Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Marion
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 10:48 PM

Happily, M.Ted, I already have.

Marion

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 06:45 PM

Marion--you did the right thing--I just hope you keep looking til you find someone who can teach you what you want (as opposed to what they want)--

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Marion
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:47 PM

I appreciate what M.Ted and Rick said way above about making sure your teacher is familiar with the kind of music you want to do.

A few weeks ago I interviewed a guitar teacher who is very accomplished in classical, jazz, and pop material (teaching, performing, and composing)... but when I mentioned Ste. Anne's Reel, he didn't recognize the title, nor recognize the tune when I hummed it. So I decided not to go to him, pretty much based on this reason.

I've been wondering if I was being unfair making a decision because of one tune... but geez, Ste. Anne's isn't just any tune.

Marion

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:16 PM

I was just writing a little note to someone I know who shows real promise at the songwriting trade...she writes with originality, quirkyness, AND knows a lot of the rules (which is important), when I thought about starting something on "natural" talent, as opposed to just plain ol' hard work. Discovered this.

Wonder how Escamillo is.

Rick

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: MK
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 12:42 PM

Well I must be one of the lucky ones.

I have wanted to play music ever since I was about 2 1/2 years old. When I visit my parents and look at pictures of myself back then, (between 2 and 4 years old) I always have some sort of plastic instrument in my hands be it a clarinet, ukelele, guitar or a little piano....so the writing was on the wall almost from the get go.

When I was 5 (I'm 46 now) my ''calling'' happened as a result of watching the Ed Sullivan show with my parents one Sunday night, and Liberace came on, and played a couple of tunes, and I was totally blown away. My mother tells me that I said to her, ''I want to play piano just like him --but I don't want to be like him.''

A few weeks later my parents bought an old Heinzman upright and I started taking lessons. It was immediately apparent to my teacher that I ''had it''....course I never understood what all the fuss was about....it just seemed as natural as breathing to me.

By the time I was 11, I had completed all classical studies and had gone as far as I could go with Royal Conservatory of Music. .....so I began with a new teacher who taught me the styles of ragtime, and blues...and of course whatever I could lift with my ears from all the records I'd be listening to..

(I'm starting to ramble so I'll cut this short...) These days my main passion / hobby is finger style guitar....but regardless of whatever instruments I've learned to play, I have never ever considered practising to be WORK.

I lose all track of time when I practise as opposed to ''watching the clock'' to see how long I've been at it. I have and still continue to be amazed that the sounds that come out of the instruments I play are being created by me. That's just freaks me out, and gives me such a buzz, that it feeds me and drives me forward to improve and make even more interesting and complex sounds.

A lot of the time, it's as if I'm sitting beside myself ''witnessing'' myself playing. A feeling I cannot describe but I am sure there are others here who know exactly what I'm talking about.

Some people have an affinity for picking up languages and linguistic nuances....others have a talent for art, etc.. For me it's instruments and music. I don't know where I get it from as no one else in my family is musical at all --so they all kind of revere me....and ''force'' me to play at any family gathering.

I have a niece and nephew (10 and 14) who are taking piano and guitar lessons, and I occassionaly show them tricks and licks and things. They think their old 46 year old uncle is such a ''cool dude''. Cracks me up.

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 12:00 PM

The all-time, numero uno, single most important teaching prop I have ever purchased has been the Yamaha "220" keyboard, with "REPEAT" function. I can't tell you how helpful that silly little machine has been. Probably cut the learning time in half, for the majority of my students. Sadly, the dorks at Yamaha don't make it anymore.
Rick

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Duckboots
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 11:53 AM

KATHY WESTRA. Wonderful post. Finally, I understand where Robert Johnson (and Led Zeppelin)came up with the great line "YOU CAN SQUEEZE MY LEMON BABY, TIL THE JUICE RUN DOWN MY WRIST"!
Duckboots

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Wesley S
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 11:35 AM

My first music teacher in Jr High - Stanley Davis - said that we couldn't pick up out intruments until we could spell the word rhythm. We were expected to spell it correctly on every test after that. We were also expected - reguardless of the instrument we played - to know the names of the rudements of rhythm such as flamadiddels and paradiddels. As a trombone player I couldn't figure that out at the time.

He also made sure that we knew enough about scales that if a visitor came in the room that they could call out a scale and the the entire orchestra could play it correctly the first time.

He may sound like a tough teacher but an important lesson that he gave us was that we should take pride in being part of a team. That there were no unimportant parts in the band. That we were part of something larger. He was loved dearly by everyone who worked with him.

I've been self taught on guitar and mandolin but I remember something I heard from Mr Davis and in some televised lessons by Pete Seegar. That when you are trying to learn something difficult and you just can't get it - make sure that the last thing you play when you put your instrument down is something you already know and can play well. That way your last "memory" of playing music is a sense of accomplishment - not frustration.

Thanks for reminding me of Stanley Davis

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 06:15 PM

Just wanted to thank Rick for creating this wonderful Thread.
The contributions have been insightful.
As a music student, it is 'thread gems' like this one that make the Mudcat a rare & valuable resource of information.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: MTed
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 05:02 PM

Rick,

I knew that....just mistyped and missed it, my bifocals don't help anymore, so I have gone back to the single focus, til I can afford to buy a Gibson 180--Odd designation system indeed, and not consistantly followed I have one of the old gold finished ES-295, which was a 175 with gold finish and white pick-ups, it cost about $20 more--

I loved the old L-48 and L-50 archtops, which once upon a time, were cheap and allowed you to practice rock and jazz stuff without an amp--once upon a time, not long ago, you could pick one up at a music store for 25-50 bucks, if you didn't mind the snears from the guys who were showing off on the Martins--

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 04:00 PM

Charles Rosen (God of music critics) has an interesting article in a recent New York Review of Books which is about "Learning to Play the Piano". He starts out with a conversation he had with a great pianist -- I think it was Dinu Lipatti -- who said that he hadn't tucked his thumb under, doing scales, in 35 years. The rest of the article is about all the weird fads that have prevented/"assisted" piano students down through the years.
yours, Peter T.
P.S. Do any of you experts know of a set of pictures or diagrams that show how Django Reinhardt chorded, given his supposed limitations? Pure thread creep, but I was thinking about my stupid fingers today, and the thought crept into my mind. How about him for an inspiration for all of us 10-fingered types? (not to mention Paul Wittgenstein -- one sits and listens to him with complete awe)....

