BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 07:01 PM

In my opinion, trying to decide on a winner in a presidential campaign debate is about the same as declaring a winner in a pro-wrestling match.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 06:56 PM

Yje only people you could truyst to be objectve woudl be opeople who don't care either way. Since only half of Americans even try to, it shouldn't be that hard to find some who'd fit the bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: DougR
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 06:25 PM

Bobert: you judged the debaters "Objectively?" I did too, and Bush won hands down! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: pdq
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 10:04 PM

Bill D...thanks, but most people lost respect for Wolfie many years ago. Maybe we can all chip in a nickle and send him back to his home town of Buffalo, NY, during are serious snow storm.

CONTEST:
   Ist prize, a week in Buffalo
   2nd prize, two weeks in Buffalo

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 09:57 PM

brucie:

Yer right, of course, that Hillary Clinton would maul Bush in a debate but that isn't the problem. Gore mauled Bush three times only to have a "select" audience (yeah, friggin' right...) say they thought that Bush had won... Hey, I watched them and if one was grading the two objectively Gore won 'em all... But, no, the media, who gace Bush so many *passes* that I lost count, decided to say that Bush won 'em... Everyone with a brain knows he didn't...

So, it will be the same with Hillary. She'll cream Bush and then the *select* audience (yeah, friggin' right) will declare Bush the winner, it will be all over the newspapers the following day and Billy Bob will vote for.... (drumroll).... Bush without a dianged clue.

Normal...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 09:48 PM

All this is is one more "current stereotyped popularity contest"

in almost any poll of this nature, the average person-on-the-street will name the most famous person that they sort of 'like' at the moment. They almost never pick some truly important, creative person who is not in the **headlines**.
   Start a Mudcat thread on the topic where folks have time to think and you'll get interesting answers!

(I have lost a lot of respect for Wolf Blitzer on CNN since he started fronting for that stupid "Web Question of the Day" where they ask you to email YOUR opinion on some inane topic that most humans should have NO serious opinon on. "Should Condeleeza Rice have her passport revoked?" "Should we put Saddam back in that hole and drop a grenade in with him?")..well, you get the idea...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 08:58 PM

You mean they didn't say "Who is most admired?", but "Who is most admired from this list"? But that's a completely different question.

I suppose that if someone, asked that kind of question, replied, "I would say the most admired person today in the USA probably is George Bush - but I despise and detest him", that would count as a vote in favour of Bush as the most admired person...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: DougR
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 06:52 PM

I just thought people would be interested, "H."

I agree with Peter T, however, that if Tiger Woods or any of the other sports greats had been included in the poll, they might have won. Unfortunately, the news story I read did not include the names of the other men or women included in the survey.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Hrothgar
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 03:11 AM

I wouldn't like to call you a troll, Doug.

How does "agent provocateur" sound?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 03:27 PM

I'm still waiting for some enlightenment on whether this was a poll for "most admired man", as Doug said in his opening post. (Maybe, as sometimes happens, with a separate poll for most admired woman.)

Generally speaking, I am all in favour of retaining the traditional usage, in which "man" means "human", except where the context clearly indicates "male" - but when it comes to this kind of poll, if the question did say "most admired man", I think most people would take it as just such a context.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 03:15 PM

LOL, Peter T. Reminds me of those cartoons that depict the differences between the (romantic) thoughts of the female and the male.

Seriously, though, I believe that name recognition counts for a great deal in polls- which, I suppose, is why politicians and others think it so important to be in the news, whether good or bad.

Here in Alaska, our newly-elected governor, Frank Murkowski, appointed his state senator daughter, Lisa Murkowski, to finish ourt his U.S. Senate term. There's an outcry to change our rules from allowing appointment to requiring special election- but in all likelihood, some people will vote for her because of her name familiarity.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 02:51 PM

I think that people answer polls the way they are expected to answer. You are at attention. If you really asked men, you would probably find that Tiger Woods or some football player or rap singer would be the most admired. In recent years it probably was Billy Bob Thornton until he divorced Angelina Jolie, simply because he had Angelina Jolie. Or Jack Nicholson, because he is the fantasy figure for aging white male baby boomers who bulk out (more and more literally) the male population.

In Canada, the most admired person, year in, year out, is Wayne Gretzky. It doesn't matter what any poll says.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: DougR
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 02:40 PM

Frank: of course you are right. Polls should be taken for what they reflect ...what people were thinking at the moment they were asked.

