BS: The Dark Knight

Subject: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 10:28 PM

Has anyone else seen the new Batman movie, The Dark Knight?
I saw it this afternoon.
Heath Ledger's performance was very effective.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:23 PM

My son is in the theater as I type. Ever since The Sixth Sense scared the bejesus out of him (in elementary school) he has been one to read reviews. I don't know if he did this time, but at 16, I imagine he can handle the content. I will have him read a few reviews and see which he agrees with.

I heard this is a very dark film, not cartoonish like the earlier files by a different director, etc. They said it is very dark, rather depressed. Do you agree? (This was on Fresh Air.)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:25 PM

The first Batman film was a very dark film as far as I was concerned. There wasn't much to like about it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

I did not think it was any more depressing or violent than the other Batman films, but Ledger's acting as the Joker brought out the realism of a vicious mind rather than the cartoon type of Joker played by Nicholson. Heath Ledger became this tortured and torturing soul.
I cover my eyes when I know something might be more graphic than I want to hold in my memory.

In comparison, I thought Sophie's Choice was darker and more depressing than this film. With Batman, you always sense the cartoon good guys will prevail in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:33 PM

If you like chase scenes, the scene where a large semi truck goes end to end... well, I won't spoil it for you. If you go to the movies for chase scenes, you won't be disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:58 PM

This reviewer summed up Ledger's performance:

It's an astonishing performance, as extravagant and free ("deranged" might be a better word) as his Ennis Del Mar in "Brokeback Mountain" was inhibited and tongue-tied. -Tom Charity, CNN

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:32 AM

I thought Batman Begins was darker. This one is just another action romp, albeit a very good one. The Joker is evil to the bone. Too evil to be seriously dark.
A very enjoyable movie. Bloody loud though.

BTW, did anyone else see any Tom Waits in Heath Ledger's Joker? I wondered if he hadn't used Waits in the same way Johnny Depp used Keef Richard for Jack Sparrow.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:01 AM

I thought this was much darker than "Batman Begins" and closer to the spirit of the contemporary comic book version.

They did much more action scenes to this film because of complaints about a lack of action in Batman Begins, but the psychological drama that is taking place was fascinating.

Unlike a lot of films where the villan actually becomes likeable, Ledger created a character that made your skin crawl whenever he was on screen. You did not feel sorry for him.

What I also enjoyed was the fact that most of the stunts were NOT CGI effects. The director wanted to capture an essence of realism so when you see something blow up, it was actually blown up.

Brilliant movie!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:17 AM

It broke the dollar record for an opening weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:26 AM

While Ledger's performance was very good, I enjoyed Christian Bale's performance even more. I'd put him up there with Michael Keaton as an actor that can play a complex character with a lot of integrity, and who seems to get that these films are a reflection of the dark, foreboding, cartoonish nature of contemporary life in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Becca72
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:30 AM

I'm planning on seeing it this afternoon.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:39 AM

Be forewarned, there is far more gratuitous violence in this one, compared to the other Batman films--I agree with some of the critics on that, which is why I wouldn't put this one down to the best of all the Batman films. I still think Michael Keaton's original is the gold standard of this franchise.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:46 AM

Personally, I don't feel that the violence was "gratuitous" but important to the storyline. If you do not like violence in film, do not see this movie.

I enjoyed Michael Keaton's performance as Batman, but it was still too close to the camp version of the 1960's.   Christan Bale IS the Batman of contemporary comic books and conveys the conflicts and demons of the character better than any actor to put on a cape and cowl.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:01 AM

We disagree, Mr. Olesko.

I wasn't just speaking of the performance of the lead actors. I was also commenting on the director's visions for their films.

