!..and for that, hats off!



...then there is that spiritual matter, that makes it all fall into place.....ask Seeger, Dylan, Rose, and other ground breakers who were a notch above the mundane!

Regardless, Hats off!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 04:29 PM

Strings, I'd have to agree with you, but I'd take it a step even further..it seems the goals of the globalist bankers, through the parties, is to destroy everyone, like a circular firing squad, just to get their crap enacted...which of course, is not in anyone's best interests, except their own. Their goals are global, and would throw us all under the bus, as soon as their done using us...and using us up!. That's one reason why I can't stand all this partisan bickering, while letting the real culprits get away with murder! ...(figuratively, and literally!).....and like lemmings we''re doing it on here, as well. If I point that out, when the left is being criticized, they get all snotty, and nasty...when the 'right' thinks I'm attacking them, THEY get all snotty and nasty, as well...when after all, as you have pointed out, I have pointed out, Little Hawk has pointed out, among others, this is a massive bullshit propaganda/Psychological warfare effort, of deception to ever have come down the pike!..or is it pipe?
Real issues are only used to arouse possible support bases, then tossed aside, for policies NEITHER side is in favor of...except those of the globalist, international bankers, and their minions! Meanwhile, the country gets thrown under the bus, and while 'right' and 'left' bicker, on 'whose fault is 'was/is/going to be'! Those, who caused the mess, in the first place, just skip and frolic away, looking for their next target to zoom in on!
Look how they completely deceived the 'left' about Obama! Look how Fox keeps the divide active! Look at the other 'news' sources fail to pick up any depth to their stories!....Look how folks just lap it up!

Regards Strings!
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 02:20 PM

1. The Tea Party's goal is to destroy Obama's presidency.
2.   To capitulate to them is to inflict self wounds.
3.   The Republican Party is dominated by the Tea Party
4.   The answer would have been for Obama to claim the 14th Amendment.
(Could a closet Republican do this?)

Wall Street is still lurking around the corner. Who will they pick? A Tea Party Republican or a closet Republican?

Wall Street is the new Hotel California. "Check out and can never leave".

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 01:58 PM

Donuel: "The wealth distribution goes beyond what Rome did. It is reminiscent of certain Monarchies."

...and they ALL fell, miserably, and from Europe our forefathers fled, and attempted to start a free country, where the individual was sovereign...but alas, the idiots keep popping up, trying to take us back down, and repeat the same bullshit...except instead of Kings, and Dukes, we have CEO's and Presidents...oh, and blind subjects, too!

GfS

P.S. I'm going to go over your post again...I did cut short my response. we just may be in more agreement, than not....gotta' check!

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 01:09 PM

For example the right has been yelling CLASS WARFARE !!!

Can't possibly be- the Right Wing Nutjobs and the Tea Potty have steadfastly maintained for decades that ythe U. S. of A. is a CLASSLESS SOCIETY!

Aintcha been payin attenshun?

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 12:11 PM

You read!!!!
GfS's long winded, punctuation laden, posts!!???

Good on you sir!!

I admire your patience!!!

Your fortitude!!!!

Your guts!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 12:07 PM

Gfs I wrote the reasons and the context for that statement.
You must have skimmed over it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 11:20 AM

The ANTI FEDERAL GOVERNMENT tirade comes from either people who are uninformed or from Corporate think tanks who strive to destroy all regulatory agencies that don;t allow them them to poison America with impunity. After 10 years of shrinking and dumbing down agencies with political appointees the corporations have helped Wall St. degulations, enough to poison the financial world, and the EPA to turn its head when it comes to fracking. Katrina showed how FEMA was hobbled in as little as 4 years.

What government does not do is toot thier own horn. The Computer was an invention by government research grants that gave away its invention to the world. Most of the life saving drugs for diseases come from the NIH but if you watch the discovery channel it would seem like the March of DImes accomplished all this discoveries. Under Republican government the corporate control of Congress and its media channel has enabled business to have historic highest profits ever recorded. Perhaps you did not know this since trickle down be damned is what is happening.

The social safety net is what prevents the 39% of the population from abject starvation. There are over 15 million food stamp folks out here.
There are enough armed militia/insurrection groups here to do great harm to the country. Without thier government checks they would quickly bite the hand that fed them. http://www.knobcreekrange.com/   has more than small arms to try.

I do worry that we are just one assisination or several doemstic terrorist attacks away from anarchy. The wealthy do think about this and have put many police state tactics and weaponry programs on the front burner to defend themselves. The super wealthy just fly to France.

Government is us only when we devote and risk our lives to its life saving possibilities.

The attack rhetoric from the rich comes out a year ahead of the emerging outrage and the response from the left is always defensive and a day late. For example the right has been yelling CLASS WARFARE !!! for a couple years now.   HELP THE WEALTH HAS BEEN REDISTRIBUTED   !!!!    by who?   Our eyes say its the rich who are guilty of both

but the words oft repeated say its the poor, the left, the socialists, its OBAMA.

If you dare believe your eyes it ain't us.

but it should be.


The wealth distribution goes beyond what Rome did. It is reminiscent of certain Monarchies.


Class war? Is there any hope that COngress will change enough to wage the war with new policy instead of blow back and bullets?

I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 10:25 AM

I realize that some conservatives don't trust Snopes...

I don't think real conservatives - at least those with a brain- "don't trust snopes".

The same ignorant clowns that believe Faux News bullshit are the ones that are in denial about Snopes - which is no surprise, since they're in denial about truth in general and operate in a fact-free environment. And they're proud of it.

vide- among others - the book Idiot America: How Stupidity Became a Virtue in the Land of the Free.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 06:01 AM

Correction in previous post: Delete the other one, please.


Joe: "Sanity, I took you to be a pretty smart person. I'm surprised that you would post one of these bogus Internet tirades without checking its veracity. Why perpetuate lies like these?"

I made no claim, one way or another, as to its 'accuracy' or 'inaccuracy', nor, as you know, nor I did not add my usual 'GfS' at the bottom of the post(conscientiously). ...and If you would have read my previous posts, (which I'm sure you have, and for some while), a HUGE part of what I've been saying, is that Americans are polarized, and turning against each other, though deception.
To say, that the whole letter is ALL wrong, I don't particularly agree with, either...but, as you pointed out, Joe:"...Why invest money just so you have to borrow more?" seems to be consistent, with being AGAINST, the 'theory' of passing any number of so-called 'stimulus', bills, does it not?.....and speaking of which, where is that 'stimulus' money' going..or ending up? Is it not true, that 'interest' on all this 'borrowing' is far more than even, our defense budget? As I've contended, again, in previous posts, that our so called 'representatives' are acting more like 'brokers' for laws, and those laws, (with a sugar coated 'logic' to enact them), ALL cost more BORROWED money...and who benefits from that BORROWED money?...the people, to whom case was made to appeal to?...or, the people who push to be able to 'loan' MORE money, so they can make more 'profit' from the interest???...And, whose programs cost exorbitant, amounts of money to 'administer' with all the overhead built-in bureaucracy, that even more needs to be borrowed, to finally get 'help' to the very people who it was supposed to benefit, in the first place?...Case in point: Medicare! Plus add in the fraud, which runs in at about 1/3 of inflating the costs, of the actual benefits! THEN they want to bitch and moan, when, on either side of the coin..when they want to cut Medicare?? ....and to add insult to injury, cut Medicare, to make way for the new, Health(?)Care bill...the offer waivers, to certain states (and political donors),who would vote for that convoluted piece of shit!!..MOST of whom admittedly NEVER even read it!!! In other words, "OK, I'll give you MY vote, but don't include ME or MY voters, especially MY donors in any of it!"..What kind of poppycock is that???
I think that is more of the gist of the angst behind the letter. Same could be said, about the added burden of the 'stimulus' plans.
AND who gets screwed if we go 'belly up' from the reckless spending? The Saudis, when we renege on our deal with them to buy their oil, if they buy and back our bonds...as soon as the price of oil goes up high enough that we drill our own??(Which plan is in the works, BTW)...The Chinese??, who the globalists invested heavy into for cheap labor and high profits, at the expense of our jobs,.. or us, who own 60-65% of our own national debt, through our investments of our own bonds??? I say, the people who are running stuff behind the scenes, DON'T give a hoot, as long as they make their profits, get their power, and aren't revealed, as to who the are, what they've done, and what they plan to do...regardless of your(our)rights, and/or our sovereignty as a country!!! What we are witnessing, and in 'progress' is the selling out of the U.S.A. to the highest bidder, to line the pockets of these vultures, while the politicians facilitate it, for a piece of the action!!
(Jeez! I'm sounding more like a extreme 'Progressive' than some of the so-called acknowledged 'Progressives' on here!!...and I'm not! I only want us to have an honest debate, within an honest government. What a dreamer!!)
I think, whether it's taxes, OR interest rates that gets raised, especially on an artificially inflated dollar, when the economy is sucking square eggs, it won't matter a hill of beans when the house is foreclosed on, and/or folks go under, people who worked hard, and hoped all their lives, to get it!..and did so, thinking that the goals weren't going to be moved...by the value of the dollar being criminally messed with, as a means of bilking the American public of everything, they can get their greedy little hands on! Am I talking about legislators??..or bankers, who get the 'broker/representatives' to do their bidding for them? It DOESN'T MATTER...the 'fix is in', and as long as the debate centers on the topic, of 'which party is at fault', the REAL issue, and culprits never seem to be addressed..or prosecuted...and the 'can just gets kicked down the road', and the problem never fixed!...intentionally!!! (I wonder just how long the debt limit deal was already figured out, BEFORE we HAD to accept it, as a panic driven 'emergency compromise'???...that NOBODY seems to like, or want!!... Ever wonder that, yourself???).
And who gets squeezed??.. the mega-international globalists, hiding behind falsely portrayed 'causes' which they initiate and back?...The small business owner, in competition with the big corporations?(and the backbone of actual wealth, employment and taxes)?...the bankers, who hold the 'stimulus' money?? ..It is you, and me, and the 'common folk' who are being squeezed, and sucked dry, for their short-sighted 'grab-fest'. Would you not agree?
   You might even get a 'return' on you stocks, that LOSE actual value, in buying power, if the rate of inflation and increasing interest, wipes out any real dividend....though you might show 'higher' numbers!..and I think you know(or should) that...just look at the 401's and IRA accounts!..It was all bullshit, and a scam from the beginning....which I told people(before I came on here), to artificially bolster up the sagging stock market and economy....LONG before this administration got the blame! I believe it was under Daddy 'Read My Lips' Bush.
   
