BS: Showing respect to another country

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 05:35 PM

Nothing wrong with chip butties. (Actually they'd be as likely to say "curry and chips".)

The idea of Morris hooliganism is interesting. Maybe that is what it would take for people to recognise it as authentically English. And if we delved back back into history I think it highly likely that it started out that way. A lot of folk traditions are pretty rough if you strip away the veneer of respectability.   It's rather similar to the way so mnay of the songs were cleaned up for public consumption by the collectors and arrangers.

For example a lot of masked and painted folkl traditions were largely about people demanding money with menaces, wearing the contemporary equivalent of balaclavas and hoodies. I suspect in a few generations there'll be folkies reviving the fine old English tradition of "steaming."

My point being, there's nothing new under the sun, and these things come and they go.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:57 PM

What realy bugs me is that it now seems to be acceptable to behave in an anti-social way as long as it is in the name of football. It is perfectly OK for young men to take up the whole street and shout loudly as long as they are shouting 'England'. It is fine for people to take over the whole pub and piss all over the floor of the gents when the urinals are all in use as long as they are football fans 'having a bit of a laugh'. It's fine for young women to flash their tits at passers-by as long as they are flashing under the flag of St George.

Don't make me laugh. Why should these idiots show any respect for other countries. They show no respect for their own. Ask any of them when St Georges day is. Ask them what symbols represent England. Ask them what people best represent England. What will they answer? I suspect, in order, "I dunno"; "The chip butty and a pint of lager" and "Posh and Becks".

I am no means anti-football. I have enjoyed both matches to date. But what would happen if we started fights in the name of our respective folk clubs? What if we very loudly and agressively supported our local morris teams? What if any other so called 'supporters' started as much trouble as these 'fans' do? The activity would be banned. That's what.

Quite easy one to solve then surely? Ban all public displays of football. No fans. No trouble. Easy;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 03:52 PM

At first I put this down to filthy German propaganda

It must be propaganda, the police try to tell us each day how much better the English fans behave than the expectations were (which were low, as I have mentioned), and never mention the twelve drunks they had to put in custody.

Actually, the worst incident so far were German and Polish hooligans who had planned to smack each other since years the day when Germany played Poland. A few German hooligans even had stopped beating each other exactly so long before the championship that their probation time was over and they had to be allowed near the action again (must have been hard for them). Clever. But they had told about that plan in the web. Stupid. So the police was prepared for the showdown and stopped the action with two officers for each hooligan within a minute. They barely made the evening news and that only with a comment that all in all everything was quieter than expected.

So those looking for action have to wait until the English team is eliminated. That is the last small hope for ugly pictures (unless you 'hope' for a suicide bomb in a crowd).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Alice
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:39 PM

I thought this thread was about Bush swooping in to another president's country without even notifying him... or, hey, what about an invitation.... and sit grinning and smirking about his little surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:24 AM

alanabit - glory, how I'd like to be there! But alas, I'm living far from Cologne.

Consolation for our guests: We have our hooligans, too. I could have vomited when I saw one knocked down by the police (well done) wearing a service flag like a kilt, and the proud eagle just covering his bloody ass. Biff them all.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: David C. Carter
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:31 AM

In Germany?

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: alanabit
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:26 AM

Shock! Horror! Scandal! British football fans fail to commit acts of violence! Pubs unsmashed! Friends made! My goodness, where will it all end?

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:05 AM

The balance of comments in this thread bear no relation to the reality. There ris a huge army of England fans in Germany - probably well over 100,000 - and overwhelmingly they are proving to be good-natured and generous-spirited. I have even seen footage of England fans apparently fraternising with foreigners. At first I put this down to filthy German propaganda, but now I think the reports must be authentic. It is very worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 08:49 AM

"We have won" can also be a fine moment of shared feelings.
It happened to me the day before yesterday and I'll never forget my surprise. I had been in a train when Germany played Poland and only knew the half time result when the train arrived. I took a taxi and had the intention to ask the taxi driver for the final result. But the guy in the taxi was of middle East appearance and had a strong middle East accent. Oh well, I thought, I'll find out at home. He wouldn't know the details of the German game and probably supported Iran or whatever and might even be glad about Germany loosing.

