BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 08:36 PM

This "cats killing birds" springs up about every 15 years. Last I checked there are still plenty of birds.

Just another slow newsday.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 07:24 PM

Cluin -

A treaty between Mexico, the US, and Canada a few years back placed crows in the "migratory bird" category, making it illegal to kill them in the US (pending the establishing of Federal "migratory bird hunting seasons?). All migratory fowl in the US are regulated by the Feds, to avoid an individual state setting "harvest" limits that might impact bird populations.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Greg B
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 11:27 AM

There's another reason to restrain the feline from hunting
in the garden--- they can catch all manner of nasty, and
in some cases incurable diseases and parasites from their
prey.

The least (but most inevitable) of these is worms in the
digestive tract. The worst are some neurological conditions.

Raw mouse, squirrel, rabbit, mole, etc., isn't very good for
them.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 09:47 AM

But without predation by cats......the population of pigeons, rats, mice, etc., and get out of hand too.

Whew.

So, before the Cat was domesticated- and then turned loose to roam freely- the world was literally inundated with rodents. Bet all them natural predators threw the domestic cats a big thank-you party for showing up & bringing the situation back under control.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 04:26 AM

Crows are migratory? They're here all friggin' winter.

Of course, so are the ducks and geese now.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 02:02 AM

This obviously (to me at least) another of those things where many people are looking for THE RIGHT ANSWER when there are many different circumstances, each requiring different answers; and where the "right" answers in one situation are often quit disatrously WRONG in others.

One factor, offered for consideration, is that many experienced "animal persons" assert that kittens who are not brought live prey by the mother almost never learn to be effective hunters. It's difficult in many circumstances to know whether a kitten was "taught by mommy" when pets are obtained from unknown sources; but some breeders, and many "housepet owners" do have a tendency to sequester mother and kittens at least for and immediately after birth. My own observation is that there is some truth to the assertion that kittens so raised will seldom be effective hunters but may be somewhat more inclined to catch prey, perhaps by accident, to "play with" and less likely to consume what they catch.

Urban pets are likely to be included in the "interested but incompetent" category as hunters (good prospects for management jobs?). They probably should not compete much with wild predators, as the few wild ones likely to be found in urban areas are of kinds that have learned to associate with humans and are reasonably successful in that environment.

Barnyard kittens may be expected to have gotten the lessons from the mother cat, and are quite likely to be efficient and effective hunters. They also are more likely to have access to areas where wild prey is more accessible. If numbers are kept to reasonable levels, the kinds of prey they're most likely to seek and catch are mostly the "varmints" that farmers need help with controlling.

Feral, or "semi-wild" country cats probably are the ones most likely to have a significant impact on wild populations, and particularly on "game" populations. Predation on game birds, many of which do nest on the ground, can be quite severe; although most of the destruction comes from destruction of eggs and/or hatchlings still in the nest.

Even large-adult-feral-hunter-cats are unlikely to be able to kill many adult rabbits, and fewer still can successfully catch and kill an adult squirrel; but they may be able to drive the adult away from a nest and kill all the babies in either case.

The recommendation of game wardens in my area has been, for several decades, that any cat "50 yards from the farmhouse¹" should be shot if it can be done safely, since they are destructive of game bird populations due to predation on nesting birds (and the most popular of the game birds in the area are ground nesters). For comparison, the same game authorities will tell you to "ask the farmer" about other kinds of "varmints." Some farmers like their skunk populations and others seem to prefer that one leaves the 'possums alone. Most farmers I've met would prefer it if you could shoot the crows, but since they're "migratory birds" that's illegal.

¹ It's generally illegal to discharge a hunting gun within 50 yards of an occupiable structure, so they're saying if you can, shoot.

These anectdotes contribute little to explaining any particular situation, but my point is simply that there is no "one-size-fits-all" problem, much less a single "solution."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 01:21 AM

and also the barred owl.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 01:02 AM

and the moose.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:18 AM

As did the Whitetail Deer.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:18 AM

Coyotes, too, have vastly expanded their former natural range.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: mrdux
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:03 AM

rags --

Apparently the species breakdown isn't posted online. I'll see if they have that data.

re: cats as beneficial predators, this, again, from Portland Audubon:
"In fact there is nothing natural about cats. They are a domestic animal that exists at much higher numbers than any native predator species. They do not face the same ecological controls that quickly bring other species into balance and in situations where cats do face natural controls such as coyote predation, many cat owners issue a quick to call for removal of the threat."

michael

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Rowan
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 09:43 PM

I suppose we all think, at some time or other, that our part of the world can be generalised, without any qualification, to all other parts but

"It is not always a negative thing when cats prey on birds, lizards, rodents, etc."

finally managed to pull me out of 'lurker' status on this thread.

