blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!

Subject: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:49 AM

It has always been obvious to me that capitalism itself is the enemy. Conversely, socialism's demise has never been in the interest of PEOPLE the whole world over.

Where, and how, ought we go from here??!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:58 AM

Apart from this being erroneously supralinear, you shouldn't ask people like me. I once thought there was hope for humanity, now I think we're, how you say, f***ed. Not that I'm a malthusiast, I just can't see any way we can wrest communications from the greedbags classes, get hold of physical power, and convince the minority of people who are needed to keep them in power that they are acting against their own interests., before the population hits catastrophe levels. And even then we've got to get it down to perhaps less than a billion without cruelty, coercion or discrimination.

Still, if half the punters here are right, we'll get to experience what comes next, if not as a human, as whatever evolves out of the mess, so why worry?

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:00 AM

The next place this ought to go, important though it be, is below the line.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:05 AM

Not pessimism but an observation. I believe that the scales have been tipped and the human race is on its way out. The universe will go on without us.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:17 AM

The world has turned, from survival of the fittest, to survival of the shittest.

The physically and morally superior shall not inherit the earth, but instead it shall be those with the money who survive.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Stu
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

We are the universe made conscious, able to contemplate itself yet sadly unable even to leave the most basic of superstitions and ignorance in the past where it belongs. Capitalism is an extension of this ignorance, the influence of religion an extension of this superstition. The two have led us to being a constant state of war these days, and things don't look any better for the future.

Earth will go on without us - we're a mere ecological blip, unable to restrain ourselves in the exploitation of natural resources, unable to control our numbers, unable to realise a fraction of our own potential even though there are plenty of navigators to guide us.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM

...a new and obviously imposing machination for a working New Deal --- complete with a real acknowledgment that Goldwater and Reagan and Bush -- with their recent leaders Cheney and, now, Palin/McCain (as opposed to McAbel)-- were / are absolutely wrong throughout their wrongheaded meandering dismantling of our American experiment with it's necessarily malleable constitution that readily adapts to the realities of changing times, demands, and NEEDS!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Ernest
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM

"Capitalism" as you call it will survive this crisis just as it survived the crisis in the 1930s.

Socialism on the other hand has failed everytime and everywhere.

Socialism is opium for agnostic people.

Ernest

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:21 PM

Socialism has only failed when it is erroneously blown apart by the excesses of a capitalist funded war amachine.

The mistake socialism has consistently made is to tie itself to the absolutly repugnant totalitatian dictatorship models. When and where it has not done that, it has shown itself to be admirably humane, fairminded and even-handed---.

Art

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM

Ernest, there has not been a decent trial of Socialism anywhere that I know of yet.

While I am tempted to jump up on the soapbox and rail against the monied interests who continue to oppress the average folk, I will confine my comments to this. The opiate of the masses isn't socialism. It's the old okey doke bullshit being spread that says something like, "if you are willing to work hard, you can make it in this country". Tell that to the single parents working three jobs and trying to raise kids. Tell that to the honest and hard working members of the working class who have seen their jobs, livelihood, and the future of their kids sacrificed at the altar of capitalism so that the rich got richer, and the gap between the richest and the poorest just got bigger. Tell that to the average bloke, yourself included, who will pay several thousand dollars this year just to finance the rescue of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and AIG. Oh, and by the way, the fellas that ran these companies into the dirt walk away with obscene golden parachutes. I saw that the fella that took Lehman Brothers into the dirt got 66 MILLION bucks for doing so.

Time for folks to start using some of that old working class common sense they are so proud of and quit voting against your own economic self interest. Time for us, as the bards of our age, to start using the tactics taught to us by Woody and Utah to get through to folks. And part of that should be to put a pretty good coat of tarnish on that old statue of the great communicator, Ronald Reagan. That friggin' cowboy actor is the one who started this whole bit about pissin' on our feet and convincing us it was raining outside.

Mick

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:40 PM

"Within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work, compared with others, is ridiculous and inhumane; hence, many relatively competent musicians within the folk-scene are really struggling to make ends meet; so, if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. A better way, as I've suggested in verse, is to accept that humans are competitive, and have strong regulations (partly via nationalisation) to make that competition as fair as possible – whilst also providing "safety-net" support" (from here).

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Stu
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM

"Ernest, there has not been a decent trial of Socialism anywhere that I know of yet."

Spot on Mick.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM

Thanks, Stiggy!