So I kept silent. But he couldn't keep silent: "Have you heard already, we have won." And only when he told that Neuville scored from a pass by Odonkor I realised whom he meant by "we". I smiled at him, asked him all the details he knew and was a bit ashamed about my prejudices.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Pied Piper
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 09:22 AM

What I love about football is the way it encourages magnanimity in victory and dignity in defeat.
I'm just glad that 100,000 of these "Gentlemen" are away for the next few weeks and not pissing on our chips.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: alanabit
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 07:51 AM

You are right Kevin. Unfortunately, there are Germans alive, who, as children, saw the faces of Spitfire pilots machine gunning their grannies and cats. They are not keen on Spitfire jokes. I cringe at the sight of these boors. I'll take the piss out the Germans if we beat them in ten days time. I'll get the same back if it goes the other way. All that war stuff... it really is time it was buried.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:02 PM

the theme tune to the classic World War Two movie "The Great Escape."

The theme from The Dam Busters is the other one. With the arms held out like wings like kids in a playground.

Spitfire - quite a good beer too. (Some interesting stuff there about the fighter as well.)

There's a fine line between teasing and thuggery, and room for a lot of misunderstandings as to where it gets drawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 05:52 PM

An American college student hung around with football hooligans as a sort of project. He wrote a book about it: "Amongst The Thugs"

About five or so years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Les from Hull
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 05:44 PM

Looks nowt like a Spitfire!

What English football hooligans like most is publicity. I'm sure that most of them feel they've got a reputation to keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 05:14 PM

Douglas Adams said it all:


Arthur Dent: "In England we have a word"
Ford Prefect: "Had a word."
Arthur Dent: "Called 'tact'!

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 03:24 PM

No, they're tat, and a very good example of it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Ernest
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 11:50 AM

Guest 9:22: the Germans viewing this site will probably agree with Wolfgang - as I do.

And before Sir jOhn starts it: are inflatable Spitfires rubbish? And inflatable soccer-fans?

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:08 AM

If any of you are in Köln tomorrow evening, you can come to my place and watch England on TV. There will be beer drunk, sausages eaten, cursing, cheering and howls of derision at the appropriate (or inappropriate) moments. The house will be full of English fans and German fans and we will meet and part as friends. It will be the same way in two weeks time, if the likely happens and a second placed England team meets Germany in the second round. It won't get in the newspapers though. "Mates meeet and have a good time" does not make an exciting headline. As for those bastards, who have come to fight, why should they get all the attention?

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:22 AM

Nice as always to see Wolfgang flying the flag for England !
Hope no Germans viewing the site.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:18 AM

Well, maybe I can pick up a second hand one on eBay after the madness dies...

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:04 AM

Don't blame the drinking...these knuckle draggers are total assholes when they DON'T drink. Their collective IQ is about room temperature.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:52 AM

The answer is darts.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:29 AM

Well you can buy one at their website but after seeing it and reading the sight.....Fuck him!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:22 AM

Just to add to that Greg.....Although the Spit is the most talked about and the symbol of the Battle of Britain, there were far more Hurricanes used and sorties flown than Spitfire. The Hurri was not a bad fighter by any means but it was not the match of the Spitfire. The Spitfire caught the imagination of the people though, sadly also the leader of this particular promo as well.

Obviously he knew that radar played a greater part than either plane (along with a few disastrous decisions on the part of Hitler et al, but he says he didn't think radar was as "sexy." He's right of course but sticking a toy radar tower up their collective asses would be more fun than an inflatable Spitfire.

But I am with the Fool there.....Where do I get one???(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:19 AM

Stripped down ones did especially good as photo recon platforms. They didn't have sufficient range to escort bombers deep into Germany, or perform deep strafing strikes, but, goddamn! they look beautiful! Still called perhaps one of the most aesthetic fighters ever designed. Actually Hurricanes did the bulk of the hard work in the Battle of Britain, I do believe - Spits were always the 'glamour boys'.

