BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express

Subject: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 09:48 AM

Vile bigoted newspaper reportage

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 10:09 AM

Trouble is, they're doing a BNP job on the story. They are taking a bit of truth, and embroidering it to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 10:43 AM

Truly vile. words fail me.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 11:09 AM

That's far too many British (and American) newspapers for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM

Despicable, scandalous, a disgrace. Makes one proud to be British, don't it ?


I am no supporter of censorship, but this should never have been published.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 11:43 AM

Hey it's not all bad! They've managed to include around four sentences, which appear to be factual!!:

"Alleged torture victim Binyam Mohamed, 30, [spent] more than six years as a US prisoner being held in Guantanamo Bay. [...]

Mohamed's return came after a storm of allegations that British intelligence officials knew he was being tortured after he was originally held in Pakistan in September 2002. [...]

Earlier this month, it emerged that President Obama threatened to cut off the flow of intelligence to Britain if information about the alleged torture was made public.

Two High Court judges ruled that the danger to national security was so severe that claims about what allegedly happened to him in American-run jails should remain secret. [...]"

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 04:22 PM

You are all going on about this, but are you able to prove that he is not a terror suspect?

Why are we footing his bill and further why is he back in this country?

As to the torture, then that is not acceptable.

However, we are facing a situation where we probably have many people in the UK who hate us and are plotting future cowardly bomb blasts.

Can anybody outline to me without flaming, the true background to all of this. Do you really know the facts!!!!!

I have to be as much in the dark about this person as most people in this country. So please make your case in a constructive and positive way, so us poor morsals can understand why we have him back in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 04:50 PM

...are you able to prove that he is not a terror suspect? Of course he was a terror suspect - the point is, he hasn't been found guilty of any kind of terrorist activity.

"Innocent until proved guilty" is the bottom line in any society with aspirations to be regarded as anything other than a legal pariah.
..................................

"As to the torture, then that is not acceptable.

Going out on a limb there, I see, Villan.
........................

"I have to be as much in the dark about this person as most people in this country." A lot more so, I would suggest, than anybody who has read a reputable paper in recent weeks.

For example here's a list of stories where Binyam Mohammed gets a mention in The Daily Telegraph - not a notably liberal or left-wing publication.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 05:01 PM

Reading through the article linked to by Richard Bridge you get the following factual information:

•        A FORMER Al Qaeda suspect was flown back to Britain on a luxury jet yesterday – at Government expense.

•        Ethiopian Mohamed's return to his adopted country cost an amazing £120,000.

•        Last night, he was preparing to apply for indefinite leave to remain in the UK and receive a possible £21,600-a-year in benefits and allowances.

•        That's around £5,000 more than earned by a frontline British soldier risking his life to fight Mohamed's alleged Taliban associates in Afghanistan.

•        The former detainee, a failed asylum seeker who was once granted British resident status, may also try to sue the British Government for hundreds of thousands of pounds in damages.

•        Mohamed, who arrived in Britain in 1994, was given leave to remain for four years in 2000. In June 2001, he travelled to Afghanistan where he was alleged to have fought against anti-Taliban forces. He was arrested at Karachi, Pakistan, in April 2002 as he went to board a flight back to the UK.

•        Mohamed, who has a flat in North Kensington, London

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 06:19 PM

Teribus, I think you have bullet pointed that very well.

Why don't we roll the carpet out for him. Ooops sorry we already have.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 06:26 PM

And then you see articles like this and you wonder where we are heading in this country.

BRITISH justice was branded a disgrace last night after a respected village councillor was prosecuted for standing up to the yobs who plague our streets.

Retired postmistress Alma Harding was landed with a criminal record for clipping the foul-mouthed thug round the head with her rolled-up committee papers.

She has also been handed a £3,000 legal bill for tackling the vandal and his friends who shouted a stream of four-letter abuse at her.

The 63-year-old choir member, pictured above, confronted the 13-year-old as he was playing football near prize-winning flowerbeds on the village green.

But after she asked him politely to move to the nearby playing fields, the teenager snarled back, calling her a "f****** fat b******".

Ann Widdecombe said the case should have been thrown out

Astonishingly, because the frightened "little old lady" stood her ground she was the one who was hauled before the courts and convicted of battery because she had technically struck the youngster.

Mrs Harding was offered a caution which would have kept the case out of court but would have been recorded as a criminal conviction on her impeccable past.