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 02:55 PM

Feels good, doesn't it Kath?
Ted. Don't believe Gibson has invented the Super "500" yet. Freddie may very well have played the "super 400". Named by the way, cause it cost 400 bucks. Odd way to designate guitars but they did it with Es 150s, 125, 175s etc. Course Martin named theirs after battleships eg: Dreadnought (all the "D" guitars)
Rick

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: KathWestra
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 02:39 PM

When I was a child, I really, really wanted to play the cello. But my mom (who had never had piano lessons and wanted to make up for that deficiency by giving them to her daughter) said I had to take piano first. I took my piano lessons from the late Mamie Malinowski in Grand Rapids, Mich. Everything she did made me hate the piano. Worst was insisting that I play with my fingers curved, even though I had really little hands that wouldn't reach more than about a fifth without flattening them out over the keys. To remedy my bad flattening-out habit, she made me play everything with a lemon in my hand. (My range became limited to about a fourth using that technique.) This was NOT the right way to teach me.

When mom finally relented and let me take cello lessons, my music "took off." My teacher, Deanna Mitchell, prescribed exercises and taught proper technique, but I wanted so very much to play that wonderful singing instrument that I was willing to do whatever it took. When I was in high school, I heard a recording of Jacqueline duPre playing the Hayden C major cello concerto -- a piece that had just been discovered, and that Mrs. Mitchell had never heard, much less played. I wanted to play it so much that she and I learned the concerto together. What a terrific experience. I still have a reel-to-reel tape of my first full-length recital playing that piece. It was a true thrill, and that experience epitomizes to me what good teaching is all about.

My biggest thrill as a cello teacher while I was in college was reminiscent of the Hayden experience. I had a young student, a twelve-year-old boy, very new to the cello, who wanted more than anything in the world to play in the pick-up orchestra that accompanied the annual "Singalong Messiah" organized by his uncle. It was a tremendous stretch of his technical abilities, but working with him to help him realize his dream, and seeing him get creditably through the entire performance, was a great inspiration to me. He learned more by doing something that made a difference in his world than he ever would have learned studying technique.

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: MTed
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 01:43 PM

Joan,

When I started to teach, I went back and talked to a bunch of my old folkie friends, mostly to find out why they didn't play anymore--they all told me basically the same thing--that as time went by, they started listening to different music that the kind they had learned to play, and they couldn't make the transition--

I told my students that playing the guitar meant being able to do what you wanted to do with it--if you didn't want to do anything, and you didn't know how to do anything, you were a perfect musician--if you knew what you wanted to do, you could learn easily, but if you didn't know what you wanted to do, no matter how many scales or chords or whatever you could play, you had nothing--

As to the electric music, it is perfectly possible for a single player to play all that stuff, it just sounds different amplified, and unaccompanied--furthermore, I would even say there is a lot of question about what really even would be "Traditional" guitar--given that the closed position, flat or plectrum picked rhythm/lead playing that emerged in the 50's and 60's had really been used in popular American Music since the 20's and had been used, particularly in Italian, Portugese, and Spanish Music for a long time before that--

Rick,

I thought that Freddie had played one of those Gibson Super 500's at one point, as well--

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 10:06 PM

Ted. Freddie played L5s, Emperors, and even a Stromberg. Saw a picture of him holding a D'Angelico, but I don't think it was his.
Rick

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Joan
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 09:52 PM

This thread hits home. I taught folk guitar for years starting about 1968. People came for lessons from someone who taught folk-style flat and finger picking, but often they often didn't have a clue about what they wanted to hear themselves do. The ones who learned fastest, and were really ready to practice were the ones who had songs and tunes in their "mind's ear." I'd get them to bring a recording of a favorite thing...or if they didn't have one, I'd play and sing some goodies with simple chord progressions and work with that. It helped for them to hear the style and energy and techniques, and know THAT's the way they wanted to hear themselves play. Taught a kid who barely had a few chords down to fingerpick after he listened to a recording and asked,"What's he doing?" He just loved the sound he'd heard and was purely motivated to get it right.

After the folk scare, a new problem came along. My students heard rock music on the media and wanted to play that. Well, trad person that I am, I couldn't teach them that music. What they heard on the media was a bag if electronic tricks and miracles that couldn't be reproduced by one individual and one guitar. They'd get turned off by comparing the gentle stuff coming out of their instruments.

Anyway, the main idea of all this, is that I think it's easy to teach someone with above average manual dexterity and a good ear. But anyone who has a clear idea of what he/she wants to sound like, and has had the opportunity to hear a lot of "our" kinda music can be taught to play. Some want it so badly they play all day at home, others are disciplined enough to practice so they get past the hard parts and start having fun. Still others decide they'd rather play sports after school, or really don't want to cut their beautiful, long nails, or think they'll take up the clarinet instead. That's okay, too.

