American Freedom and Security

Subject: RE: American Freedom and Security
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 10:28 AM

Whoa! And here is an interesting tidbit for all the military strategists:

http://www.indiareacts.com/archivefeatures/nat2.asp?recno=10&ctg=

Subject: RE: American Freedom and Security
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 10:13 AM

Here is a good article on the current state of affairs, from Pravda's website:

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/10/23/18856.html

The article starts out talking about how the demand for American flags is so high right now, that Chinese workers are having to work over-time to keep up.

Smart article.

Subject: RE: American Freedom and Security
From: GUEST,Bob Schwarer
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 09:25 AM

If there was mischief afoot Ben Franklin would be the first one to monitor smoke signals (and lanterns in church steeples). Something about eternal vigilance.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: American Freedom and Security
From: InOBU
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 08:30 AM

Thanks for the concern Amergin, I also don't feel DougR is condesending. I also have been compaired to the man who hits the mule with the 2 by 4, to get his attention before making a point, I know where Doug's heart is and he is actually refering to our other conversation about war. I can't even speculate what our history would have been if we had less war in the eighteenth century, my co-religionists were attempting to have us evolve out of war even then. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: American Freedom and Security
From: DougR
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 01:01 AM

I don't consider it that Amergin. Just making a point. If my posts disturb you, don't read them! It's a free country. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: American Freedom and Security
From: GUEST,Jordan
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 09:39 AM

My daughter just found this doing a web search for her paper. It seems to pretty well summarize the issues related to the USA Act as it was passed. Since I haven't seen this summary elsewhere, I thought folks might find it germane to the conversation. It comes from the Corporate Watch website, but seems to be a summary taken from either the ACLU or National Lawyers Guild (not clear).

Here it is:

According to the ACLU, the most troubling provisions in both the Senate and the modified House anti-terrorism legislation now include:

Permits Information Sharing: Allows information obtained during criminal investigations to be distributed to the CIA, NSA, INS, Secret Service and military, without judicial review, and with no limits as to how these agencies can use the information once they have it.

Authorizes "Sneak and Peek Searches": Authorizes expanded use of covert searches for any criminal investigation, thus allowing the government to enter your home, office or other private place and conduct a search, take photographs, and download your computer files without notifying you until later.

Allows Forum Shopping: Law enforcement can apply for warrants in any court in any jurisdiction where it is conducting an investigation for a search anywhere in the country. This would make it very difficult for individuals subjected to searches to challenge the warrant.

Creates New Crime of Domestic Terrorism: Creates an entirely new type of crime, which is unnecessary for the prosecution of the "War on Terrorism." By expanding the definition of terrorism in such a way, the bill could potentially allow the government to levy heavy penalties for relatively minor offenses, including political protests.

Allows the CIA to Spy on Americans: Gives the Director of Central Intelligence the power to manage the gathering of intelligence in America and mandate the disclosure of information obtained by the FBI about terrorism in general -- even if it is about law-abiding American citizens -- to the CIA.

Imposes Indefinite Detention: Permits authorities to indefinitely detain non-citizens, without meaningful judicial review.

Reduces Privacy in Student Records: Allows law enforcement to access, use and disseminate highly personal information about American and foreign students.

Expands Wiretap Authority: Minimizes judicial supervision of law enforcement wiretap authority in several ways, including: permitting law enforcement to obtain the equivalent of "blank" warrants in the physical world; authorizing intelligence wiretaps that need not specify the phone to be tapped or require that only the target's conversations be eavesdropped upon; and allowing the FBI to use its "intelligence" authority to circumvent the judicial review of the probable cause requirement of the Fourth Amendment.

Subject: RE: American Freedom and Security
From: GUEST,Jordan
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 08:44 AM

In fact, my daughter is working on a US history paper right now, comparing the US Patriot Act to the Alien and Sedition Act.

As they say, those who don't know their history are destined to repeat it.

Subject: RE: American Freedom and Security
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 08:20 AM

Doug! The point of the song is that Jefferson was asked to run for president, well actually go to war against the Alien and Sedition act, instead he invented party politics, fact is Jefferson concidered the act a major tyranny, what do you think he'd have thought of the new Patriot Act? I believe Franklynn would have reminded us of his words, thouse who trade liberty for secrurity deserve neither! As to your other comments, yes we Friends stood aside from the revolution, I feel no particual part of this, as the 35th foot, my Families regiment, also know as the Otways (now the Pricess of Wales Reg.) would have fought on the other side, as they did in Canada, I don't beleive they were sent to this particular party. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: American Freedom and Security
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 04:53 PM

Doug, why do you always have to be so condescending?

Subject: RE: American Freedom and Security
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 04:43 PM

Or why didn't the Sioux and the Cheyenne just politely ask the Americans to stop killing the buffalo and go home? Surely they would have listened to reason?

Geez, you can go on all day long with such examples of squandered opportunities, eh Doug? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: American Freedom and Security
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:30 PM

Gee, Larry, aren't you surprised old Tom Jefferson just didn't politely ask the Brits to go home instead of encouraging our patriots to go to war? Don't you imagine, had they been asked nicely, they would have just packed up their cannons, soldiers and everything else and sailed back home? :>)

DougR

Subject: American Freedom and Security
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:57 PM

To the tune of Sam Jones
Words Lorcan OtwayTo the tune of Sam Jones
Words Lorcan Otway

My name is Thomas Jefferson, from the Virginia Colony
When I was a young man, I fought for Liberty
Blood by the gallon, watered that Laurel Tree
A nation was born on these shores.

We struggled through lead and fire our native land to free
From Boston Virginia along the Allegheny
As noble was vision still braver the visionary
A nation was born on these shores

Hard were our foes the dreaded lobster backs
ranks and ranks pouring fire deadly thunder cracks
and our lines where ravaged, our dead like cordwood in stacks
A nation was born on our shores

When we drove the crown from our continent
A new war we fought against our own countrymen
Shays was defeated at a price that sickened me
a nation was born on our shores

The fires of French liberty left our leaders shaking
An alien and sedition act was their cowards undertaking
I was asked to lead again a war for we needing liberating
our nation born on our shores

But I ran for president, I was sick of fighting
It was time a ballot, freedoms torch would be lighting
And I repealed the acts that our people found so frightening
A nation was born on our shores,

Now I'm just a spirit, in this land that I fought for
I hoped that liberty would grace us for ever more
But the "Patriot Act" the Alien acts restore
I weep for my nation on this shore

When you forget the past, your doomed to relive it
Remember the cost when freedoms torch we lit
Freedom's fleeting value is only what we make of it
Weep for our nation on this shore
Weep for the nation on this shore