   I could go on, commenting on some of your additional comments, both pro and con, but I'm not wanting to make a huge post, out of it....but I can,(wink!).
   In closing,(this part), I'm not affirming or particularly defending the letter...and at the very beginning, of that post, I clearly stated, that I "Just got this:"....some of which is correct, some political rhetoric, some just plain agitation, but what is true in it should not be tossed out, just because it either agrees or disagrees with a 'party' stand. Frankly, I'm mega sick of hearing party lies, for either side...and what is really sad, is to see the damage it's done and is doing, while the 'perps' get away with 'slight of hand'. Just as bad, is seeing musicians and composers, people who could have potential influence, DOA, and rendered irrelevant, by adopting their propaganda!!....either 'side'(?)!!
Again, Fair enough?..Correct me, if I'm wrong.

Regards,

GfS
Fair enough?

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 01:51 AM

Yeah, I think we should pick apart that fraudulent chain letter Sanity posted. It's full of untruths and anachronisms. Here's a copy, with my responses in bold

1. As a career politician, you have been on the public dole for FIFTY YEARS.
How many members of Congress have been employed fifty years? Not many, nowadays. Click here for a list of Senators and Representatives who have served over 36 years. The lists include fourteen currently serving members, and thirteen former members who are still alive.

2. I have been paying Social Security taxes for 48 YEARS (since I was 15 years old...)
And Members of Congress have been paying the MAXIMUM Social Security taxes, unless they happen to have served continuously since 1984. That's when the law changed and Members of Congress had to start paying Social Security, in addition to the contributions they make to their retirement fund. And those pre-1984 Members of Congress and federal employees get a significant reduction in Social Security benefits for the time they were exempt from paying Social Security.

3 My Social Security payments, and those of millions of other Americans, were safely tucked away in an interest bearing account for decades until you political pukes decided to raid the account and give OUR money to a bunch of zero ambition losers in return for votes, thus bankrupting the system and turning Social Security into a Ponzi scheme that would have made Bernie Madoff proud.
That never happened. Social Security funds have always been used for benefits or lent to the government in lieu of having the government borrow money at higher rates. Attempts to "privatize" Social Security and invest the money in stocks have always failed, because they just don't make sense. Why invest money just so you have to borrow more?

4. Recently, just like Lucy & Charlie Brown, you and your ilk pulled the proverbial football away from millions of American seniors nearing retirement and moved the goalposts for full retirement from age 65 to age 67. NOW, you and your shill commission is proposing to move the goalposts YET AGAIN.
Yes, the age for full retirement has gone up, and so has the life expectancy of Americans. There may have been a proposal to raise the retirement age at the time this e-mail was first sent, but I think that's been done already. Employers have had to reduce pension benefits for the same reason.

5 I, and millions of other Americans, have been paying into Medicare from Day One, and now you morons propose to change the rules of the game.. Why? Because you idiots mismanaged other parts of the economy to such an extent that you need to steal money from Medicare to pay the bills..
Members of Congress pay into Medicare at the same rate you pay.

6. I, and millions of other Americans, have been paying income taxes our entire lives, and now you propose to increase our taxes yet again. Why? Because you incompetent bastards spent our money so profligately that you just kept on spending even after you ran out of money. Now, you come to the American taxpayers and say you need more to pay off YOUR debt.
My understanding is that income taxes take a much lower proportion of the Gross National Product than they did in 1970.

To add insult to injury, you label us "greedy" for calling "bullshit" on your incompetence. Well, Captain Bullshit, I have a few questions for YOU.
Don't recall too many Members of Congress calling their voters "greedy." That would be really, really poor public relations, and a sure way not to get reelected.

1. How much money have you earned from the American taxpayers during your pathetic 50-year political career?
About as much as most mid-level managers, and rarely for a 50-year career.

2. At what age did you retire from your pathetic political career, and how much are you receiving in annual retirement benefits from the American taxpayers?
Some Members of Congress have worked until they were past 90, and could not draw a Federal pension until after they stopped working. Many have worked well past the age of 70, if their constituents (freely) chose to reelect them.

3. How much do you pay for YOUR government provided health insurance?
Somewhere in the neighborhood of $500-$700 a month.

4. What cuts in YOUR retirement and healthcare benefits are you proposing in your disgusting deficit reduction proposal, or, as usual, have you exempted yourself and your political cronies?
The same cuts federal employees get, which are more-or-less the same as cuts in other employer-provided programs where employees pay a significant part of the cost of insurance. Members of Congress have had an increase in what they pay for health insurance almost every year over at least the last fifty years.

It is you, Captain Bullshit, and your political co-conspirators called Congress who are the "greedy" ones. It is you and your fellow nutcases who have bankrupted America and stolen the American dream from millions of loyal, patriotic taxpayers. And for what? Votes. That's right, sir. You and yours have bankrupted America for the sole purpose of advancing your pathetic political careers. You know it, we know it, and you know that we know it.
Well, yes, Members of Congress DO work for the people who work for them, but they tend to think that going into bankruptcy is political suicide. The government of the United States does not intend to file bankruptcy. In fact, we still have a very good credit rating even in this terrible economy.

And you can take that to the bank, you miserable son of a bitch.

This would change everything and should be retroactive!
Well, most of the misconceptions on your list are untrue, or were changed decades ago.

No one has been able to explain why young men and women serve in the U.S. Military for 20 years, risking their lives protecting freedom, and only get 50% of their pay. While politicians hold their political positions in the safe confines of the capital, protected by these same men and women, and receive full pay retirement after serving one term. It just does not make any sense.
A Member of Congress who served 25 years, would receive 1/3 of his salary beginning when he/she reaches the age of 62. Don't know the stats for those who serve fewer years.


On Fox news they learned that the staffers of Congress family members are exempt from having to pay back student loans. This will get national attention if other news networks will broadcast it. When you add this to the below, just where will all of it stop?
Don't know about this, but Snopes says it isn't true.

35 States file lawsuit against the Federal Government

Governors of 35 states have filed suit against the Federal Government for imposing unlawful burdens upon them. It only takes 38 (of the 50) States to convene a Constitutional Convention.
So far, nobody has convened a Constitutional Convention. Filing a lawsuit is a much easier procedure. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't.


This will take less than thirty seconds to read. If you agree, please pass it on.

This is an idea that we should address.

For too long we have been too complacent about the workings of Congress. Many citizens had no idea that members of Congress could retire with the same pay after only one term, that they specifically exempted themselves from many of the laws they have passed (such as being exempt from any fear of prosecution for sexual harassment) while ordinary citizens must live under those laws. The latest is to exempt themselves from the Healthcare Reform.... in all of its forms. Somehow, that doesn't seem logical. We do not have an elite that is above the law. I truly don't care if they are Democrat, Republican, Independent or whatever. The self-serving must stop.
Most of this is untrue.

If each person that receives this will forward it on to 20 people, in three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message... This is one proposal that really should be passed around.

Proposed 28th Amendment to the United States Constitution: "Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States that does not apply equally to the Senators and/or Representatives; and, Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators and/or Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the United States ."

---

I realize that some conservatives don't trust Snopes, so I've answered almost all of these things from my personal experience of 25 years as an investigator for the U.S. Office of Personnel Management, the agency that administers benefits for Federal employees and retirees.
Sanity, I took you to be a pretty smart person. I'm surprised that you would post one of these bogus Internet tirades without checking its veracity. Why perpetuate lies like these?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 11:03 PM

GfS, fyi, Snopes had a few things to add to your post of

06 Aug 11 - 03:54 PM

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 10:56 PM

Donuel: "What does bring down these politicians is the same thing that brings down evangelical preachers, they have to be caught STEALING the faithful member's money and or land."

Hasn't there been enough evidence to call a spade 'a spade' when you see it happening? I think the evidence is overwhelming, as the evidence of their overwhelming ability to come up with 'new reasons' why it's "OK!" ....and then gather biased followers, that keep telling people "It's not..look over here!"...pointing at the 'other party'!!....or over here...or there.....certainly not to where the 'money trail' is heading, and lands up!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 09:19 PM

Joe, I hope you notice that you and I are talking about the same things.

From my experience as hypnotist I see the devolution of America with programing people to despise the goodness in our country and swoon for the stupid, banal people/argumments/suggestions pouring from banal personalaities on radio and TV. People have litterally voted against thier own existence. They stay in line to drink the Kool Aid and take the showers.

The media is the message. This means more than we might think it means.

While there is hope that some will finally begin to see through the tea party brown shirts, I remind you that the most damaged who fail to understand thier "Bush" programming, will become the first to volunteer to be the secret police to harm thier peacful neighbors if called upon to do so. It gives them a feeling of purpose, power and protection by religious and ideological authorites.

They damn well will cling to thier guns and bibles. Yes this is not new, George Washington even complained of the dangers of theocratic attacks on Federal authority in a letter to his English friend.


When we carry on about how stupid a statement by Palin or Bachmann is, we forget that the people who do not know even as much as Sarah of Michelle, feel the familiar attack because they too have been made fun of for thier own stupid remarks.

Stupidity, hypocrisy and even lieing are not negative factors for the right wing base. In fact they are bonding points of mutual experience. What does bring down these politicians is the same thing that brings down evangelical preachers, they have to be caught STEALING the faithful member's money and or land.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 08:48 PM

_________________________________________________________




Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 04:41 PM

Gold will decline tommorrow

Standard and Poor's will downgrade US to AA+ this month.
Insiders say "It's baked in"




________________________________________________________


Gee good one Don, you hit it exactly on the head. You somtimes claim unique insights and knowledge but facts and proof of correct projections over 12 years of time stamped claims is impressive.

Gee thanks DOn.

Sometimes I try to dumb things down so those who do not spend countless hours of research can glimps certain events more clearly.
However if people do not know who the players are and how the controlling board of a stock exchange can influence trades, a reader would easily miss the point. Sorry Jack I failed to communicate effectively enough for you to get it.
The microcosm of the few contributors here losing themselves in facitional detail of thier own making reminds me of the exasperation that Barak feels daily.













