see inside the guitar?

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:16 PM

Most of the digital cameras we mortals can afford have a "closest focus" at about a meter or so, give-or-take a few centimeters. Unless you've got something pretty special, all you're likely to get by sticking the camera inside is a big blur.

Digital cameras generally can use flash to take the picture, although the built-in flash on most lower priced ones is pretty puny. Quite a few of them have an optical "autofocus," and need enough ambient light to "see" the object in order to focus on it; and in low (or no) light situations they tend to not get in focus and produce mostly fuzzies - especially at "close-up" range.

If you can get a camera where it can "see" the inside of the guitar, you can probably get an eyeball pretty close to the same place.

John

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 09:54 PM

Digital doesn't use flash! Needs ambient light.

~S~

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 09:44 PM

The creativity here amazes and delights me. I'll try the light bulb inside. Don't have a digital camera yet.

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: Nick
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 09:21 AM

Wouldn't a digital camera fit easily through the sound hole (if you have access to one) and take a flash picture without causing any damage?

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 02:51 PM

I agree with Ted although an alternative would be to borrow a similar guitar from some unsuspecting fool, take it somewhere and smash it to pieces. All will be revealed and you'll live happily ever after, just like in the fairytails where you appear to be from.

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 12:00 PM

We used to say take it to the airport and let them run it through the luggage XRay, but I suppose they're probably "too busy" now. And if they found a "made in ...." label, they might arrest the git'.

John

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: el ted
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:30 AM

saw it in half, easy!

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:48 AM

Bob - what a good idea. But it won't of course reveal any damage.

Murray, if my memory of the JLD website is correct, it says pretty much what I said. Also I expect the customer wanted the luthier to indicate a likely price for fitting, and that is quite likely to be affected. But it was the sneering tone of your post that got my goat.

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: Songster Bob
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:46 AM

I've heard of people photographing bracing patterns by putting a normal (low-wattage) light bulb inside the guitar, taping the hole over (or cutting a cardboard cover, anyway) to prevent light-leaks, then using a timed exposure with a standard camera ON THE OUTSIDE of the guitar. The braces show up as shadows.

Bob

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 09:21 AM

Thanks for all the tips, especially the one from JohnInKansas about taking the lens cap off the mag light.

As for "I can see no reason why the repairman (which is what I assume leeneia meant when talking about the "owner")should ask a customer to examine the braces" ---

Here's one reason: the potential customer and the owner (yes, owner of the business) live hundreds of miles apart and are not about to ship the guitar back and forth.

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:53 AM

Richard, if you can describe to me a "disposition of bridge plates and struts" that makes it impossible to fit a Bridge Doctor, I will apologise unreservedly for any perceived curmudgeonry. I can visualise no such disposition.

If the guitar in question has normal bridge-pin holes ala Martin, there will be no problem. If it is an experimental instrument with a pinless bridge and an experimental bracing system, then it might require some ingenuity on the part of the luthier, but if he can't figure out the way round it, he shouldn't be in the game.

As I said earlier, I can see no reason why the repairman (which is what I assume leeneia meant when talking about the "owner") should ask a customer to examine the braces.

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 07:06 PM

Murray, if you have to be a curmudgeon, don't be an ignorant one. There are dispositions of bridge plates and struts that make it impossible or very difficult (and in the latter case, therefore, more expensive, to fit a JLD Bridge Doctor and so alter whether it can be recommended.

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:27 PM

I bought a rear view mirror to put on a cycle handlebar recently - cyclists here need all the help they can get.

It has a bendy stem of metal rings and is a long oval in outline, so it would probably give a good view inside a guitar - it is narrow enough to fit through the soundhole on my guitar and can be turned and adjusted easily - maybe something similar would help?

Anne

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:53 PM

There are quite a variety of "mechanic's mirrors" in all kinds of sizes and shapes. You can likely find them at most decent hardware, auto parts, etc shops.

If you're fortunate enough to have one of the mini (2xAA) maglights®, remember that you can screw the lens cap completely off and stand the light in the cap for a "camp candle." With the cap off, and the bulb stuck in beside the mirror, you should have "360-degree" lighting of about everything inside. (It avoids having to aim the mirror and the light so they line up.)

