BS: Pinch,punch

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 04:38 AM

Vive les enfants
Vive les chansons
Vive les jeux de jeunnesse

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: autolycus
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:41 PM

Vive les enfants


   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:47 AM

Azizi, your post makes fascinating reading. Iona Opie's optimism for the future & survival of children's games is reassuring....seemingly they will change, reflecting current circumstances, reacting to the 'new technologies' rather than being destroyed by them.
      I need look no further than two of my own Grandchildren for evidence of this. Only last weekend, I watched & listened to the girls (aged 7 & 10) sing a wonderful 'nonsense' poem, accompanied by complex hand movements which interlinked one with the other. It turns out, the game was their creation, not learned or copied. It seems reasonable to assume then, that there must be many other children throughout the world creating these games too....may it continue forever,
                                                   Nigel P.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 06:01 AM

On looking through some of my books, I came across 'Remember When' by Robert Opie, Iona & Peter's son. He has spent more than thirty years collecting packaging, advertising & social history. In 1984, he opened the Museum of Advertising & Packaging in Gloucester (UK) & in 1999, the   Museum of Memories at Wigan (UK).
      I knew nothing of the Opie's work until this thread got started. What began as 'Pinch,punch' has developed into something much broader & much more interesting. Your thoughtful & insightful contributions are really appreciated,
                  Nigel P.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:37 PM

Folks interested in this game may also be interested in reading David Rowan: The Times Magazine: Have children really forgotten how to play? {Saturday, May 21, 2005}

That article includes an interview with Iona Opie. Here's an excerpt:

"...Now 81, Iona Opie still has a thick folder labelled "Games Disappearing", chronicling hand-wringing warnings of the tradition's imminent demise that go back as far as 1664. As today, it is technology that has generally shouldered the blame - from the arrival of railways and the gramophone to threats from the wireless and the cinema. "Of course, technology won't kill that insuppressible drive to play," a delightfully opinionated Opie says impatiently in the book-lined dining-room of her rambling Victorian house in Liss, Hampshire. "The latest arguments about television are just another bogie, yet more media scaremongering. The truth is, it's instinctive to exert your own personality."

...You'll find some things have nearly disappeared," she says... "The group singing games, for instance, which used to be sung for courtship by young adults all over Europe. The old games that people are mourning were needed at the time. But this is a living lore that's changing all the time. So if some of the words of the old singing games have lost their function, they'll be changed to produce much more active, combative games."

She reflects that children will always need such ritualised means of confronting social anxieties, affirming their growing independence, or simply channelling their aggression or sexual curiosity. "The fun is making your own mark on a song, by putting in slightly different words," she continues, suddenly animated. "I just adore hearing the words of the old games being modified, corrupted and turned into a sort of surrealist poetry..."

-snip-

Click http://www.davidrowan.com/2005/05/times-magazine-have-children-really.html for examples of and more commentary on British children's playground rhymes".

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: s&r
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 03:56 PM

I was pleased to find that Iona Opie is still alive.
Wikipedia gives this entry about the collection:

'Iona Opie is a world authority on children's rhymes, street & playground games and the Mother Goose tradition. Together with her husband she conducted primary fieldwork, as well as library research, interviewing thousands of children. The couple were also noted anthologists.

The Opie's collection is the richest library of children's books and ephemera and covers the 16th to 20th century. It was begun in 1944, amounting in the end to 20,000 pieces. It was donated to the Bodleian Library in 1988, after a two-year public appeal raised the £500,000 cost. The Opie's book collection is increasingly being transferred to microfiche. The Opies' large collection of historic toys and games is still owned by Iona Opie.'

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: autolycus
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 03:06 PM

I remember 'pinch and a punch....', Hendon and Finchley,N.W.London in the 50s.

According to Brewer, it's an old, childrens' thing, so not too helpful.

Can't imagine,frogprince why anyone'd find silly things being said/done in the UK, a notorious place for silliness (Lewis Carroll, Beachcomber, Spike Milligan and the Goons, Michael Bentine, most 'reality' shows, Samuel Foote) and eccentrics.

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: s&r
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 02:03 PM

I've always loved the Opie's books. The truce terms map fascinates me (crosses, barley, kings etc).