When Tim Burton attempted to do the darker, more true to the contemporary comic book versions, they fired him and Michael Keaton, and we ended up with (choke) Val Kilmer and George Clooney. The George Clooney film is, in my opinion, the closest to the camp version of the TV show.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:03 AM

It's an easy character to screw up. If you've read the books there are a lot of ways to interpret Batman. He's been camp - he's been dark. I'm looking forward to the film. If you'd told me as a kid that some of these movies would be made I wouldn't have believed it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:27 AM

I guess you are right DV... they certainly became campier with Kilmer & Clooney - but but I do think that Tim Burton's vision, while certainly darker that the Adam West TV image, was really not in sync with what was happening in the comic book at the time. The second Burton film in particular had the ridiculous Penguin character as even the Joker character in the first film was more clownish than criminal.   

I loved the Burton films though, as Wesley points out there have been many ways to interpret Batman. I think each director and actor as well as comic book author and artist add something different to the character.   A great folk hero!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:48 AM

IMHO Batman Begins was by far the best in the franchise. Mostly for the supporting cast, Freeman, Oldman and Caine elevate any movie that they are in. I look forward to seeing this new one on DVD.

I loved Butron's visuals but I did not like Keaton as Batman and Nicholson was a terrible Joker.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:12 PM

Jack - That's one "IMHO" that I can agree with totally.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM

I also totally agree with the current choice of Maggie over Katie.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:42 PM

The way Nicholson phoned in his Joker role is now the stuff of Hollywood legend. No disagreement from me on that point, though I didn't think it was near as bad as people have subsequently claimed.

I watched the film a couple weeks ago for the first time since I saw it in theatres way back when.

I think he and Burton made a decision to make the role far more cartoonish, when the right note for Nicholson as an actor probably would have been to play up the debauched angle. Nobody does debauched better than Jack. So I'm not convinced their vision of the role meshed well. But I'll say this, Jack phoning it in is still a million percent better than anything most the whippersnappers now involved in the franchise can do!

There are other reasons, in my opinion, why Nicholson's Joker can't be dismssed out of hand.

One, Mr. Nicholson the actor still holds a tremendous amount of street cred in the Hollywood crime genre, due to his characterization of Jake Gittes. I cannot think of any other character who has risen above that role in the genre.

Second, the main problem for the Batman worshipping public, as far as I can tell, is most of them weren't comfortable with Burton's vision for the film, and their reaction to that most often gets couched in terms of Nicholson. I loved that film, but I'm a huge Burton fan. I likely never would have seen the original Batman had he not been the director, because I'm not drawn to the comic crime genre at all.

But I'll tell you what--I recently saw Sweeney Todd. You want to see something seriously interesting about Burton the director, rent that & the Batman with Nicholson, and compare the cartoonish nature of both characters in those two films. I think Johnny Depp was possibly channeling Nicholson's Joker without realizing it when he did Sweeney Todd.

One other thing--Nicholson was interviewed by MTV about this film, and had some very interesting things to say about it--including he was furious because no one consulted him about the role of Joker. That's bad form in Old Hollywood etiquette, to be sure, and something I didn't know until I read the interview.

For those interested, here is an excerpt of what Nicholson had to say about this film from the interview:

MTV: What do you think of another actor, Heath Ledger, playing the Joker in next summer's "The Dark Knight"?

Nicholson: Let me be the way I'm not in interviews. I'm furious. I'm furious. [He laughs.] They never asked me about a sequel with the Joker. I know how to do that! Nobody ever asked me.

MTV: It was never brought up?

Nicholson: No. It's like, in any area, you can't believe the reasons things do or don't happen. Not asking me how to do the sequel is that kind of thing. Maybe it's not a mistake. Maybe it was the right thing, but to be candid, I'm furious.

MTV: I'm surprised to hear you sounding competitive about a role like that.

Nicholson: Well, the Joker comes from my childhood. That's how I got involved with it in the first place. It's a part I always thought I should play.

MTV: Will you see the new film?

