Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Sep 03 - 01:42 AM

Another good recent Aussie movie about real Aboriginal cultural experiences (though not strictly Dreamtime related) is
"Rabbit Proof Fence"
about the young sisters who try to walk back home after having been "officially abducted" - or is that "abducted officially" as per then period Governmant Policy.
The reason for the name, is that they know if they keep the fence on the one side, they will eventually get back home, without getting lost. The (real) fence is thousands of miles long. Story based on some real history, or it might have just been a novel, can't rememeber.

Haven't seen it yet.

The "Music of the Spheres" is a very ancient concept in Western Society too, but we don't believe in all that non-scientfic rubbish now..... :-)

"close only counts in horseshoes" - as someone who studied some blacksmithing, Farmer Jones would shoot you if you said that... :-)

"Maps" - look at medieval maps, not considered "scientific" nowadays cause of all the "here there be dragons" stuff...
Also of interest, "mariners maps" which depicted coastlines as they would look as you sailed along them - reminiscent of "mud maps" as Rally Drivers use. The information contained in a map is only meaningful when intereperted in accordance with the philosophy of the design of the map...


Funny you know, most of my musical brackets seem to begin or end with Walkout.

Sorry for the silly frame of mind, the ABC is broadcasting it's regular Goon Show slot - love the musos they used to have... Max Geldray on now..

Robin

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Peg
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 10:49 PM

The way I heard it explained to me:

Someone versed in "our" (westernized American) culture might be able to see a ghost...they'd decsrbe that experience (I heard a voice cooing and felt a cold wind and the lights went on and off and then I saw the shadow of a woman on the wall) to someone and the other person might say "Oh, you saw a ghost."

Someone versed in Aboriginal culture might say they saw a person out in the desert, wandeirng and singing and they looked sort of bhazy and sparkling and when you turned your head a certain way they'd be there and when you looked another way they would not be...and someone would say "Oh, you saw someone in the dreamtime."

Ursula LeGuin's novella "The Word for World is Forest" seems to utilize Aboriginal mythology for the premise of the world the story is set in.

I teach a sewminar on Australian cinema and we always begin with Walkabout--good film to experience at least a subtle treatment of this idea.

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 09:46 PM

A 60,000 + year old belief system--as you said.--- That is just fantastic (in the best sense of the word fantasy.). And if you looked up at the sky as it rose, MARS would be looking, then, just as it does for us here and now since it has been that long since we were this close.

Alas, close only counts in horseshoes--or so 'tis said. Still, I looked and tried to comprehend what it was and what it meant and, indeed, why it mattered. I came away glad I was here to witness it. Jonathan Eberhart's shade was by my side---and we marvelled at it together---not really noticing the big difference from the way Mars usually looks. No matter, it will happen again---way down the road I've been told by people I trust. They do the numbers. I just watch and think some thoughts and then come away with some conclusions that I hope will be more correct than not.

Is this thread creep? Not if my time daydreaming might be seen as dreamtiming here in Illinois on this lovely summer's evening.

If this seems vague, well, it seems vagueness is the best way to look at the concept of Aussie dreamtime---and the planet Mars as well. From my window tonight I can see Mars---closer now than in all the years since the beginning of dreamtime as a concept. Neither is in clear focus, but that's cool.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 10:34 AM

You are right there, Bob. Any reference to the thesis that might be available, I would love to read it?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 10:10 AM

G'day Peter T,

I have one musical acquaintance who is also a musicologist and an anthropologist whose thesis was on woman's songlines ... and us Gubbas have difficulties with all this that far transcend merely not knowing the languages!

The whole framework of their (60,000 years +-old) belief system amkes anything we believe seem very shallow.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 09:47 AM

I had long discussions with an anthropologist who works on music among peoples in Arnhem Land and elsewhere in Northern Australia, as well as with some aboriginal peoples I met at a conference on spiritual teachings; and as Art says, it is completely mindblowing. The most staggering experience I had was listening to an exchange between the anthropologist (who had been essentially adopted by the tribe, for a whole variety of personal reasons) and an elder. They were talking about maps, and how to fool anthropologists. The anthropologist told the story about how the first time he went there, he wanted to get a sense of how the people thought about their territory (this is very important in Australia because of land claims issues). They were quite happy to draw maps of the songlines of each clan that (for example) would be like a stingray or a hawk moving over the sea or land, carving out the terrain. Then the elder at the conference laughed and said, "And he believed this!!" After the anthropologist had gotten a little more trust, they sent him to a more senior elder, who drew what the anthropologist called "the negative of the previous picture", the land as it would be seen from the spirit's point of view, boring through spacetime. Finally, about ten years after that, after some wild experiences, he was able to talk to one of the few elders who had never assimilated into Western culture. He showed us one of the pictures the elder drew of his version of the world as seen from the dreamtime -- it looked like nothing you have ever seen -- the closest thing I can liken it to is one of those scatter pictures you see in cloud chamber photographs of subatomic particles. The anthropologist said that he had been working on this set of pictures and ideas for years afterwards: as far as he could make out, the elder was trying to show him how the universe was music -- you can come in and out of music, it is in time, and yet not, and is both dimensional and dimensionless. He thought that the singing of the world into existence was really like the weaving of voices in choral music, and that each of these voices was a dimensional thread (a bit like the Hinduism of the Bhagavad Gita). In the conference, the elder who was there kept saying, "Yes, but not really."

