BS: Bonhomme Richard found?

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 05:35 PM

Cochrane was an extraordinary officer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 05:07 PM

Les-

This is certainly one of the best stories and Jones' experience as an admiral for Empress Catherine the Great is another one; he managed once again to inspire a group of officers who were jealous of his command and one another to defeat a much larger Turkish fleet in the two battles of Liman on the 6th and 17th of June, 1788 in the Black Sea. It's a pity that he later died of pneumonia in Paris, while awaiting the arrival of two new commissions from President Washington. He was only 47 when he died, and could have played a major role in rebuilding the U.S. Navy and training her officers.

I wonder how he would have got on with Lord Thomas Cochrane, had he survived another 20 years. Cochrane was another inspiring naval officer who also found it difficult to fit in with the navy establishment.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 09:31 AM

There's already been a movie about it, but I doubt that it was any good. Even Master and Commander had to change the American enemy to a French one as Hollywood wouldn't make a film where the Americans lost, even if it was pure fiction!

Certainly Jones was a brave and daring commander, but not really so well by some of the lionising he was subjected to in later years and since his death. He probably didn't say 'I have not yet begun to fight', but that is what he is remembered for. Nelson was quite careful to have some memorable dying words 'Thank God that I have done my duty' which he said more than once to make sure that people got it right, but ask almost anyone and they'll say it was 'Kiss me Hardy', except the homophobes who maintain it was 'Kismet, Hardy'. Poor Lawrence is remembered for 'Don't give up the ship' in spite of the fact that that is exactly what they did ten minutes later.

Reading about sea-fights it is difficult to get a neutral view, because usually there were no neutrals present, and if they were, they were only in one place. But you do learn that the actions are sometimes decided by one or two chance events.

The bursting of one or two of the Bonhomme Richard's ancient 18 pounders could have been quite disastrous, cost him his best gun crews at his heaviest guns. Of course what Pearson should have done at this point was to hold off and batter Jones with his heavier guns.

The next chance event was the interaction with the prisoners. If the prisoners had risen and attempted to take the ship instead of being convinced to man the pumps (in fact relieving some of Jones' own crew) then it might have been a different story. This could have happened because of the presence of a large contingent of marines or because of the forcefulness of Jones' character. Maybe a bit of both.

When the ships grappled it was the Bonhomme Richard which was the better manned and armed, again the effect of the large marine contingent (the Serapis would have had about 50 marines). As the ships closed the Serapis had quite a few upper deck casualties. The next chance event was an American grenade setting off British ready-use cartridges (a precursor of British battlecruisers at Jutland!) causing up to 50 casualties.

Still these stories do make fascinating reading, don't they? I've been reading them since a boy,both fact and fiction, starting with CS Forrester. And it's great fun to be able to share that interest with other 'catters.

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: clueless don
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 09:03 AM

I doubt that it qualified as a "really good" movie, but I remember seeing a movie of the life of John Paul Jones, including the surrender of the Serapis. It starred, as I recall, a young Robert Stack (who went on to portray Eliot Ness in the TV series "The Untouchables".)

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 09:43 PM

Damn good work on his part! Someone ought to make a really good movie about it...up to the standard of "Master and Commander" and treat both Jones and Pearson with equal honor, following both their careers to the desperate encounter. It could be great, if it were done properly.

But what if Mel Gibson decided to direct it? Ouch! The British would all be presented as completely despicable psychopaths, and Jones would impale Pearson with his sword in the climactic scene, instead of what really happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 08:37 PM

Little Hawk-

We're probably not unique in burying our less than glorious history. Check out the Battle of the Penobscot here in Maine during the Revolutionary War. What a cast of characters, Commodore Saltonstall, Paul Revere, and many more! A huge fleet of American ships, more than 50 including transports, all focused on trying to take one half-built British fort.
Well, they diddled about for a month. Then five well-armed British ships came to the rescue, chased the American fleet up the Penobscot River, and all were set fire to avoid capture. That's when I discovered that to better appreciate history one had to go beyond the text book.

