BS: Too much negative - bring back balance

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 10:07 PM

to address the subject of the thread:

folks....it is mathematics and the dynamics of large groups! When it was much smaller, we had very few 'nasty' posts. I can't remember any real trend till Gargoyle got his dander up.....but eventually, with a LARGE assortment of personalities, someone will take issue with a comment, a topic..or just an attitude!

Sure, we can plead for restraint and sometimes even get a little, but with Max's policy of "I build the sandbox, it's YOUR responsibility to play nice in it" (he said almost exactly that), the large group of folks who have wandered in here will inevitably include some malcontents of various persuasions. Some use their names (MAV), some post without names just to irritate and prove they can!

We get regular pleas to NOT respond to flames & trolls, and many "take the pledge", (I did...fell off the wagon..*wry smile*)...but the metaphor of this place being like a community or a family is more relevant than before. We have a central organizing theme, but like at a festival or singing party, lots of stuff is going on that is not music!

At a party, you can (usually) go in the other room...or at least not join the conversation you don't like...and you CAN do that here, but the threads being in a long list are a snare!...there is a "NO BS" way to view the threads, but only a handful seem to be willing to use it, and it does depend on the thread being titled that way...and there is no avoiding threads that creep.*sigh*

I used to protest about the % of music threads and the TYPE of music, too....but once Max made his declaration, I said to myself..."self", I said, "you might as well give up and go with the flow,'cause the good parts are as good as it gets, and the idiots are gonna be here anyway!"

I, also, have been reading 'fewer' threads than I used to, for various reasons: 1)there are MORE, and time is a factor.. 2)they are getting repetitious in some ways, 3) I am tired of my OWN reaction to anonymous 'guests'

but as I have said, there is NO place like this, and I will never give it up...I have met people here who have become real friends RT, and I have learned so much it awes me. And it has allowed me to hone my own thoughts on many subjects---musical and non-musical.

I am a better person for having spent 5++ years in this digital craziness, and I chose it of my own free will....

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 06:24 PM

There is sometimes a good reason for putting links to old threads in a new thread. Sometimes it's useful to link related threads together for anyone who comes along later and wants to check them both (all) out. It's much easier to keep track of discussion on a particular subject if the threads on that subject are linked.

I'm sure there are cases where this wouldn't apply, and it wouldn't be appropriated to link an old thread to a new one, but it can sometimes be useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 04:01 PM

Frank, I thought Pseudolus was just a soo-duh-nim for Methuselah, so I reckon yer an ol' timer already.*g*

And, I thank you and everyone else who has posted, though I do think garg was being a bit repetitive with those very unimaginative lyrics!

Check it out, Kim! it was the Druids!! Too kewl!

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 03:28 PM

You mean to say that the Druids did the Hokey-Pokey? I always understood it was the Shakers that invented the Hokey-Pokey, even though they didn't actually hokey pokey themselves...

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Pseudolus
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 03:04 PM

I don't totally disagree with Echo. I think a certain amount of boredom does exist here and in fact contributes to the perception that things just aren't the same. I do however disagree with the attitude that he/she perceives the "oldtimers" have around here. I have never felt anything but welcome even way back when I first started coming here.

I follow the "if you don't like the thread, don't open it" rule, and it does work for ME....but I must admit that the threads that interest me have decreased. Am I bored? Maybe. I have followed Echo's advice well before it was given. I stay away from time to time, sometimes I read but don't feel compelled to post, but I always come back. The people out there that post just to stir up the pot know who they are and we have always had them around.....unfortunately, they're not going anywhere.

So what do we do? I say that we should stay active. If you need to stay away, as many of us have, do it, but you can't make a difference if you AREN'T HERE!! Come back, add music threads, respond to the threads that interest you. This place will become what we as a group want it to be, each of us with a niche that he/she can fit into nicely, even trolls and flamers. But if you leave, or merely complain that this place isn't what you'd like it to be, the people who have made it that way just increase the size of their niche!

I'm with ya Kat, I would like to see more positive threads, BS or music or both!! Thanks for starting this one.....