The big picture or the central goal of policy in America is being destroyed from within by absurd claims and tunnel vision. The Republican pollster LUntz show us the epitome of foolish attention to detail instead of our big goals that he gives people a dial which they are told to turn huigher with agreement and down for disagreement. They wire up a crowd and measure thier response in microseconds.


Believe me, winning an argument with a tenth of a second approval rise is meaningless and the pinacle of nonsense. As Dyson says " I learned that 58% of COngress is composed of people who stucy law and construct thier thoughts by means of arguing as in a debate contest, where you do not even know which side of the proposition you are to argue until the moderator announces it.

Getting to our goal as a people united has little to do witht he argument process at all. As a result The Common Good   is today amazingly uncommon.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 06:58 PM

Alan Simpson was a horse's ass when he was in Congress and like they say, "Folks don't change, they get more so..."

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 06:32 PM

Wyoming Republican Alan Simpson

So Obama is responsible for what Republicans say?

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:54 PM

Just got this:



"Alan Simpson, ex-Senator from Wyoming , Co-Chair of Obama's deficit commission, calls senior citizens the Greediest Generation as he compared "Social Security" to a Milk Cow with 310 million teats. August, 2010.

Here's a response in a letter from a unknown fellow in Montana ...I think he is a little ticked off! He also tells it like it is !

"Hey Alan, let's get a few things straight...

1. As a career politician, you have been on the public dole for FIFTY YEARS.

2. I have been paying Social Security taxes for 48 YEARS (since I was 15 years old...)                                                      

3 My Social Security payments, and those of millions of other Americans, were safely tucked away in an interest bearing account for decades until you political pukes decided to raid the account and give OUR money to a bunch of zero ambition losers in return for votes, thus bankrupting the system and turning Social Security into a Ponzi scheme that would have made Bernie Madoff proud.

4. Recently, just like Lucy & Charlie Brown, you and your ilk pulled the proverbial football away from millions of American seniors nearing retirement and moved the goalposts for full retirement from age 65 to age 67. NOW, you and your shill commission is proposing to move the goalposts YET AGAIN.

5 I, and millions of other Americans, have been paying into Medicare from Day One, and now you morons propose to change the rules of the game.. Why? Because you idiots mismanaged other parts of the economy to such an extent that you need to steal money from Medicare to pay the bills..

6. I, and millions of other Americans, have been paying income taxes our entire lives, and now you propose to increase our taxes yet again. Why? Because you incompetent bastards spent our money so profligately that you just kept on spending even after you ran out of money. Now, you come to the American taxpayers and say you need more to pay off YOUR debt.

To add insult to injury, you label us "greedy" for calling "bullshit" on your incompetence. Well, Captain Bullshit, I have a few questions for YOU.

1. How much money have you earned from the American taxpayers during your pathetic 50-year political career?

2. At what age did you retire from your pathetic political career, and how much are you receiving in annual retirement benefits from the American taxpayers?

3. How much do you pay for YOUR government provided health insurance?

4. What cuts in YOUR retirement and healthcare benefits are you proposing in your disgusting deficit reduction proposal, or, as usual, have you exempted yourself and your political cronies?

It is you, Captain Bullshit, and your political co-conspirators called Congress who are the "greedy" ones. It is you and your fellow nutcases who have bankrupted America and stolen the American dream from millions of loyal, patriotic taxpayers. And for what? Votes. That's right, sir. You and yours have bankrupted America for the sole purpose of advancing your pathetic political careers. You know it, we know it, and you know that we know it.

And you can take that to the bank, you miserable son of a bitch.

This would change everything and should be retroactive!

No one has been able to explain why young men and women serve in the U.S. Military for 20 years, risking their lives protecting freedom, and only get 50% of their pay. While politicians hold their political positions in the safe confines of the capital, protected by these same men and women, and receive full pay retirement after serving one term. It just does not make any sense.

On Fox news they learned that the staffers of Congress family members are exempt from having to pay back student loans. This will get national attention if other news networks will broadcast it. When you add this to the below, just where will all of it stop?

35 States file lawsuit against the Federal Government

Governors of 35 states have filed suit against the Federal Government for imposing unlawful burdens upon them. It only takes 38 (of the 50) States to convene a Constitutional Convention.

This will take less than thirty seconds to read. If you agree, please pass it on.

This is an idea that we should address.

For too long we have been too complacent about the workings of Congress. Many citizens had no idea that members of Congress could retire with the same pay after only one term, that they specifically exempted themselves from many of the laws they have passed (such as being exempt from any fear of prosecution for sexual harassment) while ordinary citizens must live under those laws. The latest is to exempt themselves from the Healthcare Reform.... in all of its forms. Somehow, that doesn't seem logical. We do not have an elite that is above the law. I truly don't care if they are Democrat, Republican, Independent or whatever. The self-serving must stop.

If each person that receives this will forward it on to 20 people, in three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message... This is one proposal that really should be passed around.

Proposed 28th Amendment to the United States Constitution: "Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States that does not apply equally to the Senators and/or Representatives; and, Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators and/or Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the United States ."

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 06:14 PM

He makes a significant percent of his income form the stock market. That is why he is so pissed off.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 06:06 PM

Gee, that's the best news I've heard in a while, Jack. It would be nice if people would get away from the ideological extremes and learn that we have to work together in practical ways to get our economy back on track. I think Obama is doing that quite well, although he's being excoriated for it by ideologues on both sides.

The stock market took a big hit yesterday. I think I'd better not look at my retirement account until the news gets better.....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:12 PM

This afternoon I talked to a friend of mine who voted Bush in 2004.

He blames the Tea Party. I feel a lot better about 2012.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:12 PM

Yes I said left when I meant right, but thats not dyslexia, thats just a brain fart.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:09 PM

'A fanatic is a person who, having lost sight of his goal, redoubles his effort to get there.'

Fanatics can be of any stipe from a Grover Norquist to a Al Sharpton.

Most personally sad is how poorly the Democratic movement in my country has defined our goal as a nation and how the right has emotionally programmed the right to see thier talking point as the goal with tunnel vision.

I wrote exhaustively about positive programing and my background as a unique hypnotist. No one ever engaged in those conversations. Folks seemed to just go wading in a pool of the same minutia, rehashing a detail to death.

Hope and Change engaged so many people because it sounded like a big goal with emotion. It is heartbreaking to see the emotion and goal ruined by a total surrender to the status quo of the deserving rich requiring more priviledge.

Thier is neither the rage or the hopefullness of the 60's.
Instead we have a people who stand befor a great depression as in the 30s expcept this time we start with large personal debt on top of the decline.

The goal of this nation when stated simply would be uniformally cheered. The goal of the left if honestly stated, would cause people to hiss and boo, or worse.

Where are the Danial Websters, the Lincolns the average Joe the plumber with insight and compassion.

Is it true the population on whole are conditioned to sell out for virtually any sum of cash and ignore all thier scruples? Or have things like conscience and understanding faded from our lives.
Is the only revered goal in life take the money and run?

Perhaps education and the greedly worship of self is what truely seperates the Founding Fathers from the religious right.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:08 PM

We are obviously well past talking about the debt ceiling.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:51 PM

I think it's called an argument when people start getting hostile toward one another over their various differences of opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:07 PM

But don't tell my heart, my achy breaky heart
I just don't think it'd understand
And if you tell my heart, my achy breaky heart
He might blow up and kill this man
Ooo

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:03 PM

If you bring in THAT country song. You are trying to pick a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:01 PM

It's called an argument when the folks you are trying to explain stuff to don't get it, Bill... *grin* back atcha...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 03:33 PM

*grin* not arguing... just 'explaining', hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 01:38 AM

Life is too short to want to spend very much of it arguing, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: michaelr
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 01:02 AM

My thread's gone looney tunes! Supports my theory that over 100 means it gets nutty...

Seriously, when you start bringing in country songs, you're pretty much out of arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 11:56 PM

Gosh...Do you think somebody is awaiting an e-mail, to know what to say, by cut and pasting??

..but he'd never admit it!

"..............They do your thinking FOR you...even tell you what to say, In their lies, they deceive and convince people to hate, and distrust their fellow man,......."

At least most the music I post, touches people's hearts!..not fucks with their minds!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:14 PM

So do I!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:09 PM

10-4, Jack...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:00 PM

Thank you for the input. I'm pretty sure that Bobert knew which Catter I referred to.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:57 PM

JtS: ".....as biased and looney as any Catter."

Perhaps, any 'political' Catter.
Here, let me give you a clue:
'Politics' is a mechanism in which people of influence and means, lie and couch, their plans to CONTROL, masses of willingly unthinking people, to THEIR advantage. They do your thinking FOR you...even tell you what to say, In their lies, they deceive and convince people to hate, and distrust their fellow man, even to kill them and each other, while convincing you that the opposition is the ONLY ones who feel that way! They do this while hiding who they are, and what they REALLY represent!...and all the while, the 'believers' are to proud to admit that they may have just made a mistake...even think up excuses for them and the 'controllers' count on that!
Fair Enough?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:37 PM

Sheet fire... I might leave it broken... lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:19 PM

By all means get it fixed, but the song is as biased and looney as any Catter.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:13 PM

Well then, Jack... Maybe my pudder being broken is God's way of keepin' my blood pressure down... lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:08 PM

I don't think u will like the song bob

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:07 PM

No comment!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 08:57 PM

Sheet fire...

I hate it...

GfinS may be a nut when it come to politics but she is right on when it come to music and my pudder has gone silent...

(^%*(&^!!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 08:38 PM

This teacher was FIRED for writing this song!!!..It might be a #1 Hit!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 07:41 PM

Speaking of 1/100th...

100!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 07:41 PM

Yeah, Jack... Seems that some folks have fallen victim to LH's middle-of-the-road-want-make-everyone-happy song and dance routine but don't realize that he is promoting Republican propaganda???

As long as there are enough LH's who are willing to play the "Both Side Boogie" then Karl Rove is a happy man...

BTW, Jack... How do you like Rove's "anti-Obama" ad campaign... Makes me not want to turn on the TV anymore 'cause here in the Charlotte area it's everywhere... Tens of millions of money being funneled thru Rove (domestic??? foreign??? alien??? Who knows???) to attack, attack, attack Obama 24/7...

