Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 02:02 PM

Family folklore has it that my Irish ancestor settled in Tennessee, became a Tennessee Volunteer and went to the Mexican War, leaving his bride and 3 kids in Chattanooga. He never came back: he died of disease in 1847 and his surviving family then moved to Missouri where his son became a Confederate soldier.

Cheers,

Brian

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 03:16 PM

San Patricio, Texas.
History of San Patricio, Texas, from Handbook of Texas, on line: San Patricio Texas
Founded 1829, Mexican officials gave 86 land grants to Irish Catholic settlers. The municipality was established in 1834 with William O'Docharty as Alcalde. During the efforts towards independence, the citizens supported (it seems for the most part) the revolution.
In February, 1836, General Urrea surprised Col. Johnson's Texas men at San Patricio and killed or captured most of the unit. After the battle, "the Mexican army became an ever-present menace." San Patricio became a ghost town.
Not until General Taylor arrived in south Texas in 1845 was law and order restored as he established a dragoon of troops there. Although demarked as the county seat of San Patricio County by Texas in 1836, not until 1848 did it again have enough population to have a post office. The town was incorporated in 1853.
Efforts have been made to preserve the town's landmarks. World championship rattlesnake races are held on St. Patrick's Day.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 01:45 PM

Wondering which part of 'Mexico is not the USA' want-to-be historians do not understand.

The fairy tale you are reading is as untrue as Taylor's edicts were criminal, claiming that Mexico is the USA. It was and is not!

Taylor murdered a few POWs - so what!, he also murdered children and old women as he butchered his way south. Nothing new there, see Cromwell, Lee and see FDR - 'we suffer Jews and Catholics in this Protestant nation... take care' dah dah ..

Yeah right .. same to you

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 08:17 PM

May their souls rest in peace.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Marion
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 06:18 PM

Jed,

No, no, no! I don't want to hear about you working on anything else until the CD is in the mail!

Marion

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Robo
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 06:04 PM

"Adventure calls and some men run

This is their sad story,

Some get drunk on demon rum

And some get drunk on glory . . . . "


Interesting that there's a tribute to the San Patricios in Mexico City and another in Clifden, Ireland.

Rob-o

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 08:33 PM

For the history of the San Patricio Batallion, the University of Texas has the "Handbook of Texas" Online at San Patricios which should take you to the article on the Patricios.
I will extract a few lines.
"By the 1840s a significant proportion of the enlisted men in the United States Army were Catholic immigrants from Ireland and [what is now] Germany. The Mexican government started a campaign after the Mexican War broke out to win the foreigners and Catholics to its cause." Mexican propaganda insinuated that the United States intended to destroy Catholicism in Mexico...." In Nov. 1846 Gen. Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna organized American deserters with other foreigners in Mexico to form the San Patricio Batallion, a name it probably received from its Irish-American leader, John Riley [?often mis-spelled Reilly; US rolls said Riley] formerly a member of Company K of the Fifth United States Infantry."
"The Company saw action at Monterey, ...Saltillo..., Buena Vista and at the battle of Churubusco in August 1847." "As American forces rapidly approached Mexico City....Santa Anna decided to concentrate his forces at Churubusco where there was a fortified bridgehead...." He stationed the San Patricio companies with a battery of five cannons on the bridge..." [skipping the lost battle]
Those captured "did not fare well." Gen. Winfield Scott issued "General Orders 259 and 2263 establishing two courts martial for the 72 deserters (one convened by an Irish-Catholic officer, Col. Bennett Riley). Scott....gave 20 the death sentence. "John Riley, the leader, technically deserted before the war...was declared, so he could not be hanged. He received fifty lashes and the letter "D" branded on his cheek." From the other courts martial, Scott confirmed the death sentence for thirty. Those from the first trial were executed at Mixcoac. "the latter sentences were carried out under the command of Col. William S. Harney, who had the condemmed men fitted with nooses at daybreak and then left them standing on the gallows while the battle for Chapultepec Castle raged nearby." The men were hanged when the Castle was taken.
By March 1848, Mexico had found enough original San Patricios and new deserters to form two more companies.
After the War, the San Patricios continued as a group, patrolling areas of Mexico to protect the people from bandits and Indians. The unit was dissolved late in 1848.
While some members of the San Patricios petitioned the government of Mexico for help in returning to their European homelands, most remained in Mexico because they could not return to the United States.
Estimates place the number of Irish-American deserters at 40-60% of the San Patricio Batallion. The remainder were other foreigners and Mexican citizens, some of these Irish.
Mexico lost 870,000 square miles of territory to the Americans.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 05:48 PM