Nicholson: I'm not inclined to watch it because of what I said. But if it's a good movie, I'll catch up with it somewhere. I don't think they ever really captured Tim Burton's spirit [since he stopped being involved]. They kind of drove the franchise into the ground. Tim Burton's a genius. He had the right take on it. That's why I did the movie. I did the movie based on a single conversation with him. We both come from the cartoon world originally. We had similar ideas. Tim said [the Joker] should have a humorous dark side to him. [Burton is] one of the great moviemakers. I think the world of him. He's the most unassuming man. And he doesn't feel pressure. That's what I love about him. Once he's in there, he's smiling making the movie. That's it!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:49 PM

Hmmm....Jack Nicholson's ego is showing again.....why would they consult him, when it is a completely different movie? Why should they?

Jack Nicholson is not an actor....he plays the same role in every film, and it gets tired.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:58 PM

As I said Amergin, Old Hollywood etiquette is the reason why they would consult him--as an elder.

It would be the equivalent of not acknowledging the elders of folk music. Many musicians choose not to acknowledge their musician elders too.

While my feelings about acknowledging one's creative elders, I unequivocally would disagree that Jack Nicholson plays the same role in every film.

Both Chinatown and Five Easy Pieces were masterpieces of filmmaking, largely due to his very different characters in both films.

Nicholson is certainly over-rated as a star or celebrity. But as an actor? Not the old stuff he did. I haven't seen much of his recent stuff. But those roles he did in those two films at least, have yet to be topped by any actor.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:01 PM

Above should have read 'while my feelings about acknowledging one's creative elder are pretty ambivalent...'

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:02 PM

Adam West was also pissed that they did not ask him when Michael Keaton was hired. That "old etiquette" is for the birds!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:20 PM

I just saw the Batman movie with Nicholson. What a dreadful mess. Nicholson was overdone but the Riddler - can't think of the actor's name - was idiotic. Three Stooges School of Acting graduates. I won't see the new one until it runs on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:25 PM

Did Nicholson consult with Caesar Romero?

It think the reason they didn't consult him was made clear in your post. Because he "phoned it in.

I think Amerigen has a point.
The Joker shouldn't at like a crazy lawyer on a motorcycle trip or a crazy Dad trying to hack up his family.

Jake Gittes was a great roll for Jack. The Joker was not.

On the other hand. I love Burton's movies. Big Fish was my favorite so far.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:34 PM

>>Nicholson was overdone but the Riddler - can't think of the actor's name - was idiotic. Three Stooges School of Acting graduates. I won't see the new one until it runs on TV.<<

I don't even remember the Riddler being in the movie! He must have been bad!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:46 PM

I believe SINSULL is perhaps confused.

Nicholson played the Joker in the 1989 Batman film that also starred Kim Basinger, with Michael Keaton as Batman and Burton directing.

The Riddler character appeared in the 1995 Batman Forever film, was portrayed by Jim Carrey. In that film, the director was Joel Schumacher, Batman was played by Val Kilmer.

The '95 film also has a very pathetic performance by the usually excellent Tommy Lee Jones.

But let's remember, none of these films are going to make the list of AFI's 100 best of all time, including this year's blockbuster.

People tend to applaud their own memories more than actually performances.

And memories are notoriously short lived.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:52 PM

>>But let's remember, none of these films are going to make the list of AFI's 100 best of all time, including this year's blockbuster.<<

I wouldn't be so sure as that. AFI likes big box office and big performances by stars and heath Leger is getting a ton of buzz.

I wouldn't be surprised by at least an Oscar for Heath.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:04 PM

I would be very surprised to see Heath get an Oscar. A nomination, maybe. But Bale is the better actor, and that was pretty plain to see in the film.

I'm not as enamored of the punk version of the Joker as many others seem to be. I think a lot of that is tied up in the celebrity death cult thing with Ledger, more than his actual performance.

It really doesn't matter what "Best 100 Films" list you use, this film still won't make most those lists.

You are competing (in this genre) with some heavy hitters like Baby Face or LA Confidential or Chinatown.