Wis we on the left had 1/10th the money that the right has for PR... Okay 1/100th???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 07:33 PM

"US, how it came to pass and how ordinary people have been used and abused in the name of neo-conservative politics and economics and christian fundamentalism of all colours. "

You do realize that Little Hawk is saying that the above is not the primary problem. He is saying that the problem is the bickering between those forces and those who oppose those forces that is the problem and the two sides share the blame.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Andrez
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 07:16 PM

Recently finished reading Joe Bageants "Deer Hunting with Jesus" and "Rainbow pie". These books certainly give some perspective on what has been happening in the US, how it came to pass and how ordinary people have been used and abused in the name of neo-conservative politics and economics and christian fundamentalism of all colours.

Those books are worth reading for all of us on the other side of the globe and watching the US tragedy unfold. Its sad to see how the American dream has been transposed into the American nightmare!

Good on you Little Hawk, keep telling 'em like it is!

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Arkie
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 07:11 PM

One should not listen to the rhetoric of either party. Instead, one should open their eyes, observe what is happening, and act accordingly. One should also collect information from several sources and make it a point to gather information on both sides of an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 07:02 PM

LH and GfinS blindly sitting in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G
First come love
Then come marriage
and then come another blind kid
in a baby carriege

Are either of you paying attention to the real world??? Hello?!?!?...

TIA has it absolutely correct!!!

Ya'll are stuck in the wrong year... Go buy a newspaper and see what year this is... It ain't 2000 or 1996, or 1992...

It's 2011!!!

Hey, if you can't find the $$$ to buy one, ask someone what year it is...

Geeze... Lost in space... Major and Mrs Tom...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:56 PM

You think that GfS was talking about Kucinich?

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:47 PM

older.. but still true

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:44 PM

Tje Democratic Party has some tattered remains of a Left in it, Jack, embodied in a very few men (or women) like Dennis Kucinich, but as a party it has moved so far to the Right in the last few decades that I do not consider it to be a real representative of the Left at all. I think of it as a Republican wolf walking around in sheep's clothing and going "Ba-a-a-a-a-a" now and then to keep people in a state of fantasy about what sort of beast it really is.

As for the Republicans, they just bare their fangs and howl! They're wolves, and proud of it.

I don't consider any of the Canadian parties to be real representatives of the Left either anymore, by the way, not even the NDP. The NDP used to represent the Left, but I don't see any real evidence that they do anymore. The days of Tommy Douglas and Ed Broadbent are long gone. The Right has basically taken over politics in North America since the 1980s.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:42 PM

OHHH..and which one or both needs world domination, to reach their goals?

Where have we heard THAT before???

GfS

P.S. "History teaches us that man never learns from history."
..and...

"Given the choices given to man, mankind has a history of choosing the most painful, destructive path....and never realizing their ultimate goal!"

Show me otherwise!

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:36 PM

JtS: "Take a chill pill G-fuss. Don was making a joke where "left"="remains""

Duh-h-h..jeeez..not everybody is as numb as the folks you might be used to!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:36 PM

Little Hawk, you need to get your shit straight. You just said that the Democratic Party had no left.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:33 PM

Perfect. ;-) GfS has answered your query, TIA. There's nothing I need to add.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:32 PM

Take a chill pill G-fuss. Don was making a joke where "left"="remains"

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:23 PM

Little Hawk: "o, Don, it was not in any way a response to that post of yours. I was simply talking some about the negative behaviours one sees on both the political Right and the political Left, while emphasizing most strongly that I do NOT equate the poltical Right with the political Left!"

OK...let's look at both their behaviors.....

Which one or both believe lies about the other?

Which one or both believe that the other is their enemy?...

...regardless that they are of the same country?

Which one or both believe that the 'other' party caused the financial woes in the country?

Which one or both believe the 'other one' is corrupt?

Which one or both IS corrupt??

Which one or both can control their hatred for the other?

Which one or both believe 'their side's' goals are 'the WAY' regardless of the truth?

Which one or both believe 'the ends justifies the means'?

Which one or both believe their favorite 'news' media?

Which one or both think that their favorite 'news' sources AREN'T owned by large corporations?

Which one or both believe that the other should be eliminated?

Which one or both believe their cause is worth more than freedom, for ALL men?

How does their similarities cause them to behave differently that the other?

Which one or both have lost their Love?

Which one or both are not BELIEVING in Truth...over their 'issues'?

Which one or both shift positions, depending on who's in power?

Which one or both believe they are NOT being manipulated by globalist corporations?

Which one or both are being manipulated by globalist corporations?

Which one or both rely on ignorance to recruit 'true believers'?

Which one or both, in order to maintain their dominance would require complete control of the system, and people in the country?

Which one or both would you want to be CONTROLLED by?

Which one or both have 'leaders' who live the same 'lifestyle' as their followers?

Which one or both is really different from the other?

Which one or both is not full of shit??!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:22 PM

The Markets LOVED the economy under Clinton.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:15 PM

And BTW, if (as the Right has been claiming) the economy and markets suck because bidness people are afraid of Obama tax increases, why did the market shit the bed today right after a debt ceiling deal that included no tax increases?

Could it be that bidness people actualy know bidness, and are aware that deeply cutting government spending will depress the economy?

Nahhh. That can't possibly be. The market shit the bed because there were no tax breaks for wealthy people in the deal. THAT is what fixes everything.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:12 PM

I would be extremely curious to know some examples of negative behaviours by those on the left that can be equated with the bad behaviours on the right. Let's try some exasmples:

1) Rush Limbaugh said very publicly from Obama's inauguration onward that he "wants Obama to fail".

The equivalent is________________________________________________


2) Mitch McConnell has said that "the GOP's number one priority is to assure tha Obama is a one-term president."

The equivalent is________________________________________________

3) The Right has openly questioned the patriotism, citizenship, and professed religion of Obama.

The equivalent is_________________________________________________

4) When Obama gave his wife a 'tater in public, the Right (Fox News) called it a "terrorist fist jab".

The equivalent is__________________________________________________

5) Attendees of rallys for right wing candidates have shouted for the death of Obama, and the candidates did not refudiate this behaviour.

The equivalent is__________________________________________________

6) The right accused Bill Clinton of being complicit in the murder of Vince Foster.

The equivalent is__________________________________________________


I could go on and on, but I know how everyone here hates to be assigned homework (as do I). But if you can't fill in these blanks as fast as I made them (about 170 seconds...I am a good typist), you ought to get my point, n'est ce pas?

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:52 PM

No, Don, it was not in any way a response to that post of yours. I was simply talking some about the negative behaviours one sees on both the political Right and the political Left, while emphasizing most strongly that I do NOT equate the poltical Right with the political Left!

I think the political Right is deeply wrong in its basic philosophy of both finance and foreign policy. I think the political Left has some good ideas in the area of both finance and foreign policy. I think the political Left has virtually ceased to exist at a practical level in the USA government, and that that's been the case since the Reagan years.

I think there are some jerks, fanatics, and self-righteous assholes in both camps...the American Right and the American Left. What unites them is their utter contempt for one another and their sheer nastiness, not to mention their sense of moral grandeur and entitlement. Which camp has more of them is quite hard to determine...it would be like trying to determine how many worms are burrowing in the soil under my lawn! ;-) I'll leave it to others to count them.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 02:16 PM

LH, if that last was a response to my comment, please re-read and consider the available alternative meanings of the word "LEFT".

If it was in response to summat else, don't bother.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:33 PM

"they are ALL acting like jerks,"

No. The Tea Partiers/Fox News/Right wing talk Radio/Big Money/GOP are lying and lying and lying and trying to destroy the country for their own selfish ends. They lie and lie and lie and when some reacts they say "See those people are as bad as us."

Perhaps you should pay some attention to the substance of the debate? Or perhaps if it does not concern you enough that you bother to learn the substance, perhaps you should ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:24 PM

It's not a question of equating the Right and the Left. I much prefer the political Left to the political Right.

It's a question of identifying the toxic individuals and their toxic behaviour ON both the Right and the Left, individuals who engage in the same kind of ceaseless emotional crap, personal attacks, gross stereotyping, and extreme negativity whenever talking to or about anyone they think is on "the other side" of any argument whatsoever...or in the other party.

I don't care if those individuals are people on the Right or the Left, they are ALL acting like jerks, and it doesn't help the situation one bit. It poisons the dialogue. It reduces everything to shit (if I may speak metaphorically).


GfS - I think you are absolutely right in your post of 03 Aug 11 - 02:39 PM . As usual. Many people are too cynical to appreciate such idealism. I'm glad to see that you are not.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:01 PM

""'the winner of wars, is NOT the one who brings the most weapons..but rather who brings the Peace, and to whom receives it'!""

Needs a little work to enter the realm of famous quotes, but is nonetheless absolutely spot on.

Also true is this statement:-   War does not decide who is right, it merely decides who is LEFT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 05:23 PM

As a dyslexic, I know exactly what you said.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 04:42 PM

Exactly, Jack...

Both sides = Republican-speak

No two ways about it... Te Repubs are pushing "both sides" very hard into people's heads to give them cover while they go about trying to "starve the beast" to death...

I see this as blaming the ambushees of that victim of rape for the ambush or the rape...

But you have to give the Repub PR folks credit... Doesn't hurt that they are now pouring tens of millions into anti-Obama ads that are be blasted every night on the television...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 04:41 PM

Gold will decline tommorrow

Standard and Poor's will downgrade US to AA+ this month.
Insiders say "It's baked in"


Jeez If millionaires read my posts they could make 20% off thier dollar. I'm glad they don't.

Gov. Rick Perry prayed for rain when tropical storm Don roared into Texas and didn't rainb as much as the sweat off Rick Perry's balls.
Good one Mr. Firth.



Regarding the FAA losing 70,000 construction jobs and 4,000 inspector and accounting jobs:
npr said the sticking point in COngress regarded Unions.
WSJ says it is about 200 million dollars in support of rural airports.

Who should I believe?

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:30 PM

Equating the right and the left in this is just buying into the lies. Its the lack of an ability to tell righteous indignation from trumped up crap.

For example
Firebombing a mosque draws righteous indignation,
The "War on Christmas"
Trumped up crap.
Why shouldn't Wal*Mart be allowed to say "Happy Holidays" if only to include the 20-20% of their customers who are not practicing Christians?

