Hymn-tune popularity contest

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 10:19 AM

Definitely my choice would be Cwm Rhondda but there are other cracking tunes based on English folk tunes that'd get my vote too.

By the way, although not a practising Christian, I have to say that nearly all the modern hymn tunes I've heard have been awful. Much too light-weight and/or trying to be jolly: it just doesn't work for me.

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: JohnB
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 09:20 PM

I have only written two songs in my lifetime, the first one took me 50 years to write (OK 45 min in real time) I used the tune to Sine Nomine. It is now known as the Guiness song, so that's the one that gets my vote.
JohnB

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 06:44 PM

Joe, the way the guy's got it set up, at any given time there are only two tunes in the running: it's a winner-take-all primary: Here's the grid. There are eight first-round match-ups, then it will be run-off time, and in the first run-off it will be Sine Nomine vs. Ich glaub' an Gott.

The current match-up is St. Theodulph vs. St. Anne; the next will be Hyfrydol vs. Lasst uns erfreuen.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 06:42 PM

Gosh, I thought the all time favourite was "The Lord's my Shepherd"
(psalm 23)and "Crimond".....

Kitty

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 06:36 PM

Yeah, as you can see I'm in a pedantic vein today. Sorry!

Haruo

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 06:26 PM

Glad to see that Cwm Rhonnda and "The Day thou gavest" have both turned up already. My two favourites.

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 06:03 PM

I didn't notice that until after posting but felt it was more than a little superfluous, if not positively pedantic, to point out!

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:59 PM

Oh, also, the début of CWM RHONDDA was in 1907 not 19073. The "3" was a superscript footnote that wasn't reformatted after Emma cut and pasted the passage, I think.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:45 PM

Liz, Bach generally just wrote the music (and for that matter a lot of the pieces that are normally thought of as his work are actually his arrangements of other folks' tunes). So saying "Bread of Heaven is a hymn by Bach" is both to deny credit to the lyricist (the text you mention is by Josiah Conder) and likely to fail to honor the composer as well. Granted, Bach was a truly great arranger, and granted, when he wrote his own stuff he was a mightly fine composer, but still let's give credit where credit is due. Now as far as the music of "Bread of Heaven" goes, The Cyber Hymnal gives four tunes, with Paul Heinlein's JESU, JESU, DU MEIN HIRT, 1676, as default choice (the one that plays when you load the page), as well as the "tune proper" (i.e. one that has the incipit as its tune name), BREAD OF HEAVEN by Will­iam D. Mac­La­gan, 1875; HOUGHTON-LE-SPRING by Sam­u­el S. Wes­ley, 1860; and NICHT SO TRAURIG by Jo­hann G. Ebel­ing, 1666.

The Oremus Hymnal also gives Heinlein's tune (not to be confused with the tune formerly often called HEINLEIN but nowadays usually called AUS DER TIEFEâ€"oddly, this tune, attributed to Martin Herbst, came out in the same year, 1676, as the tune by Heinlein) as the default, but it mentions two others, CHRISTOPHER (about which I have no information except that apparently it is not the Christopher also known as IHR GESTIRN' which is mentioned as an alternate tune for the Christian ROCK OF AGES* usually sung to REDHEAD 76 [also called PETRA and occasionally AJALON] in England and to TOPLADY in the US) and JESU, MEINE ZUVERSICHT by Johann Crüger. This last was arranged by Bach; is it the tune you had in mind?

Hymnologically yours,
Haruo

*not to be confused with the Jewish Rock of Ages, tune name MAOZ TSUR, a Hanukkah hymn sometimes used in Christian worship or as a tune for Christian lyrics (e.g. Men and Children Everywhere. The tune is of German folk origin. The English version linked above is a fairly loose adaptation and has only three stanzas unlike the original Hebrew's five.

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 03:18 PM

That's the one Azizi - and amply explained above.

