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BS: Folk Politics
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: Cllr Date: 07 Sep 01 - 10:31 AM I have been a folk club organiser for over eight years booking artists such as Leon Rosselson Roy Bailey and Robb Johnson (Robb was also a resident at short lived club I was running in Slough)I love a good political debate and sometimes I learn something.If you have an interest in politics and folk music, a good political song will make you think no matter what your views are.I know of at least four other folk club/ festival organisers who are conservatives but I am a bit more upfront than most. Because being a self admitted conservative in the folk scene is unusual but actually being a conservative on the folk scene is not. I can't count the amount of people who have told me they are conservative at festivals and folk clubs when I have stated my position(of course quite a few are not 8-)) georgH I am not impressed by personal attacks Having worked in the house of Commons I have met a number of Left Wing MP's who I have admired for their dedication(not their ideologies obviously) Even Ken Livingston who once stood up and defended John Major because one of the labour Shadow cabinet had said that Major was not a man of integrity. In a way I supose I'm reacting to the comments in the same way that some of the more unpleasant threads try to provoke, having read some of Aliuk other posts I know he has amusing and interesting comments to make and I am sure he wasn't trying to troll me as one of the others "guests" did. If others feel they need to slag off one the greatest prime ministers this country has ever had then I reserve the right to defend her (whose trolling who, but as much as I enjoy a good political debate if it becomes a shouting match and name calling there is not much point and as we are supposed to be talking about folk and politics in folk- making arguments about maggie is not going to change anyones view, Aliuk or mine and is way off topic so why bother. Cllr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: GeorgeH Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:57 AM To my mind, saying "you're so bigoted there's no point arguing with you" is both provocative and patronising - which was the total content of cllr's post . . all tribute to AliUK for not rising to the bait . . And I remain of the opinion that cllr needs to cast the beam out from his own eye before concerning himself with the mote of others! In addition, cllr makes not a single contribution to the subject of this thread. But back to the point . . To add to MikeofN's comments, Shirley Collins was born of Communist parents (and in Hastings that really would have put her family out on a limb) but rejected the inflexibility of "the party line" (while remaining entirely left-wing in its sympaties). This was at a point when MacColl was being rigidly and ridiculously authodox - a position he later relaxed considerably. (I had often heard talk of MacColl in these terms - which totally failed to match my own experience of the man. Shirley is the first person I've encountered who's able to give a first-hand account of this side of MacColl's character. Someone needs to get her to write her autobiography!) G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Sep 01 - 08:13 PM Folk music in my experience is made up of two threads at least. One is about aesthetic things, music and poetry, the other is about "political" things, meaning how people live alongside each other. A lot of the time that has a left flavour to it, not always. When the two threads are intertwined it tends to work best, though it can get uncomfortable at times.
Like the Mudcat, I suppose. In fact that last paragraph could have been written with "The Mudcat" instead of "folk music".
And I can't agree with what George said "cllr's appears to me to be the first deliberately provocative article in this thread" - unless saying "I disagree with you" is provocative. ("You're bigoted" he or she said of AliUK, to which AliUK replied "Yes I am, so what.)
I suppose in a sense saying you disagree with someone is potentially provocative, but if we aren't able to say that to each other, honest communication dies.
Nothing new in any of this of course:
"Two lovely black eyes,
Though we only get virtual black eyes here.
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: Wyrd Sister Date: 06 Sep 01 - 03:24 PM anagram of Tony Blair PM - I'm Tory Plan B 'Nuff said |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: MikeofNorthumbria Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:17 AM Much though I'm tempted to join in, I want to side-step the ongoing argument about Thatcher, Blair and electoral reform, and try to answer DMcG's original question ("How political was the early- to mid- 'sixties UK folk scene?")
Unfortunately, there isn't a simple yes-no, or 40%/60% answer. The whole situation was very complicated, but at the risk of boring the socks of everybody else, I'll try to fill in at least some of the picture.