I've yet to see a situation in Australia where the quoted statement has any truth at all. Ditto New Zealand.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Genie
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 07:27 PM

Ron: "It is hypocritical to say that you are for animal rights, saving ecosystems and perpetuating species, and then allow free-roaming cats."

"Ecosystems," that's the key.   It sounds like there are areas where the feral (or outdoor) cat population has gotten too large for the preservation of some diminishing species of birds or other small animals.   But without predation by cats, avian raptors, etc., the population of pigeons, rats, mice, etc., and get out of hand too.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, we've celebrated bringing the Peregrine falcon back from the brink of extinction, though this raptor will take its toll on the populations of many other species.    Similarly, with wolves removed from so much of the US, the deer population tends to grow too large and many deer end up perishing from starvation (not to mention playing chicken with automobiles).   Sometimes the predators provide a valuable function in stabilizing the numbers of their prey.   When the prey become a threatened species, the predators become a problem and their numbers need to be curtailed.

It is not always a negative thing when cats prey on birds, lizards, rodents, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 06:24 PM

Cats always look at us that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Greg B
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 06:06 PM

Okay, I was just totally unable to find the cat.

Went up and down stairs, calling, rattled the food bowl, looked
under and on top of everything to no avail.

Opened every closet, looked in every bathtub and shower stall
(he is a recreational drinker).

I don't know what made me open the carry-on suitcase in the
bedroom, but there he was, fast asleep. He'd lifted the lid,
crawled in, and let it close on himself.

Looked at me like I was some kind of idiot when I found him.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 06:05 PM

Cats - your 12.31 post yesterday was a wind-up, wasn't it? There are laps and laps, you know.....

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 04:38 PM

We have three cats, two of whom go outside. Number three is very old and creaky, and now prefers the sofa.

None of our cats hunt -- as ex-strays, I imagine they've been there and done that -- and typically they stay out for, at most, an hour at a time. During the summer, that time is spent under the leaves of the hosta or rhubarb plants in the garden; in the winter, it's a quick dash around the perimeter and then back in. The big, domineering tom goes out to check on incursions into his territory; if we're slow opening the door he pisses on it. The little old female goes out to establish that the outside is still there.

This system works well because we live in a quiet enclave, and because they go out only when we are at home and awake; we call them in before going to bed or leaving the house. Yes, they come when we call; it's not hard to train a cat if you make it worth his while.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 12:46 PM

By the way Jon, there is more chance of having a stress-out cat when they are outdoors. Here is an interesting article - www.maxshouse.com

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 12:43 PM

You are right there. No drugs for stress.

Keeping a cat stimulated can be accomplished with toys, playing and having a second cat for company. We now have 3 cats in our home, and I do not see signs of stress.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Greg B
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 12:42 PM

Having more than one cat indoors is a good way to keep them
from going nuts. If one comes in as a kitten to an adult cat,
you probably won't have a serious problem over pecking order,
and the adult will probably 'adopt' the kitten.

One of our cats tends to spend a lot of time with me alone
at my place (he likes to ride in the car anyway) and he is
a lot more 'needy' of human companionship when he's away
from the three other felines. In the 'pride' he's the 'top cat,'
and a bit more aloof from people. Away from them, he wants
lots of attention and play from his humans.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 12:07 PM

The best I find is a "may" on the boredom/stress score, Ron.

The one thing I am certain over is that I would let a cat out sooner than have it on "anti-stress" drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 11:55 AM

Thanks for the link Jon. It does help me understand the cultural portions of the difference. It is interesting to note that the general thrust of the article seems to show the benefits of indoor life. It is a good step in showing people on your side of the pond.