It's known as 'Bread of Heaven' by those who only remember the second bit. 'Bread of Heaven' is actually a hymn by Bach, 'Bread of Heaven, on Thee we feed, for thy bread is meat indeed' and is a much more reflective tune, not to mention about 200 years older.

LTS

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 01:59 PM

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/h/w/hwhowvbe.htm

my personal favourite but sung to the tune of "A Blacksmith Courted Me" and preferably by Shirley Collins

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 01:56 PM

Thanks, Emma B!

That's interesting. I love learning things like that.

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 01:54 PM

fuller "history" here

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 01:51 PM

Welsh hymn tunes were simple, rousing melodies which could be easily grasped by congregations who often were hearing them for the first time. Also, the tunes were often named after the places where they were written, so that peripatetic organists could instantly recognise the tune and let the chapel sing whatever lyrics they wanted. 'Cwm Rhondda' simply means 'the Rhondda Valley.' However, despite its Welsh name, the hymn is actually written, and properly performed, in English. 'Cwm Rhondda' was written by John Hughes, the organist of Capel Rhondda in Hopkinstown, near Pontypridd. Hughes had been asked to write a tune for the inauguration of the chapel and its organ in the early 1900s. He took an earlier set of words written by William Williams (Arglwydd, Arwain Trwy'r Anialwch), who published them in 1745, and arranged a tune to them. Unusually, there had been a large influx of English-speakers into that area as the railway was being built and the chapel was originally intended to serve as a place of worship for them. Hughes used an English translation, 'Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah,' for its first performance in 19073, with Hughes himself at Capel Rhondda's mighty organ and it rapidly gained in popularity.

from the BBC web site

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 01:46 PM

Liz the Squeak,

Cwm Rhondda, Hey! That's another song I know!
At least I think so. I didn't know it was named after a girl name Rhonda, though.

The name I knew it by was "Guide me, Oh Thou Great Jehovah"
{Guide me oh, Thou Great Jehovah/pilgrim through this barren land/I am weak but Thou art mighty/hold me with Thou powerful hand".
The "bread of heaven" part comes in the refrain {bread of heaven, bread of heaven feed me till I want no more}.

Is this the same song you are talking about? If so, I'd vote for that one over the other ones mentioned.

But what I wanna know is what does "Rhonda" have to with this song and what does "Cwn" mean anyway?

[No disrespect intended].

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 01:40 PM

"The Day Thou Gavest" has my vote for the best tune.

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 12:54 PM

You will go a long way to beat the tune to In the Bleak Midwinter in my opinion.
Giok

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 12:34 PM

I haven't had time or mental focus needed to figure out the process of the election, but I'd like to cast my vote for Sine Nomine ("For All the Saints")
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Haruo
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 12:55 PM

Yes, I thought it was an odd thing to say. Maybe he simply meant that virtually every day is a Saint's Day of some saint or other, but relatively few of them actually get the day's worship dedicated to them in any visible (or audible) way. And of course in a typical hymnal, even of the denominations that go in for Saints' Days, only a few saints get hymns of their own. I don't know if that's what he meant, but it might be.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 04:29 AM

"those few Saints' days that have music" ???

From what I remember, the majority of saints days that are observed are reasons for feast days (it's a holyday after all, and what do you do on holiday?) and have the most marvellous music. Look in any haigiography or here, and you'll find literally hundreds of saints to be celebrated, one for each day of the year (today, Sept 3rd is Gregory the Great, C540-604, elected pope in 590 and sent Augustine to England, thus kick-starting the conversion of Britain)... if he doesn't deserve music then who does?!

LTS

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Haruo
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 04:14 AM

Well, you can always go to the guy's blog and tell him what tunes he should have included. I agree Cwm Rhondda is a great one. But maybe that's a Protestant sectarian preference (he's very Catholic, Tridentine rite organist etc.), or one that a Catholic sectarian (ought to be an oxymoron, no, Joe?) viewpoint would preclude. (For example, he seems to think Sine Nomine is something one would only perform on "those few Saints' days that have music" or words to that effect, whereas I can readily see it on a Sunday in Ordinary Time, or at a memorial service for an uncanonized departee...