Harpgirl: I think your grandfather's curiosity about Hillary is understandable. That doesn't mean he (and certainly not I) would vote for her for president.

Some of you are confusing the issue of this thread. It is to be assumed that Bush and Hillary were not the only Americans named in the poll. Whoever the others were divided the remaining percentage points.

I think Bill and Hillary are between a rock and a hard place. They desperately want back into the White House but they knew Hillary could not beat GWB in 2004. I think they are backing Clark, but don't think for a minute they expect he can win. Nor would they want him to. They believe (IMO)Hillary will be a shoo-in for 2008, and that's what they are aiming for. Howard Dean may mess up their dreams, though, because I think he may well get the Democratic nomination for 2004, which would give him a leg-up for 2008 as a repeat (but not successful) Democratic candidate.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 01:50 PM

Bush wouldn't stand a chance in a debate with that lady. Whatever else she might be, she is one smart cookie. I thought she displayed lotsa class when her husband was not having sex with what's her face. And, I never did find out if that cigar was lit at the time. Does anyone know?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 09:03 PM

During her reign as First Lady, I wasn't particularly impressed with Hillary's plan for a national health care system. To me a lot of her ideas seem deeply steeped in socialism, and I'm not sure if the voters are ready to move the U.S. in that direction. Whether a move towards the left would be good for the country as a whole would be a topic on which many Mudcat tomes could be written....

Aside from that, Hillary Rodham Clinton strikes me as a very politically savvy and intelligent individual, and if she decided to be a candidate for the Office of President of the United States, I think her adversaries would find her a very worthy opponent. I, for one, would be very intent on listening to her ideas and would look forward to the presidential candidates' debates.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 03:10 PM

Doug, the problem with polls is that they can change on a dime from
moment to moment. The same question polled minutes or hours later can reveal other conclusions. Also, the specifics in the question asked are as important as the question itself.

I have no doubt that Bush is popular with a large segment of society.
The relevance of this remains to be seen. Bush himself has stated on numerous occasions that he places very little faith in polls.

If in fact the CNN-USA Today-Gallup polls say that Bush is the most admired man in America today, does this mean that Americans want Bush to be president? That question wasn't asked.

I hate to say it but I have little faith in the veracity of these
news organizations because they want to sell papers, TV shows and
be in the position of dictating public opinion.

As to Hillary, I have read her book, "It Takes A Village" and was impressed by her genuine concern for children. That's principally what the book is about.

She might be considered by the polls because she is one of the most
visible women in public service today. I don't know what the polls really mean in this case.

Polls fluctuate somewhat wildly during an election year.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 12:49 PM

Yeh. That's what's so funny about the idea...LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Amos
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 12:15 PM

Not to worry -- Hillary may be pragmatic but I will bet you hard cash she wouldn't look twice at Georgie Porge as a candidate for intimacy. No, no, no. Horrible thought!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 08:57 AM

Shissshhhhh, Little Hawk. Bite yer tongue... Don't give the greedy bastards any bnew ideas on how to keep the working man ignorant and screwed....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 01:44 AM

I think this is pretty cool, Doug, and it leads to an obvious electoral strategy:

Get George Bush and Hillary Clinton to ditch their respective partners (assuming Hillary has one at the moment)...and marry each other!!!!

This would result in a combination which would be unstoppable at the polls, and would probably result in the most lengendary and durable dynasty in the history of American politics...although I'm not quite sure who would be "wearing the pants". :-)

(It would also unite the 2 phoniest political party choices in the World into what they really are: a single tool of self-aggrandizing, self-perpetuating political and financial power, composed mainly of rich lawyers with even richer backers. It's sort of like that in Canada too, but a lot more fragmented at the moment. We have several phony parties instead of just two. Our basic modesty and decency as a country is the only real protection we've got. It takes time to sweep that kind of basic decency away.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: DougR
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 12:51 AM

I just knew you folks would love this thread!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: mg
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 12:12 AM

health care is a shambles now but it will improve by leaps and bounds. For one thing, we know what causes diabetes, and once the news reaches the doctors and nutritionists, that can be reversed. With that will come all sorts of reduction of medications, which do save lives, but at a huge financial and health cost. The whole realm of insulin resistance/diabetes is just starting to be understood, and is way underdiagnosed, but is related to a lot of the heart conditions people have. That will go away at some time. So we will pump the same amount of money into far fewer people with ailments. There will be much more preventive medicine. There is the internet, where we will share health knowledge. We have birth control, so we won't be overburdened with too many children as in the past, and will be able to provide more to those we have. We will have way more medical knowledge, or misinformation too, distributed way more frequently throughout the population. We will have better understanding of natural remedies and less skepticism. We will have safer transportation, so way fewer car accidents. Nutrition will be improved..probably we'll have ways to grow more at home with little kits...we'll pull out heads out of our asses about what children need for health...give them back their recesses, give them more play and more physical training. People will quit working so many hours...they will just demand more 6 and 5 and 4 hour jobs and get them...