Saying that you can both balance the budget and cut taxes, is a lie and it draws righteous indignation.

Saying that the Democrats want huge, job killing tax increases when they are only talking about repealing a 3% drop on the marginal rate on income over 250K is trumped up crap. The increases are not huge and they are not even increases. They are the expiration of decreases that The Republicans themselves put a limit on.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:39 PM

Little Hawk: "What motivation do they have to stop doing that under the present system?
Sanity? A sense of social responsibility? Love of their fellow humanity? Moral idealism?"

All I can, or be responsible for...is me, when it comes to my responsibility to be responsive, to the 'Great Spirit'. No matter what 'they' do, in this dimension, the reality of this dimension is bigger than 'they' think!...just because 'they' can't see it all, doesn't mean 'they' ain't living in it!....All I can say, is 'Are 'they' in for one hell of a surprise!!!'

'The meek shall inherit the earth'
'Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the Children of God'

Sometimes I read a post where some rabid partisan Bozo, starts encouraging others to take up arms,..or learn 'to shoot straight'(I think we know who says that shit)....but where they are fucking up, is 'the winner of wars, is NOT the one who brings the most weapons..but rather who brings the Peace, and to whom receives it'!
(You can use it,,it's original)

Regards,
Sanity

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:36 PM

Progress has been made LH.

We used to just shoot the President in the head along with his brother.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:29 PM

It just depends on who you listen to, Donuel. Extreme hyperbole and demonization of one's political opponents is a beloved tactic on both the Right and the Left. It just doesn't bother people when it's not aimed at their own side. In fact, they enjoy it. They delight in it. Demagogues know that, and they make use of it. Fox is preaching to the choir. People here on Mudcat who rave on about the Religious Right constantly are also preaching to the choir....their particular choir, that is. The tactics used are exaggerated and unscrupulous in either case, because the intent is to damage or destroy someone.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:08 PM

The Democrats, especially Obama are doing it now. Ask any lefty on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:08 PM

YOu would think that Democrats could propose an equally powerful yet positive message to counter MOnica Crowley's typical arguement.

Apparently they haven't

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:06 PM

"The radical insane left wing ignorant propoganda that spending is good for the economy is so dangerous and wrong if they are not stopped the entire country will be destroyed beyond recognition.
We have to cut or end all entitlements that are bleeding our country to death."

Monica Crowley today on FOX

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:05 PM

Jack - "It will only end if one of the Parties abandons the fringes and governs for the 60-70% of the population in the middle."

Agreed, Jack. That would end it. But I see no real sign of either of the Parties doing that. Instead, they are doing what profits them most in the very short run, and instead of serving the 60-70% of the population in the middle, they are provoking and manipulating the extreme fringes and serving the wealthy elite.

What motivation do they have to stop doing that under the present system?

Sanity? A sense of social responsibility? Love of their fellow humanity? Moral idealism?

Apparently none of those have proven to be a strong enough motivation thus far...in the face of the following 2 dominating motivations:

Profit and Power.

*****

The 60-70% of the population in the middle could force them to do it. That would require a second American Revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:44 PM

Hey Little Hawk, (yo-ho)...L.H."Where does it all lead eventually? To a failed economy. A failed political system. A failed foreign policy. A failed nation. Maybe even another civil war somewhere farther on down the line."

AND/OR THIS: (Note the quote from 'MAN', towards the end.....written in '91!!!!!)

SERIES OF SHOTS -- Holographic miniatures, different locations.

#1: Kids stealing car parts and rummaging through car; man runs out of house, after them with a shotgun.
#2: Man entering house, …partially clad, holding his pants up, trying to exit window.
                              
                                 VOICE:
          I want your wife…..she doesn't love you anymore!!    (SFX --Gunshot)

#3: Burglars working on a window.
#4: Man standing guard on his porch with a rifle; wife in window, holding two children.

                               MAN
                           (Angered)
          Since the collapse, people just think they can take just about anything they want….and nobody is
          going to stop them!

#5: Policeman running into his house looks at his wife.

                                 POLICEMAN
          I had to see if you were alright
                                 WIFE
                (Shaky frightened)
          It's gone mad. .all mad.

                                 POLICEMAN
          I'm staying ….I'm guarding you and the house, quick, get my revolver!

*****************************************************************

IT'S GOING TO BE A MESS!!

.."...........For he that gets hurt
             Will be he who has stalled
             There's a battle outside
             And it is ragin'
             It'll soon shake your windows
             And rattle your walls
             For the times they are a-changin'." Bob Dylan~~~1963!

Gosh! Think the 'plug-in' is available to everyone???
(I thought you'd understand)!

Best Regards!!!

Sanity!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:35 PM

No LH you do not understand politics. If the supporters both sides want good government then, until the next election the parties have to do their job and govern. This win at all costs strategy started under Reagan and Lee Atwater, continued under Gingrich and culminated under Karl Rove. It will only end if one of the Parties abandons the fringes and governs for the 60-70% of the population in the middle.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:23 AM

The failure of leadership is bilateral. The primary purpose of both major parties IS to cause the other major party to fail...and to get themselves elected...or to remain in office if already elected.

Everything they do is first and foremost ruled by that primary consideration.

Their failure to think unselfishly of the genuine interests of the public and the nation (and even of other nations in the world community), rather than their own selfish, parochial interests...results in a failure of leadership, a failure of vision, and a failed system.

Their inability to work together results in a failed nation.

Period.

I'm not saying Mr Obama himself is necessarily to blame for all that. Hardly!!! He may, in fact, merely be one of the many hapless victims OF that situation, because he's mired in it like a helpless animal in a tarpit, and he's been mired in it ever since he went to Washington...probably even before he went there.

It's the divisive 2-party system itself that has caused the American nation to fail. As long as individual Democrats and Republicans insist on just blaming the OTHER party (or the Teabaggers or some other noticeable faction) for what's going wrong, they will be missing at least half of the problem...which is the partisan system itself, the way it is FUNDED, and the dog-eat-dog behaviour it brings forth in its participants.

Where does it all lead eventually? To a failed economy. A failed political system. A failed foreign policy. A failed nation. Maybe even another civil war somewhere farther on down the line.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:23 AM

btw Matt Taibbi has an interesting past.

He started a weekly paper in Russia that made fun of the real life exploits of the Russian business/mob billionaires. He also played peo basketball on a Russian Team and played baseball for Mongolia.

He has one heck of a resume'


For Spaw,

The job creating ideology of Newt Gingrich, Willard Mitt Romney and Michelle Marybell Bachmann, or as I call them Grich, Mitch and rich bitch, is a genius job creating system.

First it reduces the number of people eligible for a job and thus raises the demand for employment.
For example when SS and Medicare are abolished, a large number of people will begin to dissapear, which opens up moe jobs.
Don't get me wrong, as they say, NO ONE WILL DIE AS A RESULT OF ELIMINATING MEDICARE. All those people will die of diseases like diabetes, starvation, exposure and heart problems!

Second, all the 'hangers on' who claim disabilites and waste our tax money will be weeded out in as little as two years, leaving only those who have the self respect to lift themselves up by thier own bootstraps and survive on thier own.

Third, whatever assitence that is still required can be privatized to give jobs to CEOs, CFOs, CAOs and RMO's (risk Management Officers). These jobs will be like insurance jobs and referral agencies. Here is the beauty part; This way job creators create jobs for themselves, jobs which require only a secretary to mail out denial of service announcments.

This will make a stronger America, a safer America and a Free America.

The Republican Credo is a Credo of Truth.


In the 12,000 Sq Ft. Foyer of the Koch Mansion hangs a 20 ft tall plaque...

The Credo of Truth

Money is the wind in our sail.
Save job creators and they will save you.
Act fast and opponents won't have a clue.
Only without government can we be free.
Treat workers as you would cut a tree.
The wisdom of money goes to the wise.
Eliminate enemies and profits will rise.
Cuts create Jobs.
Taxes kill Jobs.
Unions are the minions of Satan.
Control everything you have a stake in.
The EPA FDA FAA SEC and all the rest of these goblins
are Crooks in search of fake problems.
Our course is set by the Captain of Industry
Success is when everyone aspires to be me.
God guides the wealthy and wise who follow the best that they can.
Only the wealthy can know the true grandeur of man.


R Koch


PS The check is in the mail.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 09:28 AM

I agree with the guesting guest guest

There is a failure of leadership, but it is not unilatteral...
Rush LImbaugh, Eric Cantor, Boehner and McConnel have all raised thier arms and yelled

"SUCCESS !"



The day after Obama was elected we heard the central strategy of the Republican party.

"I HOPE HE FAILS."

of course to create a failure for Obama one would have to create failure for the nation at large.

McConnel confirmed the failure strategy when he said "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.... Our single biggest political goal is to give our nominee for president the maximum opportunity to be successful."



This wasn't just some throwaway line -- McConnell is explaining, on the record, how he intends to approach the policymaking process in 2011 and 2012. And as far as the Republicans' Senate leader is concerned, all of his efforts will be built around destruction.

It's tempting to think responsible lawmakers, when asked about their top goals, would talk about job creation, national security, immigration policy, energy, etc. But not Mitch McConnell. He sees destroying the president of the United States in the midst of multiple crises as his "single most important" goal. This is what the administration is supposed to negotiate with next year.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:41 AM

Are unnamed guests now allowed?

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:14 AM

Take it up with Boner Bachmann & the TeaBaggers, Guest Guest

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:08 AM

Something to ponder about BHO (That's Barack Hussein Obama)...

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America 's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the US Government can not pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government's reckless fiscal policies. Increasing America 's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that, "the buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."
-- Senator Barack H. Obama, March 2006 - Statement whilst voting against raising the debt ceiling

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:44 AM

Well, when it comes down to it, it was either taxes or interest rates that were going to be raised...take your pick...because it all goes to the same place..to pay down the debt of interest...Now just who's kidding who???....and who is representing you??

Oh, let's borrow some more!!....all we have to do is pay the interest on the loan.....NO. NO No!...pay the interest rates first..AND raise taxes....
It's all a charade....how this FACT evades you guys defies gravity!!!
You favorite 'political' party is scamming you.....wise up!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 01:15 AM

Obama's position on America's foreign wars leading up to and during the 2008 elections were among the reasons I had some serious doubts about him....but I still preferred him far over John McCain. My doubts about Obama have proven to be well justified. I suspect McCain would have been even considerably worse. I would have preferred not to vote for either of them, though... My vote of choice would have been for either Dennis Kucinich or Ron Paul (though there are some things I disagree with in Ron Paul's philosopy and agenda, namely his peculiar (very negative) view of socialism...but I do agree with his views on America's foreign wars and a number of other things).