Let's start with some generally agreed facts.
A L Lloyd – leading scholar of the folk revival, and one of its most highly regarded singers - one-time Communist Party Member
Ewan MacColl – outstanding interpreter of traditional songs, and arguably his era's greatest composer of new songs in the traditional manner – Communist Party Member
Eric Winter – folk columnist for Melody Maker, Editor of Sing magazine, and tireless publicist for all thinks folky – one-time Communist Pary Member
Karl Dallas – also columnist for Melody Maker, Editor of Folk News, author of many good books and articles on folk, and very competent singer-guitarist-songwriter – one-time Communist Party Member
Bruce Dunnet – folk club organiser, folk concert promoter, manager of numerous folk performers - one-time Communist Party Member
And the list goes on …
But while this might seem to vindicate right-wing fears of a communist conspiracy behind the folk movement, the reality was a bit different.
Most of these people joined the party in the 1930s (think Wall Sreet crash, mass unemployment, rise of Fascism, and mainstream parties doing nothing about it) or in the 1940s (think World War 2, our gallant Soviet allies defending Stalingrad against the Panzers, Churchill and Rooseveldt cosying up to Stalin at Yalta, etc.)
But by the late 1950s and early '60s most of the older generation of left-wing folkies had either left the party, or were taking a dissident stand within it (think suppression of Budapest uprising, continuing Soviet nuclear tests, gradually emerging truth about the purges and the Gulag, etc.) And most of the younger left-wing folkies never joined the CP in the first place, for similar reasons.
So, there were a lot of people around the folk scene with strong radical convictions, some of whom had (for a time) been CP members. But by the mid '60s most of them were not following anybody's party line. The folk movement was 'political' only in the sense that many of its members were actively campaigning against US/Soviet plans for nuclear suicide (Dr Strangelove and all that), racial discrimination, third-world poverty, and similar worthy causes. But most of them (I should come clean and say, most of us) were highly sceptical about the sincerity, and the effectiveness, of all politicians and parties, right, left, or centre. And I, for one, remain similarly sceptical to this day … Which takes us back to the ongoing arguments about Thatcher, Blair and company ….
That's enough pedantry for today … class dismissed! Let's all go down the pub! Wassail! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: Mrrzy Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:07 AM Check out politicalcompass.org. It's a treat, and on point... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: GeorgeH Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:04 AM But of course "my politics are better than yours" - and a hell of a lot better than those of those bastards in power! (Apply to any Government since Thatcher came to power!) Politics is (or was!) about conviction . . . The difficulty is accepting that SOMETIMES agreement and even friendship can transcend acute political differences. And our adversarial political system makes it far worse. As for Thatcher - IMO she was the greatest force for evil ever to have been inflicted upon this great nation. Which isn't a personal attack on her (though I'll happily indulge in that sport, given half a chance) but an appraisal of her effect. Far, far worse than Eunuch Powell , even! Also, contrary to how some see it, cllr's appears to me to be the first deliberately provocative article in this thread. I recall Steeleye Span opening their set at Bracknell Folk Festival, during the miner's strike, with Blackleg Miner. Which certainly offended some of the audience. Damn good thing, too, given the bais shown in reporting of events of that period. I also recall a tale of a girl, the daughter of a miner and then attending Exeter University, whose life was made so miserable by right-wing students that she came very close to abandoning her studies . . A song may offend, but in most circumstances that's a pretty mild action against those who are offended (who can always leave). G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: English Jon Date: 06 Sep 01 - 09:47 AM "Both of them owe their unrestrained power to a screwed up electoral system which consistently hands total power to parties which get a relatively modest number of votes." How true. Sooner we get P.R. the better. EJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Sep 01 - 09:44 AM You've just been savaged by a passing troll Cllr - one who very likely doesn't in fact give a damn about politics, but saw an opportunity to try and stir things up for fun. Most of us, if we want to argue about politics (and most Mudcatters don't very often) prefer to do it in a more constructive way.
