BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 03:16 PM

And by this part...

However my membership in the Human Race has much more impact on the way I think about myself than the fact that I was born in any particular country.

...I mean that understanding myself in terms of my humanity, and my understanding of what I share with the rest of humanity by virtue of all of us being human, gives me a much better perspective about the world and my place in it, than the matter of which country I live in and where I was born.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 03:03 PM

This is interesting, because while many people took the original question to mean what makes you proud to be (whatever), I took it to mean something else. Maybe my post would be easier to understand if I put it this way:

I can't feel proud of the contribution I make as a citizen of the country in which I live, unless I live up to the words that I put in my first post to this thread, which I interpret to mean the following: I have a responsibility as a citizen of this country to do my best to try to make it the best it can be. If I do live up to those words to the best of my ability, I can feel good about my efforts and about my contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:48 PM

John Hardly,

That was quite good!!

I'm proud of your writing ability!-except that..

No, I'm joking..I really enjoyed reading it plus it gave food for thought about the problems with whole hearted pridefulness.

And I agree, this world sucks..

but some parts of it sure are wonderful!



Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: John Hardly
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:12 AM

I'm a very proud American. Well, not very, but I am a kinda proud American.

...well, not American exactly, I mean, not all of America, but I am a proud midwesterner.

...well, not proud exactly because that, in and of itself, would disqualify me from being a midwesterner. So I guess I'm a proud Hoosier.

...yeah. I'm a proud Hoosier. ....well, except that Gary, Logansport, and Terra Haute are three of the ugliest cities in the entire world. So I guess I'm not a proud Hoosier exactly.

But I'm really proud of my family.   ...well, the part....okay, the few who are not slackers. But they live pretty far away. So I'm proud of my close family and the folks on my street. Yeah. The folks on my street...

....well, except for the guys who have pink flamingos on display in their front yard. ...Oh, and the guy who works on his car in his driveway.

So-o-o-o-o-o I guess I'm proud of me and my wife. ....well, except that she likes neither my mandolin nor my banjo.

...but man am I proud of me.

Except I can't seem to make a buck, I'm forgetful, and never amounted to nuthin'.

Man, this world sure sucks.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Stu
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:25 AM

I have to say I don't feel pride in being English particularly. As a folkie you realise the depth of anti-English feeling and when you are so reviled by your neighbours it can dent your self-confidence a bit.

But I love England the land. The fells, hills and dales, rivers and streams, mountains and plains. I feel a deep connection to the land that is ancient in its roots, and this is reflected in the music I love and play.

As for Martin's point about people being influenced towards goodness, I sort of agree but the other way around. I believe people are good at heart and are influenced towards evil.

I have taken Buddhist teachings in the past, and these have given me great heart as they concentrate on compassion towards all living beings as the basis for human existence, and this struck a chord with me.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: John O'L
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 09:13 PM

I'm sometimes proud to be Australian, but I see that as a fault. It seems a bit petty. I think I should be above those feelings. It seems to me that such feelings are part of what's wrong with the world.

I too think it's a little bizarre to be proud of something which is no more than an accident of birth. Relieved, lucky, glad, perhaps but proud? Dunno about that.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 08:30 PM

To be proud of your citizenship is to be a Nationalist. I'm not a Nationalist but I am proud of Canada when Canada makes tough decisions based on the will of the people. I am proud that Canada can stand on its own two feet and not be swayed by the super power to the South.

I am definitely not proud to be a member of the human race. It seems that I spend alot of time trying to overcome some of the baser, human instincts. When you look at the crimes against humanity by other human beings, how can you be proud?

I think pride is a personal thing. You are either proud of yourself and your conduct in this life, or you're not. How can you be proud of your country when you have had little to do with its history and you are only there by chance of birth?

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:45 PM

interesting thread....

to be honest quite a lot of what we were brought to be proud of, in England in the 1950's is a bit discredited nowadays.

i think whether you believe in anything or nothing, you have to behave yourself.

if you're an atheist (and to be honest I can't put my hand on my heart and say I have a faith all the time - if faith was freely available, it wouldn't be a miracle)

like I started that sentence if you're an atheist , then its important to be good, because this is the only chance you have to make a success of things - no afterlife.

if you do your best most of the time, you're entitled to be proud.

I wish I could claim that much

all the best

big al whittle

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:12 PM

Pride in one's country: I have that for Canada, although at times it does things that make me very sad inside. Does anyone here separate pride in one's country and patriotism?

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 05:26 PM

That's a perfectly understandable viewpoint, Martin. You can make a good argument for the idea that people have to be influenced toward goodness (and, yes, I think they definitely do) or that they are often influenced by environment toward being destructive (and that also happens).