Saw the British TV docos on both the Spitfire and Lancaster, where they took current pilots and dumped them in the deep end war time style training to see how they went, with a chance to fly one of the few remaining flying examples of each.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:01 AM

Spitfires were essentially defensive weapons, deployed in the Battle of Britain in an effort to stop German bombers getting through. (This is not designed as a total defense of the soccer lout, though, just an observation on military history)

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:52 AM

So just where can I get an inflatable Spitfire then?

Should I ask my Secret Santee? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 06:01 AM

Each country has it's own problems with football thugs, many worse than England these days.

Whilst singing 'we won the war' and waving inflatable spitfires is not really very nice, compared to some other fans it's just having a laugh.

The German fans have problems with neo-Nazis. They use inflatable numbers to represent Hitler, the Holocaust etc, and they are ultra-violent.

The Polish represent the biggest problem though. Their football hooligans make the Chealsea firm look like the W.I. They are incredibly violent, arranging fights on and off the pitch and they riot nearly ever game - it's been a long time since that's happened in English football grounds (and long may it remain so).

From: GUEST,Inkspot - PM
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:01 PM

Superb post Inkspot - do you actually know what you're talking about or do you just belive what you see on the telly?

"England fans draped in the flag of St. George" Probably because that's the national flag - anything to say on the Brazilians/French/Germans etc etc draped in their flags or wearing their team's shirts? Here's a clue for you - and it's folk music - listen to the track Roots on the new Show of Hands album to give some insight into how many English feel about their national identity.

"Come on England" and "Football's Coming Home" are footbal fan's songs, completely inoffensive as far as I am aware (indeed, many foreign fans sing the Baddeil and Skinner song - this is about the spirit of football to most people).

"The Great Escape." This is sung because for years a small brass band has followed the England team to support them from the stands. They play the Great Escape when an incident happens on the pitch resulting in a lucky break for either team playing - it's got sod all to do with the fact it's Germany or anyone else - it's just a bit of humour about the game.

The real problem with football hooligans is they tend to colour the views of the less discerning about all football fans from any particular country - and this Sun reader mentality is far more dangerous than the boorish antics of spitfire-waving binge-drinkers.

stigWeard

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 05:59 AM

Drunks often behave badly. When they do, it only brings disrepute on themselves--and allows their targets to feel superior--as long as there's no physical violence (as Wolfgang points out.)

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 05:13 AM

Any drunken crowd from any country seems to consist of the most ugly and nasty selection of persons from that country. I know how often I change the side of the street (say at a German touristic hotspot) and hope nobody thinks I may come from the same country as those brutes.

The American world cup tourists are nicer for two main reasons: (1) They are fewer and (2) they come from farther away. Prejudices in football seem to be stronger when the other team comes from a nearby country. You should hear what the Swiss, Austrians, Dutch etc. fans sing in our streets. And what the Polish sing we don't understand, which is perhaps better.

Some world cups ago we had a big football hit titled "Without Holland we go to the world cup" which is revived each time Holland is eliminated before Germany. In the border regions of course some German crowds cross the border to sing it in the faces of the Dutch. On the other hand, they'll sing "Oh, how silent are the Moffen now" when we are eliminated and of course it is more fun to sing it at our side of the border.

From the point of view of the police the English fans are still far better than the (low) expectations. They may sing whatever they want as long as they keep singing, and as long as they do not use the beermugs to stick them in others faces the police will still be happy. The memories of a group of German fans beating a French policeman half dead (he's still a cripple today) are still fresh. So, every amount of verbal violence is better than that.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 05:03 AM

I think what they mean is 'you lost the war' and the are not saying that they won it alone and on their lonesome.
Pejoritive remarks seem to be the stock in trade of most football hooligans, it's just that these animals seem to have raised it to an art form.
The people concerned were easily identifiable on the newsreel shots I saw, so they should be immediately arrested and returned to Merrie England, where they should be charged with bringing the country into disrepute. They should also take their little inflatable Spitfires and insert them in their fundamental orofices while they're at it.
I am as usual, disgusted by the antics of these tossers, and feel sorry for people who go to these countries afterwards for a holiday, and get treated badly as a result of the behaviour of the footie arseholes.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 04:56 AM

Last time we were in Germany, the only reference made to the War was a short performance by one of our pipers at the towns War memorial. He played Amazing Grace, and the German National equivilent of the Last Post, and it seemed right.

