BS: The Reuben James

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 02:04 PM

As Napoleon's chief of police once said of an execution of an opponent "It was worse than a crime; it was a mistake."

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 01:17 PM

Congress unanimously declared war on Germany and Italy on Dec. 11. 1941, three days after the declaration against Japan, and immediately after Italian and German declarations against the U.S.

Republican Congresswoman Jeanette Rankin, a pacifist, had voted against the declaration of war on Japan; she abstained from the second vote.

Rankin said, "As a woman, I can't go to war, and I refuse to send anyone else." She did not seek re-election in 1942.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 10:39 AM

Of course the USA never did get round to declaring war on GermaGermadeclared war on the USA in support of Japan.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 09:32 AM

gnu-

Yes, we should not stir up those ocean waves again. And may the survivors on both sides find their peace.

And may Hitler and his cronies continue to sizzle well in Hell.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: gnu
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 08:54 PM

Lighter... "in any sinister sense." I assume we both allude to the same scenario, that of the sinking of a US ship would spur a declaration of war by the US?

In any case, it did not. And such could also be seen to be strategic on the part of the US in the training of naval forces. Agian, it's all conjecture. 20-20 hindsight. In the very end, it's all quite sad because, as I have said many times in this forum for some ten years... the rich subjugate the poor... war is their game for their profit.

Lest we forget... has more than one meaning in my books.

And that's enough for me on this thread as it, nay, *I*, have drifted far too far from the topic intended. My apologies Kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 09:34 PM

Nobody put the Reuben James in harm's way in any sinister sense.

The North Atlantic was vital to a number of nations - including Britain, the United States, and Germany.

Reuben James was escorting a British-bound convoy authorized under Lend-Lease by the United States Congress. Opinion polls showed that 2/3 of the U.S. public favored the pro-British Lend-Lease law, which gained Caribbean bases for the U.S. while allowing the British to sustain the fight against Hitler. Lend-Lease also provided aid to China and the USSR.

Everybody realized that Germany would regard Lend-Lease as a breach of neutrality and would react militarily - though probably short of war, because Germany was unable and unprepared to attack North America directly.

The sinking of the Reuben James was accepted by Washington as part of the expected cost of maintaining Britain's lifeline of supplies and Anglo-American control of the North Atlantic. The destroyer Kearny had already been torpedoed under similar circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 08:22 PM

The victors get to write most of the history books.

After Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union, the Almanac Singers changed from composing and singing their peace protest songs to songs to encourage the war effort. Given the propaganda (by both sides) that was proven after World War 1, it was reasonable for good intentioned people in the late 1930s to be suspicious of the atrocity stories of Nazi Germany.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: gnu
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 07:03 PM

That's the deal that I was talking about, Charley... the ship was deliberately put in harm's way. Why that was done is a mystery - maybe(?). But, obviously, the Germans did what they had to do and then put the onus on the US to decide if a media storm was a good or bad thing for their administration.

It's all 20-20 hindsight (conjecture?) but it certainly doesn't reflect poorly on "The Dirty Huns" from a strategic or defense point of view.

Then again... history is history eh?

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 10:46 PM

Here's the summary from Wikipedia, which seems to correlate with what I remember reading:

"Based at Hvalfjordur, Iceland, she sailed from Naval Station Argentia, Newfoundland on 23 October, with four other destroyers to escort eastbound convoy HX 156. At about 05:25 on 31 October, while escorting that convoy, Reuben James was torpedoed by U-552 commanded by Kapitänleutnant Erich Topp near Iceland. Reuben James had positioned herself between an ammunition ship in the convoy and the known position of a "wolfpack", a group of submarines that preyed on Allied shipping. Reuben James was hit forward by a torpedo and her entire bow was blown off when a magazine exploded. The bow sank immediately. The aft section floated for five minutes before going down. Of the 159-man crew, only 44 survived."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: gnu
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 04:36 PM

I agree Charley. If she was put in harm's way by the US Navy (read President on accounta he SURELY must have known, right?) and got sunk then it's not the fault of the Germans. In esscence, her presence guarding a munitions ship was an act of war. Perhaps the Germans explained "that" and nothing was done by the US in order to put a "media spin" on it???