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:53 PM

"The wonder is that folks like you haven't hanged folks like me in our own guts."
                         --Bill Gates to Ronald in "Bloom County."

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 03:05 PM

Jettison it and replace it with what??? So far no suggestions and that is why you "socialists" always proclaim as each experiment fails that:

"...there has not been a decent trial of Socialism anywhere that I know of yet."

Odd thing is none of you beggars ever states that at the beginning of these ventures, on the contrary you are cheering them on and boasting of how this one will show the way - never does of course, the reason for that being because "socialism" is fatally flawed and as such is doomed to failure. All it has ever produced is stagnation.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM

problem with you, TB, is that you are a reactionary to words such as this, but you lack the depth to think it through. First off, you never seem to be upset with things like subsidizing profits but socializing losses. That is precisely what is going on with the current bailouts over here.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Ernest
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:00 PM

Thanks for pointing out that no one trying out socialism has ever been decent.

And that it always tied itself to the absolutly repugnant totalitatian dictatorship models.

And still you think that socialisms failure has always been someone elses fault.

Even though socialist science claims it to be the superior system.

"When will they ever learn..."

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM

Nice job of simply ignoring the rest of the post. We call your style of posting, "Debate by cliche'". When will you ever learn to quit voting against yourself.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Ernest
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:22 PM

Nice job of ignoring the reality of socialism.

It is socialism that promises people an earthly paradise without ever fulfilling it.

A free economy does give people the chance to make it - no one ever said that there is a guarantee to that. Still even poor people are mostly better off in western countries than in socialist ones.

It is the people in favour for socialism who are voting against their own interests.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:22 PM

Socialism is alive and well in many countries, including the US. There has never been any economic system that was purely socialist, nor purely capitalist. All systems are a combination of the two. Some systems have more capitalist elements than socialist, and some have more socialist elements than capitalist, but they all have both.

People are confusing socialism and totalitarianism, which are two entirely different things. Socialism is an economic system, and totalitarianism is a political system. There can be (mostly) capitalist countries that are totalitarian in nature, and there can be (mostly) socialist countries that are very democratic in nature. The thing that has been discredited isn't socialism, it's totalitarianism.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:26 PM

Teribus plainly believes that he can survive and prosper because he has the biggest gun.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:28 PM

You still haven't answered the contentions. Perhaps, ernie, you could begin with defining for us what it is that you call socialism, and the exact problems you have with it?

I don't think I will see an answer here, or if I do, it will be a cut and paste of some sort.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:22 PM

Basis for that rather idiotic statement please Richard Bridge.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:39 PM

I've got a bigger gun than Teribus. I've got GREAT BIG guns.

Don't do me a damned bit of good in this discussion.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jettison it!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:45 PM

"The thing that has been discredited is totalitarianism, not Socialism." ---Carol C

That is exactly what I am pretty certain I said in my posts to this thread. Carol, right on!

Yes, it was the violence and oppression, and totalitarianism inherent in Communism---but not in democratically decided upon Socialism (as in Sweden and in Canadian health-care---that I firmly think of as being preferable to the excesses we are trying to deal with right now in the USA. The Roooseveltsian years were an indication of where we might try to go now. But those measures were never ever enough. If we were at all intelligent about looking at this present debacle, we would NOT be thinking of the massively dumbed down revolution of the last 8 years as a possible or proper road to follow. Indeed, their stupidity allowed them to take personal credit (no pun intended) for being in the "lucky" position to pick up all the chips. We would, instead, see it as a totally inexcusable path that was only seen as a positive because of all the capitalists that legally stole, and then ran away, with massive amounts of mega $$$$$$$$$ to hide behind the walls of their fortified compounds.

I have said it before in numerous other threads that, when Reagan was given CREDIT (again, no pun intended) for bringing down the Soviet Union, the Russians threw out the baby Socialism with the filthy   scummy wash-water of Totalitarianism! That is why some of us shed real tears at the dissolution of both even while the violent overthrow of totalitarianism was surely completely appropriate. ----

Back to music: PLEASE, listen to Al Grierson's wondrous song "A Candle For Durruti."

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:50 PM

I'll try to post that song later.
Art

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:01 PM

of course socialism is alive in the US..

