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Cut-and-Paste Reminder
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:17 PM Look, it's really too simple to be worth arguing over. Every news story starts with a lead paragraph that give the essential facts the article will discuss. All one needs to do is write one's own intro, saying somehting like, "Wow, I heard this thing that really [insert feeling of choice here] me because [describe why you care about the topic, BRIEFLY].... Then you paste in the article's lead paragraph. Then you say: Here [insert link] is where you can read all about it. What do YOU think about the [issue, story, fact, opinion] there?" It's a matter of social skills and how to start a conversation or even, if that's what you want to do, an argument. Would you walk into a room and, with no preamble, start reading an article out loud, or would you say, "Look at this!" and explain what you are about to read, to get someone's willing attention and to have a conversation about it? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:38 PM Generally speaking it is far far easier to read this kind of stuff on the site it comes from, rather than cut and paste. That especially goes with extracts from newspapers. Long articles just seem to turn into illegible and unintelligible gibberish in the Mudcat format. Posting them here is self-defeating, for anyone who wants to encourage people to read them and learn from them. Where the material isn't going to be there for long, or when it's not accessible to the general public, a straight link isn't good enough. But in those cases it's easy enough to stick it on a personal website, in a fully legible form, and link to it from the Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Mr Red Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:25 PM The Shambles what does it matter if the letterbox falls off the door from the weight of repetetitve ephemera. The whole point about the net is connectivity - we don't have to repeat if we can link. Junk snail mail can't do that but it can deplete forests. Mudcat is at least forest friendly - and fog friendly unfortunately. Joe - go the Spaw route. Make yer own mind up and just do it. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: InOBU Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:33 PM Hi Nigel: Quaker plain speach lost much of the origonal grammer in the mid nineteenth century. Mostly thee and thy used, thou very seldom, for example older Quakes when I was a kid would say, "thee would say", rather than "thou wouldst say" Living english. CHeers Larry looking pasty |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: The Shambles Date: 23 Mar 03 - 05:16 PM What does it matter to us how much clutter a letter holds, if we don't open it? What is the point of us being encouraged to pass judgement or expressing personal opinions on clutter in threads we are not even aware of? It is only if you are the poor postman or possibly own a website struggling for bandwidth, that it may present a practical problem to be overcome. Our opinions on the points contained in posts should be encouraged, not our opinions on how the point is spelt, its grammar, its length or whether we personally care for the subject matter and where it should be placed. All those things can be and should pass without comment from us, or the management. If a poster writes to complain about any of these these issues, why can't the complaint just be ignored or the poster told to mind their own damn business? Joe in this thread. No argument with the topic, Larry. It could have stayed up top, but somebody complained about it being there. Has the BS split only been undertaken to encourage endless complaints about what is and what isn't BS? |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Mr Red Date: 23 Mar 03 - 08:46 AM I'm with Joe Apart from cluttering this forum I hate the proliferation of clutter as if it lends weight to an argument. It is the weight of a lead balloon. Repetition doesn't make the argument better it makes it repetive. Linking provides the verbiage just as well. This is a music forum, and music people have opinions outside that, but it is still a music forum not a spam bin. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Nigel Parsons Date: 22 Mar 03 - 12:00 PM InOBU: not decrying anyone elses faith, but "Does the quote completely conform to thy intent" should that read "thine intent", or is "thine" reserved purely for the deity ? Many dictionaries no longer give 'Thine' as an alternate to 'Thy' when the following noun starts with a vowel sound. As with An apple, An orange, A banana, A pear. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: InOBU Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:42 PM < Advice 1,1223: Friends may wish to attempt to be careful about cutting and pasting on the computer: Thee may consider the following. Does the quote completely conform to thy intent, or has thee inadvertently strayed from the truth in thy cut and pasting. Is the source one that thee is sure is truthful? Will thy friends get royally pissed at thee... > Cut and pasted from Quaker Faith and Practice... Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:32 PM Cut and paste what a waste - Leave it on the shelf. Cut and thrust, If you must, But write it for yourself! |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: The Shambles Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:27 AM Look........... I am still here waiting on the Azores and the only bloke that has turned up so far, is some beaten-up fellow from Iraq with a big moustache. OK if all these unnecessary MANAGEMENT signs are not being thrust in my screen, I will shut up too. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:52 AM If you want to know... I am a troll!That other thing is mearly a gadfly. Sincerely, Gargoyle Sulking in the corner. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: InOBU Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:38 AM Spaw's recipie for venting.... One large pot of boiling water... five pounds of beans of your choice, boil for a day or two... drain, season with lard and salt... enjoy... vent away... Sorry for putting words in your mouth Spaw... your welcome for putting beans in as well... Blllaaaaattttt.... Larry |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:37 AM Ah, well, Spaw, sometimes ya gotta vent... I'll shut up now. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:57 PM AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!JOE--do whatever it is you feel you have to do without comment and SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:32 PM Well, I guess I slipped when I referred to one of the most obnoxious trolls on the Internet as a pain in the ass. I should have shown her more deference. Excuse me for having an opinion. Mea culpa. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Willie-O Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:39 PM ...and you ain't as thought as I drunk you look... |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Bill D Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:08 PM well...I ain't as clever as I thought I was.... |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Bill D Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:05 PM tsk...forgot the disclaimer <font color=Red size=3> <pedant alert>it's <i>copy</i> and paste when you bring text in from a posted article, <i>cut</i> and paste can only be done with text not yet posted. </pedant alert><br> </font> |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Bill D Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:59 PM ok, ok...I'm leaving now.... |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: DougR Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:42 PM That makes sense to me, Joe. DougR P. S. Read my remarks to you in Beccy's thread about supporting the troops. See? :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: The Shambles Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:09 PM The story is largely in Joe's own words in the threads linked to above. I used to contribute to these type of navel-gazing threads and Joe would post asking us not to indulge in these as it only encouraged our many-named-ones and was counter-productive. Things have changed somewhat, I don't think that there is much wrong with The Mudcat that we can't encourage each other to sort out, but Joe now seems to think there is and starts these threads to point what steps he proposes to take to correct them. They contain such gems as....... Free speech is fine, but you're just a pain in the ass. -Joe Offer- What happened to not agreeing to what folk say but defending their right to say it? I am defending peoples right to be able to say what they wish, not just what Joe will permit them to say. Having a rule of thumb guidance on the cutting and pasting is not a problem. Turning this and other rules of thumb, into imposed hard and fast rules, by referring to them as needing to be imposed by being a huge problem, is not. It is an old tactic but folk still fall for it. Folk write and support the general principles of what is supposed to be happening and why, but a careful read of Joe's comments in the above prohibition/control threads will show what is being supported and defended by many posters, is not what Joe is actually doing. These threads pre-date Jeff's BS split and this measure alone has rendered all of this minding of everyone elses's business and heavy-handed imposition of control unnecessary. Can we just give this measure a chance to work first? What will need controlling next? - It may even be you......... |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: GUEST Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:04 PM I don't care either way but I think a poster who perhaps gives small relavant quotes from an article or a short precis coupled with thier concerns is more likely to be taken seriously than one who just quotes bulky messages verbatim from other sources. At times, it hasn't been clear what the poster's opinion on the subject they have posted on is or even why they posted. In that sense, Joe's rule perhaps will help some make their points more clearly. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Pseudolus Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:57 PM I'm not denying that Kat, and after re-reading my post it does seem that I was defending when in fact I intended to be neutral. The point I was making was how many posts and threads have come and gone over the years trying to decide if others posts or threads were worthy of being here at all. To me it's as ironic as shouting at the top of your lungs about how noisy things are. I do also think at times folks around here are often badgered about their opinions rather than just simply disagreed with. It doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen.....not really sure if this qualifies or not since I don't know the history.... Frank |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Mudlark Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:50 PM As a devoted member of Mudcat, I am glad to know that long cut and pastes are not allowed. If a 1 paragraph synopsis of the content, at least enough to whet interest, cant be managed, then material needs to be digested by poster. And if I'm not interested enough to go to "all" the effort of clicking on the link provided, that's my choice. Long posts are more difficult to read--if I'm going to read them I want to know that they are views expressed by a Mudcatter, not a journalist. I can read the newspaper for that. So thanks, Joe, for making the Mudcat Forum a more easily navigated space. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: katlaughing Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:46 PM Frank, take a look at the threads which Shambles linked to...he has said it, over and ove and over and over.... |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Pseudolus Date: 20 Mar 03 - 01:30 PM I'm feeling a bit like an outsider here, like maybe there's more to this story than I've seen, but from where I'm sitting, The Shambles has expressed his opinion and is getting the shit kicked out of em for it. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other but it does seem to me that an awful lot of posts get posted trying to decide if other posts that were posted had the right to be posted..... Frank |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: khandu Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:55 PM Hey RichM, Are ye trying to censor my right to use "McCarthites"? Spend your time playing music instead! ;-D I got no complaints about how things are being handled here. Heck, I consider it a privilege to even post here! Ken |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: RichM Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:23 PM Why not just stop censoring threads? Spend that time instead on playing music! And I don't like references to "McCarthites". It's a slur on the rest of us McCarthy's ! Rich McCarthy |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Nigel Parsons Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:02 PM Is Shambles aware of some method of Guest tracking not available to us mere mortals ? The third of the threads which he attributes to Joe was started by "Guest,Sheila". In view of the way Shambles rants about misuse of power, I feel we deserve an answer. I do trust that I will not now be identified as one of Joe's alter-egos. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: GUEST Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:54 AM US? Not unless you are the idiot GUEST who starts the cut and paste threads anonymously with no personal opinion included, Shambles. Not every policy here is about YOU. Gee, d'ya think people might have a tendency to forget Mudcat policy in the grip of war mania, right about now? I'm glad Joe has the authority to post reminders about policy, and I'm glad about this policy in particular. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: The Shambles Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:41 AM Non music threads like these, all started by Joe, all about what is wrong at the Mudcat. Which in a two letter word seems to be US. Thread proliferation control. Cut-and –paste prohibitions Separation of BS. And 'snitchers' corner. Help forum |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Nigel Parsons Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:32 AM I, for one, don't feel Joe is overstepping the mark in trying to regulate some of the content of the Mudcat. Shambles says: We live in different lands and if a poster may feel that their point can be made better by an article, that may only be available in that land and for a short time, that should be respected, as a rule of thumb, not deleted as a rule of iron. Of course, there is nothing to prevent a poster from copying a rambling article to his own desktop, providing a precis, and posting that to the 'Cat. Shambles is being a little disingenuous in stating "Joe did send me a PM telling me to go somewhere - I don't think it was the Azores.............. " I have had a PM from Shambles which, I am sure, would make any comment by Joe look tame! But, I notified Joe, and avoided responding. Of course, if Shambles thinks that PMs are the substance for general posts, I would be willing to add it to the general view. But I feel 'Personal' messages should remain as such. Of course, he may not recall the vitriol he poured on that occasion (when I queried the fact that he was diluting the message against PELs). Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: katlaughing Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:05 AM Shambles, you are nitpicking. For crisssake, people can provide a link, a couple of paragraphs, and a summary!! That's enough. Why in the world did you decide that now was the time to start posting your long discourses on what is wrong at the Mudcat, again? |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: The Shambles Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:40 AM Joe did send me a PM telling me to go somewhere - I don't think it was the Azores.............. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: InOBU Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:34 AM PS Joe... point of clairification... The reason for posting the Dixie Chicks piece is that AS A WORKING MUSICIAN, it is about our music and industry when pronouncements from the stage, or in our public life leads to McCarthite responces. As I said, I have had a booking cancled for support of Lynne Stewart, from a venue who supports her case but is frightened by what America has become. This is the exact nexus between people's music and politics. When what we say and sing is attacted by the industry, that is about music. I agree it is a call you could make either way, and for a working musician it seems more like a music thread, I grew up reading Variety, so what is industry news seems broader to me. Cheers, see ya in the Azores. LarryM No argument with the topic, Larry. It could have stayed up top, but somebody complained about it being there. That one was kind of a 60-40 judgment, with 40 percent of the reasons being for it staying on top. I didn't have any personal opinion on the placement of that one at all. My personal opinion is that I was proud of the chicks when they made their anti-Bush statement, and disappointed when they retracted it - but I didn't care where the thread ended up. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: InOBU Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:30 AM Dear Joe, Kev, Shambles, ... there is only way to settle this in a civilized fasion... the Azores is the most central location between us all, I propose we check into a pub on the Azores ... bring instruments, and discuss this whole silly thing. Of course, we may have to opt for cost to determine the closest point between us all, as I think flights to the Azores may be a bit expensive, and you never know who you may run into, for example, if Blair, Bush and the other guy happen to show up, well, it may get rowdy. Cheers guys... Larry PS Don't get crazy with each other... life is not about the hard edges. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: The Shambles Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:23 AM If people copy lengthy non-music information from other sources and paste it here, it will be deleted. Rules of thumb are OK. This does not appear to be a rule of thumb, or much of a gentle reminder and it is not proportionate to the problem. If it is non-music (or possibly even if it is music), and Joe considers it lengthy, it WILL always be deleted.............. We live in different lands and if a poster may feel that their point can be made better by an article, that may only be available in that land and for a short time, that should be respected, as a rule of thumb, not deleted as a rule of iron. If our leaders are to be beleived, this war is to enable freedom of expression. It is an irony indeed that peoples interest in this conflict, taking place the BS area set aside for such things, it is being used as an excuse to further curtail the same freedom of expression here. The argument for bandwidth may be a valid one but to confuse it with Joe's personal judgement that posts should always and only contain their own opinions, is not valid. Posts should contain what the poster wants them to contain and should be placed where they want them to be placed and we can all just ignore them if we wish. All I expect is a light touch, not to see 'keep of the grass' signs posted up everwhere, encouraging the 'Thread Quislings' to report the slightest misdeeed to Joe. [See the Help forum] Can we please just give Jeff's BS split a chance first, before the jobsworths and the pedants drive everyone except themselves away? More hard and fast rules only create more transgressors, most of them still blissfilly posting, totally unaware of Joe's imposed new rules of iron. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:51 AM "Cut and pastes", I detest on all topics, especially when they masquerade as posts. (The only exceptions being where it's something which is likely to be of continuing interest, and it's taken from a site that doesn't archive, or from a site that isn't readily accessible, with a paid subscription involved, for example.) The distinction between musical and non-musical threads, I'm not so sure about, since a good thread can often go back and forth across that divide. But as a rough and ready rule of thumb it seems fair enough. And trusting Joe's judgement generally is one rule of thumb I adhere to. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Dead Horse Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:14 AM Dear Personal Oppressor, Keep it up, esp when folks forget what we are here for. |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:47 AM Well, Steve, I really don't spend the time scrutinizing threads that Shambles seems to think I do. We've had a problem in the past with people dumping reams of cut-and-paste information into threads, apparently not even taking the time to read the information themselves. So, we came up with a rule, and I think it's reasonable. If I get a complaint and the complaint seems warranted, I delete the message. It got a little out of hand today, so I started this thread as what I thought was a gentle reminder. For most people, it isn't a problem. I guess Shambles thinks he's my overseer, or something. He likes to tell me how I should do my job. I don't think I have ever deleted a message he posted (except for duplicates that he posted in several threads). I can't figure out why he acts like such a martyr, like I'm his personal oppressor. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Steve Parkes Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:32 AM Is it just me? I don't have a problem with rules and standards: if everyone abides by them it will work. If they are so bad it doesn't work, then everyone will leave and the system will shrivel up and die: that hasn't happened here. I know where to find the BS threads when I want 'em, and I should think everyone else does by now. When bandwith and memory cease to be problems, maybe this rule can be dropped. I think you've given yoursef a pretty heavy burden there, Joe! It's not my idea of how to spend a fun evening, so full marks for dedication. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: GUEST Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:51 AM THANK YOU JOE |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:11 AM Mr. Shambles, All Mudcatters, including you, are free to express your own opinions - which you do, at great length. If people copy lengthy non-music information from other sources and paste it here, it will be deleted. Thank you for your cooperation and generous spirit. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: The Shambles Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:04 AM Joe. I know you to be well-meaning - but why cannot you please just get a life and leave everyone else to get on with theirs? Do we really have to have your judgment being constantly passed on everyone elses at the slightest of excuses, in Big Brother threads like these? The only opinion that seems to be able to be freely expressed is yours. Jeff's BS split has save us all from even reading the titles of BS threads, and the only way you me or anyone will know what a thread contains is by opening it. Can you please just give this split a chance to work? |
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Subject: Cut-and-Paste Reminder From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Mar 03 - 01:33 AM I know that the war in Iraq will be foremost in the minds of most of us. Discussion of the topic is welcome here, but please remember that the forum is a place for people to express their own opinions, and not just cut-and paste opinions from publications and sources on the Web. If it's non-music and it's longer than a couple of paragraphs, please provide a link, plus a summary in your own words. If it isn't music and it comes from another source and it fills more than my computer screen, I'll delete it. sometimes I'll replace it with a link, and sometimes I won't. Non-music discussions about war and politics may or may not be "BS," but they will all be moved to the bottom half of the Forum Menu - even if it's a discussion of the Dixie Chicks and their political views. Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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