Instrument Frustration

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 03:39 AM

Thanks for the link s&r & thanks for your positive input as well Mr Happy.

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: s&r
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 03:32 AM

PF

There's a well written article here by a horse trainer that summarises the operation of physical learning rather well (in horses, but the procedure is the same. About neurons and such


Stu

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Kaleea
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:23 PM

Noone knows this, but I have a 3/4 size fiddle. A decent German made student variety. It fits my short stubby fingers as I am slightly under 5 feet. About 4'11 3/4" but who's counting. I'm absolutely not a violinist or a fiddler. I just fiddle with it behind closed doors. But it hurts to play! Carpal tunnel & arthritis & such. I might be able to enjoy fiddlin' if it didn't hurt so. Of course, then I could actually pull it out & fiddle & maybe be able to play a tune in tune now & then.

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: LilyFestre
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 02:52 PM

My violin is still in it's case. I gave it a glance as I walked near it to put some music away. HMPH. I thought about playing it but kept moving.

I'd love to play with some other people but there aren't too many around here. There are those who are pretty darn good and need no music and stick their noses up at people who need music (that would be me). Others don't have the time or aren't interested or whatever so I spend 99.9% of my time playing alone. That's ok and has worked just fine for me. When I play alone, I am very relaxed and if you were a fly on the wall, you'd know that there are times I try the breakneck speed stuff and find myself in a fit of giggles because of the absurdity of it all.

I'm spending my playing time knitting. I'm still on break.

Michelle

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 01:34 PM

I was never much of a flat-picker on guitar until I started playing in open tunings. Yes, it breaks all the conventions to play "Ragtime Annie" or "Cuckoo's Nest" in open C tuning capoed up two frets, but it works for me, other pickers tell me it sounds cool, and I've never been much on convention anyway.

Many self-taught rustic fiddlers play in "cross-tuned" tunings like ADAD (for D tunes) or AEAE (for A tunes). It might be worth playing around with.

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 01:06 PM

had probs years ago trying to learn guitar- gave up guitar & learned mouth organ.

Went back to guitar after & found the gob-iron playing had helped my tune holding ability.

Similarly, tried to learn tin whistle- hopeless!

Learned keyboards & melodeon in between- started whistle again last year- coming on in leaps & bounds!

Also taking your instruments out & playing with other musicians helps a lot- especially for boosting confidence!

you know what they say- a change is as good as a rest- worked for me- could for you too!

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:44 PM

s&r, I have been clinically Dyspraxic since birth.
One of the worst things about this for me personally is the frustration I have always felt about lacking the necessary motor skills necessary to become a good musician.
In recent times I have been addressing this by trying to learn to play to my own satifaction.
I started with the Harmonica which I soon managed to my own satisfaction.
Then the Tin Whistle. So far so good.
Very recently I have started with the Ukulele & (so far)that's OK as well.
On Friday I bought a guitar.
This is the big one because my failure to play this instrument to a level of competence that would satisfy anybody was what led me to conclude , in my early teens, that I would never be a musician.
It's very early days but I am determined to stick with it.
I just wanted you to know that I found your posting on this thread INSPIRING.
So thank you for that.

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: GUEST,Midchuck - dropped my cookie again - f*** it
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:17 PM

Flatpicking as we know it in the US - playing trad fiddle tunes fast on a steel-string guitar with a flat pick - essentially comes from Doc Watson. He wasn't the first to do it, but he was the one who turned people on to it and got it to be a popular thing to do, even though guitar had never been a lead instrument in bluegrass because it just isn't loud enough without electronic reinforcement of one kind or another.

Anyway, I once went to a Doc performance where he explained how he got to playing fiddle tunes on the guitar. He was in a local rockabilly band, before anyone outside of his home town had ever heard of him, and they got lots of requests for some of the traditional fiddle tunes, but they had no fiddle player. So Doc decided to learn fiddle. And he couldn't do it! He couldn't get anything that sounded anything like music out of the thing. So he decided, in frustration, that he'd have to learn to play the fiddle tunes on guitar so his band could honor peoples' requests.

So he became the first of the great flatpickers, and some would say still the greatest, because the fiddle was too difficult.

That was his story, anyway.

Peter.

Subject: Song Choice ABC's, AKA Repertoire
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 11:57 AM

These are general remarks about my own experience, not specific advice for anyone.

As a singer and as a rhythm player--

C. There are songs I'm having trouble singing and/or playing well. These go into practice time.

B. There are songs I can usually do well (depending on voice factors). These I'll perform if the runthrough that day goes well.

A. And then there are the songs that ALWAYS go well, under any circumstances, that I PROBABLY have memorized and don't even rtealize that I do-- that I pull out of the hat when A or B above fail to result in the ability to do a piece I am momentarily madly in love with that I had hoped to do for the occasion at hand.