At some point, we will realize that as poverty breeds violence, so does violence breed poverty, and we will insist on better social behavior...that alone will clear up more money for health care, bring more businesses into poorer neighborhoods, reduce the effects of stress among people having to live in violence and poverty....

We will get back to believing in sunshine, fresh air, sleep, ...all sorts of type B rather than A values....women will get off this treadmill that they put themselves on, and dragged other women on and work reasonable hours and have a more balanced life..if they want to be on the treadmill, fine with me..but I'm off it.

As other countries control their populations, there will be fewer disputes over water, the last danger. Fuel problems will resolve themselves very shortly. We won't be an oil-based economy long and don't have to be now for part of our economy, at least home heating etc. America will probably have kissed manufacturing goodbye perhaps for good, but we will return somewhat to our agricultural roots and produe better food, therefore healthier people.

And I'm a pessimist....

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 12:11 AM

I'm sure Hillary's bush is admired by some men, but not by Bill these days I bet.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 09:26 PM

Yeah, we have a national health care system in the US. It's called "Pay up or die, you friggin' commie"! Yeah, that's what we have. Nothin' more and nothing less. You rich, fine. You ain't then just die, will ya!...

Welcome to Corpoarte America. Soon to be the land of the very rich and a bunch of peasants...

(Yeah, Bobert. Well we got mauls and credit cards, son't we...)

I rest my case...

Hope a few of you folks have a month or two between yer working life and yer retirement before you check out but that is unlikely. And as fir out kids? Impossible. They'll all die on the job... Guarenteed...

Don't believe me? Ask the folks who bought the White House...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 09:06 PM

That's hardly a "national health care" system.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 08:53 PM

...we already have a national health care system here in the U.S. - it's the VA Medical Care System run by the Veteran's Administration. And anyone who's had dealings with that entity knows what a deplorable shambles a national health care system in this country would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 08:41 PM

Right from the start, Bill Clinton considered Hillary to be an integral part of his presidency and put her to work drafting a national health-care plan that took into account almost everything: geriatric care, children's vaccinations, pre-existing conditions, urban care, rural care, mental health, demographic distributions of doctors, the works. A lot of people liked it, but since "national health" gives conservatives a bad case of knee-jerk hissy-fits and many doctors and pharmaceutical companies see it as a threat to their profits, people such as Bill Kristol (author of the Project for the New American Century's "Statement of Principles"), the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, and the pharmaceutical companies marshaled their forces and managed to kill it with law suits and lobbying before it got off the ground. Since it was obvious that Hillary was a factor to reckon with in the Clinton administration, and since Bill considered her more than just "the First Lady," the "loyal opposition" felt it incumbent upon them to fling mud at her as well as at Bill.

She had committed the unpardonable sin of being intelligent, efficient, outspoken, and female. In short, she was an "uppity woman." Can't have that sort of thing going on, now can we?   

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: TIA
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 08:38 PM

The full score sheet is here (about 1/3 of the way down the page). Interesting to note that Other+No Opinon got 59% for man, and 54% for women. Sounds like "Piss off we're eatin' dinner" was the real winner.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 08:33 PM

Are there any succesful politicians that aren't manipulative? Is it even conceivable there could be one? That's maybe a reason for disliking them as a class, but hardly counts as a reason to particularly dislike one of them in particular.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 08:29 PM

Well danged! Here we go with yet another poll! I'll guarentee ya that if ya let me design the questions that rather than Bush and Hillary, it'd be Saddam and Minnie Mouse....

News=Entertainment=Lies=Buy-My-Junk=Underemployment=War=Corporate-Ripoffs=Big-Debt=Bigger-Lies=News.... Ha.... News ain't news. It's friggin' mythology based on corporste profits.... Nothing more. Nothing less! Oh, and them hefty kickbacks. Don't want to firgeit them...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Amos
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 07:41 PM

During the Clinton era she was perceived as a kingmaker. That set a lot of people against her for being manipulative, etc.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 07:12 PM

But if the vote was "the most admired man", how was it possible for Hillary to get any votes at all?