Nope and nope! In fact the town of San Patricio, populated by guess who, was fairly heavily recruited - still inside of Mexico!, and though it provided other armies with manpower it served it's own first. These Irish were not that excited by the prospect of being bullied yet again by a bunch of bible thumping perverts like they had back in the old country, simply they did not want into the USA.

So correctly, Taylor butchered some of the Particios as a warning to the rest of the Irish catholics in that region. The stated reason 'desertion' was and is bs since these men were not US citizens, they were Mexican!

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 05:02 PM

Not the right thread for this, but here goes:

Owen Wister, author of "The Virginian," collected "Git Along Little Dogies" about 1893 in Texas (his notebook for February-March, 1893). The chorus was:
"Sing hooplio get along little dogies
For Wyoming shall be your new home.
Its hooping and yelling and cursing those dogies
To our misfortune but none of your own."

Wister provides five verses and chorus.
Wister was a trained musician, so he took down the air as well as the words. From "Git Along Little Dogies," 1975, by John I. White, pp. 16 ff.: "Apparently this also remained hidden in his desk until 1932, when he presented the music to John Lomax, who incorporated it into ABFS, 1934."

[In 1960, Lomax and Lomax in "The Folk Songs of North America" threw out all the Wister words and music and tell a different story- and put in a version from the singing of a Frank Sullivan, "who learned it from cowboys in Idaho in 1910." This one throws in a "cradle" verse that has nothing to do with the rest of the song, and ignores the Wister material altogether. In my opinion, the Lomaxes cut the new story from the whole cloth.]

White says that "In recent years, several authorities on the subject have stated that the unknown composer of "Whoopie Ti Yi Yo" modeled his song on an old Irish ballad that began 'As I was a-walking one morning.'"
To illustrate, White included these words in his write-up, from Oscar Brand.
As I was a-walking one morning for pleasure,
Down by the still waters I joggled along,
I met an old man making sad lamentation,
And nursing a baby that's none of his own.
Ee-ay-oh, my laddie, lie easy,
It's my misfortune and none of your own.
Ee-ay-oh, my laddie, lie easy,
It's my misforture and none of your own,
That she leaves me here weeping and rocking the cradle,
Minding a baby that's none of my own.

Words from Oscar Brand, "The Ballad Mongers," 1962, Funk & Wagnals, NY. Where was Brand's version from? Was it cobbled together?
Lomax, FSNA, 1934, printed another version, "The Old Man's Lament," three verses and chorus, "collected and arranged by Seamus Ennis."
Although collected in Ireland, the song could just as well have been English in origin, since broadsides flooded both ways.
Is "Git Along..." descended from "lament, cradle song"? Possible, but not certain.

Where were the cowboys from? Hard to tell. The typical outfit moving cattle on the trails was a mixed bunch from the entire eastern half of the US, the British Isles and some from Canada and Mexico. Perhaps even the odd Aussie; some came for the California gold and ended up in cattle (some still come and get work on the operations in western Canada).

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 04:59 PM

I've wondered whether there being songs in Spanish about Los Patricios. And also whether those Irish who emigrated to Mexico instead of to the USA have had any influence there musically.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 02:57 PM

Amos that is surely an Irish version of the song, couldnt agree more. But that is not evidence of Irish immigrants having taken that song to the wild and wooly West and using the tune for "Git along little dogies". Maybe they did, maybe they didnt. The fact that you've heard an Irish version of the song doesnt throw any light on the question one way or the other. That's the only point I'm making.
Slainte/cheers

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 02:48 PM

Greg:

The version I first learned had the chorus beginning:

"Aieeee, aieeooo, me laddie, lie easy
Sure my misfortune is none of your own.
And it's weary I am with weepin' an' mournin'
And rocking the cradle of a child not my own."

