Genuine Heroic Folk

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: leprechaun
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 01:41 AM

Even in the second grade I wondered about nuns. I didn't know the word for it then, but looking back on it, "malevolent" comes to mind. Sure, getting picked up by your ears was painful, but the psychological cruelty was even nastier. Then years later, a fellow who went through the same school I did made it all clear for me. He told me, "After all, a nun is just a girl that something went terribly wrong with."

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 03:43 PM

Chip:

I think there is a world of difference, and the naswer to your question is no.

In other news:

CHICAGO (AP) - About 20 anti-war demonstrators were arrested Tuesday when they sat down in the lobby of a federal office building to protest U.S. policy toward Iraq, federal officials said.

Demonstrators also briefly blocked the entrances to the John C. Kluczynski Federal Office Building in downtown Chicago, U.S. Marshal Kim Widup said. He said they would be charged with criminal trespass.

Outside, about 40 demonstrators picketed with signs expressing opposition to any military action against Iraq.

Dorothy Pagosa, a staff member of the 8th Day Center for Justice which organized the demonstration, said those arrested had formed a ``circle of life'' to show their opposition to any war with Iraq.

She said the nationwide group has been formed by Catholic priests and others to protest against ``systems that oppress people.''

Protesters said they feared the United States was about to go to war with Iraq and said this would inflict needless suffering on that nation.

``I cannot tell you how painful it is in my heart to think about the suffering that is going to occur if we attack or invade Iraq,'' said Sarah Reschly, a 30-year-old Chicagoan who works for a group called Christian Peacemaker.

Another demonstrator, Ray Kaepplinger, 84, said he was a World War II veteran who had ``been through the plume of hell in New Guinea'' and didn't want to see another war erupt.

``As far as I'm concerned, President George II is as bad as Saddam Hussein,'' he said.

Demonstrators were unanimous in brushing aside President Bush's concerns that Iraq may have weapons of mass destruction.

``I don't think his claim alone justifies anything,'' said Janine Hoft, 43, of Chicago, an attorney.

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: chip a
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 01:19 PM

Those who are applauding this action as a heroic example of one's having the courage of one's convictions. I have a sincere question for you. (I may be one of you myself, not too sure) If the same nuns did the same acts to an abortion clinic for the same reasons of concience, would you feel the same way towards them?
I do not ask this to start an argument. I really do want to know.

:-)   Chip

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 10:48 AM

Amos,

I do not believe that I have been harsh in the least instance. As you raised and therefore named this thread perhaps you could explain to me, in what way you believe that these people are heroic.

You state in your post immediately above this one, that they MAY LOSE thirty years of free living - Highly unlikely as the first charge (attempting to "injure, interfere with and obstruct the national defense of the United States," punishable by up to 20 years in prison,..) would be extremely difficult to prove considering their actions. The second charge of "damaging federal property, punishable by another 10 years." - more easily proved. Wouldn't these sentences be concurrent and not consecutive? The last time they were caught, they were given a good talking to and released - I dare say that that is what they hope will happen to them again this time - pure publicity stunt. Silly thing to do at this particular time, as the authorities may take it a bit more seriously - including the security aspect of how it is possible for three civilians to force unauthorised entry to a missile site and remain there undetected for several hours - somebody's going to be in for a roasting on that score, and so they should - unless of course the silo was empty (SALT). Unless of course the security staff were watching it on CCTV - it would have been as funny as watching Basil Fawlty in that episode of "Fawlty Towers" where he beats his car with a branch. Or, maybe, more Monty Pythonesque particularly if they were wearing their habits.

"If you are dedicated to the "negotiation through overwhelming force" school of human relations, perhaps you would prefer to come out and say so." As you ask, I believe in:

- Nuclear deterrance, it kept the world at peace during what could otherwise have been a very troubled period.

- Non-proliferation of nuclear weapons, those who held them had proved that they would not be used. Aspirant countries and their regimes did/do not have the same track record.

- Nuclear arms reduction leading ultimately to the elimination of all nuclear weapons from the planet.



Mooman,

Political rhetoric is one thing, civil/criminal law is another thing entirely.

My comment regarding abiding by the law was more focussed on the actions of individuals within the legal system of the countries in which they were resident. Not sovereign governments with respect to international conventions where the oprtion does exist to sign up for one but not another.

"On offensive vs. defensive weapons (leaving aside nuclear weapons for the moment) what about a long-range bomber vs. a fighter/interceptor?"

Like the Tornado for example - same aircraft is configured for a wide variety of roles.

America has no great objection to the presence of inspectors - during the period of strategic arms reduction teams of Americans and Russians verified that each others weapons had been destroyed.

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: Amos
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 10:53 AM

Nothing to lose? Thirty years of free living? Excuse me?

Teribus, your harshness is unbecoming to an open dialogue.

