Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Dec 24 - 01:38 AM

There’s no fool like an old fool…

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Dec 24 - 08:08 PM

London Evening Standard report

There are important issues there and not just about the UK. This sort of effort by the state to control artistic expression is going to play out on a bigger scale in MAGAstan shortly.

I have, in the past, generally supported the government's stance.
But, of course, we now have a Labour government.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 06:05 AM

I heard that Caledonia was banned on the BBC before the first Scottish Independence referendum, but I'm not sure if it's a myth?

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 06:37 AM

London Evening Standard report

There are important issues there and not just about the UK. This sort of effort by the state to control artistic expression is going to play out on a bigger scale in MAGAstan shortly.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 03:41 AM

Aren’t ‘Kneecap’ a bunch of Irish rappers? So not really anything to do with ‘Anti-Scottish music funding’ at all?

Maybe better in the ‘Brexit &UK Politics’ thread?

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 04:06 PM

And the Tory politician most responsible for the ban, Kemi Badenoch, became leader of their party a few weeks ago. Polarization anyone?

Definitely supporting the move of this thread to 'below the line'
And possibly looking for its closure as a second UK politics thread.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 12:36 PM

And the Tory politician most responsible for the ban, Kemi Badenoch, became leader of their party a few weeks ago. Polarization anyone?

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 03:58 PM

Thread #173696   Message #4212521

Posted By: GUEST,Peter Laban

29-Nov-24 - 06:56 AM

Thread Name: Withholding Kneecap funding was illegal

Subject: Withholding Kneecap funding was illegal

There was a thread about funding the Arts in the UK in the past where this subject was touched on but this was promptly moved below. So, I can't post this to that particular thread.

The courts in Belfast have decided Withholding funding for Kneecap was illegal So there you have it, politicians can not withdraw allocated funding for the arts just because they don't like what the artist are doing. Seems obvious enough but there you have it.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 24 - 03:00 AM

Gno, gnay, gnever surely?

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Feb 24 - 07:51 PM

Gno, gno, gnever!

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 24 - 10:23 AM

Who are you calling a creep? :-D

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Feb 24 - 11:17 AM

It is still a music thread. Creep notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 12:42 PM

Yes, I do too. A certain Martin Gibson springs to mind! ;-)

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 12:28 PM

I do! It was dreadful :-(

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: gillymor
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 11:15 AM

Do you folks remember what it was like before the B.S. section came into existence. Nastiness pervaded the forum and mucked up some very informative music threads.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 10:59 AM

This thread has become the usual squabble about moderation. Another reason for leaving it below the line.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 06:09 AM

Your perception Dave, but absolutely not mine. Tomahtoes, tomaytoes. Time will tell…

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 05:30 AM

The ruling is clear enough to me. It says that if politics enters ANY thread it will head south and only might have a chance of staying upstairs if it is about music.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 05:18 AM

Aaahh, I’ve seen it now. I don’t think it means what you think it says, Dave. But all that’s necessary in order to avoid confusion in future is for threads to be started in the correct section - threads about songs/tunes/music above the line, threads about politics and other BS below the line. Simples - it’s really not rocket-surgery, is it? ;-)

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 05:09 AM

I haven’t seen that Moderator’s comment Dave, I’m guessing it was on a deleted post. We’ll have to wait and see.

But one thing is certain - this thread is not about music, it’s about the internal politics of the UK and its devolved nations and, as such, belongs below the line. That much is beyond debate IMHO.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 04:53 AM

It might have had a chance as a music thread, but when politics enters the topic they must head south. ---mudelf

I can only go on the official ruling, John. Note the emboldened section and the prior phrase "It might have had a chance"

However, as we are discussing moderation policy and it is not relevant to the topic, I think these last few posts may be deleted.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 04:11 AM

Bugger, try again….

Apples and oranges spring to mind, Dave. I see no reason why folk songs and their political content can’t be discussed above the line, and I’m sure they often have been over the years. But this thread isn’t such a thread, it’s not about the music, it’s about a perceived political issue - ‘anti-Scottish’ behaviour involving the UK government and the SNP - and, as such, belongs below the line.

The Forum Moderators clearly agree.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 04:08 AM

”Lots of folk songs are political. Will discussions on those be moved below the line?”

Apples and oranges spring to mind, Dave. I see no reason why [u]folk songs[/U] and their political content can’t be discussed above the line, and I’m sure they often have been over the years. But this thread isn’t such a thread, it’s not about the music, it’s about a perceived political issue - ‘anti-Scottish’ behaviour involving the UK government and the SNP - and, as such, belongs below the line.

