excellent judgment - bad customs

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 07:20 PM

Weeeell Lets debunk a few myths.

The differential between the price of beer between the Uk and Mainland Europe is not due to excessive tax in the UK. On the Shepard Neame's brewerys own figures (produced in Court 2 years ago) the actual duty on a pint of beer of average strength (say OG 3.6%) is 0.26p. VAT (Sales Tax) at the point of sale is 17.5%.

Now lets talk that through

Here in South Wales (Valleys) the rough price of a pint is £1.70 - In London £ 2.20 ish. In Whitstable (East Kent) £2.10

2 Weeks ago I was paying £1.30 in Tewksbury (Gloucester) and £1.50 in Evesham.

For my sins I have done the internal audit for a Social Club in Whitstable, and VAT returns for pubs elswhere in Kent. Sorry Lads and Lasses I know what the wholesale price is, roughly a pound a pint, or less when discounted for quantity.

If UK Catters feel that they are being ripped off on the price of beer, the Fault does not lie with the Government. It lies with the Brewers, and the big chain pubs.

Pesonally if the drinking population of the UK boycotted pubs and off licences for a week then the lesson might be learned - Don't blame Gordon Brown, its the brewers who are ripping you off !

Gareth

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: GUEST,rafflesbear
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 06:47 PM

10 ton? sounds fair to me :-) while you're over there fill up your tank and save on the fuel costs as well.

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 01:22 PM

The Emergency powers act was in this instance I believe, the anti terrorist act. It was because of terrorist activities in Ireland that the UK government sought, and were given, an opt out. I don't know about pouring the wife a drink, I think if you open it then it is, ipso facto your bottle. As I live about 650 miles from Dover I would need a 10 ton truck to make it worth my while. Especially when one considers the fuel costs. Wonder what the customs would think about that one?
Slainthe.....Giok

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: GUEST,rafflesbear
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 08:16 AM

teribus, can I get this right - 'Open borders were established in Europe years ago, the UK did not adopt this policy as it was not compatible with the anti-terrorist legislation in place under the Emergency Powers Act'

can you tell me which threat these emergency powers were originally designed to combat and when they were introduced?

and if that is the reason for the customs having the power to stop and search, does this mean that when I was stopped it was not because I was suspected of having drink or cigarettes, but I was in fact suspected of being a terrorist?

can you define personal consumption? do I have to drink the lot or can I pour my wife, mother, friend, neighbour a glass from the same bottle?

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: GUEST,rafflesbear
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 07:42 AM

obviously I stand corrected on some of these points, but as someone who has been stopped on a number of occasions while travelling totally legitimately with my wife and on my own, both in a car and in a van full of personal possessions, my experience is obviously different to your own.

'No point in having a law if it is not going to be enforced'

who enforces the law against the law enforcers who have been found to be operating outside the law? - I still like this judgement and I still wonder what is so different about crossing from belgium to france and from france to england?

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: Pied Piper
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 07:39 AM

Well Terbus it's nice to know everything is perfect in the Island of the Mighty. PP

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 05:15 AM

From my own personal experience, having travelled in and out of the UK frequently for the last thirty odd years, I have never had any problems with H.M. Customs and Excise.

Open borders were established in Europe years ago, the UK did not adopt this policy as it was not compatible with the anti-terrorist legislation in place under the Emergency Powers Act.

As part of the European Union, British citizens can buy duty paid goods in Europe provided it is for for their own consumption. This welcome change for the majority has been abused by some. No point in having a law if it is not going to be enforced.

H. M. Customs and Excise operate under strict rules. On returning to the UK you have a choice of entering through the Green (Nothing to declare), Blue (Nothing to declare -arrival from the EU) or Red (Goods to declare) channels. In choosing to pass through Green or Blue everyone is clearly warned that they are liable to be stopped and challenged. In searching your baggage the Customs Officer is not allowed to "disturb the lie of your clothing" and must leave it exactly as he found it, if, however, the Customs Officer does find something, he may then - legally - shread everything you possess, impound and strip your car to the last nut and bolt then confiscate the vehicle. The traveller has made his free choice and declaration in entering the channel.

