BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:19 AM

" . . . he went with his wife to London, where he was well received by the king and the Tories, but frowned upon by the Whigs. In 1787 he removed to St. John's, New Brunswick, and entered into mercantile business with his sons Richard and Henry. In 1791 he returned to London and settled there permanently. In 1792 he fought a bloodless duel with the earl of Landerdale, for a remark which the latter had made about him in the House of Lords. His last years were embittered by remorse."

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:00 AM

Benedict Arnold was an interesting, but tragic figure. He was a very efficient general and he fought hard and extremely well for the revolutionaries in the early going, but he seems to have been overly ambitious and egotistical. Accordingly, he began to feel that he had not received enough reward for his efforts (in the form of promotion, I suppose, or other rewards). He became disgruntled with the revolutionary command, feeling that he was not being accorded the degree of respect and attention he felt he was deserving of.

In this mood, he seems to have come to the conclusion that he could do better with the British if he changed sides. Perhaps he also felt that the British were more likely to win the war....in fact, having a reputedly very high opinion of himself, he probably figured that the British would win for sure if he lent them his considerable talents in the field.

As it turned out, his plans went a bit awry, and he had to depart the American side in unseemly haste to save himself from being caught as a turncoat. His ambitious plans came to nothing. The British did not make much use of his services, as far as I know, and he lived out his life miserably in later years as an exile in England, a man essentially without a country.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 12:47 AM

"Hale regretted that he had but one life to give for his country. Henry wanted liberty or death."

So where does Benedict Arnold fit in?

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 10:55 AM

So, what Little Hawk really should have titled this thread is "See how clevair I yam!!!". But, in all honesty, it was a good speech and he is.

There's a thread name gam for you -- if thread names were required to state the actual intent of the author, just imagine.


:D


A

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:48 AM

Yeah, but what a great sell-out speech, eh? ;-) Much more dramatic than what he really said.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 06:54 AM

But he didn't sell out rendering all this moot. How one renders moot I don't know - but he did it.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:56 PM

Hale regretted that he had but one life to give for his country. Henry wanted liberty or death.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:08 PM

You're so right, Matt. I've been getting those two confused for years.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:01 PM

and Bob Dylan!

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Matt_R
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:54 PM

If he had sold out, people wouldn't constantly confuse him with Patrick Henry.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:20 PM

Your point being?

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:20 PM

What if Nathan Hale's aunt had testicles?

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:16 PM

I doubt Gore is friends with the bin Laden family . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:05 PM

If Al Gore had been president when 9/11 happened, they would already have impeached him for incompetence for letting it happen.

Hmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:04 PM

LOL!!! Not a chance. Number one...neither the Germans nor the Japanese could possibly have mounted an across-ocean effort capable of successfully invading and occupying North America. Not in their wildest dreams could they have done it! They didn't have the industrial might. They didn't have the manpower. They would never have had the chance to divide up the USA between themselves.

Furthermore, they would have had a falling out long before that, I'm sure...

The Germans might have won the war in Europe, and they might have defeated Russia, specially if the Japanese had made a major effort against the Soviets from the East while the Germans fought them in the West. In that case, the German and Japanese spheres of influence would have most likely collided somewhere in the vicinity of central Siberia or India...and they would have ended up fighting each other there not long after. The USA would have stood aside and watched, while it armed itself to the teeth and built up its forces.

However, I suppose as pure fantasy a German-Japanese takeover of America makes an interesting story.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:39 PM

Has anyone read "The Man in the High Castle" by Phillip K Dick ? The premise is that WW2 was won by the Germans and the Japanese. They divided the United States - west of the Mississippi belonged to the Japanese and the east was ruled by the Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:19 PM

Roger Whittaker

I Don't Believe In If Anymore


Now if you load your rifle right
And if you fix your bayonet so
And if you kill that man my friend
The one we call the foe
And if you do it often lad
And if you do it right
You'll be a hero overnight
You'll save your country from her plight
Remember God is always right
If you survive to see the sight
A friend now greeting foe

No you won't believe in If anymore
It's an illusion
It's an illusion
No you won't believe in If anymore
If is for children
If is for children
Building daydreams

If I knew then what I know now
(I thought I did you know somehow)
If I could have the time again
I'd take the sunshine leave the rain
If only time would trickle slow
Like rain that melts the fallen snow
If only Lord if only
If only Lord if only

Oh I don't believe in If anymore
It's an illusion
It's an illusion
No I don't believe in If anymore
If is for children
If is for children
Building daydreams

No I don't believe in If anymore
It's an illusion
It's an illusion
No I don't believe in If anymore
If is for children
If is for children
Building daydreams

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:57 PM

Hmm. Assuming it had happened at all in that case... Indeed, what if?