So, how long do I have to be here to be considered an "oldtimer" or is being 44 enough??? *BG*

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: MMario
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 02:03 PM

echo? Where has anyone said anything like what you just posted? certainly not in this thread. And very few examples that I can think of over the breadth of the forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: GUEST,Echo
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:51 PM

So...

...the newcomers just aren't as funny/compassionate/informed (fill in the blank) as us old timers (or those who came before)--

...when you are bored, angry or all your arguments have failed to persuade, blame it all on anon--

...things aren't like they used to be in MY Good Old Days at Mudcat--

...don't talk about what you newcomers want to talk about, read what we've already said about this here & shut the fuck up because we've hashed the thing to death already...

See how some of you sound?

Like I said, turn off your computers. Stay off the internet. Go outside and have a swim, a picnic, a night out listening to the stars instead of the internet static for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: MMario
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:35 PM

but refresing the thread without new content is also counterproductive.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: GUEST,Echo
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:31 PM

Newbies seem to like it fine here, and it seems the old timers are the ones who are, well...bored.

My response? Find new horizons. I'd be bored shitless too if I'd been coming to the one and only same same same chat forums for years. God, I can't even stand going to them more often than a couple times a week.

IMO, there is a terrible, cynical malaise in all the arts communities I am active in. Everyone seems bored, that there is nothing new under the sun to be tried, as though we all must accept this postmodern twilight as the only possible reality for the rest of our sorry ass lives.

My response to those of you who are clearly bored at Mudcat is this: turn off your computer for the rest of the summer. Go to Vegas for show tunes, or Paris for torch singers, or Truth or Consequences for the pow wow, Toronto for the music festivals. Listen to some music you usually never listen to. Do non-music related interesting things.

You'll come back refreshed, and more in tune with the newcomers. It all goes in cycles in internet forums. I find the problems are usually with veteran/long timers getting bored and burned out, not the newcomers who like things just fine.

The political BS is really of a pretty high caliber in Mudcat for a chat forum. Really. And if people don't challenge one another's points of view, you never learn new things, to see things from a different vantage point, etc. The political BS does get nasty, but so too can the music and other non-music BS threads. Remember the nastiness the prayer threads used to cause? No different in intensity or tone than the political stuff.

There will always be people who blame the politically inclined or the religiously inclined for the perceived "decline in civility" arguments. I don't think it is either. I think the old timers just like having it their way too much. I agree with Bobert (sorry Jeri, I know you are well intentioned, but...) about the "been there done that" posting of old timers of links to old threads. I've rarely found much of value in any of the discussion threads (though there are a few exceptions). I find it more helpful to just refresh the thread in question and tell people about it. Too often, providing the link really does seem to let the air out of the sails of the conversation because it isn't in context.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: MMario
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:18 PM

very true, Don!

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:15 PM

Some who identify themselves only as GUEST post some very cogent and worthwhile comments and information. Other GUESTS are here only to be provocative. The former I read and appreciated. The latter, I skip. One doesn't have to read more than a few words to tell which is which.

Don Firth (who should proof-read more carefully before he hits the "Submit" button)

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:03 PM

Good point, MMario! I guess our GUEST writes to his mom anonymously... "Dear Mrs. So-and-so, my only reason for writing to you without signing my name or putting a return address on the envelope is that I know how much you hate not knowing who's writing to you. How utterly irrational of you. Love, me."

If I were GUEST's mom, and I got a letter like that, not knowing it was from my kid, I'd feel that it was perfectly rational to contact the police so they could check it for anthrax! *G*

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: MMario
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 12:48 PM

Guest; this is a serious question...

you say "To be honest, my only reason for posting as a GUEST (it would hardly take a great wit to make up a name)is the utter irrational hatred that the GUEST name inspires in some "

I may be way off base here - but to me this translates as "I deliberatly post in a mannner that I know will cause friction and animosity". That may not be what you MEAN - but it certainly is the way it is perceived.

if your intent is NOT to cause dissension - then why do you choose an action that you KNOW will cause dissension?

this is of course seems to be in direct contradiction to a follow up statement in your same post " I always try to post as if I was writing to my mom "

Love/hate relationship?

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 12:31 PM

I agree that with Bobert that it sometimes puts a damper on a new thread when someone says, "We've already talked about that," and posts a link. Nevertheless, there is a wealth of information and general all around good stuff to be found in many of the older threads, and anyone who ignores them for whatever reason is doing really doing themselves a disservice by not checking them out.