If you are dedicated to the "negotiation through overhwelming force" school of human relations, perhaps you would prefer to come out and say so. I cannot envision, under current circumstances, a situation in which the United States would ever need to use destructive power 30 times greater Hiroshima,   taking 5,200,000 people to either instant incineration along witht heir cats, dogs, and infants -- or to life-long pain and disfigurement if they are lucky. Not a desireable capability, in my book anyway.

A

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: mooman
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 10:35 AM

Dear Misophist,

Then I must ask what "their proper work" should be?

Respectfully,

mooman

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: mooman
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 10:34 AM

Dear Teribus,

I respect your views but can't fully agree as I said above! I have heard it said in much political rhetoric (of more than one country) that they have the "moral high ground" in a particular issue.

The idea that the option exists to abide by the laws that suit you, while ignoring the ones you don't, is ludicrous.

Perhaps why the USA refused to sign the Bioweapons Convention in 2001 (which would have been a legally-binding treaty), as it would have meant inspectors coming in to check?

On offensive vs. defensive weapons (leaving aside nuclear weapons for the moment) what about a long-range bomber vs. a fighter/interceptor?

With goodwill,

mooman

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: mack/misophist
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 10:30 AM

Mooman: -

    My point is (I guess I didn't make it well enough) that such actions can be heroic when they come from some one with something to lose, but not when they come from a priveliged group. Had it heen bus drivers or office clerks I might have been impressed. If you think these clergy were doing their proper work, how can that impress you?

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 10:15 AM

Mooman,

The actions of these individuals, only succeeds in making them selves appear foolish and naive - at best it was an idiotic publicity stunt.

There is, and should be, a clear distinction between church/religion and state. The idea that the option exists to abide by the laws that suit you, while ignoring the ones you don't, is ludicrous. When indeed the case is that the "law is an ass", the way forward is to change the law by due process. I have never heard of any state that is ruled from a stand-point of intrinsic moral superiority. I also do not see a case for arguing that the view-point of the current American Administration is hypocritical.

On disarmament - all weapons are offensive/defensive - what defines which rests solely in their use.

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: mooman
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 06:43 AM

Then we will have to agree to disagree Teribus.

Certainly I agree the Roman Catholic Church has some considerable internal problems to overcome, caused by some within its community who neither follow their vows nor the laws of state. This also applies to members of some other religions but that is perhaps beside the point in this case and there are many other threads on such matters.

That does not in my view negate the actions of these individuals. Sometimes the "law is an ass" and sometimes the rules of a democratically elected government have no instrinsic moral superiority and, in this case indeed represent a manifestation of the worst type of hypocrisy, IMHO.

I would, indeed, support the disarmament of so called "weapons of mass destruction" of all (but not of clearly defensive weapons) states that possess them. Perhaps that makes me a utopian peacenik and, if that is so, I am pleased to be one.

Respectfully yours,

mooman (neither a Catholic nor even a Christian although I greatly admire committed members of these communities)

P.S. I do incidentally lobby, vote and campaign on such matters but am not a citizen of the United States.

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 06:31 AM

Wasn't the old idea of "Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD)" that yo didn't have to use the WOMD, just have them so the other side wouldn't dare use theirs? But there isn't another side now ... Maybe Saddam thinks everyone's on the other side? (Not that I'm sticking up for him; but they do things differently abroad, you know.)

Steve

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 06:13 AM

Heroic?? - Idiotic, ill-conceived and totally ineffective more like.

At no point during this prank were these three clowns ever in any danger. As it would appear to be their second offence, I would hope that the charge of damaging Federal property is pursued. Any sentence would probably further their cause more effectively than hammering on extremely well constructed lumps of infrastructure and smearing it with blood. I think that is what they are aiming for.

As to Mooman's question regarding what committed members of a religious community should do, the answer to that is fairly simple. They should abide by rule of law, as legislated by a democratically elected government. The Roman Catholic Church has got far greater problems to overcome within it's own compass before it attempts to rid the world of nuclear weapons.

I take it that all above who support the actions of the three Dominican Nuns, have lobbied their respective Senators and Representatives, demanding that the United States of America should unilaterally disarm. If you haven't then all this, including the forthcoming "heroic ballad" will be nothing more than meaningless, inane, magpie chatter.

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: mooman
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 04:19 AM

Yes...I believe so Misophist. I would go so far as to say that their vows give them a moral obligation to say or do something. What should a committed member of a religious community do? Stay ensconced in their small room and say nothing?

In any case I agree with their actions and regret that there are not more that challenge gross hypocrisy as seen in this case. They have my respect.

Respectfully,

mooman

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: mack/misophist
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 10:18 PM

Sorry Lads. I have no particular respect for clergy that pull stunts like that. Their status protects them and they know it. No jobs to lose, no family to suffer, no missed paychecks; you call them heros?