Les-

Jones' crew was primarily a mixture of American and British sailors, and French marines:

"79 Americans, 61 Englishmen, 33 Portugese, 18 Irishmen, 7 Sweedes, 5 Scotchmen, 3 Norwegians, 1 Italian, 1 Swiss, 1 Frenchmen, and 34 of unknown nationalities." In addition there was a company of French marines, 5 officiers and 132 men.

He later

The decisive factor was John Paul Jones himself.

When the British prisoners from his prizes made a rush for the deck as their quarters began to fill with water, it was Jones who confronted them in the midst of the battle and convinced them to help pump or sink with the ship.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 02:07 PM

By golly, Les, I knew there must have been a bunch of other American warships at the time...and I wondered why one never hears much about them. ;-) One only tends to hear about the battles which were won by the Americans...or in the case of the Chesapeake and the Shannon, one hears a good deal about the American captain's glorious dying words "Don't give up the ship!" (they did, however, give it up...after a desperate fight and very heavy casualties)

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 02:01 PM

I agree that the Bonhomme Richard was a makeshift warship not up to the standard of the Serapis which was a new 44gun ship - a two-decker fifth rate. The heavier broadside proved effective in sinking the Bonhomme Richard. The difference was in the crews, and it was the American crew that carried the day by boarding.

Possibly the difference was the actions of Alliance firing into both ships (perhaps contributing the Bonhomme Richard's sinking?). But Pearson would have only knew about the damage being caused to his own ship, the casualties he had taken and the fact that there was at least one strong, relatively fresh enemy ship in the offing.

I am unsure about the fact that Jones was possibly wanted for murder in the UK (I believe in quelling a mutiny) might have given him extra incentive. Any thoughts, evidence?

Les

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:45 PM

Little Hawk-

Well, we do agree on Capt. John Paul Jones. And I suppose I should point out that he was trained in the Royal Navy.

Unfortunately, most of the American frigate captains were not up to his caliber and their first wave of new ships were picked off one by one, and their history buried from our eyes. Those frigates included the Randolf, the Virginia, the Raleigh, the Hancock, the Warren, the Washington, the Boston, the Providence, the Thrumball, the Montgomery, the Effingham, the Congress and the Deleware. Later there were three other frigates the Confederacy, captured off the Virginia Capes in 1781, the Alliance which survived to the end of the war uncaptured, and the Bourbon which was not launched until the war ended.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 10:52 PM

The Bonhomme Richard was, as you say, far from being a first-class warship. That's why I say that John Paul Jones must have had a lot of nerve to take on the Serapis the way he did. But having a lot of nerve seems to have been common with fighting captains in that day (at least the ones we hear about the most). They had a strong honor system to live up to, and it seems to have compelled them to charge heedlessly into the breach even against quite superior odds.

This has provided much inspiration for fiction about the days of fighting sail, and the adventures of such characters as Hornblower and Jack Aubrey.

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 10:23 PM

I suppose it was unfair of me to characterize Capt. Pearson as a "sore loser." War is not a contact sport and he had no reason to feel pleased about losing his greatly superior ship to a make-shift man-of-war. The Richard was an old cargo ship that was converted to a man-of-war and should have been no match for the new Serapis. In addition the Richard's broadside totaled 237 lbs verus 300 lbs for the Serapis; however, two of the Richard's largest cannons were so old that they exploded when first fired killing their gun crews and reducing further her effective fire power.

It's also true that it was a normal experience in the British Navy that if a cvaptain lost his ship he would be subject to a court martial inquiry and Pearson was, indeed, exonerated.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 07:18 PM

Correct, LH. It's something that people forget about Courts Martial -- they are an investigative inquiry (enquiry, a few thousand miles east of here) which has the authority to punish if punishment is warranted.

John Percival, who was the original renovator of the USS Constitution, caused a riot in the Sandwich Islands over what he considered a slight to the United States. He also sent in his ships' Marines to put down the riot he'd started. For this, a Court Martial was convened at Annapolis, Maryland -- the result was that yes, he was guilty, and so he was told (in effect) not to do it again.

Oh, the perceived insult? It seems like the native women had been in custom of rowing out and welcoming sailors in a VERY loving fashion. Missionaries had convinced the King to put a stop to this ancient custom....