At the same time, link or no link, the discussion in the new thread should go on. Stephen Hawking didn't just say, "Oh, hell! Einstein already talked about that!" He checked out what Einstein said and took it from there. So read what's already be said, and build on it.

Don Firth

There you go, Don. Fixed by a JoeClone

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 12:06 PM

SharonA, I stand by my litterbox reference, not necessarily because it is true, but because it paints an amusing picture in my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 10:36 AM

Bo-bert, you're not in any doghouse of mine either. Like Jeri, I don't have a doghouse... or even a yard to put one in... All I have is a housecat!

And no, you're not in my housecat. Not the last time I opened his mouth and looked, anyway.

All i'm sayin' about links to old threads is that I like 'em for reference (especially when they have goofy titles that I'd never think of typing into a Forum Search on the subject!), but I don't see them as a big red "STOP" sign. I don't see anything wrong with reading the old stuff and making new conversation. That's all's!

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:29 AM

When we first started having BS threads, I was one of the biggest contributors, no argument there. AND perhaps, the NEED for the creation of such a plantive aborration of forum.

BUT the BS, imo, has become so negative

Tut, Tut, Tut

Petitely Petulant Pus Pussy - this song's for you,
Tune = Auyld Lang Sang

Fuck you, Fuck you,
Fuck you, Fuck you
Fuck you, Fuck You
Fuck you, Fuck You,
Fuck you, Furck you,
Froakck You, fukek uwe,
Fyok You, Fruch You

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 11:58 PM

Not quite..... As I keep telling people, my bodhran WAS a banjo, till I got fed up trying to keep the thing in tune - pointless excercise anyway, took hours and nobody ever noticed...........

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 11:47 PM

I know, Art. This was pointed out to me, poetically I might add, on the tambourine thread. I never thought of it that way. I guess it's the same with bodhrans then?

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 11:42 PM

Carol C,

The venerable old tambourine---with a neck added, IS a banjo.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 10:52 PM

I'm one who won't read old threads..if I open one up and it says 1999 or whatever I either skip to the very bottom or I just close it. I think clickies are fine referring people to old ones...I'd rather not see the old one unless I clicked though. To me it is not that the old discussion had no value; it is like saying at a party, we had that conversation 2 years ago and here is a transcript of it so we don't need to go over it again. I personally don't care how many times we discuss the Green Fields of France...if people are bored answering questions let the newer people answer them..someone will... mg

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 09:30 PM

Yeah, what the Pooka said and I'll leave it at that!... (Yeah right, Bobert?...) You are right, Jeri, and it's not like I don't read a lot of the old threads. It's just that after I do, I go, "Hey, it's all been said" and look for another place to play, and unfortunatley, many times I just end up in BSburg because it's current and when The US bombs a wedding, no one can say, "Hey, they did that last year."

I've tried to start music threads and they have petered out. "Your favorite blues artist" on a website that says its into blues lasted two days and dropped into Max's black hole with about 40 posts. I've started one about Paul Sieble which got about 5 poats before dropping out of sight. Then I started a topical thread, "Department of Peace" and it raged for days and days. Go figure...

Okay, Iz all fone now...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: The Pooka
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 09:19 PM

Hit "Submit Message" before I was done. Jaysus wot a newbie. Well my point (always assuming I have one) is: I feel the Mudcat, overall, is doing damn well. Don't worry so much. This is a very good forum. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: The Pooka
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 09:16 PM

Being still pretty new here, I didn't experience the Good (?) Old Days of Mudcat and I don't really know you guys *except* via this here glowing collection of pixels, electrons, or whatever-they-are in front of me face. NEVER THE LESS, I wanna say the following. (1) You folks are great. (Well--- yer Pixels are, anyway.:) (2) The serious music threads are awesome. Literally. I'm in awe. Often. (3) The funny threads, and posts, musical or not, are frequently hilarious. (4) The negative BS threads don't bother me, usually. One can stay away from what the wise WYSIWYG unerringly names the "stinky poop". And as the wise-and-utterly-unstinky Mr. 'Spaw said, "...for the love of god, why must we try to continually change unchangeable minds?" (He uses the latter noun generously, to be sure.) (Whoa! Pook takes a Poke, there.) (5) A musicloving non-musician, I gravitate toward---occasionally even start---what you might call "BS Lite" threads. Perhaps they somewhat counterbalance the Bad Vibes stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 09:14 PM