John

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 11:29 AM

I don't see what the point of this thread is.

Who is the owner of the guitar under discussion ?

If the owner feels the guitar needs a JLD fitted, then he/she should just take it to a luthier and he will fit the device, no problem. No need to bugger about with mirrors and flashlights

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 09:53 AM

leeneia,

You can't try bouncing the light off the mirror into the guitar. It doesn't work very well that way, it can be done but it isn't easy.
Use a small pocket lifgt like a mag lite or a cheap purse flash lite and put it in the guitar and then use the dental mirror or a compact mirror.

OR

Pull the strap pin, if it has one, out of the tail of the guitar and look through there. A good guitar will allow this, A cheap, older style, or even a good classical may not.

Good luck,

Don

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 08:33 AM

Thanks, everyone. I did try the flashlight along with the mirror.

I'll see about getting a bigger mirror. The dentist's mirror is merely a circle 1 inch across, and it's very little help.

Richard, I appreciate your detailed description of what to look for. Thanks.

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 04:46 AM

Take the strings off, and then use a makeup mirror. You can even get a makeup mirror in without removing the strings, but it's then much harder to hold the mirror and move it to see everything. You can see much better with a bigger mirror, but you still need a light.

There are basically three types of strutting and some variations on them.

There's simple ladder strutting - struts just from side to side of the guitar. Highly unlikely on anything made in the last 20 years.

Then there's fan strutting. Usually two braces from side to side, one the neck side of the soundhole and one just behind it, plus 5 or 7 radiating from the middle of the one just behind the soundhole. Often on classical guitars. It is easy if you are not careful enough to mistake fan strutting for ladder strutting, because the fan braces almost hide behind the side-to-side onebehind the bridge. Been there, done that.

Then there's X-bracing. Typically Martin. One long brace diagonally across the lower bout of the guitar, passing about as close to the bridge as it will go, plus another long one back across the upper bout from the closest point of the first to the soundhole. These two meet the side of the soundhole furthest from the player's face, so the struts for a lefty are the mirror image of those on a righty. Then several others to make a criss-cross pattern with these, but obviously these other ones can't cross the long ones I first described.

For the JLD, the main thing is (if you look at the pix on the website) there has to be enough room to get the block onto the inside of the bridge plate.

The other thing your luthier may want to know is what if anything is broken or coming unglued, and that is harder to see!

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: mooman
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 02:35 AM

I've used the dentists' mirror for 25 years without problem. I agree with dwditty that you need also some light and I use a mini-Maglite which works nicely.

Unless the guitar is a very old or cheap one it is unlikely that the bracing will mirror that on the back of the guitar. It is much more likely it will be one of the variations on the fan-braced theme.

Peace,

moo

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: open mike
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 12:31 AM

there is a mirror which has a telescoping handle and
swivellng ball joint allowing it to adjust to different
angles. it is made for mechanics or carpenters (?) and
might be available at a hardware store..I think i got
mine when i was in a guitar buildiong class..the viewing
surface is probably 2 X 3 inches. the dental mirror is
probably smaller than 1 X 2 inch. there are a couple of
them on e-bay--1 1/4 inch round..see this link
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3185716289&category=3191
called telescoping inspection mirror
for plumbers, mechanics, and electricians...
or go to e-bay and look for inspection mirror
there are 3 avaialbe from one person and another
in UK has some for sale too.

Subject: RE: see inside the guitar?
From: dwditty
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 11:59 PM

The dentist mirrror works fine, but you need to get some light nside as well. A small flashlight or a night light work well.

Subject: see inside the guitar?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 11:26 PM

I am considering getting the device that JLD Guitars sells (as recommended in a recent thread) and the owner asked me to look inside the guitar and describe the bracing there. I've tried looking in with a dentist's mirror, but I don't see anything. Apparently the braces are too far in.

Does anyone know how to do this?

I can see the braces on the underside. Would they be symmetrical with those under the soundboard?