It made my blood boil to be offered this caution. I would rather go to prison. It's a point of principle

She said she would rather go to jail than accept a caution which would be a "stain on her character".

She added: "It made my blood boil to be offered this caution. I would rather go to prison. It's a point of principle."

Mrs Harding sobbed in the dock during the two-day case and said: "It is a black day in the community when the police find it fit to persecute a little old lady for defending herself and her property as well as public and church property from the vandalism of youths in the village, by hitting one with a few pieces of rolled up paper."

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 06:40 PM

...he was alleged... Never charged, never trued, never found guilty.

Just tortured, and imprisoned for seven years, with the collusion of the British authorities.

"British justice" is indeed a disgrace at times. In fact it's sometimes an oxymoron. But to cite one travesty of justice against this lady as a way of justifying another another one against this man doesn't really make a lot of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 09:02 PM

ALLEGED torture. We only have his word on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Gurney
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:26 AM

'Innocent until proven guilty' also applies to governments and government organisations such as MI5.

So, there was this Ethiopian, who had had British residency but which had expired, Mohammed by name, who was in Afghanistan fighting (He says) against anti-Taliban forces (Who would they be, now?) and Pakistan and he was arrested by the Pakistanis who suspected him of being a terrorist. He claims to have been tortured by various groups, none of them British.

Have I understood this right?

This is somehow the fault of the British Government?
As I see it, HE is responsible for his behaviour, in Britain and in Afghanistan, and if his actions have consequences, then he should suffer them.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 01:21 AM

Kevin, why is it that you fail to state that the torture was alleged, why is it that you fail to mention that collusion on the part of the British authorities is also only alleged - once more your bias comes into play. I prefer keeping an open mind about it until such time as more information becomes available.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:11 AM

>>But to cite one travesty of justice against this lady as a way of justifying another another one against this man doesn't really make a lot of sense. <<

I used it, becuase what happened to this lady concerns me more than what happened to the terrorist (who is milking our stupid generosity and probably planning the next way he can get involved in terrorism).

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:24 AM

what happened to the terrorist (who is milking our stupid generosity and probably planning the next way he can get involved in terrorism).

(Wearily) ALLEGED terrorist. No trial, no conviction. Saying 'he is probably planning ... terrorism' may be slander in the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:29 AM

*suspected

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:30 AM

He had no connections with Afghanistan, yet he left Britain for that country.
Not proof of being a Taleban fighter, but certainly giving him a strong case to answer.
His innocent explanation stretches credulity beyond limits.
His only claim on Britain is that he stayed here for a while.
Osamam bin Laden was also a resident here. Should we send a private jet for him too?

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 04:06 AM

BRITISH troops in Afghanistan are being killed by Muslim fanatics from the UK who have joined forces with the Taliban.

In the papers today

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 04:06 AM

This private jet business is, I suspect, being deliberately misleading. Once they had decided to get him back in principle, the practicalities of the transport need to be thought through. I don't know what the costs of the alternatives are - eg some military jet perhaps - and maybe they wanted or were required to have a level of security which was not compatable with taking him using scheduled planes with possible interchanges and other countries to worry about. Whatever the calculation was, I doubt very much whether anyone said "and we need the plane to be luxurious".

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:58 AM

It always amazes me how people who have come over to this country with apparently nothing can afford to travel to places like Afghanistan and be there for extended periods of time when they are not working. If he had stayed in this country, where he clearly wants to be, none of this would have happened to him.

I would need evidence of torture and collusion just as I would need evidence of his guilt before I condemned anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:13 AM

Question raised, and probably upper-most in peoples minds, including his own, is should he be allowed to stay in the UK.

- He is not a UK citizen, he is Ethiopian
- His residents permit has expired
- His life is not in danger back home in Ethiopia

He has very little grounds for asylum compared to others

He has been given temporary permission to stay in the UK while his legal team you are paying all his living expenses prepare all their law suits. Well they can do all that with this gentleman sent home to Ethiopia.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:20 PM

The English courts have already demonstrated that the US is hiding things (the "redacted" material) and that the UK is being forced by the USA to hide things too.

Binyam Mohammed has already been unlawfully seized transported and confined by the USA, and anyone who claims that Guantanamo detainees were not tortured needs his head examining.