Bobert, I don't have a doghouse and you ain't in it. To be perfectly serious, (And I'm NOT offended, just explaining another view), when someone posts a link to an old discussion and someone else says "that was then, this is now - I don't want to read old comments," it's like saying "I don't give a damn what any of those people had to say back then. If they aren't around now or don't feel like saying the same thing 2, 5, or 20 times, the heck with 'em!"

I'm not the least bit upset with you or anyone else. It's too damned hot here to be upset. The duct tape idea sounds like fun though.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 08:46 PM

Jeri: I don't want to flame anyone's butt, to be perfectly honest. Sure, I've been known to wrestle around with DougR over his Repubs and have gotten in the middle of some heated stuff about war but... I am a very gentle peace loving type person. Really. The only point that I was trying to make in my original post which began, "What the heck do I know" was that, as a relative new comer, when I see a thread that doesn't even get 3 or 4 posts deep before someone brings it to everyone's attention that "We've allready done that", well, it kind of turns me off. It's like the new guy at work who comes in with waht he thinks is a bnew idea so he expresses it and the rest of the staff tells him, "we tried that". I'm not trying to flame anyone by making this observation and Iz allready in Sharon-aaa's dog house fir speaking up and here I am getting on yours. Danged! No make that a double danged, dang it!!! Hey, so Iz relatively new and I have this one little teeny tiny observation and I get my butt duct taped to the Catsburg par bench and folks out there who are also new are going, "Well, danged. Better not agree with the Bobert 'cause there's plenty more duct tape where that came from... " and then next year Kat or someone's still asking the same old questions and round and round and round we go....

And now, I'll have to send you a PM doing the Dance of the Dieing Duck, which I really don't mind doing mind you, 'cause I figured "Hey, the first foot tasted pretty good! Wonder what the other one's like?"

The slow learnin' Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 08:04 PM

Musical? Spaw? Geez, kat, aincha stretching definitions a bit? Ya shoulda heard what he threatened to transmit for the Mudcat CD!! I had to pay him to put a cork in it!

LOL!

Go cut a rug, kids!! Hoot and holler!! Damn the torpedoes!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 08:02 PM

I've started a thread with some creative challenge here: Romancing the Tambourine

Anyone want to carry on with it? Romancing the banjo perhaps? I'm sure someone could do some really interesting stuff about playing the bones, or even the bagpipes.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 07:54 PM

Ah, Spaw, please let the little guy out? You have touched on exactly what I've been trying to say...it has nothing to do with too much or too little of BS or music, just content...most of the BS has no redeeming/entertainment value at all, let alone being a creative challenge as has been the norm around here for a good long while.

Tell ya what, Ditzee Lee's been hankering to get out and about some, too...maybe she and Cleigh could meet them Reg boys and kick-start a new play thread. heck, if Cleigh would let her blow up his bum, it could even turn musical!

Jeri, excellent clarification on the conundrum of guest postings!

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 07:54 PM

We're touchy in the same way as married couples, roommates, siblings or close friends can be touchy. Many of us, intentionally or not, push other people's buttons, and we all have buttons other people can push. We just know each other too well, and might be better off if we treated each other with the politeness we use for strangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 07:38 PM

Sometimes the BS takes on a form that's depressing as hell and I think that's about it as for what kat meant. everyone has a point of view but for the love of god, why must we try to continually change unchangeable minds? Geeziz, if you're here long enough you can predict exactly who will say what and who will respond. Not many light jokes or heavy ones for that matter come out of the threads anymore and if I make one, it's a guarantee of getting some PM's wondering why I hate so and so or that I have greatly offended someone or another. We didn't all used to be so damn touchy and lots of folks had a big time talking about such delicate matters as Hokey Pokey and the Druids.