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: jeffp
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 11:55 AM

A comment or two from the student's perspective. Rick, you're absolutely right about trying to change ingrained bad playing habits. I started playing guitar self-taught in high school. After I dropped out of college I decided to take some lessons because I had "hit the wall" and couldn't get better no matter what I tried. The first lesson, my teacher showed me the proper way to hold the pick. I went through two frustrating weeks trying to unlearn the bad way and learn the good. For a while I couldn't do either. Finally I got it and it made a big difference, but I almost quit playing entirely.

Recently, I started playing the fiddle and took lessons almost from the start. I got really frustrated because I was always comparing my playing to my teacher's. It seemed like I would never get it. Then I went to Irish Week at the Augusta Heritage Center and took a beginning fiddle class. Amazingly, I was about in the middle of the class in terms of ability. I came home feeling much better about myself. I went back this past summer and took another beginning fiddle class with another instructor and, lo and behold, I was near the top of the class and was able to help a couple of the other students.

I think the lesson from this is you are neither as good or as bad as you think you are. There will always be people who play better or worse. Learn from the former and help the latter. You'll learn from that too.

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 11:06 AM

Rick said a couple of things that reminded me of working with small children.

If an adult student has "stage fright" so bad that they cannot play the instrument in front of even their instructor...try playing in front of small children. They love you even when you make mistakes.

Also, Rick mentioned tuning the guitar to an open D...whatever that is ;-) A really neat idea for a children's program is to line up about 12 little folks each with their (Mom or Dad's) own guitar...tune each group of three or so to a different chord...and let them strum a song much like a bell choir, coming in on their chord. Warning though...you need some help with the logistics of all those little people and their parents' guitars!

Mary

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: MTed
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 12:31 AM

Rick,

Any time you want, I am game--although, as they used to say, "I can hear it, but I can't touch it" also, I am told that, no matter how good you are, you can't copy Freddie's sound without the guitar, and I am pulling my hair out, because I can't quite remember what he played--

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Áine
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 12:22 AM

Dear MTed,

I knew where you were going with your post previously -- I just felt the need to 'creep the thread' -- It's amazing how that wee soap box under my desk keeps tickling my toes; so, every once in a while I just *have* to step up on it...And I agree with you about present day venues.

May I offer my humble opinion on why things are in the present day state of affairs -- familiarity breeds contempt. Think about it -- pick out 20 people on your main street and ask them who their city councilmen or councilwomen are (or their equivalent). I bet you'd get some blank stares on that one. Ask the same 20 people to name their favorite movie/music/sports stars, and I bet you wouldn't be able to shut them up!

These 'stars' and/or 'celebrities' are in our faces every day. Thus, most people come to the opinion that whatever these 'stars' do must be fairly easy, since there are (apparently) so many of them doing it.

Oh dear, I seemed to have stepped on my wee box again. Sorry. I'll step down and let you talk amongst yourselves.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: MTed
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 12:07 AM

I didn't mean to suggest that there had not always been women with musical aspirations, I was just noting that these days, there seem to be a lot more women that are willing to pursue them--a good thing!!

I wonder about what it is that they (or anyone going into the "music business" today) are pursuing---people (men and women) who go after music career today are like those people who used to go over Niagra Falls in a barrel--they get one shot, and they either make it and become incredibly famous, or they are smashed to pieces on the rocks--

Maybe it was always like that, but it seems worse today--and as I think about it, Given that America seems to be the point of origin for so much of of contemporary popular music, doesn't it seem odd that the general view of music and musicians ranges from apathy to antagonism?

Once, there were lots of clubs, and people would actually get dressed up to go to them, and they could see real musicians playing real music, sometimes even "folk" musicians--and it was possible for a musician to play in places like that and make a decent living--even if they did occassionally have to give accordian or sax lessons--

Sorry, I got carried away there--

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Áine
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 12:06 AM

Dearest Miss Banjo Bonnie:

YOU GO GIRL!!

Luv, Áine

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 11:36 PM

In my innocence I used to think that only commercial record companies (big time rock, pop, country etc.) based their signings and promotional efforts on the sex appeal of the artist (male OR female). 'Tis not so. Every "respected" folk label that wanted to sell as many records as they could operated in the same way. Yes there have been instances where older and less pretty folks climbed the ladder, but check out the top 100 (or 1000) selling pop or country (or what's perceived as folk) artists and tell me that the pretty or the freaky don't outnumber the plain 100 to one.
Ted. How 'bout I come to YOU, for some of that Freddie Green stuff? We'll take turns playin' lead while the other comps. I know HOW they work, but I sure can't make 'em sound like HE did.
Rick

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Escamillo
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 11:36 PM

I've studied classical guitar many years ago, but that's past, I want to point out some characteristics of my vocal teacher. His name is Guy De Kehrig, and he's had a wonderful career as a tenor in Europe and Argentina, now he is with the permanent staff at the Colon Theatre.
When he proposes a vocal exercise, he sings it for me first, then waits for me to start. If I, humorously ask him :"with THAT excellent quality ?", he replies: "NO ! MUCH BETTER !"
When something goes well, he can't hide out his enthusiasm: "GOOD ! THAT'S BEAUTIFUL! "
When something goes wrong, he may say : "A PITY! IT WAS SO NEAR ! LET'S TRY LATER" and make some comments on how HE failed many times and how he tried to correct his mistakes.
Indeed I agree with Banjo Bonnie and would consider this teacher as an excellent navigator. He makes you feel that YOU CAN.