Sometimes it's just a matter of knowing which material is which-- A, B, or C? It's also a good way to spot the skills that need development-- I have a bunch of A songs that have a certain thing in common, for instance. If I could progress in that one area I bet I'd double my B material and add a piece or two to my A material. The frustration (because I LOVE those C pieces and feel I MUST do them) becomes the motivator to work on the missing skills.

One of our band members (Ed) had a solo planned for an occasion a few weeks ago, but it turned out he had to miss that night (wife's surgery). Someone else has been designated for this month's solos-- but Ed assures us that he always has that solo ready to go if the designee has to miss a night.

Because I am our band's usual songfinder, arranger, and lead singer, I have a LOT of things I can whizz up on short notice that I trust myself to do well (A & B pieces). That's my "repertoire." (For a long time I didn't realize I need and had one that was my own personal rep.) It comes with time....

We don't always know which songs are our "sure winners." I saw a situation recently where an experienced song-circler let another experienced song-circler know that something she had just sung was a sure-fire winner, and also mentioned another song she felt would be one for her. Feedback is good.

One more factor-- what we can do is often enhanced by playing with others.

And yet one more-- deciding to relax and have fun can often make the difference between a wooden skill that lacks life, and discovering a developing skill brought to life where there had seemed to be little or none.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 08:07 AM

Sigh!

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 07:38 AM

I've told myself that it is physically impossible to play the banjo using the "drop thumb" stroke, so now I don't feel like smashing it 'cause I can't do it. I've saved a good banjo from certain death with this admission.

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Ernest
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 06:58 AM

Happens to me always and again. There are days when I am in good form for learning something, on others I am not. This is something I have learned to accept. I try to play harmonica and tenor banjo mainly (there also is a mandolin, strumstick and whistles), sometimes picking up a different instrument helps to get over those blockings. I noticed that fiddlers are often one-instrument-people, but just try something different - I would suggest the harmonica, since it requires no intricate fingerwork like a stringed instrument does.
Best wishes
Ernest

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: s&r
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:22 AM

The nerves which control the muscles are the problem and the solution. Simply put the nerve is made up of individual neurons (nerve cells) which dont quite touch: when your brain sends a signal to the muscles it has to jump millions of tiny gaps - slow.

However, every time you use a nerve it starts to grow 'tentacles' at the end of the neuron (dendrites). This reduces the gap, and control becomes easier.

Growth continues following the initial stimulation for some time. The nerve pathway becomes more rapid even when you aren't using it.

Young people grow quicker, so learn new physical skills more quickly. Older people more slowly.

This explains why you find that following a 'layoff' you have developed the skills you were seeing: you're nerves have grown. The good news is, they never 'ungrow' so physical skills are learned for ever.

This is a crude explanation: there are more detailed ones available

Stu

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: LilyFestre
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 09:43 PM

I have a teacher and we have discussed the problem. It's not an intonation problem, it's an uncooperative hand issue. Try as I might, the fingers aren't following directions. Mandolins aren't the answer for me...going from NO frets to frets is a nightmare!

A break is definately in order and in process. Glad to hear that I'm not alone with these frustrating moments. My violin remains in it's case....haven't turned it into kindling just yet........

Thanks for the optimism!

Michelle

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 08:31 PM

And of course the real trick to 'practising' is to not practice the bits you can, but the bits you can't! That is, don't just play the whole piece thru endless times - first play only the bits that are the hassle, then integrate them slowly back into the easier bits.

E.g., on the whistle the octave jumps are murder at first: working on them for a while will actually improve your overall breath control technique on the instrument as a whole.

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Grab
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 03:04 PM

Have you tried going to a teacher? Maybe it's not your brain, just your technique...

But violin does require the ability to hear relative pitch correctly. If you can't do that, mandolin is a good call. A friend of ours is a reasonably competent mandolin player, but as a fiddler it's physically painful to stay in the same room as him!

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Lester
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 02:28 PM

I find now and again not practicing for a week or so breaks the blocks I get stuck with. When I return it just seems easier and better. YMMV

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Tootler
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 01:03 PM

BTW I mean melodeon in the English sense of a two row G/D button accordion

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Tootler
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 01:02 PM

I'm learning melodeon. A few weeks ago I had reached a point where I was ready to give up as I felt I was making no progress. Then, one week our regular tutor was away and we had a different one that week and he did something which unlocked the problem I was having (co-ordinating left and right hand doing different things) and once again I was making progress. It was not that the regular tutor was poor - far from it he is excellent and very supportive - it was just that a different approach helped overcome the immediate problem. We all go through these plateaus when learning something new and different things can help us start to progress again. Coming at a problem from a different angle usually helps. I also agree with those who say put it down for a while and come back to it (but don't leave it too long). I have often found this helps when I am learning a difficult piece.