As for the "negative" aspects, it is worth noting that all of them can be overcome with the help of a thoughtful owner. The boredom can be reversed and instinct to hunt can be satisfied without having to resort to letting the cat roam free.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Greg B
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 11:21 AM

Feline apologists aside notwithstanding, if you (as we do)
acquire your moggies by rescuing them from the (R)SPCA or
elsewhere, chances are they will have lived 'rough' at some
point, and thus learned to hunt. The 'right thinkers' will
tell us that this is the 'proper' way to acquire pets, versus
at a pet store or breeder.

Two of the four cats in our life came from the SPCA, and the
other two were feral-born at a barn and requested us to bring
them home at about three months of age.

All are gentle, grateful, affectionate (sometimes overly so),
and very grateful indoor companion cats. They never, ever,
are deliberately allowed to go outdoors, and at least two
of them are now afraid of 'the world.' One of them enjoys
going out for a swim in the pool on a very warm summer day
(polydactyl (full thumbs) Maine Coon Cat tiger).

All are unrepentant, unapologetic, recreational murderers and
mutilators of any creature from bugs to mice that might invade
their space, which they then present to their benefactors.

The remaining barn cats are (mostly, when we can catch them)
spayed or neutered, and then fed. They continue to present us
with their 'catches.' We rarely see feathers, but disemboweled
mice and moles occur at least weekly.

The mouse police never sleeps.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 10:39 AM

but cats are threatened too.

Domestic cats an endangered species? Now, THAT has to be the most idiotic statement I've heard in many a year.

How many you want? Go to any animal shelter in the world- they are gassed in the thousands- perhaps millions- anually because they are vastly overpopulated. Same for dogs.

Didn't the Europeans forego their attempted annihilation of small felines and start encouraging their proliferation because of the bubonic plague being spread so wildly by rats and mice?

No, they did not. The link between yersinia pestis & the rat flea wasn't established until the very end of the 19th century.

Greg, if the wilde beasties higher on the food chain...

Ah, but then felix domesticus are NOT "wilde beasties", they're domestic animals, like cows, pigs & chickens. Just because some irresponsible human failed to get Moggie spayed or neutered & their progeny became "wilde", or allowed Moggie to run "wilde" or abandoned him/her doesn't create a "wilde beastie".

In some areas, feral cats are worse plague than rodents could ever be, and should be turned over to the same exterminator to deal with.

The REAL wilde beasties higher on the food chain- hawks, owls, weasels, stoats, etc. do a more than adequate job of keeping the wild rodent populations in check.

If one has a problem INDOORS with rattus rattus, rattus norvegicus or mus musculus Moggie needs to be indoors anyway to be effective.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 10:29 AM

"Let themselves in and out as they please", but encouraged to stay in at night.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 10:27 AM

OK Ron, I still think it will go nowhere but I will give you a few personal feelings based on my own experience with cats.

Firstly I am against the roaming feral or "semi feral" - some are fed by humans - cat populations that exist round farms near here. I have no idea about ecological damage but according to vets we have spoken to, the cats tend not to be very healthy because of inbreeding. As far as I understand it, there are schems around to neuter these animals.

Our current 3 cats (and most past ones) come from that sort of stock and they have, even if young, known outdoors and want to go outside. They are free to let themselves in and out as they please. I can not accept such animals would ever be contented indoors only and do not believe thier presence outside does any real damage - wish they did with the rat poulation here...

As for a cat that's never been outside, my feeling is they would still want to go outside but I do concede I have never met an indoor only cat to have a personal idea whether they get stressed or not but the first site I look at does suggest they might well do.

http://www.fabcats.org/inorout.html.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 10:08 AM

I'm sorry Jon, I am not trying to be combative nor am I trying to "have it my way". There are a lot of eye-opening facts out there which we cannot allow ourselves to shut out just because of culture or tradition.   

Medicine used to treat symptoms like headaches with leeches. While there is some reason behind the practice, we have learned better ways.   You brought up the death penalty. That was accepted practice in just about every culture in the past. Through evolution we have learned. Hopefully it will change again here in the U.S.   The point is we can't back away from debate or allowing ourselves to learn. If you can show me good evidence that there is benefits from allowing cats to roam free, I will reconsider what I've learned.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 09:59 AM

Have it your own way Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 09:57 AM

Sorry Jon, but it is not as simple as you make it out to be.