It depends whether you're talking about the eternal soul or the temporal personality.

We'd have to get into some pretty deep and involved stuff to deal with that dichotomy.

Just to put it briefly...I think people are intrinsically good, because I do not think people really ARE their temporal, mortal personality. It's a mask. It passes away. I think their eternal soul is of God, and is entirely pure. I do NOT think their temporary personalities are pure by any means!

Did God make the personality? I don't think so. The personality made itself, by imagining itself to be separate in the first place (an error in perception). It identifies itself with a temporary, mortal body. It usually thinks it IS the body. As such, it is mainly concerned with issues of survival, safety, security, pleasure, avoiding pain, gaining prestige, being "right", making others "wrong", and avoiding loss. As such, it's usually inclined to be selfish, fearful, acquisitive, greedy, jealous, vengeful, vindictive, argumentative, and so on...that's where the common bad behaviours stem from. Like animals...only more complicated. And that's why we need to bring up children with good values, so that they can develop some motivation to overcome those negative tendencies. We try to teach them conscience, responsibility, honesty, fairness, generosity, and other such virtues. We try to set a good example for them.

Our personalities are caught up in a struggle between complete egotism and fear versus love and social responsibility. Religions, when they are applied in a healthy manner, can do much to encourage people in the right direction. An awareness of the existence of God can do much to encourage people in a constructive direction...depending on how that awareness is used! It can also be used to steer them toward prejudice and destruction.

So, what I'm saying is that the personality is NOT born good...or evil...but it's born with a strong potential to go either way. It has a very limited awareness, based on its idea of separation from others. I'm saying that the eternal soul IS good (knowing its unity with others), but what you deal with, with most people on a daily basis is mainly their outer ego personality. They themselves are not aware of their eternal nature in the least. If they were, they would become very loving and harmless.

When I say that people are basically good, I'm talking about the part of them that is eternally of God...their soul...not their outer personality. I don't mean they are basically inclined to behave well... (grin) No, indeed. I remember what kids were like in grade school. A lot of them were mean, rotten, sadistic little creeps. That was just their danged fearful little raging personality flaunting itself around, but it'll be gone not too far down the road...in 60 or 70 years or less. Their soul will not be gone. Their soul is of God. Their personality is just a temporary dramatic part, kind of like the dramatic parts that people often play when they post on the Internet under some symbolic name they have chosen.

Some dramas really suck! :-) (depending on your viewpoint, of course)

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:47 PM

Martin you are completely right of course and a fine example of a patriotic *ank. It's ok to call you a yank isn't it?
It's so funny seeing you trying to be angry without the profanity.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:40 PM

Guest, I see nothing wrong with what that devout christian believes. Someone with spirituality and insight into this philosophy has influenced him into this thinking.

I don't see my co-worker trying to save anyone, just making a point.

who influenced you into yours? A drug dealer perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:34 PM

So, your Mom isn't proud of you? Poor lad.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:31 PM

IMHO, one cannot be "proud" of anything one has not accomplished. Therefore I am not proud of my gender, although I'm glad of what I am, and I'm not proud to be American, I'm just bloody grateful that I lucked into being born here. My mom, who survived the concentration camps of WWII to get here and become an American citizen, on the other hand, can be proud to be American (although I doubt that she is).
I really find it funny, or sad, when someone is proud of their race - and I don't mean proud of what their ancestors or co-race members have accomplished, I mean proud of BEING what they are. I don't see how you can be proud of something that happened to you without you having any say about it.
Michael Jackson can be proud to be white, or a woman, though!

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: John Hardly
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:29 PM

"Oh, well, I'm proud to be human..." -Little Hawk

Spoken with the true conviction of a man who has watched a cat lick its own butt.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:07 PM

Martin devout christians need to think that. They then have a reason to try and save those they think are on a dangerous path to heathendom.

The opposite could also be true. We are all born good, but our differing raising and influences are what turns some bad?

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:54 PM

Little Hawk, A man I work with, a religious man and a devout Christian kind of has me believing that people are not born good, but have to be raised or influenced to be good.

In other words, people are not basically good, but have the potential to be.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:49 PM

Oh, well, I'm proud to be human. To be human is good. I'm also proud to be a child of God, and a living being, period.

As for Canada, yeah, I like Canada, basically. It's a pretty good country as countries go. I'm patriotic. But I focus more on being human than on being Canadian.

I don't worry that some humans do bad things. They always have and they always will. It doesn't affect my opinion of the basic value of being human. It just causes me to take a certain amount of care in life, when dealing with other people...

