BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Jul 12 - 12:01 PM

The Catholic church was gonna outlaw the God particle, but the church leadership decided it wouldn't be possible to do that because they couldn't have mass without it.

Gotta love wags on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Jul 12 - 05:39 PM

OK, define god. Let's see what agreement there is. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 12 - 12:03 PM

I thought it was spelled, boatswain?

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jul 12 - 12:01 PM

A good, clear explanation from the Grauniad.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 12 - 11:04 AM

already a part of daily culture

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,Sfj
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 05:55 PM

Truly I am humbled.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 02:54 PM

Sugarfoot, if you cannot distinguish between poetic language and superstition, you best keep that to yourself (in particular at a forum about music).

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 02:17 PM

Sugarfoot, if you cannot distinguish between poetic language and superstition, you best keep that to yourself (in particular at a forum about music).

Let me just sketch an important difference between physics and, say, engineering. Engineer are proud of their discoveries. So are physicists, but on top of that they occasionally feel "Wow, this solution is more stunning than I could have imagined!" Think of relativity theory, or Newton's laws, or Maxwell's equations.

Bonzo, to each his own. Note that Bach is not considered a god himself, but something like a prophet, his music being the revelation. Other music can have the same effect, which must well be distinguished from idolizing its composers or performers.

A pop musician (I forgot who it was) said in an interview something like: "I'm a hard-boiled atheist, but when I listen to Bach's music, I'm no longer that sure."

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 01:22 PM

"There is also a musicians' God, typically professed by lovers of Bach's music."

I thought that was Eric Clapton!

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Stu
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 12:48 PM

"The physicists' God is unique by the fact that He leaks undisputed revelations every now and then."

Er, no. Scientists go and seek the knowledge and find out for themselves. No need to drag superstition into the process at all. Of course, that might not stop you projecting some non-existent meaning into scientific discovery, but then that's your problem. Best keep it to yourself though.

"My guess would be it decayed."

I seem to remember reading the Higgs decays into photons, which then decay into something else. This makes them right little bleeders to pin down.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 10:50 AM

Decayed? What would a basic, elementary particle decay INTO? ;>)

If, as they say "Matter cannot be created or destroyed", then the particle which gives matter mass seems as if it would not be able to do anything except recombine with other particles...and if other local NON-broken protons have their allotment, why not just reassemble its poor, broken 'home'? )But, that's just a guess....)

A.N. Whitehead said "Everything must be somewhere."

Whiteheads-Radically-Different-Postmodern-Philosophy

and this... http://www.anthonyflood.com/joneswhiteheadgod.htm (part 4)

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 05:03 AM

Just to make that clear: I do not arrogate a thorough knowledge of any science, and I am neither defending nor accusing anybody. My information comes from books and other media, and from personal acquaintance with some biologists and physicists who are certainly not arrogant.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 12:30 AM

My guess would be it decayed. But that is just a guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 11:57 PM

"Maybe the boson is god? :-)"


Well, the 'pataphysicans say "God is the tangential point between zero & infinity." .... which sounds a bit like where they FOUND this teeny little thing. I think the reason it was so hard to find is that it has no real 'place' except AS an enabler of things with mass. That's as close to what a 'God' is supposed to do as I am willing to consider. Getting one knocked loose- even for an instant was quite a feat.

The question is... where did it go after they 'saw' it? My bet is, it went right back to the proton where it was found......

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 08:36 PM

Maybe the boson is god? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 08:24 PM

Dawkins is a social pioneer opening the gates to a new society unbound by religious prejudices and outmoded philosophical meanderings. His standing in a community of worn out academics does nothing to demean his insights.

As to evolutionary science, it is a relatively new field but more is being realized daily through the efforts of the Leakeys and others like them.

Anyone who professes a thorough knowledge of physics is remarkably arrogant as new ideas and breakthroughs are being made available all the time.

To quote an eminent scientist analogous to science in general, "Anyone who thinks he understand quantum mechanics doesn't understand quantum mechanics."
This statement as applicable to science in general as it is a living and growing entity not encumbered by the crystalized and static notions of religion.