It is more than just culture - it is education. You can throw in the death penalty and gun culture, which I agree are wrong, but smokescreens do not hide the facts in this case. Allowing free-roaming cats goes against everything we've learned. Please show me medical evidence that says it is alright to let cats roam free - and please find something from the 21st century.

It is hypocritical to say that you are for animal rights, saving ecosystems and perpetuating species, and then allow free-roaming cats.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 09:52 AM

No Ron, it is simply as I said. this one is about as good as what is folk. Or perhaps if you want something else culture wise we are divided on, go for guns or maybe the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 09:48 AM

Sorry Jon, but it appears you are not looking at all the facts if that is your attitude. It deserves to have heated debates if people are going to shut out opposing points of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 09:44 AM

No Ron, I would say it's the US who are wrong...

It's a waste of time debating it. I've seen it too often and the most it usualy provides is heated arguments,

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 09:28 AM

"The indoor vs outdoor thing with cats seems to be largely a cultral thing which crops up from time to time"

It is cultural, and it is a question of education. People do things by routine or tradition without questioning. In Europe, there seems to be little interest in the studies that have shown the dangers and harm that free-roaming cats face and can cause.

To say that it is a question of "instinct" or that they are natural born predators is simply bunk. So are human beings. Should it be suggested that people abandon their homes and roam the countryside in search of food?   It would sure appeal to our natural instincts, but it ignores evolution.

Cats have evolved, like it or not. Domestication has changed the animal.

I'm sorry that this thread drifted, I do realize that it was about cats and birds - but there are bigger issues that are being ignored.   It is great that people are worried about declining bird populations, but cats are threatened too.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Bagpuss
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 08:21 AM

We had a cat when I was young who was out a lot of the time. I think the only thing endangered by him was the nerves of the local dogs. Our Sammy used to sit on a tree branch, wait for a dog to pass beneath him, and then jump out on top of them!

He was a bit of a psycho cat!

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: ragdall
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 08:08 AM

I think you are right, Jon.

Much of cat outdoor wellbeing depends on the location.
People whose doors open out onto motorways are wise to keep their cats indoors.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 06:54 AM

We have 3 outdoor cats (and bird feeders, Sinsull) and our bird population seems very healthy to me.

The indoor vs outdoor thing with cats seems to be largely a cultral thing which crops up from time to time. Most US people seem to argue indoors and UK outdoors.

Our own cats which found us were "semi-feral" anyway and they get stressed if they are not allowed out.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 06:26 AM

I have a feeling this is going to vary very strongly between areas, and between cats.

We have a cat who only takes the occasional rabbit, and nothing more. She even leaves the several pairs of assorted water fowl nesting 20 yards away alone. She is happy and healthy at least 15 years old as a cat who spends most of her time outside.


And for Europe, cats are native. The European wild cat has been driven virtually to extinction by interbreeding with domestic cats. I don't know about the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: ragdall
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 04:57 AM

Another significant cause of songbird mortality is towers. Towers are particularly deadly to nocturnally migrating species.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service states that four to five million birds are killed each year by towers, many of those killed are members of species which are in danger.

Loss of migratory birds at communication towers is estimated at 4-5 million annually. Potentially impacted resources include 90 bird species which are threatened or endangered and 124 non-game species of management concern.

http://www.fws.gov/habitatconservation/communicationtowers.htm or click here

The American Bird Conservancy has an interesting and informative pdf file on their site, Communication Towers: A Deadly Hazard To Birds A Report Compiled by American Bird Conservancy Documenting The Killing of 230 Bird Species, dated June 2000.

The report is based on data collected from 46 locations in the mid to eastern United States and one in Canada. It includes lots of purty graphs which present a visual comparison of the species documented. http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkillweb.pdf
*Do not click on this link if you have a slow connection.

Thanks,
rags

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: ragdall
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 03:54 AM

The following is from the NPR site that Desert Dancer provided:

Morning Edition, January 3, 2006.
No one knows what birds see when they look out at the world, says ornithologist Daniel Klem, but he's sure they don't see glass. He estimates that at least 1 billion birds are killed by flying into windows every year in the United States.
LINK

Compare that with, "Experts say outdoor cats may kill hundreds of millions of wild birds each year -- but they aren't exactly sure how many." From the same site.
(Emphasis added by rags).

My own experience was, that in the 18 years that my last cat lived, and in the ten years of his twin's life, in spite of all attempts I made to keep birds away from them, my windows killed many times more birds than my two cats ever did. The cats are long gone. The windows continue to kill.