Myself, I detest pretty well everything that Thatcher did. I suspect that, if I were a Conservative, I would probably detest it even more, seing her as destructive of so much that I would see as worth preserving. But personalising it all in "I hate Maggie" mode is pointless and trivialising.
I see her as a symptom, rather than a cause. She was in power because a lot of people liked what she said and what she did - many of whom have switched to support her admirer Tony Blair. Whatever blame there is for her "achievement" (and I think there is a great deal of blame)rests with those who supported her while she seemed useful to them.
Most people in the UK detested Thatcher throughout her years in power, in the same way that these days most people despise Blair.
Both of them owe their unrestrained power to a screwed up electoral system which consistently hands total power to parties which get a relatively modest number of votes.
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: English Jon Date: 06 Sep 01 - 09:32 AM Whilst on the subject of Thatcher, what about the Belgrano? EJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: Cllr Date: 06 Sep 01 - 08:32 AM Bald eagle Thank you for your comments. While the nature of politics does sometimes lead to confrontational situations to be truly effective one must respect the right of other people to have differing views even if those views are abhorrent. My personal exception to that rule is that I have very little time for those views and people which try to stop other people from expressing theirs own views. Unfortunalty to some, any view other than their own narrow minded, blinkered, egocentric belief or ideaology means they are justified to deride and heap personal abuse of who ever it is who they disagree with. Voilently agressive behaviour/communications such as those expressed elsewhere in this thread put the authors on the same level as the BNP. Opinions such as JudeL offers a view point which while I might disagree with it, at least a rational debate can ensue. Cllr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: JudeL Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:38 AM IMHO Her main "achievement" was to change the attitude of the nation from a society ( to quote her "there is no such thing as society") where community mattered to one where being an ambitious self-centred individual is not only acceptable but praised no matter who gets hurt or marginalised in the process! We are left with a nation that is growing steadily more money motivated and ruthless. Being suportive to others without expecting anything in return appears to be getting more and more rare and those who do are often ridiculed and looked upon as fools who are setting themselves up as "suckers" to be taken advantage of. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: Ringer Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:19 AM I don't think it's politics to wish her dead, to desire to piss on her grave, to call her "that bitch". That's hatred, and very unpleasant, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: GUEST,Guest MC Fat Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:47 AM Cllr whilst you Tories harp on about Maggies achievements. Smashing the uNions and completely dismantling the Industrial Fabric of this country, you strangely quiet now we are having to mop up the social chaos this caused throughout the land. I for one am working in the field of socia and economic regeneration and most if not all of the problems stem from 'that bitch's' achievements. I long for the day she departs this earth then we can truely ' Rejoice !! Rejoice!!' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: Phil Cooper Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:59 PM I believe attitude in singing a song has a lot to do with how it's perceived by the audience. My introduction to folk music was with protest songs and these days, unless the song is very well written, I tend to not like getting bashed over the head with the message. I think Woody Guthrie said at one point bad music is bad politics. I remember the Bellamy interview and agreed with a lot of what he had to say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:42 PM I'm inclined to think that if a song isn't capable of having a political impact in some context, it's probably not a great song.
Politics means expressing a view that something about the way we live needs to change. Or that it ought not to change.
Obviously that includes love songs.