And of course, there's the old theological saw of the Cosmological Argument that updates it to if a god created the Boson, who created the god? Why is it not the goddess particle or the pantheon particle? Why is it not found in the dead sea scrolls? :) The answer of course is that scientists, not a god, discovered the Boson.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 07:13 PM

Dawkins has indeed been successful with his biological research, but not undisputed. Compared to theoretical physics, evolution theory has not yet reached the crispness of notions it may achieve in the future.

His standing in philosophical and social sciences is much worse, and obviously he does not care at all. (The same applies to many church functionaries and state "philosophers", which is no excuse.) We had that discussion in other threads. With my idea that Dawkins is jealous I am of course not absolutely serious, but it makes sense that Cain kills God instead of Abel.

I once watched a TV interview with an Italian Jesuit priest who is also a physicist. Summary: official Catholic theology is quite mistaken about the characteristics of God and creation, since its authors (including the then Pope John Paul II) do not have the insight from thorough study of physics. To know just the results does not suffice for that insight.

Physicists with no religious affiliation often have the same strong feeling that their science tells them something about God.

There is also a musicians' God, typically professed by lovers of Bach's music. The evidence, however, is not quite as convincing to the heathen.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 05:29 PM

Mark S. that's a fine idea. Let's go to court.

Grishka, Dawkins has been extremely successful in his science. In fact, he is more successful than the proponents of a god because their numbers are diminishing
as people become more enlightened.

Non-belief or "nones" is the fastest growing movement over the church ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 12:45 PM

Of course there are no real theological implications in the HB in particular. There is just some superficial analogy between that heuristic (inexact) visualization "causes other particles to have mass" and traditional religious thinking. I do not know about "keystone" properties etc., but by all I read particle physics is by no means at its end.

Publicity-driven? Probably, but scientists seem to enjoy insiders' catchwords as well, or even more, since they know the exact meaning.

The physicists' God is unique by the fact that He leaks undisputed revelations every now and then. Richard Dawkins, who has not been quite that successful in his science, might be jealous.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 10:34 AM

In that case, shouldn't the photon be the "God particle"? God said, "Let there be light!" Surely the boson didn't exist before that instant.

All I'm saying is that, IMO, the name "God particle" is no more than a catchy, publicity-driven moniker with no real theological implications. It's like a brand name.

And if God created the boson, it's still no more crucial to the smooth functioning of the cosmos than any other particle. It is crucial to the completeness of physical theory, however. So maybe it's the "keystone particle" or "the last particle you'll ever need!"

If I understand it correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 09:55 AM

Lighter, the connection is easy to see: the Higgs boson is said to cause other particle to have mass (though not Mass, as in the pun bobad links to), which can be seen in analogy to creation events as described in the Bible.

In pre-Christian times, the word god (or gudan etc.) was of neuter gender, so it cannot have meant a personal being. It may have referred to an abstract spiritual essence that fills the entire space, which makes for another analogy to the HB.

I know nothing about Lederman's personal faith, I was just observing that when scientists draw ironic analogies to spiritual concepts, it is often not mere irony.

In contrast, "the publisher wouldn't let us call it the Goddamn Particle" is a joke and nothing else; "wouldn't" meaning if we had suggested it. A journalist constructed a case of censorship from this, obviously falling victim to this joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 08:37 AM

Here's how the Oxford English Dictionary quotes Lederman:

"As for the title, The God Particle, my coauthor, Dick Teresi, has agreed to accept the blame... I mentioned the phrase as a joke once in a speech, and he remembered it and used it as the working title of the book. 'Don't worry,' he said, 'no publisher ever uses the working title on the final book.'

"Why God Particle? Two reasons. One, the publisher wouldn't let us call it the Goddamn Particle, though that might be a more appropriate title, given its villainous nature and the expense it is causing. And two, there is a connection, of sorts, to another book, a much older one."

He apparently didn't say exactly what he thought that connection was. And even later he thought that "Goddamn Particle" was the more appropriate name.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 08:28 AM

Lederman was joking about the epitheton "Goddamn", if the Wikipedia article quoted by Jack the Sailor above (05 Jul 12 - 04:11 PM) is correct. And certainly the name "God particle" is ironic to some extent, in a widespread tradition which most notably included Albert Einstein.