Only have to look at how the Eisenhower govt built the interstate hwy system...
big business just looked on in support (this is only a few years after the big automakers were caught dismantling many of the large intercity tram systems.. so that everyone had to buy a car in live in the burbs)

but if govt. has no place in business - which has been a keystone of the republican policy - it certainly has no place in bailing out banks, or too big to fail INSURANCE companies whose expertise is SUPPOSED TO BE RISK ASSESMENT.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:04 PM

I have been always confused by a simplified equation in the USA:
         Capitalism = Democracy
         Socialism = Dictatorship

Surely one in no way defines the other! As CarolC says "we live with both. "

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:24 PM

Sandy,
You are correct in your observation--or so it seems to me. In the USA those equations are often held to be gospel---even though they promote faulty assumptions and conclusions.

Art

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:43 PM

Well Art, I define myself as a socialist, but I also demand more democracy from our Canadian government. My political hero was a man named Tommy Douglas whom Canadians regard as the greatest Canadian ever, but they are still reluctant to vote for the party that he founded. I don't think that I'm stupid but I can't get my head around that one!
I guess in Canada we also have strange standards!

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:42 AM

I don't see the problem as being capitalism per se, but rampant capitalism. The traditional, mostly beneficial, uses to which capital has been put for many years (manufacturing, mining, agriculture, commerce) have recently been shoved unto the back burner while the interests of the financial sector have been brought forward. Well, the financial sector creates absolutely nothing. All it does is facilitate the flow of money from one party to another while keeping a bit of that money for itself. Yet, for a number of years now, financial companies have been the darlings of investors. What's needed, and what the current shakeup will doubtlessly provide, is a realignment of the priorities of our capitalist system. Financial institutions are meant to be the servants of those who use money to actually create something of value. Money is merely a representation of something of true value. A loaf of bread has true value and our economy should be based upon the value of the bakery that creates that loaf of bread, not the bank that loans the baker money.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: pdq
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

"...interests of the financial sector have been brought forward. Well, the financial sector creates absolutely nothing."

Right on, as they used to say. And investment bankers are the worst as they often manipulate the value of their investments for personal gain. See George Soros, an economic terrorist as much as an investment specialist.

Benefits should go to those who do the work under any system. That doesn't happen more from greed than fundamental flaws in "the system".

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:57 AM

That's a very Marxist view of unrequited labour, PDQ!

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: pdq
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:11 AM

As I have said before, the US system is a amalgum of all possible systems you can imagine. What works for the Army Corps of Engineers does not necessarily work elsewhere. We try what looks best and change if it doesn't work. We have a "whatever works" system where people can buy, sell, consume and produce the best way they can. Clumsy, sloppy, inefficient, slow to change and imperfect, it still produces 40% of the world's wealth and the US is the #1 dream of emmigrants from all over world. We also accept more new people each year than all other countries combined.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:23 AM

"Benefits should go to those who do the work under any system"

A fairer system to be sure, but not really Marxist. It would be if the workers owned the means of production though . . .

. . . and this has some implications in the service industries, where individuals can own the means of their production, and still be engaged the capitalist system. The problems really start when more than one person is involved.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:55 AM

"anyone caught short selling will be caught and persecuted to the fullest excent of the law."
GWB today announcing the great bail out.

Indivicuals will be persecuted is a fraudian slip

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:01 PM

Bee-dubya-ell - 'I don't see the problem as being capitalism per se, but rampant capitalism.' Can anyone suggest any way other than regulation (preferably global as it's a global problem) to prevent one progressing to the other? Where, indeed, do we draw the line between one and the other, where do we find the threshold/watershed?

It's a difficult question to answer but I agree with the sentiment!

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: sapper82
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:11 PM

At least when Capitalism screws up you only get a few billion pounds/dollars getting lost in the system.

When Socialism screws up you get the Stalin Purges, Mao's Cultural Revolution or Pol Pot's Year Zero.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:15 PM

We had reasonable regulations until Ronnie Reagan dismantled them.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Ernest
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM

Big Mick:

„Socialism" is the political system that existed in the states otf the former eastern block: The Union of Socialist Republic (UdSSR), the so called „German Democratic Republic" (East Germany), various peoples republics etc. The fundamental part of it is that there is no private property in means of production: everything is owned by the collective of the people (represented by state or party). As a consequence there are no free trade unions with rights to strike - every strike would by definition be against the people and a sabotage of socialism (You might remember that the founding of a free union named Solidarnoscz in Poland stood at the beginning of the eastern block`s downfall).

