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BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: JohnInKansas Date: 18 May 06 - 08:14 PM The US has a guest worker program, and there are fairly large numbers of guest workers here. Some feel that the statutory limit on the number of guests allowed are overly restrictive; but there are numerous legal "workarounds" that make the numerical limit almost meaningless. Academic workers, as a practical matter, are not subject to any quotas, and vastly outnumber the productive (attempt at humor?) ones. And BWL falls back into the "all Mexicans are the same" trap on which I commented earlier. Mexican laborers are perhaps "over represented" in the construction trades, and most particularly in the home construction and repair lines; but the majority are legal workers, or at least show credible evidence of legal status, if the local trade is any indication. This, incidentally, is not a "job that citizens won't do," that is picked up by default by illegals. I've had numerous friends and relatives who were "over represented" in this line of work. The pay is pretty good, in general, although the work is sometimes irregular and sometimes seasonal. That ethnic Mexicans are over represented in the field is largely because they're somewhat overly common in many unskilled and semi-skilled trades (often because of language difficulties, which sometimes persist into second and later generations). Construction carpentry and other home repair jobs do require a bit of skill, but it's fairly easy to pick up "on the job" and hence the "trades" are overpopulated with (especially younger) workers who haven't had formal training in a line of work. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 May 06 - 07:30 PM Canada has a guest worker program. A building boom is on here in Alberta, and construction would grind to a stop without them. They also will be necessary to the tar sands expansion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 18 May 06 - 06:07 PM It's all grandstanding. Just let another major hurricane rip the roofs from a few thousand homes and any Mexican laborer with a hammer will be allowed into the US. The majority of roof repairs done after the last two hurricane seasons have been done by Mexican workers. If it weren't for them, thousands of people in the south would still be waiting for repairs. The reality is that many Americans welcome the help of non-Americans in time of need, but when that need is satisfied good old American arrogance assumes its usual position in the forefront of the communal American personality. "Here's your money. Gracias for your help. Now get on home and don't let the gate at the border hit you in the ass." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Sorcha Date: 18 May 06 - 05:14 PM Prob. right, Q. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 May 06 - 04:48 PM Only educated, wealthy applicants without family ties need apply. Somehow I have the feeling that, if not home-grown, a terrorist would have a valid passport, speak idiomatic American, and have sufficient cash to support his efforts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Sorcha Date: 18 May 06 - 03:14 PM Perhaps we should just melt down the Statue of Liberty for scrap? And, definitely change the poem on it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: JohnInKansas Date: 18 May 06 - 09:55 AM The "free trade in labor" is something of a touchy issue in some areas. Under the NAFTA free trade agreement, Mexican drivers using Mexican equipment now, according to trucking industry statistics, account for about 15% of the freight moved in the West Coast Belt market - California, Oregon, Washington State. This is reportedly the largest US trucking market (most tonnage, and most dollar value) reported as a separately identified region with separate statistics. In principle, they compete openly with US drivers and freight agencies. A US driver literally cannot afford the maintenance on a truck older than about 5 years, and a 10 year old truck is virtually worthless in the US. Even with a brand-new $160,000 truck, maintenenance to comply with safety regulations will run around $1,000 per month at a minimum. (On top of the mortgage - $3400/month typically.) If a US driver gets ticketed for a safety infraction, he may lose a load since he can't move until it's fixed; and off-site maintenance comes at about $250/hour, plus mileage, with at least 1 +20% kick in part costs due to "remote delivery." A Mexican National, with a truck registered in Mexico, is virtually exempt from inspection by the ICC, and to a large extent by local and regional traffic cops. He only has to comply with Mexican equipment rules, and for practical purposes there aren't any. He can buy, in Mexico, a $40,000 truck, do virtually no maintenance, rarely has to stop at US inspection stations. I don't have accurate figures, but people in the business estimate that the real cost of operation is at least 15% to 30% less for the Mexican