Sorry, but I just can't put this movie in that company.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:16 PM

I would have put it in the genre with the SF and fantasy movies. Even though I haven't seen it I doubt that it is as good as "the Wizard of Oz or Dr. Strangelove". All I'm saying is that there is a possibility it might get onto that list the next time is compiled.

If it is the biggest comic book movie of all time, which it could well be by the end of the year, it will get a serious look,

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:32 PM

Did I understand you correctly, Jack the Sailor, that you haven't yet seen The Dark Knight?

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:37 PM

It is impossible to compare apples and oranges, and we cannot see into the future, but I feel that the merits of The Dark Knight will garner awards and recognition on "lists" in the future. The performances of the entire cast was superb. Everyone brought their A game. The story was deeper than most films of the genre, and the psychological factors made it intriguing. It became more than just the makeup of a few individuals, the crowd reactions in certain scenes were riveting.

It is just a matter of opinion, but I have to agree with the incredible reviews that this film received. It is a work of art.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:43 PM

>>Did I understand you correctly, Jack the Sailor, that you haven't yet seen The Dark Knight?

I haven't, I said that very early in the thread. I'm just going by the reviews I have read and the my compulsive treading of the movie news in The LA Times.

I certainly do not pretend to judge of what is Oscar worthy. If it were up to me, Blade Runner would have won pretty much every category in 1983.

But the buzz is that Heath will be nominated and what is Hollywood but buzz? He could easily win on sympathy alone. If he is nominated, he won't be running against Bale. The Studio won't put them in the same category.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:48 PM

Yetm you feel qualified to comment on it?

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:52 PM

I have seen it and I feel qualified. My daughter has already seen it 3 times.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:00 PM

I believe this film will hold up really well among the lightweight "summer blockbuster" lists of films.

But I'm not sure it can stand the scrutiny of being compared to Citizen Kane, is all.

But I'll leave that sort of prophesizing to you film experts. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:04 PM

Yes. I feel qualified to make the comments I have made.

If you care to point out why I wouldn't be, I am interested in your clearly stated opinion on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:10 PM

Based on your belligerent, ill informed commentary in two threads today where I have participated, I don't hold you in high enough regard to care to point out anything to you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:25 PM

I have to say, in the last 25 years, I've rarely gone to the theater to see a movie. I went to this one with my son, who is about to graduate with a degree in film making. He saw it on opening night. He asked me if I'd go see it with him because it was such a well crafted film he didn't want me to miss it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:27 PM

So you are just going to stick with the snide remarks and unsupported insults? Why not? It seems to be working for you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:33 PM

Already, buzz about the next movie.

Angelina as Catwoman?

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:45 PM

Sorry - ditzier than usual. Tommy Lee Jones and Jim Carrey. I liked Nicholson as the Joker.

I'll go sit in the corner now...

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:47 PM

On the other hand, I fell sound asleep during the one with the penguins. That was in a movie theater.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:53 PM

I love DeVito but that movie stank.

But Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy was worse.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:03 PM

Poll at People magazine online right now, "Should Heath Ledger get an Oscar nomination for his role in The Dark Knight ?"
right now, the tally is 98% Yes

clicky

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:37 PM

That might well be true, Alice. But none of them vote in the Academy Award nominations, and it is unrealistic to paint the most recent weekend summer blockbuster opening's popularity (or lack thereof) as a "shoe in" for anything, from top summer box office of all time to awards nominations for the year's best.

Every couple of summers some film that nails the "summer blockbuster" formula, and breaks the opening weekend records. The won't make the film the highest grossing film of all time, or possibly even of the summer. No way of knowing that yet.

Don't forget, there have been indie sleepers that became blockbusters (like Blair Witch Project), documentary films that became blockbusters (Fahrenheit 9/11), and far more critically acclaimed films like The Matrix, which are on the top of most film critics' "Best Summer Blockbusters" lists.