I'm Canadian, though, so I can't vote for any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 01:01 AM

I thought a recession is not the time to cut spending??

Oh, to be an economist!

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 09:11 PM

Donuel said "People feel something is better than nothing, to a point."

When I was young, my local AA baseball team did an occasion promotion night where they drew a name at the 7th inning stretch and put a tarp on the pitcher's mound ...and covered it with a BIG pile of coins. They gave the guy a shovel and a bucket and told him he could have all the money he could shovel into the bucket...and without testing the weight, carry it all the way to home plate!
   They seldom had to give away any money. People 'almost' always told themselves they could handle one more shovel full.

What does this prove? Only that greed often overcomes common sense and judgement.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 08:36 PM

He said Iraq was the wrong war and he promised to do what it takes to get Bin Ladin. I understood that to mean a draw down in Iraq and redeployment to Afghanistan.

I was disappointed with his actions on the Bush tax cuts. He said a recession is not the time to raise ant taxes. That statement is true on the face of it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 08:01 PM

I was responding to your phrase "Obama is the change we asked for". That "we" does not include me, or indeed any of my progressive friends.

Did he say during the campaign he was going to escalate our commitment in Afghanistan?

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:56 PM

The next month, while Congress is out playing junkets, Obam will have an opportunity to regroup and start a number on new conversations... This is his time... If he fails to take advantage of August then he will have blown it... I think he will make the best use of the time...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:52 PM

He has done just what he said he would do in Iraq and Afghanistan. You should have paid better attention during the campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:31 PM

If by "we" you mean progressives, I didn't ask for much of anything he has done. I asked for the wars to end - he escalated them and started new ones. I asked him to stand up to the right wing nutholes - he has appeased them and caved in to them over and over.

It's no good trying to be a centrist when the "center" has been moved to the right of Barry Goldwater.

Change you can believe in, my fucking ass.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:20 PM

Obama is the change we asked for. He is trying to represent they whole country, use his head and act rationally. He is playing for the long haul and pretty much everyone is undermining him. I don't know if this country is ready for or even deserves to have a grownup in the Whitehouse.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:13 PM

The winner would define Bill as a loser without an ounce of competition. An empty shell of a lazy man.

I who have given away 3 fortunes, would say Bill is kind man.
Not overly kind, just wise enough to be kind.


The recent experiments of exchange is done with a ten dolar bill.
A person is given the money with the rules that must offer a certain amount to share with some stranger via a computer. If the other person does not accept the offer, they both keep nothing. IF he offers an amount and the stranger accepts, they both keep thier respective amounts.
This seems to measure what people are willing to accept or decline due to fairness and other factors.

You would think that offering half would be normal. It is not.
An offer of 3 is usually accepted by the stranger, seldom accepts 2 and 1 is usually deemed unfair and they both keep nothing.
People feel something is better than nothing, to a point. The point seems to be taking a 60% loss is acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:03 PM

Note... you cannot do that exercise with a group who knows how it is arranged. It must just test the behavior of groups who are not 'prepared'.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 06:55 PM

Bill, thank you. That is excellent!

Bobert, I hope you are correct. My instinct tells me Obama is a lot more canny than any of us know and has his reasons for what has happened. I do feel a lot of disappointment in him right now, but I still believe he is the person who is supposed to be in the White House, for now, and that he will prevail including not bailing entirely on us lefties.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:46 PM

a repost from another time: but I think it says something about the processes going on in the country these days.

Think about it.
----------------------------------------------------------------



I'll tell a little story about winning. I think that it is one of the times in my life when I learned the most about myself...and quite a lot about people!

I once took a class in a "free university" on something like 'self knowledge'...can't remember what it was called, but it was sorta like what they used to call an encounter group.

The 'facilitator' would lead a discussion or assign a project for the group to share...once it was "draw a picture of your family" that tells something...and then explain it to the others. Not very enlightening.

But then, one night we played a game! The class was divided into 3 groups, and we sat in those groups on the floor. The teacher/facilitator took a basket of poker chips of 4 colors and went around, giving each person a small handful, not letting anyone else see how many or what color. Then he explained that each chip was worth 'points'...I think 10 for blue, 5 for red, 3 for yellow, and 1 for white. Also, having several of one color (4 or 5) doubled the value of the group)..At his signal, we were to get up and move about the room and find someone to make a deal with...we were to hold hands..(the one without the chips) and were not allowed to let go until we had conducted some sort of trade...2 yellow for one blue...etc...

When everyone had finished, we went back to 'our' group and took score, adding up the total for the group. Well, it seems group 'A' was quite a bit ahead, my group, 'B' was in the middle, and 'C' was far behind. Now, said the teacher, since group C had the least, they could propose a change in the rules....but since A was ahead, they had veto power over the proposed change.....of course, C suggested something like reversing the value for blue & white, or allowing the 'poor' group to annex players from the 'rich' group...and of course, the rich group immediately vetoed this!

(see how this is going?)

So, we went to a 2nd round, with one guy in group A whispering plans to his team on how to get an even bigger share of the booty and generally acting like an executive at Enron!

I looked at all this, and when a girl took my hand and asked what I had to trade, I said "I'd like to give you all my chips!" She looked at me VERY strangely, but said "Sure!!"...and I went and sat down by the wall and watched.

Naturally, at the end of round two, group A had 75% of all the chips, and C was getting nowhere.

Group C was complaining and wanting to have more say in rules changes, but it was obviously not gonna work, so the teacher explained.

"If it was NOT obvious", he said, "I stacked the deck and gave group A a big advantage...and then gave them almost unlimited power to keep and extend that advantage" The one thing he noted that was a bit unusual was that there were 'leftover' chips in the basket at one side, and no one tried to steal them, as he said usually happened when he did this game....He did say that my spotting the rigged, unfair game and quitting was quite unusual, and that most players usually struggled to 'win', whether they were leading or behind...even though there was no particular purpose to winning in this game! The kid who was such a Type A personality was a teensy bit embarrassed, but not really contrite...and I suppose he is an executive somewhere now.

So...does all this seem familiar in any way? I'm not sure why I tumbled to it all...nor exactly sure why I refused to play when I saw I couldn't win....but none of the 'rules' said I MUST play...so....

Anyway, I left that class with some appreciation of how people deal with each other, and how arbitrary some value systems are....and 'winning' has never been too important to me since. Making sense and achieving REAL cooperation and sharing when you have to look someone in the eye and make a deal has always seemed like a better goal.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:09 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to 1937, 2012 style.


The American people don't like anything about the debt debate because its really about the prosperity of the few who have already taken all the money and real estate in the country.

Wille Nelson



I play a wicked version of Can you spare a dime.
Well... as wicked as a 320 year old cello can be.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 04:41 PM

Debt Limit: the alternative is bankruptcy, and when the biggest kid on the block defaults on his debt, what exactly would you do? (General question aimed at no one in partcicular.)

I think that people can voluntarily pay money to the tax revenue people and it then enters the country's general coffers. As for the Bush tax breaks, indeed they should expire.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 04:25 PM

I think all of the Bush tax breaks should expire. We are poor and our income is limited. But I would pay 3% more to save the country.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 03:13 PM

We are headed towards this...again:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eih67rlGNhU


Saul

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 02:47 PM

I heard an interesting comment earlier today on NPR. It was that it is really invalid to try to compare national/government budgets with household budgets. The rules are entirely different. For example (and this is me, not NPR), cutting household expenses isn't really the same as cutting Federal expenditures, and raising taxes (or eliminating deductions) is really different from going to one's boss and getting a raise.

The Tea Party Right, and many others in this country (including many on the opposite end of the political spectrum), seem to believe that the only way to reduce our overall debt level and bring the Federal budget into something approaching balance is to reduce spending...except that something like 70% of expenditures are apparently untouchable. Different groups have different sacred cows, but generally these would be Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, veterans' benefits, defense spending and the cost of servicing the debt itself. The whole concept of increasing income is either off the table entirely or is limited to soaking the rich.

IMHO, we spend entirely too much time and effort on trying to get the wealthy to pay higher taxes - and whether or not $250K p/a represents wealth is questionable. They have always found some way to get out of it - that's why there are tax lawyers - and I rather doubt that their actual tax rate has changed all that much in the past 10, 20 or 50 years, regardless of what the tax tables say. I am on a fixed income (2 different Federal retirement checks and VA disability compensation, none of which have had a cost-of-living increase in the past two years). The percent of my income "taken" by taxes has done nothing but decrease in the ten years since I retired, and I expect that I would not suffer significantly if it went back up to where it was in 2001. Fact is, folks, if we want all of these programs in place that benefit the working classes, than we are going to have to pay for them, one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 01:51 PM

Mr. Jones is talking to Mrs. Jones about spending. We need to cut spending! No more school for the kids. No more repairs for the house. No more trips to the doctor and your father has to move under the overpass.

But Mr Jones, you have lots of money.
That is invested in China.
What about your gun collection?
Tell you what. I'll stop buying ammo for the antiques I don't use.

But the kids have to go to the school and the doctor.

I've got a can of gasoline in my hand! I'm going for the matches!!

OK OK OK.... But it only would take 3% of your income over 250K nad we could have it all. You wouldn't even have to stop spending $45 dollars a glass for Johnnie Walker Blue Label at the country club.

Raising taxes is immoral.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 01:37 PM

Ayup!

Just ask Mr. Jones. Those who can't see the difference between a reasonable level of 'consumerism' and Mrs Jones' attitude of ummmm... "keep up with the Smiths" will probably also not see the hidden analogy in the cartoon.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 01:07 PM

Bill, "Mrs Jones" is the very principle that the consumer economy in the USA is based upon and that empowers kindly entities like banks, other lending institutions, and credit card companies! Are you suggesting that the American Dream (as demonstrated in Mrs Jones) is wrong??????????????   ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 10:57 AM

A clear explanation of certain reasoning

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: GUEST,curmudgeon
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 05:18 PM

The debt limit is a statutory convenience.