Having said that, a number of men died that day it's... well... lest we forget.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 12:13 PM

Thanks, Bkln! I wasn't aware of that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 09:33 PM

Many years have passed and still I wonder why
The worst of men must fight & the best of men must die.

That verse was actually composed by Fred Hellerman of The Weavers when the group recorded the song in the '50s. They deleted Woody's original final verse:

Now tonight there are lights in our country so bright
And in towns and in cities they are telling of this fight
Now our mighty battleships will steam the bounding main
And remember the name of the good Reuben James

As I seem to remember reading, they thought the original final verse sounded too pro-war.

Jay

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 07:51 PM

Kendall-

I believe the Reuben James was providing escort to a convoy that was bound for England; we were providing such escort to about halfway between the States and England in the 1940-41 period. Certainly the convey would have been carrying war materials.

Evidently the German explanation for their action was sufficient enough that we didn't declare war.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 07:26 PM

I don't mean to defend the Nazi bastards but they had every right to sink the Lusitania. They knew it was carrying war supplies to England because their spies in NY told them so.
The Reuben James was not carrying supplies to England, and we were not at war with Germany. I believe they apologized, did they not?

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 06:44 PM

Sonmebody already told us what were the names...

Country Joe's version is my fave, but that would make this a music thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 04:08 PM

As I recall when Woody originally composed the song he included all the names. It was his bandmates in the Almanac Singers that persuasively argued for the summary form of the chorus, which wouldn't take 30 minutes to sing.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: gnu
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:09 PM

The Lusitania was a Brit liner. February 1, 1917 was the date Germany lifted restrictions so that any ship thought to be supplying the enemy could be attacked. And they made it clear weeks in advance... rather sporting of them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:52 PM

Many years have passed and still I wonder why
The worst of men must fight & the best of men must die.

Reminds me of Arlo's commentary when I heard him perform "Deportee/Plane Wreck at Los Gatos" about eight months back (paraphrased):

" Nice to know that the song is still popular, but its depressing to realize that the same bullshit is still going on & that so little has changed in 70 years".

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:05 PM

I know that. I'm saying that we were warned that any ship carrying war material to England would be sunk. That warning didn't expire after WW 1.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 01:51 PM

Ah, Cap'n? Lusitania was sunk in 1915....

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 01:33 PM

What's funny about the Reuben James?

I'll bet Charley and those survivors weren't laughing. Or maybe some of you think WG was giggling between the lines.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 12:20 PM

The Germans warned us that sending war material to their enemy, England, such ships would be sunk.

That goes back to before the Lusitania.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 11:45 AM

We actually sang the song in the presence of five survivors when a monument was dedicated to this ship and her crew some years ago in Portland Harbor, Maine. That was also a memory to cherish.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 10:46 AM

They say a hundred men were drowned in that dark watery grave......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 10:29 AM

I am sure Rapp did not have a friend on the Reuben James.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 10:07 AM

Here's a list of those rescued and those killed when DD245, "Reuben James", was sunk by a German torpedo on October 31, 1941.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 10:00 AM

Yeah. Tell me, what were their names?

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 04:44 AM

What were their names ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Greg B
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 11:47 PM

I heard of a ship called the "Good Reuben James." Quite a Wildwood Flower.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 09:13 PM

Wasn't that the guy who founded some investment firm or something? Or Bartells and James?

Seriously, it didn't help Germany keep the US out of the war.

Subject: RE: BS: The Reuben James
From: frogprince
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 08:41 PM

Someone should write a song about that.   : )

Subject: BS: The Reuben James
From: kendall
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 07:56 PM

I forgot to mention yesterday that it was the 70th anniversary of the sinking of the USS Reuben James. May she rust in peace.