THese are phrases that are typical not of English, IMHO, but of the anglicized Irish. I can't imagine an Englishman writing "Aieee, aieeyo" unless he was trying to imitate Irish -- as in my "Tin Pan Alley" hypothesis above. Nor start a sentence with "Sure".

But as I said earlier I am not expert in these matters, just a happy amateur! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:39 PM

Sorefingers,

I say that ballads were more characteristic of English and Scots culture than of Gaelic culture because, well, there aren't that many ballads in Gaelic, compared to hundreds and hundreds in the Anglo-Saxon dialects of English and Scots. Apart from the almost-epic tradition of Fianna songs, which had almost died out by the last century, and a few other examples [the Gaelic Lord Randall springs to mind], narrative songs are just not that common in Gaelic.

The same is true, by the way, of African American culture: when songs are about events, they tend to emote about them, highlight individual incidents, etc, but not give a narrative. So songs about disasters tend to be lyric laments, not ballads. These are tendencies, not hard and fast rules, so "Blues Ballads" do exist, as do Gaelic ballads. But they're not that common.

I was not aware that the debate was about tunes. In my mind it was about the songs "The Unfortunate Rake" and "Rocking The Cradle." Since songs like these travel on printed broadsides without their tunes, often they will have different tunes in different places. I was talking about the words when I said the evidence pointed to an English origin. Once again, I mean not to impugn anyone or any theory, I'm just saying where the (admittedly imperfect) evidence points us. As for the tunes, they could well be Irish--I don't even know if the tune you are thinking of is the same one I know.

Amos: it is possible that the version you know is obviously Irish without that meaning that the song originated in Ireland. The version I know is obviously Australian, because it mentions Kiandra. But the place name was introduced to the song by A.L. Lloyd. Before that, it was still Australian (collected from an Australian woman), but you couldn't tell that from the words or tune.

It would be interesting to see if there are systematic differences between English and Irish versions of these songs--what folklorists call "oicotypes." If there are, we could see which oicotypes were closest to "Git Along Little Dogies" and "Streets of Laredo," and that would confirm or disprove an Irish source for the Texas versions. But this is a huge project that Jed probably doesn't want to get into! Most often people in his position just fudge slightly and assume an Irish source. This would not stand scholarly scrutiny, but it's fine for creating an interesting program for audiences that still isn't historically impossible.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:13 PM

As I said it is my suposition that General Taylor was sung by the deserters, the San Patricios.

I base this on a few things.
In the liner notes for Great Big Sea's "Play" it is stated that the song was about a deserter, but if you look at the Storm Along family of shanties (Of which GT is a member)it seems more likely that the deserter connection is that it was a version sung by them not about them, and over time the story became confused. The only reference to deserters in the Mex/Am war I can find is The San Patricios.

You can not deny the connection of the shanty General Taylor to one titled Santa Anna, where Zachary Taylor is mentioned by name, it is the same tune. (Santa Anna he gained the day, Zachary Taylor he ran away... historicaly inaccurate but hey, it's folk music!)This connection between the songs is illuminated in Stan Hugil's Book - Shanties From The Seven Seas

As to why they would desert, references site the mistreatment of the Irish Catholic Soldiers by the mostly non-catholic officers of the US military. Mexico being a very Catholic nation would be a likley haven for such men, and they might be more sympathetic to the cause of such a nation.

So there :P

Nick

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:26 AM

There's an Irish "rocking the cradle/baby that's none of my own" song which was played on uilleann pipes by Peadar Broe and I think also by Leo Rowsome. It's supposed to refer to St. Joseph. Not sure if I see any obvious connection to the tune that I remember for "Git along..." though.