I have had many discussions about this since, but I always remember that strange picture, the real attempt to try and describe the universe as musical (and why is music so weird anyway? why does it work?) and firmly believe that the aboriginal vision is closer to whatever is going on in the real reality than anyone. Not just because of modern string theory, or whatever; but because there are echoes of that vision in other traditions (Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist) that seem to me to be more than just part of some vague New Age kind of stuff.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Amergin
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 05:38 AM

mine is falafel burgerbiscuits

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 08:23 PM

Art:

Forgive me, but your last post made my jaw drop -- here I thought you were just a world-class folksinger!! I am boggled! A wind from dreamtime itself!


A

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 07:57 PM

One very important thing to not forget about in this thread about Aussie Dreamtime.

Song Lines

{START EXPERT KNOWLEDGE}

Briefly, large areas of the country are roamed in a nomadic fashion. The sites, and the paths between are connected with songs (perhaps another culture would call them chants) which have magical power, and hold together the structure of the world this culture lives in. The stories often have some connection to the Dreamtime. Many are about the creation of the landscape the group moves around in. Also the Painted Art (now being done in [semi]permanent media, and which used to be done in the sand - like Mandellas) is often like a cultural map of the surroundings, or may tell creation stires of the landscape. It can also show where important things like water and food exist in a particular area.

These things are all parts of each other, and really mean more when taken as parts of the whole.

{END EXPERT KNOWLEDGE}

That's all I know, one of the many things I know almost nothing about.

You'll have to ask others or look it up, sorry.

submitted by
Lumpy Diaperbrains of Oz

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: michaelr
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 06:45 PM

So I'm Buttercup Burgerbutt. Nice alliterations, but I don't think I'll be printing that on my gig flyers anytime soon!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 06:11 PM

Much more here than I'd ever thought. I feel like the Dylan lyric, "Something is happening here, but you don't know what it is..."
Relativity, in the Einstein sense, might be here too. Like reading Albert, when you think it is about to come clearer and you might be getting an inkling of what it is about, the smoke rolls in and you know that you really cannot see much at all. But the snipets here are pretty amazing. As with Native American tales in these modern times, the first page ends and then you read the rest of the pages--but they are a part of a large well of not known knowledge. Not being imersed in the wisdom of the whole culture keeps one from getting nuances and complex insights that make the Gestalt available only to the few who grew into it guided by their wise ones.

Peter and all, thanks for sure. If anyone knows some more, I'd love to read it.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 10:40 AM

From the Macquarie Dictionary:

n. In Aboriginal mythology, the time in which the earth received its present form and in which the patterns and cycles of life were initiated.

Which just about covers it, but the expression can take on wider or narrower meanings, depending on who is using it. Many of the legends and stories that could have been associated with it have died out as the old people who knew them have gone.

Much of the remainder has as much political importance as it has cultural importance - and it is probably politically incorrect for me to say so.

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 09:57 AM

Gawd, how grand!


A

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 09:41 AM

I don't think any of these are very useful descriptions. Having studied this some, and discussed it with some people who were saturated in the culture, here are some possible thoughts:

Dreamtime is to this world as dreaming is to our waking: but suppose that instead of our waking time creating the material for dreams, it was the other way around. Then the world we see during daylight would be a crystalized or realized part of the dream. If the dreamtime is the real time, then our waking time is its creature: dreamtime is always there, our waking time passes, and seems to pass forward. The images, animals, spirits, mixed figures that appear in dreams would be the inchoate pre-crystallised matrix of creatures -- so, for example, suppose in a dream you saw a mermaid, then when the dream "woke" into everyday, the fish part would have made fish, and the maid part made woman. The dream holds reality in suspension, awaiting daybreak (making daybreak in fact, out of the earlier daynight). In dreams, rituals, visions, we can go back (not back, but into) dreamtime, to the origin of things to refresh our sense of the infinite nature of being, the temporariness of our categories, etc.
There is more to be said about the singing -- singing looks as if it moves forward, but it too comes out of a pre-singing origin, music (whatever music is). When we sing, we sing something into existence, we choose a key or a tune. This is a metaphor for what happens when the dreamtime sings landscapes or beings into existence: song is being(s).

Hope this helps.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 09:06 AM

I suspect it is at least partically a failure of translation between the original language and English. it is hard to describe concepts for which one has no reference.

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 08:56 AM

G'day Art,

I got your e-mail ... posted more stamp scans ... then some 1880s engravings.

Back to the thread (none of that thread creep round here ...):
Now you need to ask about The Dreaming ... the other end of the same continuum. Dreamtime is the remotely ancient creation of the world, especially the Australian landscape and creatures ... then a person's Dreaming is their own personal relation to /place / land and totems.