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: Herga Kitty Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:03 PM There is a long history of polemic, social comment and political satire in song. (See the "Raise the Banners" thread.) Political songs can be very powerful. Unfortunately, some are just very bad songs which shouldn't be inflicted on a wider audience. And some good songs have been overtaken by revised notions of political correctness - eg the Whitby Whaler isn't a celebration of whaling but a fairly scathing commentary on the awful conditions and dismal rewards expeienced by people who had no alternative employment prospects. Irony sometimes falls on deaf ears. Kitty |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: Mr Red Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:28 PM I remeber Alex Campbell starting to describe a song and pausing then asking "are we north or south of the line strating from the Wash to Bristol?" he decided south and deemed the song too political for us southerners (in Walsall c1974). He worked to the rule of North= "Political required", South = "don't mention the body politic". seems to be a non-issue now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: Wyrd Sister Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:01 PM "Politicians are like bananas. They come green, they turn yellow and they're never straight." Enough about politics. I'm back to making a song and dance(or maybe just a tune) about anything and everything. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: GUEST,Boab Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:40 AM How about Dick Gaughan-- "So you think the Russians want War?" [Twenty million dead in WW2--] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: AliUK Date: 03 Sep 01 - 08:20 PM McGrath... I stand corrected on the "Barrack Room Ballads" and "the Widow's.....". But I have been out of the circuit for awhile...but on Maggie you will never move me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Sep 01 - 08:09 PM His great cycle of songs based on Kipling poems is a forgotten masterpiece.
Hardly forgotten I'd say. Every time I've heard of a production of The Widows Unifirm it's been a sell-out so far as I have heard.
The Barrack Room Ballads are by no means straight up and down glorifying the Empire. In many ways they show it up as a racket, exploiting and wasting poor bloody soldiers. Kipling allowed his soldiers to speak through him, and they didn't necessarily share all his politics or see them as of any interest.
As for Maggie, Cllr, I think you'd find that Tony Blair isn't much better liked. At least Maggie came on as The Enemy, and she clearly believed in her policies. A lot of people thought of Tony Blair as a Friend, and a lot more are very sceptical about whether he really has any real political beliefs. (I'd say in both cases they are mortal enemies of most of the best qualities of their particular political tradition, but that is another point)
And it is worth noting that folkies are always welcome in the Conservative Club at Whitby Folk Week, which is one of the main venues, and noone ever tries to censor our songs. But when some of us tried to have a concert in the Labour Club in Harlow (for example) the committee got cold feet, and cancelled the booking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: John MacKenzie Date: 03 Sep 01 - 03:59 PM All I can say is remember the Labour Party sympathisers and fellow travellers singing The Strawbs song, "Part of the Union" obviously not having read all the words. So remember all you folks out there, don't forget to READ THE WORDS. Jock |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: GUEST,AliUK Date: 03 Sep 01 - 03:27 PM institutions...I meant institutions. And I also meant to say that "care in the community"led to a sharp rise in the amount of mentally ill people on the streets and a rise in homelessness ( all can be proved) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: GUEST,AliUK on the comp at work Date: 03 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM Cllr. Yup bigotted and proud of it. My but we touched a nerve. I mean what "achievements"? The systematic destruction of the welfare state. The institution of schools that are no longer there for the best education that can be provided, but are now state-slightly-sanctioned elites. If you're in the wrong area you don't get a fair crack at an education. Sub-standard nursing and medical services ( the cuts were deep in the eighties. That wanker Blair is just more of the same ( his father was a Tory, no?). The almost paralysis of state built housing, the closing down of health inststuions which were substituted for so-called "care in the community". Shall I go on with the list? Cllr. I don't begrudge anyone their politics, but look to your leaders and ex-leaders and see with whom they associate ( Maggie/Pinochet need I say more? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: GUEST Date: 03 Sep 01 - 03:04 PM Well, I attended a huge celebration of the radical left here in the US when J. Edgar died...time-honored tradition, is it not? Anyone have any J. Edgar songs? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: Cllr Date: 03 Sep 01 - 03:00 PM wyrd and Aliuk- I could argue about Maggie's achievments and her effectiveness as a politician. but you are obviously so biggotted there is no point. Tory County Councillor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: Wyrd Sister Date: 03 Sep 01 - 02:45 PM Good points all, guest. 'Miners' was not chosen to offend as far as I'm aware, it was a group session/lunchbreak type of thing, but during that song I realised how songs with a historical political content can become both topical and powerful, and some of the reasons why the strength of 'folk' in its widest sense survived the 20th century. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: GUEST Date: 02 Sep 01 - 03:23 PM I don't really believe the argument is whether the song is any good. I think there can be good, even great songs, which deeply offend a lot of people. I'd also contend it isn't difficult in the least to determine in advance (most of the time) which songs will offend which groups of people. So, if you make a conscious choice to sing songs knowing that they will hurt and offend, to me that is a whole different kettle of fish than singing a political song which is intended to be a critique of those in power. It seems to me that there are certain types of arrogant, reactionary "folk singers" who delight in offending others, and stirring things up. But that has little to do with their politics, and everything to do with their personality, IMO. And I agree with AliK--problems can also arise when it's a "my politics are better than yours" thing too.