( No, I am not advocating shooting windows.)

rags

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: ragdall
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 03:27 AM

mrdux,
Good article. Thank you for the link.

I'd be very interested to see a break down, by species and number, of the birds which were involved in those statistics. Do you know if that is available online?

Thanks,
rags

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: mrdux
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 02:41 AM

The statistics from our local (Portland, Oregon) Audubon Society wild animal clinic are pretty sobering: "On average more than 20% of the more than 3,000 animals brought to the Audubon Society of Portland Wildlife Care Center each year are the victims of direct cat predation. . . The survival rate for cat-caught wildlife is dismal. At our center the overall survival rate for all animals is more than 40% but for cat caught-animals it is only 14%. Because of the trauma and infection associated with cat bites, the reality is that most animals caught by cats are going to die." Here's the full article: Cats and Wildlife.

michael

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 01:10 AM

House cats are non-native predators. They are INDISCRIMINATE killers of almost anything of which they are bigger. They are one of the few animals that kill just for the pleasure of killing. I believe it was Readers' Digest which ran an article a number of years ago about some folks who followed a housecat in the Chicago area on which they put a radio collar. Within a month's time the cat had killed almost 700 birds plus mice and other small creatures.

I personally witnessed my grandmother's adopted cat leap at least two feet into the air and snatch down a Valley Quail on the wing. This after being told that her cat wouldn't harm a thing.

I live in the country and we have two beatiful ponds, one about 7 acres the other about 10 acres, nearby. When we first moved here the ponds teemed with ducks and other waterfowl of all kinds. We'd also get the migratory birds in their season. There were river otters that would occasionally come in to feed on the fish I planted (which I wasn't too thrilled about) but they would only stay a few days and then move on.

Then we got a new neighbor who established a hobby ranch for horses and she happened to have seven or eight cats. This was in the spring and the baby ducks began to disappear. Then all the ducks disappeared. Any migratory birds that stop by are here only a short while. No more otters. The impact that these cats have had on this area is incredible. Said neighbor became highly indignant when told of the depredation her cats caused. She hasn't spoken to me personally now for over fifteen years, still pissed that I would blame her precious cats of such crimes.

If you have cats, keep them at home. Keeping them well fed is NOT the answers as they DO kill for the pleasure of it. I can see keeping a mouser or two on a farm. That makes sense but for the sake of all small wildlife control your cats and keep them at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 12:35 AM

The NPR segment stated pretty clearly that there are not good data either way; it was about someone who's trying to get the word out for a research project to collect information for a nationwide "body count".

The NPR story is here, with links to the American Bird Conservancy and the Predator Watch project.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: ragdall
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 12:22 AM

The thread is about bird species being pushed towards extinction because of housecats who are allowed to roam, not about the welfare of cats.   

"Cats can catch only the birds which come close to the ground to feed, or nest. There are precious few bird species in urban areas which do that."

What nonsense! Do some research.

I actually did a fair bit of research, for a university paper, into claims such as those of the OP in this thread. As you have apparently done research, as well, please share your findings with us? Which bird species are being pushed to extiction by housecats? I'm interested in hearing about any data you have.

Thanks,
rags

Subject: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Genie
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 12:20 AM

You're right, leneeia, cats roaming free face many dangers to their own health and welfare.
(Some of those dangers are especially prevalent in urban areas, but even in rural areas there are some.)   I think those may be more the issue than the decline of bird populations, except in sensitive regions were some species of birds are threatened with extinction and also preyed upon by cats.    I still think the urban cats, as well as farm cats, provide valuable services to humans.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 11:55 PM

"Cats can catch only the birds which come close to the ground to feed, or nest. There are precious few bird species in urban areas which do that."

What nonsense! Do some research.

Another reason to keep a cat indoors is its own welfare. Cats outdoors get:

mauled by dogs and other cats
hit by cars
lost
stuck in high trees. It's not funny.
exposed to diseases such as giardia and feline leukemia
tapeworms from eating mice
bring fleas into the home.
kidney disease from lack of water.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 11:02 PM

The report that was posted early has some very old data. I'm not sure if reports of 10, 20 or even older articles really apply to 2007. More and more people are realizing how dangerous it is to allow free-ranging cats. We've learned more about the dangers and the downfalls. I would be surprised to find any animal specialist that would recommend allowing cats to roam free.