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:44 PM

[Carl] Schurz,in a speech delivered at the Anti-Imperialistic Conference, Chicago, Illinois, October 17, 1899: "I confidently trust that the American people will prove themselves…too wise not to detect the false pride or the dangerous ambitions or the selfish schemes which so often hide themselves under that deceptive cry of mock patriotism: 'Our country, right or wrong!' They will not fail to recognize that our dignity, our free institutions and the peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: 'Our country—when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right.'"

G. K. Chesterton would probably have agreed with Schurz, since he wrote in 1901, "'My country, right or wrong' is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.'"

I am proud to be an American, to be a veteran, and to have achieved whatever it is that I've achieved. None of that means that I have done it alone, or that it might not have been done better. It does not mean that I blindly cleave to one political party or one set of ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:40 PM

good for you G-Silver.

Opinions from atheists on the Cat are really quite pathetic and pretty much only popular in their own minds.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:32 PM

I am a resident of Lincolnshire UK....I am a Brit....I am a male.....I am, before anything else, a Bible believing Christian and am so proud of that!...not of myself because I am a nothing...but I am a nothing for someone.....I am a proud citizen of Gods Kingdom and am not afraid to say so in spite of some opinions on the "cat".
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:25 PM

Thank you, brucie. and I respect you as a friend, also.

Others here are a big waste of time.

But back to the question:

I am a proud Jewish American. proud to live in a great country and be part of a religious culture so rich with tradition and common snese. Proud to be living the American dream and not taking it for granted for a second.

As for putting proud to be part of the human race as another poster here said first, not me. The human race has produced such things as cannibals, serial murderers, and suicide bombers who blow themselves up for a brainwashed heavenly reward.


I take great pride in being a Jewish American who has worked hard for what he has earned.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:24 PM

To me it means that I am proud to be a member of a group becasue I believe in the group's overall history, goals, morals, and actions. I am a proud Canadian because of our history, our goals, our morals, and our actions... oops - not lately. However, I am still proud because I know we'll sort out the problems and get back on track with "doing the right thing(s)". We are Canadian. It's our nature.

Having said that, I also believe that most individuals in this world think the same way. The only thing that makes Canadians (and Swedes, and Yanks, and etc) kind of, sort of , maybe a bit, unique is that, somehow, we have been able to collectively make some things work for the benefit of all in the group. As for Canucks, perhaps it's because we all have to shovel snow.

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:23 PM

The word "proud", to me, implies that to some degree I own or am responsible for what's to be proud of. While I am happy (for the most part) to be associated with the entity, The United States, I can't claim authorship or responsibility for the good parts, and I'd like to disassociate myself from what I consider the bad parts. At least, I'm forward to say that I don't think I've added to the bad parts.

Another possible reading of "proud to be a citizen" would be that I arrived at that state by effort, striving, and merit. I didn't. I got it as a free gift. So I can't very well be "proud" of it in that way.

I like Azizi's distinction, and I will tell the world I admire much of the historical achievements of the nation I think of as "American". I try not to think too much about the parts that I don't admire.

If this sounds equivocal or lukewarm, so be it. If the last sentence of the previous paragraph sounds like a lazy citizen, I suppose that may be true too.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:42 PM

I recognize my identity as an "Unitedstater", but I don't take pride in being a citizen of this nation.

I admire some things about this country and dislike others.

Among other reasons for its being, I view the United States as an experiment in multi-racial, multi-ethnic relationships. Sometimes we get it right but often we fail the tests.

I would prefer to say that I have admiration for historical and contemporary individuals & groups in the United States who have fought and fight for individual and group rights. The United States has often but not always led these movements. For that reason I admire this nation. {'admire' being a word that feels better for me than 'being proud of'}.


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:22 PM

It means you believe that your group X has a set of agreements that you endorse. Since any country as large as ours or yours has a thousand major sets of agreements in play at any one time, this is not hard. I am aproud American, as well, but I am temporarily embarassed by the current rule of inanity, stupidity, thuggishness and manipulation which has been brought to the country by Bush's gangstahs.

My pride is in more enduring things like Jefferson, the Constitution, may it rest in peace, the Declaration of Independence, and the Bill of what's-its-name we used to have.


A

Subject: RE: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:21 PM

My country, right or wrong.
When it's right, to keep it right,
When it's wrong, to make it right.

However my membership in the Human Race has much more impact on the way I think about myself than the fact that I was born in any particular country.

Subject: BS: To be a proud citizen . . . .
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:09 PM

Robomatic--on another thread--said that he is a proud American. I feel that I am a proud Canadian. Despite my high regard for Robomatic, I know that we differ greatly politically. Much in the way, my friendship with Martin continues despite our divergent views on so many issues.

I suppose my question is this: What does it mean to you when you declare that you are a proud _______________?