Connected to this is the fact that socialism always tied itself to the absolutly repugnant totalitatian dictatorship models. This is inherent to the system. You can`t give people free speech and other civil rights and prevent them from demanding better pay, work conditions etc. at the same time.

I do have a problem with dictatorships. And working in former East Germany after the wall came down I have seen what socialism has done to a part of my country and its people - ruining the economy and depriving people of their civil rights (even the right to leave).

Democracy and a market economy have been far more successful in solving the problems of mankind than socialism. I don`t claim our system to be perfect, but the people in your examples above would be better off in a free market democracy with an improved social system like most western european states have (what we call „Soziale Marktwirtschaft" = social market economy). I guess the aims of the US democrats go in that direction. Also Carol C.`s definition, if I understood it right. If that is what you favour we only disagree about words.

Now I would like to know your definition of „socialism" and any possible practical experiences you had with it.

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:18 PM

Art, a lot has to do with your definition of Capitalism. If it's just the acquisition of dividends from stock investments, then it has been somewhat counterproductive to American Democracy. Why should middle class and lower class workers be taxed more than the
investor who sits by his swimming pool and waits for the dividends to come in?

OTOH, capitalism and socialism seem to work hand-in-hand in Germany, Denmark,
Sweden and other civilized countries in the world. Government plays a role in subsidizing schools, infrastructure, public health and head-start programs. The capitalist can assist the government through the creation of libraries, educational institutions, safety nets for
those who are in the cracks of the health care debacle and other itineraries.

If capitalism goes and socialism takes its place, where are the safeguards from those
who can game the system like they did in USSR or in Nazi Germany?

I think a mixture works ala FDR.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

The optimistic view:

The current debacle has taught the folks in the financial sector a very valuable lesson. They've played with fire and, while we've all been singed to various degrees, they themselves are the ones with the third-degree burns.

The pessimistic view:

When the hell has anyone in the financial sector ever learned a lesson from his past mistakes? MBAs or no MBAs, they exibit all the psychological charcteristics of habitual gamblers. They'll forget about their losses just as soon as they see the next opportunity for a big score, no matter how risky.


I think we should hope they've learned a lesson, but regulate the hell out of 'em just in case they haven't.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

sapper82 - when capitalism screws up. its not just a few billion lost..
its. wwI wwII (Hitlers Germany certainly wasnt socialist)
the 1929 financial collapse that led to the depression.. Andrew Mellaon then secretary of the treasury said let the banks fail..the govt will do nothing.

since then of course we have had the federal reserve..
Ironic that in the US which is supposed to be the FREE ENTERPRISE system with no govt interference in the economy - you still have this body (the Fed) that sets the interest rates.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:23 PM

Well, Ernest, for starters, Socialism is not a political system. It is an economic system. Just because someone usurps the name does not make them that same thing. There are many examples around the world of "Labor/Labour" parties that have very little of the working classes interests at heart. The USSR, after it's various and sundry revolutions, ended up with a system it called communism in which the State owned everything. If we are to call Socialism and Communism of the same ilk, well..... they may be related but they are not the same thing. Communism is on the far edge of the spectrum and, once again, there are many variants to the system. I would have to spend a lot of time trying to get you to understand the difference between communism as practice by Lenin, Marx, and Trotsky. All had a different take on the practice. And then, I would have to get you to understand that the folks that ran the USSR took the pure ideals and perverted them with a totalitarianism and, in the case of Stalin, a ruthless cult of personality, till in the end the grand experiment failed. But Socialism is not necessarily communism, other than embracing the idea that some things in a society can be done better if they are done for the betterment of all peoples instead of the privileged few that were lucky enough to be born to wealth, or hit on something that benefitted them. I am not trying to tell you that we should kill individual initiative, but if you can't see the evils of the laissez-faire style of capitlism that we are currently using, then you are blind. Socialist ideas are rampant in our society, and embraced by most folks that just don't realize they are socialist ideas. These are the programs designed to share the burdens that befall some among all so that it is easier for all of us. Examples would be Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment compensation, and Disability provisions of various State laws. Another concept that is really a Socialist concept is the regulatory acts that keep our food safe, our environment safe, our workplaces safe, and provide fair opportunities for folks to organize for better wages, hours of work, and conditions of work. The Interstate Highway system was a socialist concept. I could go on and on.