Many of the cats that you find roaming this area are actually homeless strays who have no other choice.   Debating whether or not it is morally correct to allow cats to hunt birds and other animals is not the real issue. If you honestly think that cats are the main culprits in the decline of a bird population, you are allowing yourself to be ignorant of all the other issues that have added to the problem.

I do understand that free roaming cats are more prevelant in the UK than they are in the U.S. Perhaps they will catch up to us with some education.

I truly believe it is more important to realize the cruelty that is involved in allowing a cat to live a free-range lifestyle in this day and age. While it may have been the norm to allow cats to roam free in the past. People would also bathe once a week in those days and that is one tradition that I would not recommend keeping alive either.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 10:44 PM

Yes, Cluin. Didn't the Europeans forego their attempted annihilation of small felines and start encouraging their proliferation because of the bubonic plague being spread so wildly by rats and mice?


Greg, if the wilde beasties higher on the food chain were not taking their share of the small rodent population, do you really think human society would just let the little critters run rampant and live long, healthy lives? I don't know that being devoured by a cat is as horrible a death as succumbing to rat poison.   

BTW, the death of predators in nature is often slow and anguished, by starvation.   The prey usually die more quickly.

In any event, it's not always a matter of OUR ranking wild animals in order of their value.   Nature tends to establish the food chain largely on her own terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 10:26 PM

Some animals become pests, though. That's why we started keeping cats in the first place.

Or is that the cats have been keeping us?

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 09:19 PM

I was grateful when he moved on to mice, voles, and even an occasional bird. He prefers squirrels and chipmunks....

I suspect the Mice, Voles, Birds, Chipmunks and Squirrels are somewhat less grateful.

Its really very annoying when purported "animal lovers" rank animals' lives in some sort of value hierarchy according to species.

Its also blatantly hypocritical & self-serving.

"Companion Animal" my arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: ragdall
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 08:07 PM

Cats are naturally nocturnal. Feral cats tend to be so in order to avoid enermies, such as humans. Cats which hunt at night catch rodents, not diurnal birds. If they are near human habitation, they eat garbage, often ingesting items which are considered inedible, such as a blood-soaked string from a pot roast, or packaging material from meat.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 05:30 PM

The feral (and stray) cats that have to depend on birds and small mammals for food are also a major control on the rodent and pigeon populations.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: SharonA
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 03:31 PM

What Ron Olesko said.

As an addendum to that, extra grooming won't take care of all parasites that can be picked up by pet cats allowed outdoors. If they eat prey infested with worms, they too will become infested and the worms will drop from their butts -- all over the house! (This is one of the less pleasant memories of my childhood!) So one incurs the added expense of worm medication, and perhaps extra trips to the vet.

My parents let their pet cats go in and out, and I went through the experience of losing several childhood pets to disappearance as well as an early death presumably from a car collision, and dealing with their injuries from fights with neighbors' cats. One cat disappeared for several days and came home with a broken hip (we never learned why -- kicked by a horse? Abused by teens?) which required months of recuperation and left him unable to spread his legs when washing himself. Then there were the female cats my parents refused to spray (though they had their male cats neutered), so I watched many, many litters of kittens get taken away to the SPCA where I'm sure most were euthanized. There are so many reasons to keep kitty inside besides the prey-preservation factor.

There are sacrifices to be made if one keeps a cat indoors 24/7: one must either clip the cat's claws, take the drastic step of declawing it (not recommended!), or resign oneself to having to take the cat into consideration when decorating -- getting vertical blinds instead of curtains, adding scratching posts to the feng shui (and training your cat to use them!) and treating sofas with repellant lest they become scratching posts also. To me, it's worth working around the cat's needs and keeping her indoors. Fortunately, she loves destroying her scratching posts and, for the most part, leaves the people-furniture alone!

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 02:01 PM

Personally, I think the bird problem is a non-issue. As you pointed out Bill D, they seldom get the bird.