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:55 PM

And what if Al Gore had been President on 9-11?

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:36 PM

Simon Oglethorpe (Hartford lawyer) was mentioned by Twain. Just in case anyone wants to know.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:24 PM

I'm thinking of a few good sequels, like..."What if Patrick Henry had wimped out?"..."What if Paul Revere had slept in?"..."What if the Alamo had surrendered on the first day?"..."What if George Washington had changed sides?"...that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:10 PM

Heh!

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:52 PM

Well there ya go, Little Hawk!! Answered your own question!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:39 PM

Those stupid American history classes I had to take in when I was living in New York State would have had one less glorious incident to blather on about endlessly. Nathan Hale would have ended up being about as well known as Simon Oglethorpe or Harry Lee Wigley.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 01:05 PM

I think it would have delayed the inevitable. The US would still have seperated from England eventually. I hate to use the words manifest destiny - but it fits the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 12:31 PM

The military tends to follow orders. They would have hanged him.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 12:24 PM

How might it have affected 8th grade history courses in the USA?

We might have a much better education system, like they do in Canada, for one. The war of 1812 would probably never have happened, or even the Civil War, for that matter.

Plus Ketchup would taste better and we would probably have a lot more Tim Hortons here in the US. And the Beer Store. I'm having a hard time seeing the down side.

Subject: BS: What if Nathan Hale had sold out?
From: GUEST,Bruscott T.
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 11:34 AM

Nathan Hale is probably the best known but least successful American agent in the War of Independence. He embarked on his espionage mission into British-held New York as a volunteer, impelled by a strong sense of patriotism and duty. Before leaving on the mission he reportedly told a fellow officer: "I am not influenced by the expectation of promotion or pecuniary award; I wish to be useful, and every kind of service necessary to the public good becomes honorable by being necessary. If the exigencies of my country demand a peculiar service, its claims to perform that service are imperious."

But dedication was not enough. Captain Hale had no training experience, no contacts in New York, no channels of communication, and no cover story to explain his absence from camp-only his Yale diploma supported his contention that he was a "Dutch schoolmaster." He was captured while trying to slip out of New York, was convicted as a spy and went to the gallows on September 22, 1776. Witnesses to the execution reported the dying words that gained him immortality (a paraphrase of a line from Joseph Addison's play Cato: "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country."


But what if Nathan Hale had sold out to the British? What if, upon being arrested and brought to trial for espionage...or even upon the scaffold at the penultimate moment he had loudly declared:

"This is all a tragic error! My loyalty to the Crown is unshakeable. I sing 'God Save The King' three times every day, with tears in my eyes! I hate the revolutionaries! They are all seditious scum. They kidnapped my wife and children and forced me to spie for them, the fiends! They blackmailed me and threatened to shoot my dog, Ruffles. Their perfidy knows no limits. George Washington is a corrupt, lying, incompetent fool who should be shot, beheaded, and buried in an umarked grave! Patrick Henry is a lascivious, wife-beating, vainglorious fraud! Ben Franklin copulates with farm animals! They are all traitors to the one great man in this world whom I admire MOST and to whom I would swear my life, my honor, yes even my last drop of blood! Our noble monarch, King George III! Yes, how I admire him! Set me free at once that I may join the blessed redcoated ranks and met out deadly retribution upon these filthy revolutionary traitors!"

And then, bursting into song, he sang: "God save our glorious King..."

What if? How would he be remembered today? Would he be remembered at all? How might it have affected 8th grade history courses in the USA?

Would the British have been naive enough to not execute him?

These are all questions worth pondering, and the Mudcat is the place in which to ponder them.