Yours, Andrés Magré (another Rick's fan since got a CD from Peter T) :)

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 11:02 PM

I keep wanting to get into the serious side of this regarding teaching and what it takes to do the job. Unfortunately it would be a diatribe about the problems involved in the American school systems and not about music, although that's a problem too. I can tell that Rick does a great job just from talking to him, reading his posts and his "teaching" threads. So instead, I'll just give you the "normal catspaw bullshit." ie:

LESSONS AVAILABLE ** POSSUM ASS TOODLING

Spaw

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 10:59 PM

Want to know why I chose to learn the banjo?
Because if any man tried to 'hit on me', it is a great instrument to smash over someone's head.

BB

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Áine
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 10:25 PM

Dear MTed,

May I humbly suggest that there have *always* been women who had musical aspirations -- and so much unappreciated, ignored and discouraged talent -- that is has always been insane, sick, pathetic, and unfair for them to have been treated thusly.

Even though it saddens me to see so many of the young women who have 'made it' in the larger aspects of the music world demeaned by having to pander to a sexually oriented marketplace, I am heartened to see that at last there is a contingent of women showing the world that they *can* create and perform with the *big boys*.

The next step I would like to see them take is creating and performing on their own terms, not those imposed on them from the outside. Time will tell, though, won't it?

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: MTed
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 09:54 PM

Blank was me, again--sorry!!

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From:
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 09:34 PM

Rick,

You are one of the good ones (sadly, one of all too few), and I say that because you have that approach which is that you try to get your student there no matter what it takes...If I wasn't so far away, I would come by and have you teach me some of those Freddie Green chords or something..

You do mention something else that I have noticed, which is a fairly deep and persistant form of sexism among music teachers, and, even if they don't hit on women, a lot of teachers ignore them, do subtle(or not so subtle) things to discourage them, and are generally cold and convey that they don't take them at all seriously--

Again, this is insane, from the teachers point of view, simply because there are so many more women today who have musical aspirations--but it is also sick, pathetic, and unfair, especially among people who claim to have a special sensitivity because they are "artists"...

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 08:10 PM

Well Ian....since you mentioned it...I was going to steer clear of this, but...I've encountered quite a number of absolutely horrendous teachers. If you see a sign that says "Lessons..accordion, bass, trumpet, piano, sax, guitar..etc." Run like hell. NEVER, NEVER pay for more than one lesson at a time when you're just starting with someone. Use your noggin and see whether your new teacher has a clue about the kind of music you want to go into. If the vibe isn't there at the beginning, it won't be later. Don't be afraid to say you're not comfortable if you're not. I've had four women come to me in the last couple of years because another instructor hit on them...during the FIRST lesson yet!
The easiest (for me) person to work with is someone who's been playing for a couple of years and knows what direction they want to go in, or a veteran player with good habits who wants to learn some flashier stuff or tricks to make things easier. The hardest is someone who has played for many years but because of some flaw (that's become really ingrained) feels they haven't improved for a long time. In that case you almost have to go right back to the beginning, and that came be emotionally difficult for both player and instructor.
One of the things I do that is radical but I've found to be very useful (after the initial shock) is to ask folks who come earlier to sit in on someone else's session. It kind of demystifies the process and after all, I want people to get to the point where they don't worry about making mistakes in front of others. Doesn't work for everyone though, so I don't push it. It hasn't been uncommon to have someone who came for a 7 oclock session still there at midnight. Some sessions have turned into impromtu jams...and that's where you REALLY learn.
My feeling is that EVERYONE can learn, even if comes down to another instrument than the one they started on. I mentioned earlier about a few folks that I just couldn't help no matter how hard I tried...but that was a few years ago and I've learned a lot since then. Wish I could try again with them.
Rick

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Áine
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 06:50 PM

MTed,

There is a place on the 'Cat where you can notify Max & Co. about the problem you're having -- click here - and post to this thread. I'm sure that someone will help you out very soon.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: MTed
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 06:41 PM

Áine,

I did as you suggested, and when I entered my address, I was told that my file had been updated, then I was told that my info wasn't found--I tried to reregister, and was told that I was already registered, when I tried to use it, it wasn't there--any other suggestions?

Lamarca,

The big problem is that every guitar teacher has to make their own decisions about what a student needs to learn, and then develop their own excercises, drills, and methodology for teaching--(except for classical guitar, which is a whole other thing)--a few people do a good job at this, and they are mostly really good players who feel a need to pass on what they know (as opposed to mediocre players who have a need for money)--but most teachers haven't been properly prepared to do this sort of work, and fall very short--

Then there is the politics of music thing--which is to say, the deal where the teacher/player has the view that no matter what type music anyone wants to learn how to play, the only stuff that is important is what the teacher wants to play--

My friend Bob, who plays everything from blue grass to classical, has pointed out that on piano, it doesn't matter what kind of music you play, the piano always works pretty much the same way, but with guitar, there are a whole bunch of different ways to play that have nothing much to do with each other-

Ask a Travis-Picker to show you some Reggae, or a Blue Grass flat-picker how to play a Jimi Hendrix lick, or a speed metal player to show you some Jobim-- and see what kind of response you get!! The techniques don't have much to do with each other, and the people generally don't have much to do with each other either!!!!

Each genre has its own bag of tricks, its own feel, and it's own body of material--your teacher has to know the genre in order to teach it to you--or they have to be crazy enough to want to figure it out!!

As to figuring it out yourself--well, a lot of people do, but it takes a long time, because it takes not only a good ear, but a good knowledge of the instrument, because it isn't enough to just be able to hear something, you've still got to figure out how to get the instrument to make the sound--

The best thing is to be someplace that you can hear and see people playing the kind of music that you like--and then get someone to show you some stuff--

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: lamarca
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 06:14 PM

Amen, Peter! Many of my friends who ARE good instrumentalists who started as adults, did so at a time in their lives when they were un- or under-employed and/or alone. Making music, wrapping themselves around an instrument and really learning how to play was a wonderful escape from a rather dreary world. When you have an already full life of work, home, friends and hobbies, you have to be especially driven to take up an instrument from scratch!