The thing isn't about a lack of muusic...there's plenty. There is a lot of creativity missing from the BS though and much of it comes from folks who are looking to be offended.......But hey, listen....If you ARE one of those folks, Fuck You!!! NOW, you can be offended!!!

Wonder if it's safe to tell a Cleigh O'Possum story anymore? He hasn't spoken to me in weeks and is just sitting there.........He wants a public apology, but I don't know if it's safe anymore.

Spaw

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 06:47 PM

Hey Bobert, if ya wanna flame my butt for providing links, you can. I like having you around here and I think it would be entertaining AND keep the thread going!

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 06:43 PM

GUEST, I meant your post illustrated the problem, not that it was an example of it. Whether wrong or right, I took as somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

Whether anyone likes it or not, whether it's right or not, those who post without a name have made a conscious choice (in most cases) to join a group of people, some of whom seem solely concerned with attacking people. It's guilt by association, but you choose the association. Guests don't want to be seen as individuals, so I try to only respond to individual comments or ignore them. I don't know if you really try to post as if you were writing to your mom. I don't have any reason to believe you OR disbelieve you and the only sane thing for me to do is treat you as a thought typed by a random person with no history, no known opinions, and no personality. You don't want to be treated like a non-person, but you do your best to appear to be one. Sorry - I know there must be a human out there somewhere, but one who doesn't wish to be seen as any particular one.

I'll let others play the get-the-guest/get-the-members game. It's old and it's petty and it constantly (and I mean CONSTANTLY) interferes with communication when folks just can't keep from bringing up their pet peeves, whatever they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: C-flat
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 06:39 PM

I think it's important to keep some perspective here. As I post this there are probably six threads currently running that I would describe as negative in their content and seem to be aimed at stirring up ill-feeling towards something/someone.
You can usually pick them out easily enough and there's still another hundred-odd threads running that are mostly music related with a handful of good-humoured BS topics thrown in.
Personally I like the BS threads as it often gives a little insight of the personalities who regularly post here.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 06:21 PM

Shar-roon-aaaa: Like I said, "What the heck do I know..."

Bo-bear

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 06:09 PM

Here ya go, Kat:

Cheerful Thread Here

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 05:40 PM

Jeri,

I only generalised because you had.

I don't hate you at all

To be honest, my only reason for posting as a GUEST (it would hardly take a great wit to make up a name)is the utter irrational hatred that the GUEST name inspires in some

It is very easy to forget that you are speaking to another human being here (or on any other internet forum)

I always try to post as if I was writing to my mom

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 05:35 PM

Hi Kat! Thanks for starting this thoughtful thread. It is a very timely one for Mudcat, and for me personally. As well you know, I got turned off big time, some months ago, but some very contentious postings. For several weeks I didn't want to, or bother to, tune in. You see, to me, the best of MUDCAT is MUSIC. It's what I truly love. So why would I want to subject myself to angst, nonesense, bullshit, and rudeness, when I really wanted to spend a few moments in the enjoyment of F O L K M U S I C ! So, having said that, I do monitor it often, and I do post occasionally, whenever the thread interests me and I feel I can contribute something worthy. As someone else also mentioned, I'm speechless as to why we feed these stupid guests with their provocative jabs. If I want to pick a fight with someone, it's a lot simpler just to drive onto the freeway and give someone the finger. CHEERS, Bob (learning a new ballad) Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 05:09 PM

Just thinking about what GUEST said - that may demonstrate the worst of those threads. People see others as one of a big group, whether it's Americans, Brits, Mudcatters, GUESTS or whatever. They forget their talking to individuals instead of some representative a group they're currently enjoying feeling better than and hating. When you say "Americans," you're talking about ALL Americans. Somehow, I have a problems seeing what I have personally done to make you hate me. Same with Republicans, Liberals, religious people, banjo players, blah, blah, blah.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 05:03 PM

Well, I'm an American and the worst thing I've done today is murder some bugs that were eating my lilies. It really bothered my conscience though.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 04:43 PM

Maybe Americans should start being good?

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 04:40 PM

I'm going to continue linking to old threads because there are comments in them by folks who either aren't around any longer or don't feel like writing the same thing again. Please don't ascribe any motive to that other than me trying to be helpful. Anybody who thinks providing links means I'm saying "don't talk about this anymore" is reading an awful lot of invisible message.