If I remember correctly they left a huge library of children's books collected over their lifetime toth nation, but I'm not sure where it's housed.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: MBSLynne
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 12:59 PM

Yes, I second that. Totally fascinating books (There are several others along the same lines)

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 09:27 AM

I bought the Opie book: 'The Lore & Language of Schoolchildren' after reading s&r's post. Absolutely fascinating. It doesn't say much more about 'pinch, punch', but I found the book 'unputdownable' nevertheless! Highly recommended reading.
       Thank you, s&r,
                     Nigel P.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Splott Man
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 07:53 AM

I don't recall "White Rabbits" in Surrey in the 50s.
"A punch and a kick, for being so quick" was said if someone "pinch, punched" you after the 12 noon deadline.

Splott Man

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: s&r
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 04:41 AM

'Pinch and a punch' according to Opie (Iona and Peter Opie, Lore and Language of Schoolchildren) this was said in every day school in Britain. Their research dates from the 1950s.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:36 AM

I am sure that the VW / punch thing once occurred in an episode of the Simpsons.

Elfcall

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:26 PM

The first and second times I tried to get that post to submit, I spelled "igly" right...

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:24 PM

Maybe it's because that, while all 2CVs are butt-igly, only green ones are screaming ugly.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: MBSLynne
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:22 AM

I've never heard of the VW beetle thing either but I knew someone who would yell "Deux cheveau vert!" if he saw a green Citroen 2CV. I think that came from France. Goodness knows why it had to be a GREEN one though

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 05:06 AM

This has been SO interesting to read. Frogprince, this IS what (some!) sane adults & children say on the first day of each month...it's not an April 1st. gag! The 'poisson d'Avril' & 'beetle punching' are both new to me.
       Anymore contributions from around the world?
       Happy Days,
                  Nigel P.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: open mike
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 12:40 AM

are you sure it wasn't "slug bug"?
(instead of punch buggie)
and the new beetles seem quite
prevalent...i always encourgaed
my kids to "hug bug" instead,
because the puncing could elevate
into a painful thing...

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: *Laura*
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:00 PM

I haven't heard of the WV Beetle thing - but we (i mean err... the kids here... lol) are 'allowed' a punch when we see a yellow car.
Guess that wouldn't work if you live somewhere like New York!!

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:46 PM

Michigan here...

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:40 PM

Or maybe I'm wrong. If you don't mind my asking, Frogprince are you in Canada? And Bert, where are you from?

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:38 PM

No Canadian 'Catters have reported in yet.

I'm curious if the pinch punch or VW punching customs are also done there.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:30 PM

I know what this is: all the U.K. and Oz mudcatters have conspired to try to "April Fool" the rest of us into believing that sane adults actually do something that silly over there.
I never happened to hear of the Volkswagon Beetle thing for kids until a few months ago. The version I heard is, spot a Beetle, say "slug bug", punch the other kid on the shoulder, and try to continue with "no slug back" before he can respond. It's been adapted to "Cruiser Bruiser" for sighting P.T. Cruisers.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:15 PM

"Pinch & a punch for the first of the month." prevalent in Northumberland in the seventies.
Also punching someone on seeing a VW Beetle,only here the little darlings would shout "Herbie on ya!".

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: GUEST,Wyrd Sister
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:10 PM

Always (tried to) say "rabbits" on the first of the month. Yorkshire, from the 1950s.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 02:20 PM

We say it here in South Wales.So it must be all over the British Isles.
Scooby

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: MBSLynne
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 02:14 PM

Not just a southern thing. My Mum grew up in the Midlands and did both pinch and punch and white rabbits.

I've just asked my kids and it is general around here (Leicestershire) and my husband knows it and he is a Midlander too.

I've never managed to remember white rabbits in time either

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Bert
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 01:57 PM

There's also 'Punch in the eye for being so sly' as a further response.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:59 PM

Becca-now that I remember. When my kids were growing up in the 1970s-1980s. The first child to see a Volkswagon Beetle would say "Punch buggie!" and punch another one.

I wasn't consistent about how I handled it. Sometimes, I tolerated it. Sometimes I did it with them myself. And sometimes-when the punching got out of control-I'd tell them to stop.