The requirement to pay the debts of the United States is Constitutional.

I hope that the Prsident gets the message.

- Tom

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 05:14 PM

Joe, compromise is not capitulation. The Dems get nothing out of this deal.

"Shared sacrifice" is a joke.

The Tea Party is dancing on the grave of the American economy.

Would you like two scoops with your Double Dip?

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 05:08 PM

If they stopped fighting their damned foreign wars, they'd have enough money to put the entire peacetime society back on its feet. One of the reasons I've been bitterly disappointed in Obama ever since he was elected (and even before) was his determination to enlarge the war in Afghanistan, and his commitment to other military occupations and conflicts (Iraq and Libya).

The only presidential candidates in 2008 who took what I regard as a responsible stand toward ending USA wars abroad were Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul. None of the others had the guts or the honesty or the vision to do so. They were all playing the "Patriot Game" in order to get votes...and funding! And media support.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 05:07 PM

Get me once, shame on you
Get me twice, shame on me...

I think the voters have figured this out this time...

The Dems retake the House next November and guess what??? This legislation can be revisited...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: gnu
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 04:59 PM

They ruined the economy a decade ago and beyond.

Ya wanna build a better economy? Invest in the youth. Don't charge them an arm a leg for education thereby denying them education. The idea that an uneducated youth can be used to wage war is a failed strategy... it's failing miserably now and it's only going to get worse while those who invest in their youth (China ring a bell???... Korea??? others) are on a SURGE.

We got NO surge protection!

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 04:51 PM

You don't cut spending during a recession. That is foolish.
Obama has two choices as I see it.
1. Grab the Fourteenth Amendment and abrogate every deal with the G.O.P.
2. Pass this piece of legislation, put the economy in the toilet and lose the
    next election.

It didn't have to go this way. The Tea Party has ruined our economy.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:40 PM

The Dems...especially Mr. Sen. Harry Reid...have beenhoist on their own petard by not raising the debt in December 2010. In the CNN video below, Reid gives two reasons for this.

First--it wouldn't be fair for an overwhelmingly Dem. congress to do so. Oh yeah? Didn't stop them from passing massive spending legislation with that congress over the previous two years.

Second (the real reason)--he wanted to have the Republicans to have "some buy-in on the debt."   In other words, he wanted the Republicans to share the blame for the new debt ceiling and any new spending that would, he expected, accrue from it.

The link is below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiA--Nj8eEI&feature=player_embedded

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:18 PM

Geez, if you expected something else you're naive.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:14 PM

Obama can't change the tax laws. The only thing he can do is veto the next extension of the Bush tax cuts and say that he will sign a bill restoring the cuts to those under 250K. It would probably be a good idea to call the GOP's bluff.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:13 PM

The Right controls both of your major parties, Bobert. They just make no bones about it in the case of the Republicans...they don't pretend to be anything other that what they are. Your whole political system is extremely right wing by the standards of Canada or Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:05 PM

To my progressive friends...

Chill for now... No, this wasn't going to turn out well at all but Obma did what he had to do...

He who fights and runs a way, lives to fight another day... Obama recognized this... Well, he didn't run away but he allowed the numbers to get up there but the Tea Party can't use this little ballgame again until Obama has been re-elected...

Oh, speaking of re-elected here's a bit of good news... Obama isn't stupid... He knows that he needs his left flank to be there for him next November so look for some bones to be thrown our way...

This was one battle... The war ain't over and we have the correct ideas for the future... The right can only hold *US* back but so long before they marginalize themselves...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 01:34 PM

Who owns the stock exchange don't matter peaturkey.

Who owns the stocks listed on the exchange is numero uno.
At the moment, China and I have about an even split.

A nonsensical post to a nonsensical thread.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 01:34 PM

Ummm...well, I think the Democrats and Republicans (at the party management level, meaning those people who are seated in government and who run the party machines) are BOTH beholden to the same big financial powers. That's the wealthy elite. The wealthy elite funds the parties, provides most of the money for campaigning at election time, and lobbies the parties when they are in office.

Accordingly, they serve the interests of that wealthy elite.

This recent Possible Debit Default crisis has been a manufactured crisis, in my opinion, staged in the usual fashion with massive media coverage...its purpose to panic the general public into meekly supporting legislation that is not in their real interest.

It's the "Shock Doctrine", as written about by Naomi Klein. You can shock people with an apparent military threat, such as 911. And they'll allow you to invoke emergency laws that take away their civil liberties and they'll allow you to launch wars of choice on foreign lands. Very profitable for the war industry and the oil industry.

You can shock them with a supposed national medical crisis (this is done quite frequently...every 2 or 3 years) and they'll pay for billions of dollars in new vaccines and drugs. Very profitable for Big Pharma.

You can shock them with a supposed debt default crisis, and they'll meekly submit to another assault on social services and another chipping away at all the gains that were made in social legislation since FDR.

The Democratic Party once worked in concert with labour unions and workers to provide jobs and services for the common public. That was a long time ago. The Democratic party has abandoned the labour unions. It has abandoned the general public. It's working for the wealthy elite...but pretending not to. The Republican Party works for the wealthy elite and is openly proud of doing so! The Democrats pretend to be an alternative to the Republicans, but don't turn out to be that at all once they are in office.

You can count on further episodes of the Shock Doctrine to be applied whenever these 2 corrupt and irresponsible parties are instructed by their financial backers that it's time to make their next key move...and it will not be a move that benefits the average American.

In order to increase the Shock effect and divide the public uselessly against one another, the usual emotional Splinter issues will be trotted out once again, their purpose to distract and divide the public into extreme opposition to each other over minor issues while enormously more significant social issues slip right by them:

Gay rights and gay marriage vs the Religious Right.

Stem cell research vs the Religious Right.

Anti-abortion vs pro-choice.

Accusations of racism flung in various directions vs Fear of Blacks on the part of small town White America.

Urban values vs small town and country values.

Anti-Islamic reaction vs defending Islamic people's rights.

Etc.

And what is all that? It's a bunch of highly visible emotional hoopla for people to be at each other's throats over (and to feel RIGHTEOUSLY INDIGNANT ABOUT!!! Which always helps...)

...while far more vital matters such as the invention of vast amounts of fictional money by the banks and the Fed in what is really a giant pyramid scheme go unnoticed. And the world's most bloated and aggressive military machine continues to roll on like a juggernaut and assault other nations. And your jobs get sent offshore or to Mexico. And your industries (unless they are war industries) wither away. And your private income goes down. And your private expenses go up. And your social services are privatized to the rich and greedy and cost you more after that. And your civil liberties are taken away piece by piece.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 12:22 PM

"I assume you know who owns the New York stock exchange now. ??

Germany."

Do you know the difference between a corporation from a country and the whole country?"

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 12:14 PM

Germany will be happy to invest even more in the US if they get more interest.

I assume you know who owns the New York stock exchange now. ??

Germany.


Today wars are won economicly by hooks and crooks.
Losers lose with bone head moves like cutting off thier face to spite thier perceived enemy. In this case the Tea Party thought America was the enemy. Thier way would create a new America for thier kids. Well they are right but for the wrong reasons and outcomes.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 12:01 PM

I agree with Donuel...Tiaibi says "Obama Doesn't Want a Progressive Deficit Deal"...and then writes a bunch of 'speculation' about motives and secret agenda. There are many other explanations for how things have gone and what Obama plans to do about it... INCLUDING using this behavior by the Repubs as a major re-election campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 12:00 PM

Nader and Ted Turner are trying to assemble 100 of the best progressives to find a couple who will entertain a primary challenge against Obama.

To thier dismay thier favorite candidates have already passed away.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 11:47 AM

Normally an insightful writer and investigator, Matt Tiaibi has ventured into a prophesy game that is delusional at its core.

While it is true that Obama is invested more heavily on political advantage rather than economic advantages, the idea that moving way to the right like Clinton did to keep the support of independents is a strategy of failure. Remember how the Republicans rewarded Clinton for his move to the right in his second term.

Obama will reap no recognition from the right for going right.
He will be even more despised than ever by lies and false talking points alone. The independents will hold their nose and vote for Obama only if the Republican tea smells as scary as W Bush as in a Rick PErry or Bachmann ticket. Otherwise the middle roaders will easuly fall for the old "save the job creators" lie. The Jobs the jopb creators created were in CHina. In the last 10 years our job creators dropped the manufacturing sector in Maryland from 36% to 6%, half of those jobs went to CHina and the others simply defaulted and went bankrupt.

Secondly there is no fix yet. There is no vote in the Senate or the HOUSE.

The stock market is down 7% by the end of the day. Even if HEdge fund money tries to prop the market up at the end of the day it may barely break 12,000.

If the credit rating drops, despite threats from Wall St, the CIA and the Chamber of COmmerce, the additional money paid to interest on the debt will be 1 Trillion. So all the cuts will wash to zero, We pay more, we get less services and who ever is collecting our interest - will make a fortune.


Tea Party and Republicans in the House have basicly called in our loans world wide and brought this future confrontation to be discussed now, with the additional specter of a National default added to the discussion. As unwise as it gets, financially speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: saulgoldie
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 11:06 AM

The Repubs have been all too effective in changing the conversation. And the Dems have just not countered or offered effective talking points. That is the root of the whole thing. When it comes to "the issues," large majorities of the public are with what should be core Dem values.

Most people really want safe food and clean air--which demand well-enforced regulation--medicaire, social security, roads, the FAA, the Post Office, and so on. And most people think that taxes should be much more progressive, and that ALL should pay, not just those who cannot afford lawyers and accountants to figure out all the loopholes.

The Dems have just got to take a page out of the George Lakoff playbook as the Repubs have done so well. Of course, that would take spine. And I don't see much of that among the current crop of Dem personalities.

Bobster, I wish I shared your optimism.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:19 AM

I never doubted that SOMETHING would happen before August 2.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:17 AM

As I said in the other thread on this same topic, any deal that has both the far Right and the far Left opposed to it can't be all bad.

Sorry, Art, but it ain't just the "far left" that's opposed to it- most rational, middle-of-the-road folks - including what's left of the old, sentient Republican party are against cuts to domestic programs that help the sick, poor and disabled and sustaining Tax Cuts For The Rich.