On the other hand, it's too bad the same sort of think can't kill some political BS threads. ("Here's a thread we had on Bad Americans last week. And here's one from yesterday, and these three from a month ago. And here's one that started out being about Palestine (which we had about 10 threads on last week) but ended up being about Bad Americans...")

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 04:01 PM

I don't interpret the links to older threads on the same subject as "proudly pointing", just being helpful as Bobert says. I agree with you both that those links shouldn't kill a thread, but I disagree with Bobert's view that the only solution is to not provide those links. I would rather see those old threads and learn something from them, and also, as Jack says, take the new thread in a new direction with the input of the others who are now on the Forum!

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 03:51 PM

SharonA, I agree wholeheartedly, I also came here June of last year and if anything I would say things have gotten better. Sniping at guests seems to have been replaced with sniping at G.W. and that is fine by me!! Bob makes a good point as well, which has also been brought up before. A lot of older cats like to prouldly point at what they have left in the litterbox of older threads. But does that mean we have to leave it at that? We are still free, I hope to take the thread in another direction?

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 03:21 PM

I dunno... I started posting to Mudcat in June of last year, and although that wasn't long before 9/11, it was still pre-9/11. I saw plenty of anger, snapping at one another, taking potshots, carping about world issues, and off-topic BS galore, and flaming-&-trolling by GUESTs and flaming-&-trolling at GUESTs... In fact, I remember how puzzled I was when I first posted as a GUEST-with-a-suffix and being thanked by a Mudcatter for doing so.

I don't think that we can blame 9/11 for this, or even date the "harder edge" of Mudcat posts from that day. Like the terrorist attack itself, it didn't come out of the blue; there's been a build-up to it beforehand. I think that the rancor is indicative of something that's been running very deep in our society for years now.

If anything, I've seen valiant attempts on the part of some Mudcatters not to give in to that rancor after 9/11 when they would have done so before then. But I do agree that if we all minded our manners better, it would be a positive thing for Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 03:17 PM

Hey, what the heck does this ol' hillbilly know but I'd like to make just an observation which is not meant to be critical but....

GUEST above noted that when it comes to music, "all of the bases have been covered." Well there is a level of truth to that staement but that is just part of my observation. I have noticed with a lot of music threads that they barely get going when an old Catter with a good memory remembers something similar and posts a link to the old thread. Well, I'm sure these folks are trying to be helpful but it does kind of kill a thread that might wander off and play out differently than the first time.

With that observed, I think a lot of the newer Catfolk, myself included, feel more topical and current threads satnd a better chance of taking on lives of their own with out having to be compared to the last time this or that was up for discussion.

My suggestion would be for a little sensitivity and selective amnesia on the parts of some of the more veteran Catfolk. And I'll leave it at that. This is a real cool place to hang out in these times of stress.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 03:06 PM

Agree with Jim. After telling other people to simply not read those threads, I've pretty much stopped reading any of them. The one time in the last couple of months I did read one, I saw what appeared to be otherwise decent human beings losing their tempers and saying nasty things to folks who would be their friends anyplace but in that type of 'discussion'. They generally calm down and/or apologize later - after the damage is done.

I've met folks I might have lashed out at in my earlier days here. In every case, I've been very glad I waited until I calmed down before posting.

In any case, we can make stuff appear here, but no one can make stuff go away. The people who are already consistently starting political threads or participating in them are the last people who'll agree to ease off.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 02:41 PM

I still think the best strategy is to simply ignore the threads you don't like. Most people are doing that already.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 02:34 PM

Perhaps you ought to rephrase, instead of "too much negative" how about "too little positive"?

I don't see the point in making artificial changes to entice people back. But to anyone who does not see enough positive music threads the answer is simple. Start more of them.

It is a fact of life that controversy and asking for opinions will generate more traffic then please tell me the lyrics to "X" but that being said, I'll tell you what keeps me from going away to a Talk site. Threads like the "Raglan Road" thread. Beautiful, informative, threads Like that one are what keeps ME panning THIS creek.