hauler, because of the ability to operate junk equipment alone. Add on that a Mexican registration cannot be challenged by US inspection and enforcement agencies. US drivers of my acquaintance estimate that as many as 80% of the trailers that Mexican truckers are dragging are stolen in the US, registered as Mexican (for a few dollars to a friendly official) and operated openly here. While the 80% figure seems high, it is not outrageously so, given past documented investigations of the traffic in vehicles stolen in the US and "legally registered" to Mexican operators. Specific drivers have been identified to me who have seen, inspected, and identified their own trailers, now carrying Mexican registration in addition to their own registration and permit labels still on them who have been told by law enforcement that any attempt to "recover" their property will result in their arrest, and that as long as the operator has "valid Mexican registration papers" there's nothing law enforcement here can do. So is the labour trade free and open? Note that except for traffic figures that are published by industry trade journals that I've seen, this is pretty much hearsay; but the sources have some credibility with me, even if I reserve my belief in the exact numbers. Now it probably is unfair that Canadian drivers don't have the same advantage, but they're subject to Canadian rules - which may be almost as strict as the US ones. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: autolycus Date: 18 May 06 - 06:37 AM Great question Paul (because I was going to ask something similar). I suspect the answers are going to have something to do with the law (as if the law was politically- and economically-neutral.) Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Paul Burke Date: 18 May 06 - 06:14 AM Just a wee question about free- market economics: why is the market to be free for goods and services but not for labour? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: JohnInKansas Date: 18 May 06 - 04:40 AM A possible explanation for why there is currently more interest in controlling the influx of illegal workers is that some people really are concerned that persons with malicious intent could easily hide themselves among those who enter by ways other than legal tourist or immigrant channels. As a consequence of that concern it is my understanding that it will require a passport to enter the US from either Mexico or Canada in the near future. That includes US citizens travelling to either country. They will have free passage out of the US (assuming no new rules by Canada or Mexico) but will be required to show a passport to re-enter the US. (Some congestion at ports of entry are anticipated?) The likely effectiveness of this new law can be debated, but it obviously will have little effect on any potential "terrorists" if all they have to do is walk across the Mexican border amid another 200,000 covert arrivals. (Although at the favored crossings, it's often a 100 mile walk in brutal desert conditions.) John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 May 06 - 03:00 AM Britain has a moat 20 miles wide, and still has a massive illegal immigration situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: GUEST Date: 18 May 06 - 12:21 AM If every full-tall 55 foot telephone pole....covered twelve-inches....I imagine there are 3, million loyal, border-defending Northerners that would be willing to sponsor:
A HOLE and a POLE
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Bert Date: 18 May 06 - 12:09 AM ...Unless the real reason they're leaving their own homes is political corruption, graft, extortion, and roving bandits.... Jeez John, where does that leave US to emigrate to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: JohnInKansas Date: 17 May 06 - 11:52 PM pdq - That's the article. It's a bit neater than the layout in my local rag, and there was apparently some "local editing" as well. Since I didn't attempt to quote extensively, I'll admit I didn't look too hard. It seems now that Congress will be unable to act this session, which may be a good thing. Rational thought may yet prevail. I'm not sure it matters a lot when something comes out of Congress. Perhaps some will be cheered by local speculation that this issue may cause some rollover of power at the next election; but I'm not sure the public has the *discernment to select rational representatives. Recently reported "polls" showed Congress is about the only government/political agency in existence (in the US) with a "lower level of trust" than the Presidency, but the reports I've seen weren't rigorously credible - yet. * (Or will have the opportunity, given the "obvious candidates.") John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 May 06 - 11:24 PM Having been born in officially bilingual New Mexico, I never worried whether Latinos I met belonged to old families that were here when the U. S. stole the region from Mexico, or were descendants of immigrants from the period when no one worried about them coming, or were later 'legal' immigrants, or were Mexican citizens working here and contributing to the economy. The U. S. of A. has become, however, a magnet for too many poor according to some Americanos, and the tide must be rolled back. It is forgotton that the 19th c. and early 20th c. saw a flood of immigrants who only had to show that they had no pestilent disease and were neither black nor oriental. It seems now that Congress will be unable to act this session, which may be a good thing. Rational thought may yet prevail. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: pdq Date: 17 May 06 - 10:49 PM Is this it? Spencer S. Hsu article |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Peace Date: 17 May 06 - 10:46 PM A fence that keeps someone out can also be used to keep someone in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: JohnInKansas Date: 17 May 06 - 10:33 PM Amos says - I meet many Mexican immigrants and their descendants here in San Diego. The ones I meet are hard-working, straight and decent people, an asset to the community. This is a very common confusion of the issue at hand, and one that affects both Mexican immigrants and the rest of the population. There is no question that "Mexican immigrants and their descendants" have made a valuable, and valued, contributions to US society and to the US economy. There are, however, legal ways of immigrating, and illegal ways of entry. The contributions made by legal immigrants are frequently cited in opposition to any new regulation, as if their contributions in some way validate those who enter illegally. The magnitude of the "problem" can be perhaps realized from an article that appeared in the 1Washington Post recently (sorry, no link available) in which writer SPENCER S. HSU reported: The U.S. Border Patrol arrested nearly 1.2 million people last year — the vast majority of them Mexicans who were returned across the border — and estimates that 500,000 others evaded capture. These are just the "incoming," and these figures omit the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants already in the country. Mr. Hsu, in this article laments that while those identified as Mexican nationals can be, and generally are, sent back to Mexico, Mexico refuses to accept anyone who enters the US through or from Mexico who is not a Mexican citizen: according to Mr. Hsu, 160,000 "other than Mexican" immigrants arrested each year. Since our jails are already filled to overflowing with our own petty (and a few not-so-petty) criminals, the Immigration Service has no place to hold any newly arrested who require any significant processing. The cost, for those held, is in the vicinity of $35,000 per year per person. It makes little difference whether it's one person for a year, or 365 persons each for one night. Those picked up by INS for whom there is no space for detention typically are issued an "order to appear" for a hearing to determine whether, and to where, they may be deported. Understandably, INS agents refer to this as the "Order to Disappear." INS currently doesn't even attempt to process "illegals" that are picked up by other than their own agents, except in cases where death or injury appears. Newspaper reports, in the past two months in Kansas alone, have cited at least a dozen incidents in which groups of a half dozen to two dozen "obvious illegals" have been intercepted, usually because of accidents, major traffic violations, or illness of some or all of the illegals. The reported total of persons involved has been more than 140. IN NO CASE were any uninjured persons arrested or detained, largely because there's no space to do so. Of course, unless they are found attempting to obtain employment or otherwise "establishing illegal permanent residence" these "travellers" can always claim they just came to visit. One might question the Mexican tradition of packing 14 people into an unventilated 4x8 UHaul trailer with no windows (in 95F+ [35C] weather) to "see the country," but... Believe it or not, some people also are concerned that a few hundred people each year are found dead attempting illegal entry. Mininum fees to the "transporters" who promise to get them in are reported at about $1,000, with up to $15,000 claimed by some, and it frequently turns out to be a really bad trip. The US can and should accept new people, but there is a front door, and it needs to be used. Quite possibly, it needs to be opened a bit wider for those who'd like to come here; but that's really not the present issue. 1 The article by Mr. Hsu appeared in my local paper 15 May 2006. I haven't been able to find it online (and Mr Hsu isn't really a very good writer). Cited for convenience, as his numbers agree generally with other sources. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Barry Finn Date: 17 May 06 - 09:17 PM Yes Kat, I agree. This has been going on from a long time now & why is it only now becoming a problem. The Iraq war is to hot of an issue with elections around the corner. Iraq? What's up with that? Huge smoke screen, I don't even see that country anymore. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: katlaughing Date: 17 May 06 - 08:30 PM JohninKS, that's an excellent idea!!! Yours, too, Spaw! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Amos Date: 17 May 06 - 08:27 PM I meet many Mexican immigrants and their descendants here in San Diego. The ones I meet are hard-working, straight and decent people, an asset to the community. They are funny and smart, too. This is such bullshit, it we be enough to make me into an anti-Republican if that were possible... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: catspaw49 Date: 17 May 06 - 08:12 PM Better yet Wes, why not have the fencing material made in Mexico? I mean the labor is a lot cheaper and all............Then maybe the assholes hire a Mexican company to put it up just to help out the Mexican economy. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 17 May 06 - 07:52 PM Hey - Let's name the wall !!! Georges folly is too obvious. The Enchilada Curtain ?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 17 May 06 - 07:50 PM One of the guys at the office suggested that since there are three layers of walls to be built that the first one be made of straw, the second one made of sticks and the third one made from bricks..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: wysiwyg Date: 17 May 06 - 07:44 PM Unless you want to make the hiring companies actually PUT the illegals into the Social Security system-- to bail THAT out. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: JohnInKansas Date: 17 May 06 - 07:05 PM Any US company (or foreign company operating in the US) who knowingly employes persons not legally entitled to be employed in the US should be required to establish, at their own entire expense, a facility in the country of origin of the alien persons they hired, capable of providing employement for those aliens and an equal number of citizens who have not resorted to illegal methods of finding employment. If fairly short order, it should be possible to provide sufficient economic development in any country that can't employ its own people in productive manner to greatly lessen the incentive for people to go elsewhere. (Unless the real reason they're leaving their own homes is political corruption, graft, extortion, and roving bandits. (?)) Local companies in my area have assured us that they do not knowingly hire illegals. A recent survey has affirmed that all those employed here have valid Social Security Numbers. In fact, one company found they had 42 employees with the SAME SSN; but at least they checked. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 May 06 - 06:56 PM Why don't they build fences round all the individual states in the USA? I'm sure there are all kinds of problems associated with people moving around between them. And think of the government contracts involved... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: katlaughing Date: 17 May 06 - 06:37 PM Eggzackly, Wesley, that's what I want to know!! It's embarrassing. Those terrible Mexicans who are ruining our country, NOT! It's another way to try to get our minds off THE war/fiasco in Iraq; the idjit! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: SINSULL Date: 17 May 06 - 06:25 PM When are they going to get serious about monitoring and punishing employers who use illegal alien labor? That would impact numbers coming across the border. Imagine if Walmart had to pay even $10,000 for every hour of illegal labor used...we could make a dent in the National Debt and solve the illegal immigration problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: artbrooks Date: 17 May 06 - 06:20 PM Don't think so. The House has voted on a 700 mile fence, and one of the items in the bill the Senate is working on is 370 miles of fence. What they will actually end up with is anybody's guess. There are already some short stretches near major crossings like San Diego/Tijuana and El Paso/Juarez. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Barry Finn Date: 17 May 06 - 06:16 PM Couldn't we just ask the Chineese to build us a great wall, on credit. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: wysiwyg Date: 17 May 06 - 04:52 PM "Oh YES! And it worked SO well with the Berlin Wall! :~) It hardly escalated at ALL! Well, some people DIED and all.... but..... it was a GREAT wall!" "Shut up George!" [pouting] "Tell me again-- what's a Lame Duck s'posed to do....?" ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 May 06 - 04:35 PM Geez. They are so stupidly xenophobic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: Wesley S Date: 17 May 06 - 04:35 PM When will the Canadian fence be built ? |
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Subject: BS: Good fences make good Mexican neighbors From: dick greenhaus Date: 17 May 06 - 04:32 PM Congess, I hear, has approved the construction of 1 370 mile, triple thickness fence on the US/Mexican border. I wonder if Halliburton builds fences. |