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 06:00 PM

To me the most important thing about teaching is to remember what it was like when you were a novice. For some mysterious reason, 99% of teachers, professors, etc., have lost that memory, or ignore it, or something. I am always trying to put myself in my students' place -- which can be frightening! -- but if you can't do that, it seems to me you will always be way over their head or wasting their time. The other thing, which no one seems to have mentioned yet, is that you have to be in love with your subject. I think even a mediocre teacher can help students, if they are passionate about their subject: students (in my experience of university) are desperate for something to love, which is of course a distant second to the first thing on their minds, i.e., somebody to love; but it is still in the ballpark.

As a guitar student (of Rick's), I think the hardest thing in the other direction is for an adult student to articulate what is wrong or right, or what they want or need, partly because one doesn't know, but also because it is complicated and usually snarled in personality and old practices and a whole pile of other knots. This makes it hard on the teacher to figure out what is best. I think one related adult problem (for newish students) is to figure out what role music is going to play in an already fully formed (or mostly fully formed life). In this sense teenagers may have it easier, because they are using music, or romantic images, to shape themselves the first time around; and they have the time to fight and make mistakes, and so on. For adults with bad, mediocre, or non-existent histories with music -- or with a lifetime of listening, not playing -- I think a shift in music's role can be a very complex challenge to one's very developed sense of self, competence, expectations. Also -- I speak from bitter personal experience -- even with the best will in the world, it is extremely hard, even if driven, to find practice time when you are a fulltime working adult. Some people seem to thrive on the "a change is as good as a rest" principle, but these seem to me to be a certain personality type: the rest of us just die at the end of a day. Of course, a little less Mudcat time......(ha)

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: lamarca
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 05:23 PM

This is a really interesting discussion to read. I'm a person who has never learned to play an instrument (beyond being able to plunk or pick out a simple tune). I can't seem to get beyond the frustration of being a beginner with wonderful music running through my head, but the inability to make my fingers do what I'm "hearing" RIGHT AWAY!

Be it piano or guitar or mandolin or hammered dulcimer or concertina (all of which I've played just enough to pick out tunes REAL slowly), I either have a real short attention span or lack that "drive" to practice on my own. I can read music, and I can play by ear, but once you start adding in chords, arpeggios and the like, I get lost. The one instrument I feel I have control of is my voice, and working at singing has never seemed like "work" to me - all the other instruments always did.

Do many people have the problem that the music they love to listen to is done by masters of the instrument, and they get frustrated by not being able to be that good?

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Ian Stephenson
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 05:10 PM

Cool Thread rick. Nice intro!

I've had a lot of bad experience with guitar teachers playing stuff "by the book", but the latest bightmare I had was "electric and acoustic popular guitar" lessons. I was told he was in with the folk scene, and, granted, he could play a one row melodeon, but he'd never played folk on the guitar, or jazz.
So I went to his lessons being really posative waiting for him to prove me wrong.....tick tock....dong....time up
By the forth lesson my lessons consisted of half an hour of him showing me a jazz chord and asking me to name exactly what chord name it was. He got his kicks not from the fact that he taught me anything, but that if I got a bit wrong So he was a bad teacher for me.

The wierdest experience I've ever had actually teaching guitar was when I was a guest guitar teacher for a friends school folk band and I had to take seven 13 year old boys out of the room on my own, and show them some cool techniques to get them into the rythm of it all and start to explore a little. One lad was asking some strange remarks, ie. "I don't want to be a musician...theres no money in it,....why do YOU want to be a..." and other really strange questions.
so I got back to my friends house, and she is asking me how it went, I say "great...,hey, that johnny is a bit of a character, isn't he!"
And with that she went into a stream about how he always misbehaves etc. and was he giving me trouble etc., and before I can say a word shes walking about mumbling to herself.
The next week I hear that she has banned him altogether from the folk band due to misbehaviour at my workshop.....OH DEAR.. I think me has been an excuse to get rid of him? I still felt REALLY GUILTY!
Cheers all,
Ian

Subject: Lyr Add: CEAD MILE FAILTE
From: bunkerhill
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 04:29 PM

To this perennial novice, this is a reassuring thread. I've felt very sorry for my teachers, who play so beautifully -- and then they had to listen to me rattling the strings for a half or 45. Here's a little waltz in G I found, titled Cead Mile Failte, that says it's "dedicated to a teacher of music" and by implication seems to be dedicated to all music teachers.

1. Oh, wizard I beg hear my plea, won't you sing me a map to the key,
that can un-lock a heart, near to bursting apart,
with music that yearns to be free, with music that yearns to be free.

2. He said go where the mute swans do sing,
Go where Scylla wears blue in the spring,
Swing your case, full of hope, up a challenging slope,
Twist the dragon's tail and he rings.

Cho: Cead mile failte, cead mile failte, go where your need will be welcome, Cead mile failte,
Cead mile failte, a hun-dred thousand times welcome.

3. Find a link to the great green neck-lace,
Cross where old Muddy River once raced,
Hear elegant fingers delight silver strings,
Where these words mark a magical place, where these words (etc.)

Chorus.

4. Comes a day when your lessons are o'er,
Though, apprentice, you must learn much more,
Make a friend out of time, Gentle touch sounds the chime,
Let these words from an unlocked heart pour.

2nd chorus: Go raibh maith aggot,
Go raibh maith aggot,
May much good be upon you,
Go raibh cead mile maith aggot, Go raibh cead mile maith aggot,
A hundred thousand times, thank you. A hundred thousand times, thank you.