I realize that this thread was not meant to be a debate between indoor vs. outdoor, and I apologize for drifting. I am just very concerned when I see outdoor cats splattered on the side of the road because they were too busy chasing a bug to see the car coming at them.   I watched an outdoor cat in our neighborhood slip away and die because of some disease they picked up. I hope those of you who have outdoor cats take the time to check for ticks and other parasites they can pick up outdoors. I hope you will give the extra grooming that is required.   I also hope that you will consider the many dangers the cat faces outdoors and the stress it puts on them.

I will stop now. Sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 01:53 PM

Well fed cats who also sometimes go 'out' are not a serious threat to birds. They are opportunists whose instincts might do in an occasional careless bird, but they aren't normally out there hunting.

Now, in a situation where there are large numbers of feral cats, I'd not want to build a nest....but that's not very common in urban areas.

As we see, there are some serious differences of opinion about supposed 'studies'....my suspicion is that there is a large amount of emotional layering in this issue, both among cat fanciers AND among bird lovers.

(We had cats for years, mostly ones who went out....and VERY seldom had one actually get a bird.)

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Becca72
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 01:50 PM

I agree with Ron 110%

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 01:48 PM

The occasional bird killed by a well-fed domesticated cat is probably not an issue. It's the feral cats who have to depend upon birds and other small animals as their principle food source that are the problem.

When some jerk takes an unwanted cat out to the middle of nowhere and tuns it loose, either the cat's going to die or a fair amount of wildlife is going to die. There's no middle ground. Cats don't eat grass.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 12:48 PM

I don't believe that cats should be allowed to roam freely outdoors. As Rapaire pointed out, cats are carnivores - but that doesn't mean you are stifling their behavior by keeping them indoors. Cat toys, playing with your cat, and even moving their food can help stimulate their instincts and keep them from becoming bored.

Whether or not cats are diminishing bird population is not the big issue.   Cats are under tremendous stress outdoors - fighting for territory from other cats as well as animals, danger to cars and humans, etc. They have more opportunity to be exposed to disease and injury and you will shorten their potential lifespan by keeping them outdoors.

Just as humans have learned to move out of caves and hunt their own food, cats have adapted to modern times. There is plenty of stimulation indoors. I highly recommend having at least two cats.

Save a bird and save your cat - keep indoors!

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Cats
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 12:31 PM

I'm sure Kitty would love to sit on peoples laps!

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: mack/misophist
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 10:21 AM

The town I live in is pretty well forested by urban standards. Also pretty well catted. There's no shortage of pigeons, blackbirds, crows, or sea gulls. Sitting at home I often hear doves and the occasional owl. Hummingbirds frequent the back yard and raptors are relatively common down town. Once I think I saw a really huge raven. So what's the problem? We also have wild flocks of parakeets and parrots. This is San Francisco, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Bee
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 09:15 AM

That Wisconsin study has problems, as do many other such attempts to demonize Kitty. The math gets very fuzzy. I'll find more later, no time now, but here's a start.

http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 09:12 AM

My Freddie is my only hunter. It was interesting to watch. He started as a young Tom by hunting blood worms - big, nasty, slimy ones. He brought them home in triumph and devoured them in front of me.
I was grateful when he moved on to mice, voles, and even an occasional bird. He prefers squirrels and chipmunks, I suspect because they are the hardest to catch.
I have no bird feeders - that just wouldn't be fair. And my neighbor lets her dogs loose when she sees Freddie sitting under her feeders. My biggest concern is disease. The birds he catches are either stupid or sick and that worries me.

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 09:06 AM

Too many people don't want to believe that pussy (and puppy, for that matter) are descended from, and remain, predacious carnivores.

Thanks again, Walt Disney et al.!

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: Bagpuss
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 08:48 AM

I googled and found this article which seems to mention some of the same statistics - and references its sources:

http://wildlife.wisc.edu/extension/catfly3.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: ragdall
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 08:37 AM

Did it cite the research on which those figures are based?

Which of the species that are being pushed towards extinction did the cats in the study kill?

I think you'll find that pesticides, urbanization and destruction of habitat have done more damage to bird species than housecats every could. Cats can catch only the birds which come close to the ground to feed, or nest. There are precious few bird species in urban areas which do that.

Subject: BS: Purty Kitty; Deadly Kitty
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 08:19 AM

There was a piece on NPR the other day about how housecats who are allowed to roam are endangering the wild bird population. One cat can kill as many as 1000 birds. And many species are being pushed towards extinction. Kitty should stay inside and on your lap.