The tune to "Streets of Laredo" is know in Ireland as "Bold Phelim Brady/The Bard of Armagh", though I seem to remember seeing a comment on a thread some months ago indicating that there were older English (British) words to the same tune.

When I was a child, a commercial recording of SoL appeared in Ireland, and I can still remember my parents' outrage at "those damned Americans robbing an Irish tune". They wouldn't have had much knowledge of or respect for folksongs, which to them were just "Comeallya's"!

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,G
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:27 PM

About a year ago, in a discussion of "Git Along," evidence was posted from the University of New Mexico site that the song derived from calls of the Spanish-speaking southwestern cowboys. See post of 10 Dec 01: Yippie yi yei yippie yi yo

See "Cowboys - Vaqueros: Origin of the first American Cowboys," by Donald Gilbert Y Chavez. His article is reproduced at the Univ. New Mexico site, Vaqueros
An important summary of western words supplemental to Ramon F. Adams "Western Words" is included.
A fragment-
English- Yippie yi yea yippie yi yo
Spanish- Eppi eh alli, eppi eh yo
Translation- How are things over there? hey eh? hey eh?
and so on- see the thread and the website for the whole.

So- Eppi yi yea, vamos .....!

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 06:24 PM

Well, Amos , the words and tune I know to the Rocking the Cradle song, which obviously lead straight to "Git along little dogies" are:

Oh sweet baby lie easy
Your own daddy will never be known
And it's weeping and wailing
And rocking the cradle
And leave me a baby that's none of my own.

Nothing either specially English or specially Irish in that, no evidence of Irish immigration as opposed to English. What version do you have that points to an Irish singer in Texas carrying the song? What is the obviously Irish version you are talking about? Let's take a look.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 09:05 PM

San Patricios are a major interest of mine ... Tim O Brien did a great song about John Riley ...

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 05:35 PM

Sorefingers, Los San Patricios were real!
Look at the data and websites posted in thread 25561 about Los San Patricios. The desertions were from the US Army in the Mexican War. Their leader was Capt. John Riley. He escaped hanging but was branded. His history is documented on both Mexican and Irish websites.
Songs San Patricios

See the songs about them in this thread. John Riley is taught about in Mexican schools. I believe one of the songs about him is in the DT.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 04:18 PM

thanks for the references and comments, all.

I have been in touch a few times with Ed Miller on this subject; we've compared notes. I wrote a song for his last album (not in time, though) about a young Scots woman who was a battlefront nurse in the US Civil War.

I believe the UT San Antonio resources will be worth while. I've been trying to locate Dr John Brendan Flannery who wrote a great history called the Irish Texans (published by UT press). I have found lots of great stuff in that book.

Streets of Laredo is no doubt, one of the Unfortunate Rake, Bard of Armaugh even Saint James Infirmary Blues series of related songs.

I'll b researching a number of suggestions/thoughts from this theread. Thanks y'all.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 01:33 PM

Nick there simply were not enough deserters from the US army of the day to account for anything vaguely related to folklore as here discussed.

Re desertion to Mexican forces from the US calvalry, your evidence?

I find none and am not surprised, why would they?

Desterters did have an impact in the south elsewhere. During and the battle of New Orleans thousands of the British rank and file simply ran away into the bush. Most of these ended up in the hill country, and most of them were English ... so much for politicking... but I must say I can harldy blame them for running away, what with being shot to hell by an army of the native population of Mestizo, Black slaves and the few whites that lived in the south at the time.

Song The Battle of New Orleans writ by a descendent of one of the run aways Mr Jimmy Morris ....

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 12:52 PM

It is interesting to note that the leading exponent of conjunto (often called Tejano and less correctly Tex-Mex) music, Flaco Jimenez, traces the style to the mid-19th century German immigrants to northeastern Mexico (it should be added, to Texas as well) and their waltzes and polkas. Flaco Jimenez

Some Texas folk songs with Irish backgrounds may be found in William A. Owens, 1950, "Texas Folk Songs," The Texas Folklore Series, University Press, Dallas. (mostly grouped under British ballads).