(line breaks added by a Joe Clone)

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Áine
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 03:29 PM

MTed,

Go to the top of the page, and click the down arrow on the box that says 'Quick Links'. Highlight 'Reset Cookie', click on the 'Go' button and see if that doesn't set things right again.

-- Áine

P.S. I enjoyed your posting very much, so please don't get lost in cyberspace again!

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: MTed
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 03:04 PM

This teaching reminiscence was me, but my cookie is gone, and my membership seems to have evaporated!

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From:
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 02:01 PM

When I taught guitar, I worked mostly with classes--I found that classes work best for beginners(most of my students were adults of one sort or another) because they give each other moral support--Also, it is a great relief to be take turns struggling and being corrected, rather than being under the gun all the time--

I found also, as you observed, that most guitar teachers/music stores/schools don't care about beginners, that is to say, they dpn't really bother to try and communicate anything important to them, about either the instrument or the music--mostly, they just throw stuff at them as if to say,"Make what you can out of that, and, if you get good, come back, and then maybe I'll teach you something worthwhile."--

I didn't start to be successful with my beginners until I started to thing about what I needed to do to teach them what I new that they needed to learn--

On the first day of class, I always had my students fill out a questionaire, with questions about them, their jobs, the music that they liked, how much other experience they had had with music, et al--then, I read everyone's answers, in turn, to the class, an asked them additional (and often amusing) questions--it was great fun, but it also made them feel like they were part of the group--

I used to tell them that, in order to become guitar players, they had to love to practice--and, no matter what talents that they had, if they couldn't do that, they weren't going to get anywhere--

Most people who came to me said,"I have always wanted to learn to play" or "I have had this nagging in the back of my mind for years that I really should play guitar"--I told them that even if they didn't learn to play in my class, they would find out that there wasn't really a guitar player inside them, and they could get on with their lives.

One the hardest things, for me, was to find material that was both interesting and easy to play--people are motivated to learn when the are learning material that they love, but nine times out of ten, what they love is beyond their ability to handle--I spent most of my time trying to find material--

Most important though, was that, in order to teach anybody anything, I, as the teacher, had to know clearly what I wanted them to do, and I had to have clearly planned out how I was going to get them to do it--

Anyway, Rick, you are right to have your snotty reactions--business be damned--I worked for many years in marketing and know that that sort of cut and dried, by the book attitude is a detriment to running a successul business--

Anyway I miss teaching, I had to give it up, as I had to give up my performing, because of some serious health problems--I found that teaching required that I listen to music more that I analyzed more and that I thought more about what I was doing, as a musician--

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 01:24 PM

Excellent point Tony.
But to complicate matters even more, I believe I would be one of those people who you would have to drag away from their instrument. The problem is that I allow the things I think I am supposed to be doing get in the way of what I really want to be doing.
As the old saying goes......"I am my own worst enemy".
Somehow, I feel the discipline of practice helps me move beyond this issue.

BB

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Tony Burns
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 12:50 PM

Let me throw this thought out. There is a big difference between the desire to do something and being driven to do it. I'll use sports as an example as I've given it some thought. There are many people who fall in love with a particular sport and take part every chance they get. That's desire and if that's all you've got you may be very good at the sport but you won't make it to the Olympics. If you are driven you not only practice the sport in question but you train in other ways. You do weight training, aerobics, ... You not only get a coach for your sport you get other types of coaches, motivators, ... You give up other pleasures. If your sport is seasonal you travel to follow the season.

It works best if the drive comes from within but perhaps it can be imposed parent to child. If it is imposed and not matched eventually by the drive from within it will die eventually. Mozart's father may have pushed the young Mozart along but without the internal drive it would not have lasted. The initial push may be good to encourage the drive from within.

Musically I bet you can separate those with desire from those with drive by looking at who sets aside a specific time and duration to practice. Those who are driven practice without applying a structure. You probably have to drag them away from their instrument(s).

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 11:57 AM

Thanks for the feedback friends.
Dealing with my failures (this word doesn't trouble me in the least) is part of it too. While continuing to read my journals I've discovered that I was able to make virtually no headway at all with about 10 people. With some, I tried so many different approaches that it bordered on the ludicrous. Here's one suggestion that has seemed to work consistently for the last 5 years.
Some people are EXTREMELY visual. If they can't see what they're doing immediately in front of them, it gets frustrating and they are likely to quit. I tune their guitar to an open D (DADF#AD), get them to lay it on their lap, and use "two finger" "4" and "5" chords. This approach has managed to bring a number of folks back from the brink of "screw this, I'll never learn!" Just getting them to strum "Skip to My Lou" with "D" and "A" gets them playing.
Rick

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 11:46 AM

Then I probably lean towards the left. I remember a coumputer test once. You answered a bunch of questions and it told you whether you were more of a visual vs auditory learner.

Bonnie - I'm with you.

I have a navigator, who guides on my way,
Who plots the course I travel, around pitfalls where they lay,
I know where I'm starting from and where I want to go,
But the best way to get there, I don't know.