As for English football thugs, the German police should deport them to Glasgow, in their full kit, on a Friday or Saturday night...

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 04:30 AM

By the way, where do they get that "WE won the war" stuff? Not without a hell of a lot of help they didn't!! Furthermore, the idiots who go around acting like shit heads didn't have anything to do with winning the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 04:26 AM

This kind of hooliganism is what gives sports a bad name. These half wits seem to be getting worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 03:52 AM

Ebbie- "staid old merry England"- go to any English (or Welsh) town or city on a Friday or Saturday night, and you won't see much in the way of staid. You'll see much of the young-to-middling cohort of a very unhappy society getting bladdered as fast as they can, and town centre pubs designed to screw as much profit out of their desperate merriment as possible.

The war (whatever the reality) brought Britain a sense of social cohesion and idealism, that led to the social reforms of the late 1940s. The atomisation of society that accompanied subsequent affluence has dissipated that- it was already far decayed when Thatcher gave it the coup de grace in the 80s.

As has often been said, we won the war, but lost the peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:16 PM

Wow. For some reason I had been under the impression that the football violence that so frequently breaks out during the World Cup was invaribly triggered and participated in by and among the countries such as those in South America, although I remember reading about Italian crowds rioting. But England? Staid old merry England?

In the US the closest to this kind of activity is when, for instance, a National Basketball championship series has ended. Oddly- not often but often enough - sometimes there is rioting even in the city that took the championship. Which makes no sense at all.

Back to the thread: When a crowd of supporter says "We won the war", do they realize how silly that is? That war has been over with more than 60 years; these supporters had nuffink to do with it. If they keep going like this, they could end up like the US. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: GUEST,Inkspot
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:01 PM

Germans are going to have to get used to the sight of tattooed England fans draped in the flag of St. George marching through their streets wielding inflatable Spitfires for the next few weeks.

The English army of 100,000 is flooding into Germany during World Cup and they're already living up to their reputation of being among the world's heaviest-drinking and dangerous supporters.


Thousands of England fans arrived in Nuremberg today chanting into the faces of passing locals, the national anthem as well as "Come on England", "Ten German Bombers", "Rule Britannia", "Football's Coming Home" and the theme tune to the classic World War Two movie "The Great Escape." The ones that weren't wearing England shirts were bare-chested, sporting elaborate tattoos and equally impressive beer guts.

What lovely people.

Subject: RE: BS: Showing respect to another country
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:54 PM

Gosh, supporters of association football behave badly, shock horror....

Subject: BS: Don't Mention the War !
From: GUEST,Rory Gemmill
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:47 PM

It was so sad tonight on the British television news to see gangs of England football supporters standing in the streets of Germany with large models of World War Two spitefire fighter planes pushing them into the faces of passing Germans going home from work. They arrived in Nuremberg for their match there on Thursday. They got off trains and buses in the town and marched through the streets going the Nazi goose step march. The German police said no other countries supporters acted in such a manner. They shouted at passers by, WE WON THE WAR.

The German police praised the American supporters, calling them gentlemen and ladies.

Well done America.

Go to BBC news to read more.

This is one report.

England fans in Nuremberg for the team's World Cup clash can expect a tougher approach, the head of British police at the World Cup has said.

The residential nature of the city centre will see police use preventative powers to stop trouble, Assistant Chief Constable Steve Thomas said.

A number of English supporters were arrested in Frankfurt, where England played their first match on Saturday.

But ACC Thomas warned there could be more arrests in Nuremberg.

He said: "The England supporters must understand that we are guests in Nuremberg, and that our behaviour has to be as the guests.

"Unless they behave very well, we may see slightly more arrests here than we did in Frankfurt, because the police are more likely to use their preventative powers here because of the beauty of the town."