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 12:32 PM

Nothing in versions of "General Taylor" suggest any connection with Los San Patricios.
There is nothing besides the name General Taylor, and the verse in some renditions from the spiritual "Mary Wore Three Links of Chain" or its occurrence in the secular song "Old Blue" and others (probably a floater or filler, added to songs from the late 19th century to mid-20th century) to suggest a date. The relationship to the mythic "Stormalong" character of the shanty is possible.
The truth is, we have only supposition about the age or authenticity of "General Taylor."

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 11:42 AM

It is my suposition that the Shanty General Taylor is a version of Mr. Stormalong as
sung by deserters, mostly Irish, who had been in the Americal military but fought on the side of Mexico in the Mexican American war. They were known as St. Patrick's Battallion or the San Patricios.
Nick

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 02:57 AM

Jed, Ed Miller does a fine song called, I believe, The Devil In Texas, to the tune of the Irish Washerwoman.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 01:56 PM

"One thing that IS true: ballads as such are far more characteristic of English and Scots culture than of Gaelic culture, so the
ballad tradition is largely an import to Ireland. But Irish folks sure ran with it! "

Oh and what makes you so positive about that?

Second if true - doubtful - it helps not your claim, since you are talking about lyrics while the debate is about tunes.

The English and the Scots do not share the same musical culture to the exclusion of the old home, Ireland, in fact quite the opposite.

In the case of the Rocking Cradle theme it is more likely not British as one poster already suggested.

Merely writing a Book about tunes and claiming them for the county where collected is not, nor could not, be evidence for anything other than some speculative publisher wanted pages with something however unlikely.

AND English language songs often found new melodies, even Irish ones!

Gospel Music is full of this kind of thing, there are thousands of ripped off tunes in these books but who bothers to document that? If they included a modern Chinese pop theme who would notice or care?

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 11:23 PM

Áine's suggestion is by far the best. Irish started to settle in Texas at least by the 1820s. Put "Irish settlement" in the search box at Texas Online website and over 1400 items come up. You will have to be patient with this website, errors in making connection pop up from time to time.
The 1850 census lists 1403 Irish in Texas in 1850 and 3480 in 1860. In the Mexican days, "whites" were lumped together in counts.
The common ballads and songs brought over from the British Isles are a rather poor place to start, since it is very difficult to demonstrate whether their origin is English, Irish or in many cases Scots. Examine the threads on these songs in Mudcat in detail and you will see just how difficult it is; also apparent are the myths that have become associated with them.
The American-Irish Historical Society Journal may be found at a nearby university; much data there. Also see Flannery, "The Irish Texans."
You also might look into "The Irish Channel" in New Orleans.
Many Irish came during the Civil War period; many of those who landed at northern ports fought for the Union and those who landed at southern ports fought for the Confederacy. I had a great grandfather who came over in 1860 and fought for the Union, but after the war he went to New Mexico.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 11:04 PM

G'day Amos ( ... Jed, Greg & Nerd),

I don't have any textual evidence of this, but I do remember hearing that the Rocking the Cradle song (collected here in Australia as The Wee One) ultimately traces back to The Christ Child Lullaby a song in Erse.

There are certainly versions found in Britain - but such songs as the Rocking the Cradle version travelled widely with agricultural labourers ... and any eveidence of the older, more sacred song would be better in pinning down the provenance.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 10:33 PM

Well guys, not to wax pedantic, but the version of "Rocking the Cradle" I learned long ago was clearly Irish by the language in it. Granted it could have been the British equivalent of a "Tin Pan Alley" or "darky" song -- an imitation of a subordinated culture -- but that's a discrimination I will have to leave to the real scholars; I am but an amateur in the face of the Mysterium Magnum....The fact that it was abroadside in England neither supports or invalidates either statement about its provenance.

A

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Robo
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 10:25 PM

Jed . . .