The Forum Moderators clearly agree.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 03:14 AM

Ahhhh, OK. I guess the 4 prior to it must have been relevant then :-D

Thanks for the clarification anyway

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 06:40 PM

Lots of folk songs are political. Will discussions on those be moved below the line?

(I thought I posted that before but maybe it didn't take)

---

It took. It isn't relevant to this discussion. It's a call made case-by-case. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 05:14 PM

”Presumably also 'teachable'.”

Not deliberately so, Nigel, but In view of the fact that it’s very difficult to teach anything to those who think they know everything, then yes, there’s a delicious, if accidental, irony there… ;-)

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 04:26 PM

And yes, my use of the word ‘temper’ above is deliberately ironic.
Presumably also 'teachable'.

This ruling is not 'Anti-Scottish', it is against a particular group who favour separating Scotland from the UK. As (at the last 'official' count) the majority of Scots favour continuing the 'Union', the ruling is in line with 'Scottish' wishes.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 03:38 PM

And yes, my use of the word ‘temper’ above is deliberately ironic.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 03:36 PM

”At least two people in this thread, whose views are just as valid as anyone else's, are unable to post below the line.”

I can’t comment about one of those people - I don’t know him or, for that matter, anything about him - but, in the case of the second, he has only his own bad behaviour to blame for his being in that position. Perhaps he should consider this a perfect teachable moment, and temper his future behaviour accordingly.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 03:22 PM

There is a forum rule that only one UK Politics thread is permitted, and such a thread already exists - the ‘Brexit and other UK Political topics - 3’ thread below the line in the BS Section.

This thread is clearly heavily political and, as such, belongs ‘below the line’, but contravenes the ‘one UK politics thread’ rule. However, the discussion could continue perfectly satisfactorily if it were to be merged with the aforementioned ‘Brexit and other UK Political topics thread.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 03:14 PM

At least two people in this thread, whose views are just as valid as anyone else's, are unable to post below the line. I love traditional and other forms of music, I'm a massive believer in public funding for the arts, I definitely think that shouldn't depend on your politics (though it may, arguably, depend on other things) and it's nice that I'm able to express my views in the context of music, thanks.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 02:35 PM

This was a thoroughly political subject right from the start.

However, worries about political meddling in the expression of artists and musicians are justified and relevant to the subject of the forums.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 01:14 PM

This seems to have become a ‘political’ thread. Perhaps a Mod could transfer it to the much more appropriate BS Section.

---

It might have had a chance as a music thread, but when politics enters the topic they must head south. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 01:10 PM

The government doesn't fund anything because it doesn't have any money. The government decides how OUR MONEY is used. I bitterly oppose this government and want to see it overthrown as soon as possible by democratic means. But, by some of the "logic" on display here, I should be refusing to accept my old age pension until we get a government I agree with... OK with that?

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 09:50 AM

So speaking in favour of a border poll or independence referendum is now equal to 'overthrowing the government' rather than part of the democratic process?

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: GUEST,Iains
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 09:00 AM

Freedom of speech comes with responsibility.
Do you really expect government to fund those that would wish to overthrow them?
I regard arts funding as a gravy train. It is throwing money away with very little result.
Do you seriously expect to get a payment for throwing a tantrum? If you desire change use the ballot box. But first you need to ban all votes that cannot be clearly identified. (There goes the postal vote, and the democrats)

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 08:40 AM

So, if I understand correctly, some of you feel funding of the Arts is dependent on toeing the party/government line?

How very pro freedom of speech and expression minded. Don't like democracy and all that much do you?

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: GUEST,iains
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 07:41 AM

It is a well known saying:
You do not bite the hand that feeds you!

If you want to plough your own furrow best find your own seed as well

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Feb 24 - 02:16 PM

Heard the same from Welsh people.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw, Guest not by choice
Date: 21 Feb 24 - 05:57 PM

I accept money from the state, not from a government I detest, John. I also pay taxes for causes which I detest. We call it democracy. Withdrawing funds from people because they support independence is one of the most undemocratic things I've ever heard.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 24 - 04:04 AM

Perhaps we should beapply6ing to Russia then, Dick. After all it's only funding, no strings attached.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 24 - 03:00 AM

Surely if one felt totally opposed to any country or government, one wouldn't accept their tainted money? QUOTE
The only thing that achieves is less funding for the country applying, any positive funding should be accepted and acknowledged.
If a country refuses funding from another country , the people that suffer are the people that need the money in the country that has refused it

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish music funding policy in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 24 - 02:40 AM

are there any examples of anti welsh funding poilkicies in the UK

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish funding policy in UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 24 - 01:50 PM

Surely if one felt totally opposed to any country or government, one wouldn't accept their tainted money?

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish funding policy in UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Feb 24 - 10:56 AM

Guardian article :
The tale of the Northern Irish rap group, the tories and sinister censoring...