Cheers

Rob

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 01:37 PM

Exactly, Wesley! And GUEST, yes, I think that is a very valid point, too. Still, it seems if we could entice some of those who have left, quietly, and entice new music people to join in, there must be more to say and share.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 01:26 PM

I understand how you feel Kat. Frankly I've lost patience with the tone of some of our threads and the quanity and quality of the BS. I love BS but do we really need threads on penis nicknames and Howard Stern ? Perhaps those two threads should have been combined. And I'm constantly amazed that the Mudcat responds to trolls. No wonder they come around here so often. I know I'm posting less. I guess I'll have to think up an interesting music thread to start now.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 01:24 PM

I think that part of the reason for less music threads is that on major topics, every base has been covered.

If you want to know how to sing, about a particular brand of guitar, the history of a well known song etc. etc. it's all already here.

Loads of music threads are simply answered with a 'click here' 'see previous thread' and hence there is no discussion

Just a thought

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 01:20 PM

I think the medium magnifies. Max's design within the medium magnifies it further. It's a 220 line, not a battery pack, the Mudcat.... so it can have a big effect, what one puts in the pipeline.

How I deal with it is that when I am fed up with music work here, at home, of which there is quite a bit (songsheets, lotta pain in the arse stuff).... then I Mudcat and trust that my mind is working on the rest, in the background. I return to it, refreshed, with new ideas and new energy. And-- when Mudcat is all stinky poopy, I take that as a sign it's time to do some more songsheet maintenance, renew some of the work on the spirituals project, and so forth.

I feel bad for people who only know "Stay" or "Leave" as approaches. But you know-- it's their choice. And we, who are friends with folks who wander off, are always free to message them back to good threads.

So yes, I think it has gotten pretty stinky-poopy, but I think it's just gonna be what it's gonna be, and that the best we can do as individuals is keep getting smarter and wiser about things in our lives, including Mudcat. You know, TRUST THAT, even when it doesn't seem evident-- cuz that is human nature, as well as being poopy.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 01:08 PM

Hi, Kat:

As a still relatively new Catter, I have my stretches when I wonder if everyone is permanently pissed off about one thing or another. I don't have a desire that Mudcat have any sort of Pollyannaish attitude toward life, because life IS hard, and this is a good forum for getting stuff off your chest. But hopefully, it's also a good forum for having a good laugh, being silly, reflecting on the good that is around us, and trying to support each other when we're going through hard times.

Years ago, when I was running a concert series I offered a rare bluegrass concert and the audience was mostly unfamiliar faces. I aksed several people after the concert why they never come to folk concerts and they said that they didn't want to come and listen to people complain. I thought it was a bizarre perception of folk music, and while there have always been protest songs as part of folk music, I've never characterized folk music as people bitching in the Key of G. But as is uusally the case, I couldn't convince the bluegrass folks that folk music is not protest music. Protest music is one samll part of folk music. I've always thought that folk music was the soundtrack for everyday life.

In the little time that I've been coming to Mudcat, there's been a real ebb and flow of issues. There was a stretch when everything seemed to be guests baiting us. Now, it seems to be unusually strong, politically. Left alone, I imagine that Mudcat will regain some balance. Maybe your thread is a start.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 12:28 PM

I need some fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 12:09 PM

She sounds a treat, CU! Just to clarify, though, it's not that I've stopped laughing, not at all, just noticed a general negativity and loss of members and music over the past months, and wanting to do something about that.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: CapriUni
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 11:59 AM

Oh dear! Has Kat stopped laughing?

Actually, I've noticed a general malaise about myself, lately, too...

I used to hang out at newsgroup Rec.Arts.drwho (Dedicated to the old British sci-fi series "Doctor Who" and all its spin-offs), and even developed an on-line alter-ego there of Eloise, the Pro-Fun Troll (to distiguish myself from all the nasty trolls who labeled themselves as pro- or anti- particular actors or writers), my (our?)creed was/is:

To slurp bandwidth with thoughtful posts, praising what we enjoy before criticizing what we don't, provoking laughter, enticing lurkers into the sunlight, and hosting the occasional hoedown. (BTW, I'd harvest songs to "play" at these hoedowns from the DT)

But ever since December, I just haven't had the energy, and I haven't gone back there. From friends who used to post there, the flaming has gotten really bad, and I still don't have any energy to venture back with my magical troll fire extinguisher... I started to hang out in Mudcat instead, because it seemed not to need Eloise's help, and it was a place for her to rest. But maybe it's time for her to dust off that extinquisher of hers and get back to work here, too. (Her original ambition was to spread the Pro-Fun Creed throughout the whole Internet, and from there, the world ... she is, after all, a troll, even if she is a nice one).