Examples around the world of functioning governments that have many socialist programs are Great Britain, Ireland, Sweden, Netherlands, in fact, most of the EU, Canada, and on and on.

Someone further up the thread pointed out that in the US we equate Socialism with Totalitarianism. That is due to the affliction we have in this country that I have named "Politics by cliche'". It is characterized among countrymen/women of mine who are intellectually lazy, and whose lifestyles have become so soft from the fabulous success of the unions in creating a middle class, that they have lost the desire to dig into a problem, preferring instead to use cliche'd statements to answer anything. It results in posts like yours that are incorrect on so many levels. We fail in the desire to understand the intricacies and the distinctions, and we end up making political decisions based on who hires the best media wizard to give us our views in 90 second commercials. Hence you still have people arguing whether Obama is a Moslem or not. In 2004 it was what allowed the Swift Boat Veterans to move the campaign from a discussion of issues to the besmirching of the reputation of a genuine hero, and even John McCain called that shameful. And this malaise is what causes people to suspend their self interests economically and politically as soon as someone can attach some label such as "tax and spend liberal" or "conservative nazi". And it is what causes you to mischaracterize what socialism is, and the positive things it has already done for you and yours, and prevents you from seeing that the wealthiest folks in this country are waging war on your middle class ass to see if they can get all the money instead of you and your grandkids having a decent life.

Look around, Ernest. Drop your cliche'd and preconceived notions. Figure out what things really mean. Be willing to acknowledge the good aspects, as well as the bad aspects, of the various systems. Who knows, we just might get somewhere. Being a progressive means one is trying to constantly fine tune the beast. It is possible. But not as long as otherwise good folks like yourself continue to hold onto to tired, trite, and unfactual perceptions of what something is.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Ernest
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:18 PM

Big Mick:

according to Karl Marx socialism is a transitional stage between capitalism and communism. So what you call aberrations is the manifest destiny of socialism.

Socialism already includes the concept of means of production not being owned individually but by the collective of people. This as well is not just a cliche but a fundamental position of socialism.

As I wrote before that concept can`t go together with the ideas of free speech, free trade unions etc. Socialism is not equated with totaliarism because people are too lazy to think but because socialism always went together with it (as Art and others here have stated before).
Its not lazyness but experience.

Your message still leaves me a bit puzzled on what your understanding of socialism is. That is because you didn`t say anything about the fundamental concept of collectively owned means of production etc. and ist consequences.

Social security etc.is not exclusively related with socialism. It is rooted in the christian concept of charity, in the age of enlightments concept of equality etc. And the capitalist system is able to provide more money for social security systems than socialism ever was.


Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:40 PM

Right wing Christians in the US (some of the most phobic people there are when it comes to equating any kind of government run social program with socialism) will say that although the concept of charity is Christian in nature, it is anti-Christian for governments to force people to act charitably.

In the US, many people equate any kind of social program that is administered by the government with socialism and marxism (and many right wing Christians equate them with Satanism). Which is why the people of the right wing work so hard to conflate in people's minds the idea that socialism equals totalitarianism. Such people say they want to shrink government down until it's "small enough to drown in a bathtub". They believe in privatizing everything. Of course, the people who buy this idea haven't really put any thought into what would happen if we really did this. They don't realize that they would have to pay a toll just to drive down the street on which they live, and that they would have to pay up front for all of the things they take for granted now, like libraries, schools, fire and police departments, the military and the coast guard.

These beliefs, of course, are being promoted by large multi-national corporations that want to own everything so that we will have to pay them whatever price they decide instead of having any say ourselves how we will deal with these questions.

The privatization of the water in one of the Latin American countries is a very good example of what the world will look like if they get their way. I believe it was Bechtel that owned the water after it was privatized, and the people weren't even allowed to collect their own rainwater with out paying Bechtel for it. People were having to choose between eating and having water to drink and clean with. The people rose up and got rid of the government that made that deal, and their water is once again a public resource rather than a private one.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 03:23 PM

I am religious, Christian in fact, and socialist. If anyone is interested, I'll explain why.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:47 PM

Of course, there is now GOP semi-socialism: While profits go to the capitalists, losses are owned by the people.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:57 PM

Ernest,
In order to see this more clearly, you must get rid of the idea that humane Socialism cannot exist except as a step toward Communism. It can, and it does, exist where it was the choice of the people to have it as their economic system preference.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 05:16 PM

Corporate welfare is now in fashon.
Enjoy it, you pay for it.