I'm still rather puzzled why so mnay Americans seem to find her a figure of hate - perhaps she's a bit pallid, but she comes across as a reasonably agreeable sort of person. Probably calculatingly ambitious, but complaining about that in a politician is a bit like objecting that a duck likes water and quacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 07:06 PM

I wouldn't really expect Doug to post statistics that didn't show George W. Bush as the absolute cat's pajamas, but then since he says it's newsworthy, let's take a look at it. HERE, by the way, is a link.

First of all, there is this:—

The incumbent president is almost always the most admired man in such polls, but it's not uncommon for the first lady not to be the most admired woman.

So that comes as no surprise. But then, there is this:—

Sen. Clinton, was named by 16 percent, while talk show host Oprah Winfrey was picked by 7 percent, first lady Laura Bush by 6 percent and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice by 4 percent.

Considering the abuse and invective that almost all conservatives, many liberals, and the press in general heaps on Hillary, to me that is what's newsworthy. Methinks she wields a lot more influence with a lot more people than folks give her credit for.

But then again, it was a poll of 1,004 people. It's going to take a few more than 261 people (1004 x 29%, rounding off the 1/16th of a person) to put Bush back into office—barring brother Jeb and Katherine Harris and Diebold voting machines, of course.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 06:50 PM

...are you sure? I would think she would be no different from any other human being on the face of the planet, occasionally tempted to succumb to one form or another of immoral indulgence. And if she gave in to temptation, she should not be judged differently than any of her male counterparts.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 06:35 PM

I am still trying to understand where 29% is a confirmation of admiration--what about the other 71%? Ditto for 16%.   

I must say, however, that the U S is among nations that have not had a woman Chief Exec---and they are dwindling. Think of India, UK, Israel,Pakistan, etc;   Hillary might well be quite good for us all---and---to paraphrase a David Letterman joke---she won't be putting mistletoe under the Oval Office desk at Yuletide.

Bill H.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: TIA
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 06:14 PM

Interestingly, Bush's 28% is down from his total last year of 39%. And, the drop is due almost exclusively to loss of support by women. Men named Bush at the same rate as last year, but he won a 16% drop in women's admiration. What's up Ladies?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: harpgirl
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 06:06 PM

I read this in this morning's Tallahassee Democrat and I thought it was very interesting.

My 80 year old Republican father ( who loves Dougr's posts) says he thinks Hilary is the one to beat in 2008. He said she will be president and no one will even come close to beating her! I was astounded! I gave him Hillary's book for a Christmas present and he said, "I did want to read it but don't tell my Republican friends!"

I didn't say he liked Hillary but he knows a smart person when he sees one! He will not say anything negative about Bush's intelligence, which gives him away. He doesn't think he is very smart but having all those Republicans running the country is fine with him....harpy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 05:47 PM

And good facts they is, DougR. Who did the other 71% admire the most?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 05:22 PM

I'm not clear about this, Doug - you appear to be saying that 16% of the women asked said that Hillary Clinton was "the man they admired most in America".

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: DougR
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 03:20 PM

Just the facts, ma'mam, just reporting the facts.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 02:25 PM

I thought this was certainly newsworthy.

Why?

(You trying to earn some brownie points with the Missus there, DougR?)

(P.S. Just kidding ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: Amos
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 02:13 PM

The results were from surveying men about men and women about women. I am willing to bet the sample of men surveyed was not a cross-section of our population but was predominantly WASP. Anyway, it's nice to see you now have a datum of comparable magnitude to W -- Hillary!

There was a time when Casey Stengel or George Steinbrunner or perhaps Erroll Flynn would have won the award of the most admired man in America. They probably wouldn't have made a decent president either. Patton? MacArthur? Although their claims to military insight were earned, not faked, I wouldn't have thought they'd be competent leaders for the nation. I don't think Hillary or George qualify either.

A

Subject: BS: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired
From: DougR
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 02:02 PM

I'm posting this as a public service because I'm not confident the newspapers read by my liberal Mudcat friends carried the story.

According to a poll released Monday (yesterday) conducted by CNN-USA Today-Gallup, George W. Bush was named "the most admired man in America." When people were asked to "name the man they admired most, 29% said Bush. Of the women asked, Hillary Clinton was tops with 16%.

I thought this was certainly newsworthy.

DougR