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 03:09 PM

Every captain who lost a ship in those days faced a court martial. Standard procedure in the British Navy. Courts martial were intended to gather all relevant information about an incident, which is normal in the military when any reverse is suffered. It does not necessarily indicate guilt on the part of the commander who is being courtmartialed, it simply indicates an inquiry to establish whether or NOT he did his duty as he should. There are many circumstances in which a captain can still perform admirably, do his duty to the utmost, and lose his ship anyway. Captain Pearson performed his duties very well on that day, and he was exonerated.

As to whether he was "a sore loser"...I doubt that anyone enjoys losing his own ship.

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 09:53 PM

Les-

Well, Capt. Jones didn't have to undergo a court martial procedure to explain how he lost his ship.

Capt. Pearson also appeared to be a sore loser and complained bitterly about his quarters aboard his late ship. He really only had himself to blame if they were not first class accomodations.

Capt. Fagan of the Jarvis Bay certainly deserved a VC for aggressively defending his convoy against a German battle cruiser with his armed merchant cruiser. He was hopelessly outgunned and much of his convey successfully escaped the Scheer.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 04:17 PM

Yes, well, you could say that they both won. Jones took the Serapis, but Pearson saved the convoy and sank Jones' ship.

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 03:58 PM

Win?

Captain Pearson got a knighthood for successfully defending an important convoy against heavy odds. Much like the VC awarded to the 'gallant Captain Fagan' of HMS Jervis Bay in his one-sided battle against the Admiral Scheer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 02:10 PM

It's really quite amazing that John Paul Jones managed to win the battle, considering that his ancient 18-pounder guns mostly blew up the first time they were fired, killing most of his best gunners!

Sheesh. It's not often that a commander survives negligence of that sort (using 3rd rate equipment, I mean) and still goes on to win the battle. He must have had a lot of nerve. Sounds like the British captain had a lot of nerve too.

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 02:01 PM

"Hard Port," Capt. Jones shouted as the British tried to rake his bow,
"We'll swing 'longside and board her if only the wind will allow;"
So the Bonny Dick swung 'round and broadside they both did meet,
And the cannon fire was hot and heavy as they grappled up so neat!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 03:02 AM

I may give that a little try Charlie.
Let's see.

It was a bleak September morning, out upon the ocean cold
When JP Jones's Bonny Dick was near to being holded
Up comes a saucy frigate all rigged in colors bright
A broadside she delivered & it near cost him his life.

Well she backed up her main top'sls & opened her main ports
She cried for him to drop his canvas & not to play for sport
He sheeted home all braces & had jibs hand hauled full tight
And pointed his bow chaser at this frigate in delight

Now the Bonny Dick was baring down upon this vessel hard
Haul down your colors bold or I'll bend you o're the bar
For quater oh for quater she lowed her main stays
And she was boarded proper & welcomed & settled in her ways.

I may get to work on this one, there might be some potential here.
It needs a supporting chorus, something sexy. I'll have to sleep on this one, & dream a little dream. HaHa. Hope I can remember the tune that I put to it.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 12:56 AM

A very hard fought battle. Sounds like both Jones and Pearson (the British captain) gave it their utmost.

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 08:43 PM

Barry-

If you raise that question, you at least owe us a verse.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 08:25 PM

Nice theard & interseting too. BUT!
Was someone looking for the "Bonny Dick"?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 08:14 AM

Second that, Les. Wonderful link, I ended up a half hour late for an appointment yesterday, because I started wandering around and reading because of that link. Great stuff!

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 08:04 AM

Les-

Thanks for the link! Some very interesting details.

I've been relying on one of my long time favorite reference books WE BUILD A NAVY by Holloway Frost, U.S. Naval Institute, 1940.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 03:17 PM

Charley - here's the best account I've found on the 'net, with the actual words of both Jones and Pearson click 'ere matey!.

Altogether a confused battle. It also appears that Jones had two privateers with him but not the brig Cerf.

Serapis was accidenly burnt in French Navy service in 1781. I imagine that the sloop Countess of Scarborough was sold into mercantile service, becoming again what she was originally.