"Not all bad", perhaps- but the part that isn't bad is pretty damn small.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 09:32 AM

Like they say, the "devil's in the details"...

It is not certain that taxes are off the table... Let me explain... Yes, the initial cuts are $1T over 10 years... Those cuts will be divided between Defense and everything else... That's $50B a year for each side and is doable with minor tinkering...

Here's the real crux where taxes may very well come into play... The other $1.5T needs to come from somewhere and a bi-partisan committee (think Gang of 6 here) will tackle and negotiate... The way I understand it, and I have been listening very closely to what people are saying, is that increased revenues are ***NOT*** off the table... The language, if I have it right, says cuts in the "deficit"... If you increase revenues that means taxes can go toward that 2nd $1.5T...

Here's why I think it is possible... The debt ceiling was the one bullet in the Tea Party's gun and once it is passed until 2013 there are no more bullets...

Watch the conversation change once this thing is passed and signed...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 09:01 AM

As I said in the other thread on this same topic, any deal that has both the far Right and the far Left opposed to it can't be all bad.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Musket
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 08:30 AM

Speaking as a foreigner looking in...

The BBC news website has a small piece pointing out that Apple has more cash available than the The USA government.

Rather sobering thought....

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 08:21 AM

I'm afraid I don't find anything even remotely amusing about this colossal clusterfuck.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: saulgoldie
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 07:55 AM

July 31, 2011
Debt Ceiling is Raised Before Tea Party Understands What It Is
GOP Begins Hard Work of Creating Next Crisis

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report) – In an historic eleventh-hour bipartisan accord, the United States' debt ceiling was raised Sunday night before the Tea Party understood what it was.

In an effort to gain as many Tea Party votes as possible, the debt ceiling bill was drafted entirely in one-syllable words, congressional aides said.

But even as the final agreement was being put to bed, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) urged his Republican colleagues not to rest on their laurels: "Now, let us begin the hard work of creating the next crisis."

According to those close to the negotiations, the GOP in Congress were under pressure to get a deal done before the observance of the official Republican holiday, Shark Week.

Additionally, the Chinese government had warned that if the U.S. defaulted on its Treasuries, China was prepared to take full ownership of Washington and rename it Wang Chung.

In the end, though, Sen. McConnell said the Republicans stood to benefit the most from striking a deal that warded off financial calamity: "We deserve full credit for finding the antidote, even though we were the ones who administered the poison."

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 07:36 AM

There had to be a compromise - I just hope it was a good one.

If it doesn't include tax restoration, it is unarguably a BAD one.

Boehner was in a particularly difficult situation, since he and his people had been so badly bullied into submission by the "Tea Party Patriots."

Now you're feeling sorry for Boner? That fucker is a big part of the problem- a TeaBagger fellow traveller, to use a phrase popularized by Right Wing Loonies.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 06:36 AM

Well, it's a funny old day - I nearly agreed with MLC too until the last paragraph.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 06:12 AM

The Tea Party may have won, but America has lost.

Its citizens now know that those who lead them, and those who wait in the wings to lead them, care not a jot for any of them, other than their 'own kind', the uber-rich.

The world has looked on in horror as posturing prats have ponitificated to within a few hours of their country's financial life-span, threatening not only the USA but the whole world economy.

America will never recover from this internationally I feel...

Unless, of course, her People rise up against the iniquituous crooks who have bled their country dry.

Personally, I'd love to see Russell Means leading the USA, but sadly, he's not too well these days..Maybe he and Chief Oren Lyons could share a 4 years stint, rally all the Tribes together and get their country back on track and back in touch with Mother Earth as well as connected to the rest of the planet...

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 05:10 AM

Robert Reigh was on the Beeb this morning saying the Tea Party has won, and a lot of safety nets being removed eg. for the elderly is part of the price of raising the borrowing limit.

Meanwhile the rich will continue to get richer, tho' to what end remains unclear.

I think the Right always have sufficient thickness in all departments to beat Liberals into submission. Obama is being forced, as Blair and Brown were forced, rightwards simply to have a chance to remaining in office. The Right aren't really amenable to debate. Anyway, it's really about The Golden Rule - 'Whoever has the gold makes the rules.'

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 03:20 AM

Eminently plausible LH.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 03:02 AM

Consider this:

This July 11th article from Rolling Stone might shed some light on the issue:

Obama Doesn't Want a Progressive Deficit Deal
POSTED: July 11, 11:31 AM ET

(written by Matt Taibbi for Rolling Stone)

One expects the debt-ceiling mess to involve a lot of ostentatious chest-pounding on both sides, for despite the fact that this is a deadly serious issue – the fact that we're even considering incurring an intentional catastrophe via a default is incredible, a testament to the bottomless stupidity inherent in our political climate – this whole debate is primarily an exercise in political posturing.

That Republicans are holding up what should be a routine, if unpleasant, decision to raise the debt ceiling in order to portray themselves as the uncompromising defenders of the budget-balancing faith (a howling idiocy in itself, given what went on during the Bush years) is obvious to most rational observers. It's the obvious play for the lame-duck party entering an election year, and they're playing it, with the requisite hysteria.

But what is becoming equally obvious, to both sides, is that the Obama White House is using this same artificial calamity to pitch its own increasingly rightward tilt to voters in advance of the 2012 elections.

It has been extremely interesting in the last weeks to see observers on both sides of the aisle make this point. Just yesterday, the inimitable New York Times conservative Ross Douthat listed Obama's not-so-secret rightward push as a the first in a list of reasons why the Republicans should dig in even more, instead of making a sensible deal:

Barack Obama wants a right-leaning deficit deal. For months, liberals have expressed frustration with the president's deficit strategy. The White House made no effort to tie a debt ceiling vote to the extension of the Bush tax cuts last December. It pre-emptively conceded that any increase in the ceiling should be accompanied by spending cuts. And every time Republicans dug in their heels, the administration gave ground.

The not-so-secret secret is that the White House has given ground on purpose. Just as Republicans want to use the debt ceiling to make the president live with bigger spending cuts than he would otherwise support, Obama's political team wants to use the leverage provided by those cra-a-a-zy Tea Partiers to make Democrats live with bigger spending cuts than they normally would support.

Douthat makes this observation, then argues that the Republicans should recognize Obama's hidden motive and hold out for an even better deal. It will then be a race to see which party can abandon employment in favor of deficit reduction faster. He writes:

Why? Because the more conservative-seeming the final deal, the better for the president's re-election effort. In that environment, Republicans have every incentive to push and keep pushing. Since any deal they cut will be used as an election-year prop in 2012, they need to make sure the president actually earns his budget-cutting bona fides.

This is interesting because just last week, the liberal opposite of Douthat at the Times, Paul Krugman, came to the same conclusion:

It's getting harder and harder to trust Mr. Obama's motives in the budget fight, given the way his economic rhetoric has veered to the right. In fact, if all you did was listen to his speeches, you might conclude that he basically shares the G.O.P.'s diagnosis of what ails our economy and what should be done to fix it. And maybe that's not a false impression; maybe it's the simple truth.

One striking example of this rightward shift came in last weekend's presidential address, in which Mr. Obama had this to say about the economics of the budget: "Government has to start living within its means, just like families do. We have to cut the spending we can't afford so we can put the economy on sounder footing, and give our businesses the confidence they need to grow and create jobs."

Krugman seems to believe that Obama has basically purged all of his real economic advisors and is doing what Bush did on foreign policy -- engaging in complex and portentous policy initiatives at the behest not of experts, but political advisors. Just as Bush had Karl Rove telling him when and how to launch military invasions and drop bombs on unsuspecting foreign human beings in order to establish electoral credentials, Obama might be playing chicken with the budget for the benefit of undecideds in Florida and Ohio:

Some of what we're hearing is presumably coming from the political team, whose members seem to believe that a move toward Republican positions, reminiscent of former President Bill Clinton's "triangulation" in the 1990s, is the key to Mr. Obama's re-election. And Mr. Clinton did, indeed, rebound from a big defeat in the 1994 midterms to win big two years later. But some of us think that the rebound had less to do with his rhetorical move to the center than with the five million jobs the economy added over those two years — an achievement not likely to be repeated this time, especially not in the face of harsh spending cuts.

The blindness of the DLC-era "Third Way" Democratic Party continues to be an astounding thing. For more than a decade now they have been clinging to the idea that the path to electoral success is social liberalism plus laissez-faire economics – in other words, get Wall Street and corporate America to fund your campaigns, and get minorities, pro-choice and gay marriage activists (who will always frightened into loyalty by the Tea Party/Christian loonies on the other side) to march at your rallies and vote every November. They've abandoned the unions-and-jobs platform that was the party's anchor since Roosevelt, and the latest innovations all involve peeling back their own policy legacies from the 20th century. Obama's new plan, for instance, might involve slashing Medicare and Social Security under "pressure" from the Republicans.

I simply don't believe the Democrats would really be worse off with voters if they committed themselves to putting people back to work, policing Wall Street, throwing their weight behind a real public option in health care, making hedge fund managers pay the same tax rates as ordinary people, ending the pointless wars abroad, etc. That they won't do these things because they're afraid of public criticism, and "responding to pressure," is an increasingly transparent lie. This "Please, Br'er Fox, don't throw me into dat dere briar patch" deal isn't going to work for much longer. Just about everybody knows now that they want to go into that briar patch.

Subject: RE: BS: US Debt Limit: The fix is in
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:56 AM

Either Barack Obama is the most spineless coward ever to hold the office of President, or he was a right-wing plant all along.

I don't think either is true, Michael. There had to be a compromise - I just hope it was a good one. Boehner was in a particularly difficult situation, since he and his people had been so badly bullied into submission by the "Tea Party Patriots." What a mess we're in these days - and yet I still think Obama is doing a good job.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The fix is in
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:16 AM

Obama can't do anything the Congress doesn't tell him, or at least give him permission, to do with the money problem.

Don't feel bad though. Ignorance of the Constitution and of the powers of the President is quite common in the US, and especially in the current Senate. (The responsibilities of the Legislative branch are also quite a mystery there, it seems.)

John

Subject: BS: The fix is in
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:07 AM

A deal has been made. Boehner: ... added the agreement was "all spending cuts. The White House bid to raise taxes has been shut down."

Either Barack Obama is the most spineless coward ever to hold the office of President, or he was a right-wing plant all along.