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From:
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 11:30 AM

When I taught guitar, I worked mostly with classes--I found that classes work best for beginners(most of my students were adults of one sort or another) because they give each other moral support--Also, it is a great relief to be take turns struggling and being corrected, rather than being under the gun all the time--

I found also, as you observed, that most guitar teachers/music stores/schools don't care about beginners, that is to say, they dpn't really bother to try and communicate anything important to them, about either the instrument or the music--mostly, they just throw stuff at them as if to say,"Make what you can out of that, and, if you get good, come back, and then maybe I'll teach you something worthwhile."--

I didn't start to be successful with my beginners until I started to thing about what I needed to do to teach them what I new that they needed to learn--

On the first day of class, I always had my students fill out a questionaire, with questions about them, their jobs, the music that they liked, how much other experience they had had with music, et al--then, I read everyone's answers, in turn, to the class, an asked them additional (and often amusing) questions--it was great fun, but it also made them feel like they were part of the group--

I used to tell them that, in order to become guitar players, they had to love to practice--and, no matter what talents that they had, if they couldn't do that, they weren't going to get anywhere--

Most people who came to me said,"I have always wanted to learn to play" or "I have had this nagging in the back of my mind for years that I really should play guitar"--I told them that even if they didn't learn to play in my class, they would find out that there wasn't really a guitar player inside them, and they could get on with their lives.

One the hardest things, for me, was to find material that was both interesting and easy to play--people are motivated to learn when the are learning material that they love, but nine times out of ten, what they love is beyond their ability to handle--I spent most of my time trying to find material--

Most important though, was that, in order to teach anybody anything, I, as the teacher, had to know clearly what I wanted them to do, and I had to have clearly planned out how I was going to get them to do it--

Anyway, Rick, you are right to have your snotty reactions--business be damned--I worked for many years in marketing and know that that sort of cut and dried, by the book attitude is a detriment to running a successul business--

Anyway I miss teaching, I had to give it up, as I had to give up my performing, because of some serious health problems--I found that teaching required that I listen to music more that I analyzed more and that I thought more about what I was doing, as a musician--

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 11:20 AM

Jeri--That is a very oversimplified test. I also test "balanced" brain shall we call it. But I prefer the right brain, and I like the visualization better. It's really not how fast you do the test, or how many you get right, but which method you prefer. (Most of us prefer the things we are best at.)

Mary

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 10:43 AM

Studently Speaking..........This is a great thread!

From my experience, there is an art to being a good instructor. There are times I need praise, and other times I'm told to pick up my progress or I'll miss the boat.
Sometimes my work is 'down played' because my head is clogged with grandeur.
A good instructor is kind of like a skipper who knows how to navigate and sail the boat.
Though I may have an excellent instructor, it is still up to me to do the work. No matter how much potential I may have, I'm still in the boat with every other student. If I don't put 'My All' into it; if I don't follow through and practice what I am being taught, doesn't matter how gifted I may be, I'll never be a musician.
Personally, Captain Fielding runs a mighty fine ship.
I've never yet had to walk the plank, but once in a while he does make me scrub the deck to keep me humble and hard working.

Banjo Bonnie

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 10:18 AM

...And then theres "no brained."

Rick, when I got my fiddle, my mom looked for a cheap on because 1)we didn't have much money, and 2) she knew I was going to get tired of it and quit after a few weeks or months.

Stuff comes easy to me at first, and I'm fine as long as I don't have to work very hard. I learned on from my own. I knew a lot of tunes in my head, and I could read a little bit of music when I started. When I started hitting tunes that were harder to play, I tried to learn them for a while, gave up and went back to the easier tunes - but the difficult tunes got into my head even if I couldn't play them. Eventually I got to the point where I could play most of them.

I never did quit playing fiddle when the going got rough, which is what I've done with practically everything else in my life, except computers. I think the reason I stuck with the fiddle is because I wanted to play with other people. If I couldn't imagine doing that one day, I think I would have dropped it.

I took banjo lessons once, and can still play a little. The one single thing that was most valuable about those lessons was that the teacher taught the entire first class on music theory. I don't know if I would have wanted to learn that if given a choice, but the knowledge has been invaluable. Of course, if he'd insisted on us learning nothing but scales and chords, I wouldn't have stayed in the class.

(I think I'm middle-brained from Mary's test - I can't do either thing faster. Is there such a thing?)

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From:
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 10:07 AM

I don't teach music, but I firmly believe and advise others that the most important part of learning music is learning what it's supposed to sound like before you try to play it. Otherwise it's like learning to type in a language that you don't know. Sure you can learn that way, but the whole process of expressiveness is taken out of the loop. I know there's been tons of research on prodigies, but it seems usually that they are the ones who had exposure to music that clicked just right with their receptive brains and they took off with it. Play music for children! Maybe you can get them before their peers do.

Chet

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: MMario
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 10:03 AM

'Spaw, you got that egzactly! Cletus is helping you on the 'puter again, ain't he? And Rick? money spent on lobster dinners in NEVER "blown". it's an investment in happiness.

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 09:32 AM

Okay...I think I got it RiB!

With the mouse I move the cursor to highlight the thing I want to copy. Then while holding the right button which is really the left, you move to Nome and click on abread pudding that's lounging on a downtown park bench in a blizzard. Then drag the pudding to the copy box and click on your left nut. When the dialog box appears, scratch yourself until the bread pudding becomes a meat loaf and then doubble click on "disposal" and when the whirring sound atarts, hit your CPU with an ax and throw the pieces down. Decide to refer to everyone as Scnickelfritz.

Schnickelfritz

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 08:56 AM

Here's a teaching tip that worked for me.

At one time I had approximately 25 piano students. One was extremely left-brained and one was extremely right-brained. The rest were somewhere inbetween.

The right-brained girl was 12 years old and didn't read well. I would let her hear me play a song and then imitate it. We concentrated on expression and feeling the phrasing. Reading was so difficult for her we would "see" the notes as groups of chords, and we would "feel" them before we read them. Only after she could play a song reasonably well did we go back and read the notes while we played.

The left-brained girl could read and play notes, but it never sounded like music. We spent time with duets and playing everything possible from memory.

A simple test for right-brain vs. left-brain is to ask the student to 1)name all the letters of the alphabet which rhyme with e. 2)name all the letters of the alphabet which have a curved portion in the capital letter. Then ask which was easier. LB people prefer #1 and RB people prefer #2.