Haruo

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:01 AM

What? No Cwm Rhondda (Guide me, o Thou great Redeemer/Jehovah, commonly but erroneously known as 'bread of heaven')???

LTS

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:49 PM

Well, I really didn't wanna do it but curiousity made me.

I listened to the midi for the song that I didn't vote for and I still like the one I voted for the best.

Thank goodness.

And thanks, Harou for that info about the St. Anne's song. See you never know what you're going to learn on the 'Cat!

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Haruo
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:43 PM

Well, I voted for St. Theodulph, so you don't need to go back, Azizi. ;-)

I think there are little links to the midi files somewhere in the blog.

And yes, "Our God, our help in ages past" is the same song and to the same tune (St. Anne) as "O God, our help..." Isaac Watts, who was after all a rather particular Puritan, wrote it as "Our God" and a generation later the more broadminded, less parochial Wesley brothers rewrote the first word as "O". Since St. Anne was composed in 1708, it may well have been the tune of choice for the text from the very beginning.

Other texts the CyberHymnal lists as sung to St. Anne are
   1. HAIL FA­THER, SON AND SPIR­IT GREAT
   2. O LORD AND MAS­TER OF US ALL
   3. LORD, AS TO THY DEAR CROSS WE FLEE
   4. LORD WHO HAS RE­MEM­BERED US, THE
   5. LOVERS OF PLEA­SURE MORE THAN GOD
   6. O GOD, OUR WORDS CAN­NOT EX­PRESS
   7. O GOD, THE HELP OF ALL THY SAINTS
   8. O GOD, THE STRENGTH OF THOSE WHO WAR
and there are certainly others, including newer ones not in the CyberHymnal for copyright reasons, such as "Creator God, Creating Still". Here is a simple MIDI of St. Anne.

And here is a similar MIDI of St. Theodulph. Its customary text is "All Glory, Laud and Honour" (a translation of the Latin hymn "Gloria Laus et Honor" written by none other than St. Theodulph hymnself); the only other text I recall seeing set to it in a hymnal is "Blessed be the King whose coming is in the name of God" (a fairly recent translation of a fairly recent Spanish hymn starting "Bendito el Rey que viene...") but there are probably others.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 10:07 PM

I suppose the choir loft is dusty because these tunes are old?

Thanks for cluing me into the fact that St. Anne's is the same tune as "Our God, our help in ages past". Is that the same as tune as "Oh, God our help in ages past/our hope for years to come/our shelter in the stormy blast/and our eternal home?"

I hope so 'because I voted for it just because I had no idea what that St. Theodulph song sounds like.

But maybe that St. Anne's song doesn't have the tune I think it does and the other song has a tune I do know.

Maybe I should go back and vote for St. Theodulph just to make my vote even.

Should I or shouldn't I?

St Anne's versus St. Theodulph? Which has the best tune?

How the heck do I know???

Oh woe is me! Where's a midi when you wanna hear one?

What?! Me wanna hear a midi?!! What in the world was I thinking????!

Okay. Okay. I've returned to my senses.

Hallelujah, for that close call

And may the best dusty tune win.

Subject: Hymn-tune popularity contest
From: Haruo
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:06 AM

Go here to see the pair-ups and here to vote. The current contretemps is betwixt St. Theodulph ("All glory, laud and honour") and St. Anne ("Our God, our help in ages past"). Apparently in the first match-up Ich glaub' an Gott (which I've never heard of) beat out Diademata ("Crown Him with many crowns"), and in the second Sine nomine ("For all the saints") slaughtered Aurelia ("The Church's one foundation"). The blog where it is all talked about is The Dusty Choir Loft.

Haruo