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: Nemesis
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 04:12 PM

It may be of note that the several women who broke into the British Aerospace site (I think it was) and smashed up several (um?) Hawks F10s? Fighter aeroplanes with bombing capacity anyway ... which had been sold to Indonesia .

The judge let them off after a huge and long trial because what they had done was in order to prevent worse carnage than the damage they had caused... they were morally justified I think was the judgement...

Anyway .. it wasn't that long ago

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 02:51 PM

There are no words which are adequate to descride such courage and commitment. Thank you for the post, Amos.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: PeteBoom
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 01:16 PM

I know Jackie Hudson - have for years. She taught music before she retired from teaching and moving on to far more important things.

Cheers -

Pete

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: mooman
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 10:39 AM

I agree, Amos, genuine heroic people fighting both against offensive weapons of mass destruction (how can such a missile/warhead be anything else?) and hypocrisy.

I'll be having a think about a song for this.

mooman

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:08 PM

War is peace
Freedom is slavery
Ignorance is strength.

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 02:24 PM

Interesting that the US Attorney's office spokesman Weatherbee justifies these by saying "Clearly, we don't view that the weapons of mass destruction issue is applicable, because these [missiles] are for national defense," he said. I wonder if the Iraqis feel the same way about their WOMD.

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 01:43 PM

Indeed, the Catholic faith has a lot of committed clergy and laity, putting their freedom on the line. School of the Americas protests has a number of them doing jail time in our name right now too.

Subject: RE: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 01:40 PM

Amos,

Please don't write such a long quote in italics. I find it quite hard to read. Thanks

Subject: Genuine Heroic Folk
From: Amos
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 12:55 PM

Ya want a song challenge that is worth something, consider the ballad potential in the following tale of three sisters facing thirty years for seeking to undo our OWN weapons of (defensive) mass destruction with their own blood and sweat.



While George W. Bush was agitating for war to rid Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction, three American nuns decided last month to do some disarmament of their own.

Ardeth Platte, Carol Gilbert and Jackie Hudson -- all Dominican nuns, who were arrested for a similar action in Colorado Springs two years ago -- went after America's own weapons of mass destruction, located right here in Colorado.


Currently behind bars: From left Dominican nuns Ardeth Platte, Carol Gilbert and Jackie Hudson
On Oct. 6, the nuns entered the N-8 silo in Weld County, seeking to disable a Minuteman III missile, armed with a W-87 nuclear warhead -- a hydrogen bomb with a destructive power 30 times greater than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima, which killed 140,000 people.

The nuns spent several hours on the site, according to a news release issued on their behalf after they were arrested and jailed. "In an act of disarmament, [they] hammered on the tracks that carry the lid of the silo to its firing position. They then poured their own blood on the tracks and the silo, and took down a section of the fence surrounding the site."



Proof of the case

The three are now being held at the Clear Creek County Jail, in Georgetown, Colo. awaiting trial on federal charges that could bring as much as 30 years in prison.

Though the nuns could not be reached at the jail, their designated spokesman, Bill Sulzman of Colorado Springs, said the nuns acted out of both moral and legal obligations.

"This was an act of disarmament of a weapon of mass destruction, which we've been on record as a country as being all for," Sulzman said.

A federal grand-jury indictment charges the nuns with attempting to "injure, interfere with and obstruct the national defense of the United States," punishable by up to 20 years in prison, and with damaging federal property, punishable by another 10 years.

Dick Weatherbee, a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney's office, declined to discuss the charges in detail.

"My understanding is they went to a missile silo and damaged property at the missile silo," Weatherbee said.

According to Sulzman, the nuns are seeking to assemble an expert defense team and will argue that they were obligated under international laws and treaties -- which supersede domestic U.S. laws -- to do what they did.

Though the subject is controversial, some legal experts argue that international law forbids the stockpiling of nuclear weapons with offensive capabilities. And under precedents established by the Nuremberg war-crimes tribunals, citizens are obligated to intervene against the possible use of such weapons, says Sulzman, who has participated in similar actions himself.

Weatherbee says he doesn't buy the argument.

"Clearly, we don't view that the weapons of mass destruction issue is applicable, because these [missiles] are for national defense," he said.



Shedding blood

Platte and Gilbert, who live in Baltimore, and Hudson, who lives in Poulsbo, Wash., were among five nuns who were arrested two years ago in a similar action at Peterson Air Force Base, during which they hammered on a Navy jet and poured blood on a satellite communications device. In that incident, charges against them were ultimately dropped. Sulzman speculates that the U.S. government didn't want a trial that would generate publicity for the anti-nuclear movement.

The nuns are currently refusing to post bond, partly because bond conditions would restrict them from further disarmament actions, and partly because they want an opportunity to make the international-law argument in court, Sulzman said.

They are seeking to recruit a "top-level" defense team, he said.

An initial hearing has been scheduled for Dec. 16, though the defendants have asked for a delay.

-- Terje Langeland



Regards,

A