BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:20 AM

Diffrent species or not, these are a different *kind* of people than any we know, and I'm glad to hear of them.

The Kootenai indians tell about the Little People who were living in these parts when the Kootenais got here. They had large round eyes and round heads and a curious kind of hair that grew all over them, including their faces. If I remember rightly. Some say they are still around, back in the mountains.

I hope they're there, and I hope nobody ever finds them. Same goes for the sasquatch…

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:32 PM

What do you get if you cross an interstate highway bridge with an elephant?



a ticket for blocking traffic...

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:00 PM

But will they ever cross apples and oranges? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: MMario
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 04:16 PM

yup - that sounds about right unc. and the breeding rule fails more and more often as they discover more and more natural hybrids not all of which breed sterile offspring.- I believe natural hybrids have been found between cattle species, equines, felines, canines and many many bird species. and they can't always decide whether some animals are goats or sheep - I don't remember ever hearing about natural hybrids of goats with sheep or between species of the same - but bet they have occurred.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 04:10 PM

Some talk here about the meaning of "species".

I biologist I used to know told me that "A species is what experts decide to CALL a species."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 06:48 AM

Naemanson, sometimes species differentiation based upon morphology is a contentious issue, even among experts. As noted, up until a few years ago, the wolf and the dog were each classed as a separate species even by the "experts", despite the fact that they had living entities upon which to base their opinions and studies.

Regarding homonids, a documentary I watched recently still had diffent "schools of thought" arguing over what should be placed where. Opionions were based upon age of the specimens and cranial structures and seemed to be predicated upon which group of scholars currently holds the most influence that month.

Problems have arisen recently, because some work on specimens from Java, seems to have determined, that which is currently referred to as Homo erectus was a contemporary of Homo sapien in that region up until as recently as 27,000 years ago.

It is my belief that DNA testing will be the only way to give a little more clarity to the issue of Hobbit man. IMO, morphology may be correct in a lot of circumstances, however the absolute indicator of a separate species is not necessarily bone structure, but the inability to interbreed successfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 06:04 AM

Ah, bless..... Very male orientated though.. why not Thumbelinus?

If it is Frodo's skeleton, does that make Flores Island the 'Grey Havens'?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 04:52 AM

I misread this thread title as Freda's skeleton found. I suppose that remark will mean a visit from Nurse Ratched.
I see the NYT today has christened them Homo Tom Thumbus, which tickled my fancy somewhat.
Giok ;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Naemanson
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM

I think the difference between the pygmies and the Flores Island "Hobbits" is more than you might think. The "Hobbits" split off from the family tree back when Homo Erectus was swinging down from the trees. The pygmies are short Homo Sapiens.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 08:22 PM

whatever turns u on!

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 08:15 PM

When some big bloke is standing in front of you, yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 07:54 PM

Is size important?

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 04:48 PM

It'd be much less crowded if we were all that size. Evolution took a wrong turn to come up with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 02:46 PM

"substantiation of much folklore i.e. elves,gnomes, fairies, dwarves, goblins etc"
Certainly, Mr.Happy:
Sometimes life is more fun if you believe in the little buggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 12:34 PM

I'm inclined to agree with McGrath, species differentiation is usually based upon, whether or not, the crosses of supposedly separate life forms can produce viable offspring which in turn are able to reproduce.

Morphological differences in higher species can vary tremendously, as in dogs for example. Even the wolf and the dog have now been relegated to the same species, as they do produce viable offspring unlike donkeys and horses.

I would think that relegating "Hobit man" to a separate species should based upon the DNA testing that was mentioned in the BBC article. That said, we'll probably never know if Frodo had sex with a human and went on to have grandchildren.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 08:36 AM

They are morphologically more similar to Homo erectus than modern human beings, so it seems they are another branch off the first hominid to leave Africa, as are the Neanderthals.
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 08:20 AM

I can't see how at this point they can say "this is a different species" - they wouldn't have been all that much shorter than Baka (pygmies), and no one would suggest they aren't the same species as us. Just a smaller variety.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 08:18 AM

I can't see how at this point they can say "this is a different species" - they wouldn't have been all that much shorter than Baka (pygmies), and no one would suggest they aren't the same species as us. Just a smaller variety.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 08:12 AM

Perhaps some substantiation of much folklore i.e. elves,gnomes, fairies, dwarves, goblins etc

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: MBSLynne
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 08:11 AM

My family have said for a long time that we have hobbit blood.....we're mostly pretty small and my brother has furry feet!!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 01:25 AM

whoops, missed the BBC link, duh.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 12:51 AM

Well this Valinor has monsters. Flores Island is also the home of Komodo dragons. I wonder if komodos were on the island 12,000 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 12:43 AM

Why not? They seem to be able to reconstruct most scenarios these days...

I'm sure there must be some archeological evidence as to their appearance and customs. Maybe these caves (hobbit holes) will have some more evidence?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Mooh
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 11:45 PM

If this is a joke, it's over my head. Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 11:36 PM

I have a LOT of trouble accepting Flores island as Valinor

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 11:26 PM

Yes, and there were golf balls the size of hail too.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 08:31 PM

Big FURRY feet? Oh, durn it, you couldn't tell that now, could you...

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 08:16 PM

I always wondered how come my auntie was a clear foot shorter than I am... and I'm not exactly overly tall myself!

Did they have big feet?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 07:52 PM

Knowing the record of the U.S., they'd kill them to disect them to see how they tick. (The U.S. Forest Service once cut down what they thought was the world's oldest Bristlecone Pine, in Nevada, so they could count the rings. . . they found an older one later, and were told to keep their grubby mits off of it!)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 07:46 PM

Fun take on it, Amergin, but Repaire linked to the site a little earlier. Now part of me is fantasizing, thinking wouldn't it be cool if they found some of them running around alive. Trouble is, would we ever resist putting them thru so much they wouldn't be prepared to deal with; the record says we probably wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 07:37 PM

The story was quite interesting. They said that inhabitants of islands where there aren't many predators have been known to grow smaller over time. They said the "Hobbit" skeleton was about 18,000 years old, but since then, newer bones, as recent as 12,000 have turned up. And that native oral history includes accounts of "small naked people who lived in caves on the island." Next year they'll start checking out those caves.

Scroll down the page at NPR's All Things Considered to Ancient, Tiny Humans Shed Light on Evolution

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 07:32 PM

I think i'm a direct descendant. I keep the stepladder sellers of the world in business.

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: Janie
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 06:42 PM

How very interesting. Thanks for posting this amergin.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 06:41 PM

as a relative of frodo's, i'm thrilled and fascinated. and elephants the size of ponies - how wonderful!

Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: hesperis
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 06:33 PM

Cool! Amazing how often fantasy has a basis in ancient fact, eh?

Subject: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed!
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 05:16 PM

this is from BBC:

Scientists have discovered a new and tiny species of human that lived in Indonesia at the same time our own ancestors were colonising the world.
The new species - dubbed "the Hobbit" due to its small size - lived on Flores island until at least 12,000 years ago.


Frodo's Grave