Of course we're all a combination of LB and RB, but a few people are extremes. Using both approaches seems to help most people. Most of us prefer to learn new material using our strengths, then improve our weaknesses using the music we've already learned.

Another idea for beginniners who don't always have others to play with is to play along with a tape that they (or you) have made. I agree with your observation that those who play and participate will continue.

Mary

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 06:22 AM

Rick,

Here's an HTML tip I learned from Joe O.. If you don't know how to do something, copy someone else's work. So to get Áine's name right, you just go up to the "from" on her post. Place your cursor to the left of Áine. Now press down on the left mouse button and while holding it down, scan over the whole name. This should highlight it for you. If you are using Netscape, release the button (it should stay highlighted) and go up to Edit in the top toolbar. When you click on Edit, you get a menu. Click on Copy. Then go back to where you want to place Áine,s name. Place the cursor there, then go back up to Edit. Click and get the menu. Click on Paste. Then you should have it. You still don't know how Áine does it, but who cares?

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 01:53 AM

Hi Aine (sorry I don't know how to do that thing over the "A")
I know exactly what you mean. I work with someone right now who's got finger dexterity to burn, and I can't help but say "ok, now try THIS!" Drives them nuts at times but I know this person likes a challenge...and they're improving rapidly. Wouldn't do that with most folks though!
The closest I ever came to earning what a CEO (or employed security guard) would get was when I worked 6 nights a week at the Royal York Hotel. Just blew it on antique instruments, antequarian books and lobster dinners!
Rick

Subject: RE: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Áine
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 01:38 AM

Dear Rick,

As one of those 'prodigy brats' (as my old piano teacher used to call us), I'd have to say that the best music teachers I had were the ones that remained totally UNDERimpressed with whatever ability I had. All I ever wanted to be was challenged -- NOT made to do the baby steps. I was composing my own songs and one teacher of mine was intent that I learn 'Every Good Boy Does Fine'.

The best teachers I had were the ones that said 'Big deal, so you can do THAT. Betcha can't do THIS!' They pissed me off and that was what made me want to stretch beyond what I was capable of then.

Dealing with gifted children can be a real pain in the butt -- I know, I have three gifted children -- and all in totally different areas - Sometimes I think God must be ROTFLHAO at the payback He's given me to deal with! The major adjustment for a teacher has to be the level of challenge you have to give to these kids. And knowing when to say 'You've gone beyond what I can teach you. Let's find someone who can take you to the next level.'

At the same time, they're still kids, and you have to keep your subject fun AND interesting. This is one reason I think that teachers should be earning the salaries that CEOs earn -- teachers really EARN their money!!

So there ya go, that's my two cents on the matter. Take care, Áine

Subject: Musical prodigy vs.Hard workers
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Dec 99 - 01:15 AM

Because it's nearing the end of the year, I've been thumbing through the journal I keep regarding my students. I got engrossed enough to do a quick read of the ones I've kept since I exited the bar world, and started teaching a little over 12 years ago. It's not a progress report or about who learned their G chord in record time, but something to remind me how my approach worked (or didn't) with individual people. Although there is a certain amount of overlapping, the ways I've tried to help people get enjoyment from an instrument certainly have been all over the map. Probably comes from my experiences with teachers, both musical AND academic when I was in my teens. I seemed to have always hooked up with gray unexcitable men and women who not only "went by the book" but probably never questioned whether "it" was the right or only book.
I remember substituting for a friend once who taught at a "mom and pop" music store. Before being ushered into one of the tiny cubicles in the basement, I was handed a Mel Bay book on scales. "This is what we use", said the owner-lady, "your first student is on lesson 7". Despite my occasional emotional outbursts on Mudcat, I'm pretty polite in person, so I didn't say to her "This boring crap? What does the student WANT to play? Who do they listen to? Do they have a clue who Mel Bay is? Do YOU?" And perhaps, to me, most importantly, "Do you REALLY care if this young person has music as a close friend for the rest of their life?" A totally unfair and basically snotty reaction (I have those a lot), 'cause of course the woman was trying to run a business, and the kids were customers, and they paid in advance, and that's the way the world works. It was hardly her concern that her substitute music teacher had a "Johnny Appleseed" complex.
I've kept in touch with many ex students over the years and it gives me such a kick when I'm told how music is such a big part of their lives. Quite a few have released recordings, and in my narrow outlook on the world that's worth far more than the extra bucks I'd have made keeping sessions to a half hour on the dot.
While reading the journals I thought I'd probably find that the 20 or 30 out of 300 or so who were blessed with absolute natural talent and learned more in a couple of hours than most in 3 months, would have made the most progress over the years. Completely wrong. Most of those drifted into other hobbies and interests. 'Course they've always GOT the music, but the passion for it didn't last. The ones who've really kept it up are the ones who got into playing with others, and became part of a music COMMUNITY. Not one of my student-friends who've recorded albums was in that list of "instant" players...but every one of them were people who had found (made) the time to practice, and one day realised that it wasn't "practice" anymore, it was fun!
When I was a kid trying to play some little ditty on the piano, that apparently Mozart had composed while still in the womb, I figured you had to have "natural talent" for all this to work...and I sure didn't! It wasn't til many years later (and after reading much silliness about Mozart's genius being an argument for re-incarnation) that I found out his dad worked the little bugger like a slave. Naturally talented or not, the kid DID the work to become good. Anyway it occurred to me today that my job with my students is more to make that "work" fun, than just about anything else.

If any catters have any teaching tips to share, I would welcome them...or horror stories, cause they're fun too.

Rick