So maybe I ought to start some Pro-Fun threads at Mudcat... Threads labeled Pro-Fun are designated insult-free zones...

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 11:55 AM

Agreed, Art, but I'd still like to see Mudcat try to be a little more positive against that onslaught of Bush et alia. You know, some *peace, love, and flower songs*!?*g*

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 11:42 AM

Kat,

If you remember the Viet Nam War era, it was pretty chippy then too. Why should the G.Bush's attacks on constitutional rights era be any different? Living in the proverbial "interesting times", as alluded to in the old Chinese saying, often demands that we stand up and take sides. "Which Side Are You/We On" (to bring this back to being a music thread.)

Love,

That Old Folk Zealot (formerly a Folk Nazi I guess)--Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 11:40 AM

I have certainly experienced what you're talkingabout: advised musically minded friends to take a look at Mudcat, they might find something interesting, and they come back and say "Oh yes? Where?" All we can do is try and start interesting music threads, I suppose, and try to avoid getting too involved with the otherstuff. Trouble is, there is no obvious solution to the anonymous or pseudonymous skilful shit-stirrer, who is not arguing but role-playing. Presumably the people who run allthis attempt some sort of control, but I don't know enough about computers to know how much can be done in the way of access-denying to identified computers. i think we can mostly cope with good old-fashioned bad temper and bad manners, but some of the other stuff can be really creepy.
Anyway, there are plenty of music threads running at the moment: dig in!

Subject: RE: BS: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: annamill
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 11:33 AM

Kat, the world has become a scary place. Here, in our microcosm, we may be just reflecting what the rest of the world is feeling these days.

I miss the old fun and happy BS too.

Love, Annamill

Subject: Too much negative - bring back balance
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 11:23 AM

or, Does Mudcat have Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome?

It used to be when a major event happened, we'd have a thread or two, from the initial reaction we all felt. After awhile it would fall off or we'd go off on a music-related thread instead. Sometimes, we had many threads, as in the guns threads after Columbine, but all within a fairly recent time frame of the event. We also usually had some modicum of manners toward one another.

We also had lots of BS, but it seemed to be more positive, more erudite, or harmless silly. The tangents such as Hokey Pokey were grand!

Since 9/11 it seems there has been a harder edge, as though we are all more ready to snap at one another and take potshots. It also seems we've been focussing in a much more negative way. While I realise it is important to note who has passed on, in the folk and blues music world, at least, I remember when it used to be rare to see an obit; now it seems we have them almost everyday. I am not saying we shouldn't, just noting that they exist. We also have endless BS threads on world matters which seem to offer nothing except carping, posting of non-Mudcatter's opinions, i.e. editorials gleened off the web, etc.; some of them make the old orange/green threads seem mild.

When we first started having BS threads, I was one of the biggest contributors, no argument there. We had endless seeming debates about whether to have it at all and also how to keep it in balance. I always thought we'd do a pretty good job of it. (This is not meant as another one of those threads; Mudcat is music AND BS, as far as Max is concerned.)

I do see a good number of music threads, every day and I do think we have some balance, BUT the BS, imo, has become so negative we need to stop and think about whether we want it to continue in that vein. Is it a symptom of a collective post-traumatic stress syndrome? Who knows?

I just know I keep hearing from folks who feel less and less of a need to stop by because of this negative direction they see and I'd hate to see them go altogether as some already have done. Some of them have invited their music friends to join in only to hear back that when they saw the rancor and numerous off topic posts, their collective reactions were basically "you're joking right? It's a chat forum. People would rather discuss just about anything other than music."

Goodness knows we are inundated with nothing but negative from the world news and our leaders, these days. While it is important to discuss these things, I'd like to think that Mudcat and its music can offer a respite from the daily fear-mongering; an oasis in a sea of change and uncertainty through more of an accent on the positive.

Thanks,

kat