Rafflesbear, you say that:
"in britain we have high tax on alcohol and tobacco, far higher than mainland europe (we also pay more for cars but that is not down to duty). we are in theory permitted to travel to europe and bring back as much alcohol and tobacco products as we like as long as we do not resell for profit.

in practice our customs rigorously enforce limits and people have their cars taken from them if they cannot convince the customs that their imports are for personal use only."

As long as we do not resell for profit, should read as long as it is for personal consumption. Those who make regular trips to the Hyper-markets in France and Belgium (i.e. once or twice a month) driving hired transit vans loaded down to the hilt are basically pleading to be stopped as their grounds for "personal use" would be unreasonable to support. I have not heard of one instance where mum, dad and the kids returning from Europe have had their car confiscated for the amount of duty paid goods they are carrying - the exceptions, before anyone mentions it, are the instances where drugs are involved.

You also have not been following the recent agreement reached regarding legal proceedings and the judiciary now applicable throughout Europe. Your statement that:
"...we are in europe and subject to the treaties we have signed and the european court of human rights, one of which must be that we are innocent until proven guilty and not to be subject to random stop and search.....

Under European Law, both "Habeus Corpus (Sp?)" and the premise that you are innocent until proven guilty by a jury of your peers, does not exist - both rights were enshrined in English and Scottish Law. The right of random stop and search has been a common practice in a number of European countries for decades, it has only been recently introduced in the UK and having exercised their right the police have to demonstrate reasonable grounds for conducting that search.

The present rules relating to H.M. Customs and Excise can be viewed very much like the arguements for and against I.D. cards - if you have nothing to hide they can do no harm and do not impinge on civil liberty.

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: DougR
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 08:24 PM

I can see why you would welcome the court's ruling. I hope it stands up to appeal.

DougR

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 08:20 PM

Does this apply on trips to Amsterdam as well...

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: Gareth
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 07:21 PM

A historical comment, H M Customs and Excise have inevitably acted out side thier legal powers.

Secondly, some years ago I spent a convivial evening in the Ship at Hollow Shore with the Tester familly working out the Cube and deadweight of the hold of the sailing barge "Portlight", or how many crates of beer could they ship from france and still remain seaworthy.

It was agreed that any local Exciseman would agree they were for personal use.

Gareth

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: GUEST,rafflesbear
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 06:34 PM

for mcgrath and our friends across the pond, we brits joined the european common market way back. one of the free trade principles is that duties across the community should be equalised.

in britain we have high tax on alcohol and tobacco, far higher than mainland europe (we also pay more for cars but that is not down to duty). we are in theory permitted to travel to europe and bring back as much alcohol and tobacco products as we like as long as we do not resell for profit.

in practice our customs rigorously enforce limits and people have their cars taken from them if they cannot convince the customs that their imports are for personal use only.

a party of daytrippers and a ferry company, hoverspeed, have taken the authorities through the courts for this practice and the court decided that the customs had exceed ed their powers and were acting outside the law.

my original message reflects the sense of injustice of being able to travel freely around europe and only be treated as a suspected criminal by the country whose passport I hold when I re-enter my homeland

rafflesbear

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 06:20 PM

"at last a victory in the courts"

Could you be a bit more explicit rafflesbear? Maybe a link to the story?

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: GUEST,rafflesbear
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 06:02 PM

the cynic in me agrees, but the optimist in me says we are in europe and subject to the treaties we have signed and the european court of human rights, one of which must be that we are innocent until proven guilty and not to be subject to random stop and search.....PLUS there are vested interests in europe making money out of us and hopefully willing to stand up for us if we cannot take on our own government

hopefully, rafflesbear

Subject: RE: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 05:55 PM

It will be reversed on appeal, there's no way this or any other UK government will take this lying down. We are talking vested interests here,and if the decision of the court today is allowed to stand after the appeal, then the government will move the goalposts, by bringing in new rules.
Cynically and pragmatically....Giok

Subject: excellent judgment - bad customs
From: GUEST,rafflesbear
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 05:33 PM

not much to do with music but a recurring folk theme is the victory of people against oppression.

How many british mudcats have driven through europe, struggled to find someone in france to show their passport to, driven from france to belgium, to netherlands, to germany without dipping below 60 mph only to be grilled by our customs when trying to re-enter our homeland, searched and questioned and made to look and feel small by the customs officials? people totally without humour intent on frightening simple tourists with no just cause.

at last a victory in the courts against this tyranny and time we took our rightful place alongside the free people of europe