For your Civil War segment you may want to give a listen to and consider "Dixieland" off Steve Earle/Del McCoury's Mountain CD. Texas ain't mentioned, but it's a tremendous song about Buster Kilrain, who appears with the Killer Angels book/Gettysburg movie.

"I am Kilrain, I'm a fighting man and I come from County Clare/Where the Brits would hang me for a Fenian, so I took my leave of there . . . So joined up with the 20th Maine, did I say my friends I'm a fightin' man?/marching south in the pouring rain, we're all going down to Dixieland, ho!"

--Rob-o

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 10:14 PM

Sorefingers,

we can notice the "very same theme" of a lot of ballads in much much earlier literature. The cuckolded husband: Chaucer, Boccacio, Apuleius, etc. So theme is not a reliable way to place origins.

Anyway, the point is not where it might have come from in a sort of vacuum, but where the evidence points to. Any traditional song in the English language Might be Irish, but that kind of ruins the point of Jed's exercise.

I find that many people want to believe songs are Irish in origin because they have a political predilection to do so. I personally don't care where a song originated. In these cases, though, the evidence of first texts generally supports an English origin. Granted, collection began in England earlier and printing was more widespread there, so the evidence may not be reliable. But it's all we have.

One thing that IS true: ballads as such are far more characteristic of English and Scots culture than of Gaelic culture, so the ballad tradition is largely an import to Ireland. But Irish folks sure ran with it!

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 10:01 PM

Dear Nerd if you date the 'English' settlement from around the times of the Alamo you'd be fair close, but you'd be talkin several generations of previous residence elsewhere in the then United States; thus how English is a moot point.

Second ,and far more interesting - Mr Jed probably already has it in his show -, the King of Spain granted to Irish Catholic settlers a fair hunk of what later became Texas long long before there was any talk of the Republic of Texas.

Then to add more mystery of the Gringo there was a large contingent of Irish Volunteers formed in Ireland who shipping to Mexico joined the Mexican army which fought and lost a war with the United States.

If you are interested there remains still a Mexican War old soldiers club in Ireland and Mexico.

Lots of songs which look like they MIGHT be English in origin can be misleading the guessers when we notice the very same theme in other earlier traditions eg Irish/Scots. In fact the most likely explanation would be that popularity on the mainland often MISLED collectors to thinking the song belonged there.

But I think 'Streets of Laredo' is Pakistani and Git 'long lil doogies is Afghan!

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: GUEST,toribw who should be working
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 02:33 PM

Hi Jed, the Institute of Texas Cultures (part of UT San Antonio) has a extensive archive of photos and papers of early groups that settled in the state, including a lot of Irish folks who moved in near the San Antonio River in what was known as Irish Flats.

Tori

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 01:38 PM

Amos,

"Rocking the Cradle" is a British broadside of wide distribution. It's not necessarily any more Irish than "The Newry Highwayman," which overlays Irish place names on a core story that's obviously set in London. "The Unfortunate Rake," too, is first known from an English source. Since English descendants were in Texas before great numbers of Irish immigrants arrived, there's no way to demonstrate if "Streets of Laredo" or "Git Along Little Dogies" has anything to do with Ireland or "the Celts" per se. But clearly there's an affinity between Texas music and what we think of as "Celtic" music nowadays.

A good example with perhaps a clearer connection. "The Devil Made Texas" (aka "Hell in Texas") is a song that originally appeared on broadsides throughout the Southwest. Though the early broadsides don't suggest a tune, when the song was sung it was often to the old jig "The Irish Washerwoman." You can hear Hermes Nye do it on the album "Cowboy Songs on Folkways." The selection of tunes clearly shows an Irish influence in the region, though the words have no obvious connection to ireland.