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: Wyrd Sister Date: 02 Sep 01 - 03:09 PM Please can I come to the party? ...and I remember singing 'Dirty Blackleg Miners' during THE strike, in a pub somewhere south and Tory (maybe IVFDF in Portsmouth or something - it snowed!) Back to the main point - I think I thought we thought things would improve when our generation took over from the old men in suits. Ah, the delusions of youth! And a good song is still a good song. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: AliUK Date: 01 Sep 01 - 08:16 PM Pete was always disillusioned with how his art was critcised by the politicos on the scene and his great cycle of songs based on Kipling poems is a forgotten masterpiece. I always wondered how much this played in his decision to take his own life. Politics have long been part of the folk scene and I remember a furious argument I got into with a booked singer at a club when he sang songs about the Whitby whaling trade. To paraphrase one of the masters "I was so much younger then". Unfortunately, too many people let politics get in the way of a good song. Now that I've seen a few more miles, I cringe at that argument and realise what a puffed up little shite I was. Political expression is more than valid through song and the folk revival spawned more than its fair share of activists ( look at Pete Seeger, who I thought hijacked the scene a bit and was far too precious abut HIS politics). Gareth, I have the party planned for when the Queen Bitch dies, I shall book a special flight to the UK just to have the pleasure of pissing on her grave. As Elvis ( Costello) said...tramp the dirt down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: Gareth Date: 01 Sep 01 - 07:23 PM 8 Pint, But at least when the Cow wen't and it was annouced, I was actually doing a suspected fraud investigation on one of the rougher bits of social housing in Caerphilly. To say that there was a spontanous street party would put it mildley. In the village pub later, " Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" was sung loudley, off key, and often. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Politics From: 8_Pints Date: 01 Sep 01 - 05:17 PM I seem to recollect that most people were expecting justice and hope to guide their future aspirations. I suspect the next generation will nurture the same ideals but in different forms. If not we have failed in raising our children to participate in the world's social stage. There again didn't someone once claim that there is no such thing as "Society", "Only Family". I never could agree with her! Bob vG |
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Subject: Folk Politics From: DMcG Date: 01 Sep 01 - 09:23 AM I recently read this interview from 1990 with Peter Bellamy =========== Politics I don't recall even discussing politics with him [Bruce Dunnet, the veteran Communist, who gave the Young Tradition their name]. I don't even recall politics being much of a topic at all in the folk scene at that time . . . it wasn't such a stranglehold as it had been five years earlier, when it was a genuinely MacColl-dominated folk revival. But by the time I'd come in, the music was the important thing, not just for me, but for everybody I knew. People getting together and getting high and listening to the Copper Family records and Paddy Tunney and saying wow! They weren't sitting around arguing about the political implications of any of the songs we were singing, or choosing to sing, and no one was peddling very political songs in our direction. We were music enthusiasts, first and last. ========= I've always thought PB is an excellent singer with a breath-taking style, but this really does not fit my memory of the mid sixties at all. (The first Young Tradition LP was released 1966). How do other remember it?(people who were not born then need not answer!)
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