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 01:11 PM

Les-

Thanks for the additional details about Capt. John Paul Jone's squadron. You are largely correct that most of his fleet were French vessels. However, the largest frigate (36 guns) was the Alliance which was American built and survived the Revolutionary War without being captured by the British; unfortunately in this battle she was captained by a French officer who was jealous of Jones and actually did more damage to Jones' ship (raked her with broadsides 3 times) than to the British ships when he finally engaged in the battle. Jones was not pleased with Capt. Pierre Landais, as you might imagine, and subsequently relieved him of command.

After the battle the French government took over the dearly won prizes, the Serapis and the Scarborough.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:16 PM

I understand (from various sources) that they've found a possible wreck which may be the right one, and they're going to come back next year if they've been able to get the funding they need.

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 11:08 PM

W.e.l.l. ... The New Scientist doesn't even offer to sell you a subscription if you're in the US. (sniff, sniff).

A background artcle from BBC probably describes the kickoff of this same search, but appears to be about a year old so no results.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 07:08 PM

That would be Jones himself, LH!

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 07:00 PM

Whatever Jones was, he clearly had a good publicist. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 06:37 PM

Charley - My new edition of 'Colledge - Ships of the Royal Navy' gives 'French Navy' for the fate of Serapis. So does Lyon's 'Sailing Navy List'. And, in spite of my comments earlier, a replacement Serapis of the same class was ordered and built for the Royal Navy. The second Serapis was not much used in the next war, though - soon reduced to storeship, convalescent ship and then floating battery.

The original Serapis was only six months old when she was captured. Another sister ship, the Romulus was taken by a superior French force (a 64 and two frigates) and served for five years in the French Navy as La Resolution.

A number of 44-gun ships were built for the American Revoluntionary War. It was considered that the Americans would not have line of battle ships available, so the Royal Navy built 44s as they could (hopefully) deal with anything they would have to face, they were cheaper and could work further inshore. Of course, then the French Spanish and Dutch joined in...

Jones - the 'Father of the American Navy' was somewhat defeated in the more naval side of the Battle of Flamborough Head. His ships, which included two French frigates and two smaller vessels, failed to capture any of the convoy that they were attacking. His flagship was sunk, quite unusual in those days. The Serapis' consort, a converted merchant ship was captured by a regular French frigate. Jones won the day by small arms fire and boarding from a larger crew, with the knowledge of at least two French frigates in support - though Jones dismisses those.

But then, of course, over this side of the Pond we tend to regard Jones as a renegade and a braggart, not like that nice Benedict Arnold!

Incidently, Flamborough Head is only about 30 miles from me. The local pronounciation is 'Flambrer'.
Les

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 10:38 PM

I was under the impression that Serapis sank before reaching port.

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Naemanson
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 07:14 PM

Caution! Thread Drift!

My father is building a model of the Fair Rosamond. My sister went on-line to find some info for him and stumbled across the following web site: CLICK HERE

The site includes a catalog of Royal Navy ships. She only meant to print out the page with Fair Rosamond on it but inadvertently printed the list of all the ships from Fair Rosamond to Fury... all 34 pages!

Check it out.

We now take you back to your regularly scheduled thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:49 PM

The problems in finding the right wreck (unless they can find approprate artifacts) are that no one knows much about the ship. She was a former French Indiaman, but references to her dimensions are references to ships that were thought to be similar. And there is no shortage of wrecks around Flamborough Head.

I'll see what I can find out about Serapis, but she was a class of ship that the French didn't really want and she was pretty beaten up in the action.

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:18 PM

To be fair there are other versions of this story that can be found by Googling "Bonhomme Richard" found wreck. I will be looking forward to the rest of the story.

Whatever happened to the HMS Serapis after John Paul Jones turned her over to the French?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 03:33 PM

It is pretty fascinating though. An actual connection to John Paul Jones at this late date--maybe. We shall see... The songs we've saved and sung are very often the only link to those dramatic heroics from other times. It does get the juices flowing to think of it!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 03:26 PM

Interesting but I don't want to subscribe to New Scientist to find out the rest of the story.

Charley Noble

Subject: BS: Bonhomme Richard found?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:47 PM

The wreck of John Paul Jones' ship may have been found, according to this article.
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19225795.900-homing-in-on-a-us-naval-legend.html

The magazine carries a striking sonar picture of a wreck, but too well defined in shape I would guess to be so old a wooden ship.
keith.