So it is a bit premature, Monday after the opening weekend of a film with a celebrity death cult following, to be making predictions as to what role in film history this film will have.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:49 PM

>>So it is a bit premature, Monday after the opening weekend of a film with a celebrity death cult following, to be making predictions as to what role in film history this film will have.<<

But yet someone did..

>>But let's remember, none of these films are going to make the list of AFI's 100 best of all time, including this year's blockbuster.<<

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:21 PM

Not qualified. Haven't seen it yet. I've got it on my NetFlix queue for when it's released on DVD.

But—I've been a Batman fan since I was about eight years old. Preferred him to Superman, partly because Batman was not (contrary to popular belief) a Superhero. He was just a normal (!?) human being who spent his nights cruising the roof-tops and back alleys in a costume and mask, as a vigilante law enforcer, and as such, other than being a well-honed athlete, he had no super-powers or special advantages like Superman did. Until the "invention" of Kryptonite, Superman was just too invulnerable, which had become something of a problem (undercut the excitement from the possibility that Superman might actually lose!), and so it had to be introduced. Anyway, Batman was my costumed hero of choice.

I hated, loathed, and despised the 1960s Batman television show. They were mocking one of my boyhood heroes!

I had some real misgivings when the Tim Burton version came out and I learned that Michael Keaton (Beetlejuice, Mr. Mom) had been cast as Bruce Wayne/Batman, I thought Burton's propeller beanie must have screwed itself into his brain. What the hell was he thinking!??

But the visuals in the ads looked good, and I decided to see it. Barbara wasn't particularly interested, but Nora, a friend of ours who collects comic books and graphic novels wanted to see it with someone, so I went with her.

Nora and I had the same feeling about the casting of Keaton, but once the movie got under way, we both agreed that the casting—casting against type—was bloody brilliant! Keaton, we felt, really brought it off beautifully.

We both thought Nicholson was a snort, and his portrayal of the Joker was good, but he did camp it up a bit, and he wasn't quite the Joker that I remembered as a kid.

I saw the sequel, Batman Returns, with Keaton again as Batman, along with Danny DeVito as the Penguin and Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman. Once again, a pretty good job, I thought. Both the Penguin and Catwoman were a lot grittier than in the comic books, which was all to the good.

One role that shouldn't be forgotten in these two movies was that of Alfred Pennyworth, the Wayne family butler, played by veteran British actor Michael Gough. A sort of stalwart, steadying influence on the disturbed young man that he had raised after his parents had been killed. I especially like the touch in the first movie when Alfred, who thought Vicki Vale was just what Bruce Wayne needed to steady him and steer him into some kind of normal life, took it upon himself to usher her down into the bat cave while Bruce was sitting there at the computer—revealing Batman's true identity to her. And then, the subsequent conversation between the two of them ("Some people carry a briefcase to work. I wear a cape."). The indication here was that, unlike in the comic books, these characters might actually grow.

Maybe I got "Batmanned out," or something, but I couldn't summon enough interest to see the rest of the series, especially when Keaton was replace first with Val Kilmer and then George Clooney. From what I hear, I haven't missed much.

I saw Batman Begins on DVD, and franky, it was such a hodge-podge of speculative and highly detailed back-story and armchair psychoanalysis that I can't actually remember it very well. It certainly wasn't the Batman I grew up with. A friend loaned me the DVD, and I'm going to see if I can borrow it again. For the life of me, I can't remember much about it.

I'm really dubious of the current spate of back-stories on both Batman and Superman (the television series "Smallville," each episode of which a friend of mine insists on recounting to me in minute detail!). I sometimes wonder if this is yet another symptom of creative atrophy in the movie and television industry and an apparent inability to come up with original stories about new characters. Another symptom is the plague of re-makes of classic movies of yesteryear.

If I hear that someone plans to remake Casablanca, I shall go to Hollywood or wherever and, singing joyous hymns and anthems as I do so, I shall strangle the bugger with my bare hands!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:38 PM

The bad news is Madonna wants to play Ilsa

The good news is that no one wants to make the movie with her.