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish funding policy in UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Feb 24 - 10:51 AM

Northern Ireland's "Kneecap" had their, already approved, funding withdrawn by the minister on the grounds they wouldn't fund groups that didn't support the UK

So there's an established pattern there.

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish funding policy in UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 20 Feb 24 - 10:26 AM

The policy described above is a logical continuation of the anti- Scottish agenda now being pursued by BBC 'Scotland' where news items seem to be selected on the basis of how best to damage the SNP. That's politics & arguably 'below the line' on mudcat?

However, if it is affecting the indigenous (not just folk) music of Scotland that is an attack on our culture, and not to be tolerated.

There are still 'mainstream' and established trad music programmes on BBC Scotland but BBC bias seems to be registering with people- fewer than 7000 viewers watch the main BBC Scotland news & it's being re-jigged, not surprisingly! But if the grant-awarding bodies have this attitude too, I'm afraid it only confirms the way things are- sad but true, as Jack Campin says

Subject: RE: Anti-Scottish funding policy in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 24 - 08:24 AM

That does not surprise me

Subject: Anti-Scottish funding policy in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Feb 24 - 05:16 AM

Article from The National:

THERE are concerns that musicians and artists who support Scottish independence could be blocked from UK Government-backed grants amid a culture compared to “McCarthyism 2.0”.

Artists have raised the alarm after the Tory government moved to overrule an independent panel and prevent the Belfast-based band Kneecap from receiving funding due to their anti-Unionist views.

Justifying the decision, a spokesperson for Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch claimed to “fully support freedom of speech,” but added: “It's hardly surprising that we don't want to hand out UK taxpayers' money to people that oppose the United Kingdom itself.”

Kneecap has threatened the UK Government with legal action over the move, and now concerns have been raised that the Tories’ statement might have far-reaching consequences.

Iona Fyfe, an award-winning Scots folk singer, said: “For me, the scary consequence is that only bands and artists who are supportive of the Union and the UK Government will reap the benefits of grants such as MEGS [the Music Export Growth Scheme].

“The whole thing is giving McCarthyism 2.0. If the UK Government firmly believes in rewarding bands and artists that are sympathetic to the Union and to the government of the day, then [it] risks going down a dark authoritarian path, seeking to silence and punish any critics.”

MEGS aims to gain a return on investment for the UK by handing money to musicians.

A UK Government press release from earlier in the month stated: “MEGS has invested more than £6 million in British music, leading to an estimated £55.5m financial return to the UK economy.”

The National: The SNP's Pete Wishart MP speaking in the House of Commons
SNP MP Pete Wishart (above), who was in the Scottish band Runrig before joining parliament in 2001, said MEGS was “designed to support artists to grow international markets following the disaster of Brexit on touring acts in the EU”.

He went on: “Only the Tories would be so politically obsessed to award funding according to a band’s views on the constitution.

“If this was to be applied across the board, very few artists in Scotland would qualify for any support as Scotland’s musical community – almost to a man and woman – is committed to seeing Scotland emerge as an independent nation. You can only imagine the application forms with bands interrogated about their levels of support for the UK and asked if they have ‘ever supported an independent Scotland’?

“This nonsense only compounds the needless bureaucracy on artists and introduces a sinister political test,” he added.

David Powell, a painter and sculptor from Wales who now works in the Netherlands, suggested that the MEGS move was part of a wider pattern, pointing online to a scandal which engulfed Arts Council England after it warned artists that “political statements” could break funding agreements.

Powell said the UK Government was “systematically and pathologically attacking the arts to remake it in [its] own grotesque image”.

He went on: “The Tories don’t like to be reminded of their criminally abject failures - they certainly cannot abide artists telling them uncomfortable truths about the crushing impacts of their austerity policies [and] engineered insolvency of councils and public services.

“Woe betides a group like Kneecap who rip the piss out of Imperialist demagogues with songs like Get your Brits Out, that is clearly going too far. The snowflake Tories are delicate flowers - you might hurt their feelings.”

Both Powell and Fyfe argued that art has a history of holding power to account and that by withholding funding for groups critical of their politics, the UK Government was in dangerous territory.

Fyfe said: "Through song, poetry, art and literature, artists shine a light on injustices of the state and give a voice to those persecuted by governments and politicians of all different stripes.

"The Business Secretary has revealed herself to be a soft-touch sham of a politician, on the one hand preaching free speech whilst on the other silencing those who disagree with her.

"This is a dangerous precedent the UK Government has set - but they should be in no doubt it's one that artists throughout the world will challenge without fear or favour."

The UK Government said it would respond to the Sunday National’s request for comment, but did not.