Nevertheless, Fossil: The revelations of theoretical phyics are open for any Doubting Thomas to check if he really wants. The word "existence" is somewhat misleading, since the "particles" of modern physics are only mathematical concepts, which however may or may not pass experimental tests.

Sacrifices for truth? A tricky question. Anyway, many selfish creditors (including taxpayers who vote) seem to think that particle physics pays at the end of the day financially as well. Nowadays all branches of science must struggle for money, and have recently developed rhetorical competences to justify themselves, like politicians. This is sometimes regretted by the very same people who had asked for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Fossil
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 09:33 PM

Its existence has only been revealed to a small band of select acolytes. They have demanded enormous sacrifices from the European taxpayer. That it exists at all is a matter of faith. What else would you call it?

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 09:11 PM

The Higgs Boson should have a complementary particle -- a Higgs Boson's Mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 09:03 PM

Tell me that switching from "God-damned particle" to "God particle" for the sake of a saleable title isn't ironic.

Well, maybe "wryly cynical" would be a better description.

But it isn't very much different. Higgs's boson is no closer to God than a proton. It was just a lot harder to find and tends to validate some important physical theories.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 08:00 PM

It could be called the dog particle - that would be just as relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: MarkS
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 07:57 PM

Don't call it the God Particle, or you will get athiest groups filing suit to pervent government funding in the research.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 07:10 PM

"Lederman said he gave the Higgs boson the nickname "The God Particle" because the particle is "so central to the state of physics today, so crucial to our final understanding of the structure of matter."

Where is the irony?

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 06:53 PM

> we can assume that the nickname is not mere irony.

Actually we can. The coiners say that's what they intended. Irrespective of anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 05:44 PM

Many physicists, members and non-members of religious organizations alike, have the strong feeling that they are conversing with the Creator and the Holy Spirit, so we can assume that the nickname is not mere irony. Their Intelligent Design Theory assumes much more intelligence than mankind will ever fathom, let alone fundamentalist theologians deem sufficient. The fact that every decade or so scientists from many nations collectively shout "Wow!", is indeed a proof that the spirit, holy or not, is alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 04:51 PM

So a Higg's boson walks into a church......

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 04:11 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Particle:_If_the_Universe_Is_the_Answer,_What_Is_the_Question%3F

"The God Particle" redirects here. For the particle nicknamed thusly, see Higgs boson.
The God Particle
Cover
Author(s)         Leon M. Lederman, with Dick Teresi
Country         United States
Language         English
Genre(s)         Physics
Publisher         Dell Publishing
Publication date         1993
Media type         Print (Hardback & Paperback)
ISBN         ISBN 0-385-31211-3 (Original hardcover)

The God Particle: If the Universe Is the Answer, What is the Question? is a 1993 popular science book by Nobel Prize-winning physicist Leon M. Lederman and science writer Dick Teresi.

The book provides a brief history of particle physics, starting with the Pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Democritus, and continuing through Isaac Newton, Roger J. Boscovich, Michael Faraday, and Ernest Rutherford and quantum physics in the 20th century.[1][2][3][4]

Lederman said he gave the Higgs boson the nickname "The God Particle" because the particle is "so central to the state of physics today, so crucial to our final understanding of the structure of matter, yet so elusive,"[5][6][7] but jokingly added that a second reason was because "the publisher wouldn't let us call it the Goddamn Particle, though that might be a more appropriate title, given its villainous nature and the expense it is causing."[5][8]

Subject: RE: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 03:53 PM

Watch for the claim (to be accepted by millions) that the discovery of the "God particle" (so named for publicity reasons only) means that science has scientifically proved the existence of God.

The coiners says they originally called it the "God damned particle" because it was so hard to find. But they shortened the name to make it more interesting to the paying customers.

Subject: BS: Higgs & Boson=G-d?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 11:36 AM

This is easily explained in the Bible. Perhaps the Sweet Baby James version. Or maybe the Gutenberg or Roberts Rules of Order version. Or maybe the VW Repair Bible. Or maybe...Anyway.


Higgs Boson Particle

Saul