There's not too many VW Beetles left anymore. So I guess eventually this custom will fade away. But other kid's pinching exchange will replace it, guaranteed.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From:
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:33 PM

It's a new one on me...but we whack each other whenever we spot a VW Bug...

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Cathie
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 11:18 AM

in France, children stick fishes on the backs of others unbeknown to them as 'poissons d'avril' jokes, as far as i can remember

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:53 AM

This is a new one on me. It seems from what I'm reading that kids in [certain?] parts of England did/do this pinch punch white rabbit thingy and kids in Australia did/do it too.

I'm wondering if its familiar to anyone who grew up in the United States or Canada or other places.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: *Laura*
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:45 AM

We've alwasy said that too (Somerset UK) - 'pinch, punch, 1st of the month & no returns white rabit white rabbit white rabbit'
and if they don't say the white rabbits then it's 'punch and a kick for being so quick'...

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: gnomad
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:19 AM

Legging-down (or up) is a rather boisterous business, some would say vicious. It was normal in Hull when I was a kid. Of course most 'catters know how normal Hull9 is!

On April 1st, after the 12.00 noon deadline for trickery had passed people went around deliberately tripping each other up; no provocation required, just for the hell of it. It was largely a kids' thing (go on, we wouldn't have known it) and even 40 years ago was pretty much frowned on by teachers and such-like. I expect they ban it entirely these days.

Its one (very minor) merit was that the fear of potential revenge in the form of a legging-down did sometimes cause April Fool tricksters to moderate some of their more extreme plans.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: JennyO
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 09:44 AM

..the pinch and punch, that is - not the ferret legging.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 09:40 AM

..ditto..

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: JennyO
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 09:36 AM

It's an Aussie thing too. I remember doing it, my kids did it, and the kids in school now do it. And it's for every month.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Jeanie
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:59 AM

I've never heard of "legging down" (or up) either, Mo. This must be something Northern - something to do with the bizarre things they do up North involving ferrets down the trousers ??? ;) [that sign is meant to be a wink - please don't attack me, Northern People].

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:19 AM

Rabbits was supposed to be the first thing you said in any month, for luck. I never remembered soon enough. This was N.London.
What (and where) is legging up? Other than giving someone a leg up to help them climb onto something.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: gnomad
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 07:37 AM

Most of the amswers so far seem to be suggesting this is a southern counties practice, does that seem about right?

I've heard of the "Rabbits" thing, tnough it hasn't been in common use anywhere I have lived (Midlands, N.Lincs & all 3 Yorkshire Ridings). I first came across it in the novels of Dornford Yates.

April 1st has its own rituals, tricks until noon seems widespread, but how far does "legging-down" (also known as legging-up, but its the same thing) reach?

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:58 AM

Hello Jeanie. I'd completely forgotten 'white rabbits' & the 'punch & a kick' response....what fun!! I wonder if it is just an 'Essex thing'?
      Gnomad, it is a playground saying, as I remember from my childhood, but my wife & I still say it on the first day of every month, not just April!
                     Happy Days,
                               Nigel P.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: MBSLynne
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:52 AM

We did it in all the places i've lived in England and also in Australia. I know my Mum did it as a kid in the 30s. No idea of the origins though. It may generally be a kids thing, but we still do it....then perhaps we can't be said to have grown up?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:48 AM

I've known this since I was a child in North London - many years ago. It applied to any month. Couldn't say where it came from though.

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Jeanie
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:37 AM

Aha ! But you didn't say "White Rabbits", Nigel, so..... here are the returns:

<<< A Punch and a Kick for Being so Quick >>> !!!!

[Gnomad: it's certainly an Essex thing, if nowhere else]

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Pinch,punch
From: gnomad
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:09 AM

Whereabouts in the UK, Nigel?

This is a new one on me, so sorry I can't help with the origin, but I am interested to know more. It sounds like a playground thing, or do grownups do it too? Oh, and is it any new month, or just April.

Have I just answered my own questions?

Subject: BS: Pinch,punch
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:58 AM

In the UK, on the first day of a new month (before noon), people say to each other (with appropiate actions!): "Pinch, punch, first day of the month & no returns". Does anyone have any thoughts as to the origin of this saying & is it, or something similar, found anywhere else in the world?
                Nigel P.