It isn't something easily understood by us Gubbas.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 02:52 AM

In order to explain the "in-joke" Dorkey Diaperfanny......

It at least make Aussie Politics more interesting...

The following is an excerpt from a children's book, "Captain Underpants and the Perilous Plot of Professor Poopypants", by Dave Pilkey. The evil Professor forces everyone to assume new names. Lest we take ourselves too seriously, take a moment to find your new name and wear it with humor for the day...

Use the third letter of your first name to determine your NEW first
name:

a = stinky        b = lumpy        c = buttercup
d = gidget        e = crusty        f = greasy
g = fluffy        h = cheeseball        i = chim-chim
j = poopsie        k = flunky        l = booger
m = pinky        n = zippy        o = goober
p = doofus        q = slimy        r = loopy
s = snotty        t = falafel        u = dorkey
v = squeezit        w = oprah        x = skipper
y = dinky        z = zsa-zsa

Use the second letter of your last name to determine the first half of
your NEW last name:

a = diaper        b = toilet        c = giggle
d = bubble        e = girdle        f = barf
g = lizard        h = waffle        i = cootie
j = monkey        k = potty        l = liver
m = banana        n = rhino        o = burger
p = hamster        q = toad        r = gizzard
s = pizza        t = gerbil        u = chicken
v = pickle        w = chuckle        x = tofu
y = gorilla        z = stinker

Use the fourth letter of your lastname to determine the second half of
your NEW last name:

a = head        b = mouth        c = face
d = nose        e = tush        f = breath
g = pants        h = shorts        i = lips
j = honker        k = butt        l = brain
m = tushie        n = chunks        o = hiney
p = biscuits        q = toes        r = buns
s = fanny        t = sniffer        u = sprinkles
v = kisser        w = squirt        x = humperdinck
y = brains        z = juice

Thus, for example,
George W. Bush's new name is Goober Chickenshorts.
Clinton's new name is       Poopsie Liverchunks.
Tony Blair    -             Zippy Liverlips
Johnny Howard -             Cheeseball Chucklehead
Peter Costello -             Falafel Burgersniffer
Simon Crean    -             Pinky Gizzardhead
Pauline Hanson -             Dorkey Diaperfanny

This is just too much....

"I can't stands no more!"
Goober Burgertush


Submitted by Lumpy Diaperbrains

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 02:46 AM

"Is there any difference between them and the other mob these days?"

Beats me mate!

I'm gonna vote for Dorkey Diaperfanny!

And then of course,

"I had a Dream, but the paper roll was empty."

seeing how as Queensland Mining Wardens insist on their new offices having ensuites...


"it's all roo***"

Hey! Does anybody remember that book that came out with the various cartoons of the kangaroos - including the one looking at the semi with the caption "Roo-Ted"?

Robin

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 02:30 AM

Is there any difference between them and the other mob these days? At least the Dreamtime is firmly rooted in the reality of a people's consciousness. In parliament, nothing is firm, nothing seems real, and not much is conscious. I suppose at least it's all roo***

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 01:27 AM

ozmacca: "Naaahhh, no dreaming in the aussie parliament. Hallucinations yes, delusions of adequacy yes, nightmares yes. Dreams, no."

Yeah, sorry, forgot, Labor's not in any more... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 12:40 AM

Naaahhh, no dreaming in the aussie parliament. Hallucinations yes, delusions of adequacy yes, nightmares yes. Dreams, no.

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 12:39 AM

Well, it's about as clear as mud, but the mud is wattered down enough that I can see some light through it. Thanks to you all for trying. I will now access the site suggested and go from there.

Bob, I just sent you a rambling e-mail thanking you for the scanned aussie steamboat stamps.

Art

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 11:51 PM

Dreamtime: n, Australian. When Australian Parliament is in session.


Robin
Aussie

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 10:10 PM

G'day Art,

Amergin and ozmacca have covered the definition about as well as we can understand the spiritual base of a people who were described as the most religious in the world (but not by the missionaries who were at the forefront of their enslavement!).

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 09:13 PM

http://aboriginalart.com.au/culture/dreamtime.html

will give a very good and clear description of the dreamtime. As Amergin said, it's a combination of cultural heritage, spirituality and explanations of how the world came into being. Lovely philosophy which ties people to the land and to the whole creation. Like all socio-religious belief structures, metaphor and real life are closely intermixed.

For a real understanding of the dreamtime, speak to an original aussie, if there are any on the 'Cat.

Subject: RE: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 08:44 PM

Art, Dreamtime is diffiucult to explain...it is Aboriginal culture and origins...the stories of how they came to be...and of the world....it is/was their religion...their way of life...I have heard it called the time before time....

other than that I don't know what to tell you....but many fine tales come from the Dreamtime....

Subject: Ozstrine folk--Please explain dreamtime?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 07:12 PM

The ball is now in your court !! It'd be great to know.

Art