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: foggers
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 12:47 PM

Hi, my ole man and I can both sympathise there! I am trying to teach myself the basics of 5 string banjo after years of playing guitar, and he has taken up keyboards just this year having never played anything before.
His teacher has told him to practice small amounts often and says this works best because the brain can't process more than about 7 or 8 new bits of information at a time. So it makes sense to learn new material in small chunks. The theory goes that if you learn it in 8 bit chunks (i.e. about a couple of bars at a time) eventually your brain proceses each chunk as an integrated whole. Then you can build these building blocks into a full tune.

I hope that you reach you breakthrough, cos music should be more about pleasure than pain!

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 12:25 PM

Mandolin.

~S~

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: treewind
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 12:13 PM

All good advice above. Times when your fingers refuse to do some simple task of co-ordination should be welcomed as real learning opportunities. Practice slowly. If it doesn't work, halve the speed. Go on halving the speed, however ridiculous it may seem, until you can do it.

Another useful idea is to break something difficult into smaller pieces (NO, not the violin!!!). Sometimes the transition between just one pair of consecutive notes is the real problem. If you can identify them then you can isolate the problem and deal with it intensiveley. It may not be fun for a day or two but the end result will be that all your playing will get better.

Oh yes, and it does come and go, and after a session of intensive practice it may not seem better... but come back two days later and you may be surprised.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Allan C.
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 12:06 PM

I must agree with Marynf. Historically, I've not been what one could call a totally dedicated guitarist. In fact, for a number of years I barely played at all except for my annual appearance at the Getaways. Nonetheless, even with so little stimulation, certain aspects of playing somehow sifted into my brain. Even now that I am playing far more often than ever before in my life, I find that my mind seems to continue working on various chording or fingering problems during the spells in which I am not playing.

I'm sure I am not alone in having had the experience of trying unsuccessfully to work out the chords for a new tune, giving up in frustration, and then discovering some weeks later that I suddenly had it all worked out despite having made no further attempts.

In short, perhaps it would be best to give yourself a break. Allow your mind to work a while on the problems you've had. Then, when you are once again at peace with yourself, give it another go and see if maybe things go a little better. Worth a try, no?

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 11:51 AM

A huge part of practice is developing muscles in the right places, and the coordination to use them, and you just have to drill your fingers over and over. You do oftn get these phases where it seems you're making no progress, and then suddenly you pick the instrument up one day and you can do it.

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: pdq
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 11:50 AM

You might want to borrow a mandolin and try it for awhile.

If intonation on the violin is causing some of the frustration, frets will really help.

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Maryrrf
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 10:51 AM

After years of playing pretty basic guitar - chords with fingerpicking, I decided I wanted to be able to pick out the melody on the strings so that I could incorporate an instrumental break into my songs. I found that I would reach a point where I was terribly frustrated and just couldn't make it past a certain point - and I would leave it for a week or so and maybe work on another instrument (I play around with the Appalachian dulcimer and the banjo). To my amazement, I found that after a break I would often be able to play what I hadn't been able to before. Like it somehow sinks in when you're not thinking about it. Try just taking a break when you get to that point, then coming back when you're refreshed. It's been working for me and I've been improving slowly but steadily.

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 10:48 AM

Michelle - An elderly lady gets off the train at Grand Central Staion and asks the porter "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?" - Needless to say , the answer is "Practice ,lady , Practice !"

Seriously , I think we have all been there , but hopefully you will keep at it and suddenly wonder just WHY you thought you had a problem .

Unless of course you have developed 'bad habits' , in which case a session with a good teacher may be of help !

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 10:47 AM

i reached a point when i was about 16 when i realised and accepted that i could not remember and play accurate melody lines on guitar..
whereas my best mate could replicate anything Hank Marvin and Duane Eddy ever recorded..

but i did excell at rythm chord and riff playing..
and could co-ordinate a solid and reliable rythm section with drummers and bass players in bands

so for the last 30 years i've consolidated those skills
for the supportive benefit of the singers and lead solo instument virtuosos..

Subject: RE: Instrument Frustration
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 10:47 AM

Comes and goes, Michelle.....peaks and plateaus.....hang in there...

Subject: Instrument Frustration
From: LilyFestre
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 10:11 AM

I play the violin. I'm not a professional by any stretch of the imagination, I just enjoy playing. I'd like to improve upon my playing abilities by learning new skills but I am so frustrated with my fingers inability to cooperate with the task at hand that I'm about ready to use my violin for firewood and call it quits. It's not enjoyable and if it causes this much upset, maybe it just isn't even worth it. Have any of you reached this point with whatever instruments you play? Do you still play? How did you work through it? )(&*&%^$^%#$#(&*^(*&%^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Michelle