Another great resource, by the way, would be Ed Miller in Austin, an Edinburgh native, folklorist, and great singer of folk songs. He's recorded "Hell in Texas" on one of his CDs.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 11:20 AM

Greg:

Well, it could have been carried West by a very talented Swede, for all I know for sure!! But it is Irish music, I am confident! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Áine
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 09:14 AM

Jed,

Have you contacted anyone at the University of Texas in Austin? Seems to me that would be a great place to get the kind of info that you're looking for.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 07:18 AM

The Rocking the Cradle song would certainly seem to be the antecedent of Git along Little Dogies, but whether that carries any implication about Irish migration patterns is not so obvious to me. there's nothing particularly Irish about the song or tune is there? Why not an English or Scottish or Welsh singer taking the tune with them? It was exceedingly well known.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: pattyClink
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 10:36 PM

I recall a book called "Covered Wagon Geologist", set when exploration in Texas and Oklahoma was literally frontier stuff. It recounted people singing, I don't recall if it was on the trail or in a camp, and gave a few verses of a song I recognized as "The Liar" and is in the DT as "Ten Thousand Years Ago".

In the boomtown Houston I knew 80 years later, folk music was a complete nonentity. Glad times have changed again!

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 12:51 PM

Streets of Laredo/St. James Infirmary/The Dying Cowboy/The Sailor Cut Down in His Prime. First 2 are in the first show, eh? (Bought the CD at the Getaway.)

Whip out Dan Milner & Bob Conry's "Irish In America" and look at/listen to "Billy the Kid". Born as Henry McCarty (in NY) to Irish immigrant parents.

"On the Trail to Mexico"
Lomax says "Song is a cowboy variant of the Caledoni-o, Canada-i-o, Range of the Buffalo family.

"Green Grows the Laurel"
Supposedly sung by Irish American troops when they marched into Mexico 1846-8 war. Supposedly that's where the term 'gringos' comes from, but I've heard plenty that indicates that latter bit's just a nice story. Info from Lomax...so HE'S who started the 'gringos' story!

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Áine
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 12:27 PM

Jed,

An excellent online searchable resource for Texas history is The Handbook of Texas Online. Give it a try and see if it will help.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:44 AM

The Streets of Laredo and its related Irish songs/stories was a bit part fo the first show. John Riley is already one I had in mind for the next show (I also want to stay consisent with contributors to the show, and we used another Tim O Brien song in the frst show). Besides, it's a great song!

I'll check out Pat Mendoza and the get along little doggies suggestions. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: MMario
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:34 AM

see DEATH OF jOHN rILEY

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:27 AM

Don't know if there is a Texas connection, but melody of When the Work's All Done Next Fall is exactly the same as an Irish song called Going Back to Miltown.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:22 AM

Have you ever heard the song "John Riley" written by Tim O'Brien and Guy Clark ? Excellent story of an Irishman that fights first for the Texicans and then Santa Ana at the Alamo. I'm sure you'll like it. It's on Tim O'Briens CD called The Crossing

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:04 AM

Jed:

The clearest example of Irish music in Texas I have encountered is the use of the old Irish song "Rocking the Cradle of a Child Not His OWn" (not sure of its proper name) as the basis for the roundup song, "Git Along, L'il Dogies". The parallels are so clear in tune and phrase that it dramatically demonstrates the folk process at work in the Irish Western migration in the late 1800's.

Well, I am not sure "Git Along Lil Dogies" is Texan, but it could easdily be. For that matter, the Streets of Laredo, which is definitely Texan, has similar clear antecedents in Irish song, but I do not remember what they are just at the moment...

A

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 10:54 AM

Yes, it was Pat Mendoza, but he is from Colorado. Sorry.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 10:52 AM

Jed, Aine has a section on this at her website, click here. Also, several years ago our local Arts Council had an act who did some of this--seems like it was Pat Mendoza, but I'll have to check.

Subject: RE: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 10:48 AM

This is what this question is all about. I am about to begin working seriously on the next segment of the show.

Subject: Looking for Irish in Tex/Mex Music/Lore
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 10:42 AM

I've been looking for stories and music from the Irish in Mexico, Texas and the American west. I've already begun this search and found many interesting stories and songs ... but it occurs to me that Mudcatters may know a few anecdotes or references for me to look into.

Do you have any personal stories/family stories? Any history/music sites, books to point me to? Songs in the DT? Or just discussion?