The smear job (that I am ashamed to see Englishmen falling for above) is that because Mohammed came from Ethiopia, is non-white, and is a Muslim, and was accused by the USA, he is bound to be a terrorist and a scrounger.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:55 PM

Well Richard, if the Terrorist Muslims stopped their attrocious ways of committing their bombings etc, then they might get some sympathy.

Until then NFW

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM

One difference is that the allegations that he was a terrorist now appear to have been abandoned by the US government, which also seems to have given up denying the allegations of torture.

And there is no question whatsoever that he was held prisoner for seven years without being brought to trial.

There's no need to get all defensive. You can be absolutely certain that whatever was done to Binyam Mohammed during those seven long years, none of those responsible will suffer in any way for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:21 PM

However the ba**ard* that get people to walk into crowds with bombs strapped to them and willfully blow everybody up around them are to be condoned then! Yes even using special needs people to do it. Cowardly b*s*rds

>>You can be absolutely certain that whatever was done to Binyam Mohammed during those seven long years, none of those responsible will suffer in any way for it. <<

At least the people who you seek to be punished did not strap bombs to gullible poeple and send them into a crowd to be blown up.

Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, until those gits stop doing such atrocoties, then as far as I am concerned, they can go to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

But, Villan, apart from prejudice, you have no reason to believe that Binyan Mohammed is such a person.

And are the lies of army recruiters, who promise glory, much the less than those who promise virgins in heaven?

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:45 PM

If it's got feathers, webbed feet and quacks, it's pretty certain to be a duck.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:47 PM

Richard, I am not out to flame and I won't.

However if you want to adopt the softly softly whilst these people do such terrible things, then be my guest. I just hope that nobody who you know and are close to and love gets caught up in such attrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

There's a very different viewpoint, and far more information, on Binyam here...

The Sri Lanka Guardian


Isn't the Daily Express owned by some pornographer chappie?

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:51 PM

Just a thought, but as some men get promised virgins in heaven, what do women get?

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:55 PM

Sinks

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:56 PM

Yup, it's owned by Richard Desmond, Pornographer...


...unless he's sold it.

He also owns OK magazine...and 30 pornographic magazines....

Okkkkkkkkkk

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:57 PM

"Sinks "

Right, that's it then, I'm heading downwards..more fun I reckon.. ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:09 PM

See you there Lizzie

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:12 PM

I find the idea that there is likely evidence of torture, being actively repressed from the very highest of levels, more disturbing than anything!

So as for it being OK to torture people in 'special' circumstances, for now it's some Muslim enimies.
But, who comes next? Well now, those pinkos are a dangerous bunch (always have been a favourite target in America.) And what about those artists who seem to be saying dodgy stuff (err, ditto). And what about those agitators on Mudcat who create threads like this...? Slipperly slope.

We either support torture as a method of information extraction, or we don't.
We either accept public servants repressing information about the illegal stuff they do, or we don't.

Ethiopians getting fancy flights, are all a big fat red herring to the central and most important issues as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:59 PM

"If it's got feathers, webbed feet and quacks, it's pretty certain to be a duck."

So - if it's Moslem, brown and tortured, it's pretty certain to be a terrorist?

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 04:14 PM

Correct me, but aren't all terrorists of Al Queda or Taleban Moslem?

If so, then we have to assume that Moslem's condone terrorists. If not, why do we not have an uprising by all Moslem's in the UK and expose all the terrorists?

Why do we in the UK have to put up with them?

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 08:04 PM

"If not, why do we not have an uprising by all Moslem's ... "

I suppose for the same reason we didn't have an uprising by all Christians in the US to expose Timothy McVeigh, or the Unabomber, or the Manson Family, or ...

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 08:05 PM

"If not, why do we not have an uprising by all Moslem's ... "

I suppose for the same reason we didn't have an uprising by all Christians in the US to expose Timothy McVeigh, or the Unabomber, or the Manson Family, or ...

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 03:01 AM

Timothy McVeigh, the Unabomber and the Mansons weren't doing it in the name of christianity.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 03:26 AM

"So - if it's Moslem, brown and tortured, it's pretty certain to be a terrorist?"

Your words, Meslf, not mine. But it shows how you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 03:30 AM

Does anyone deny that there is such a thing as militant Islam and jihadists.

I am not cocerned because he is black or because he is a Muslim. Hundreds of thousands of such live here and I know and work with many.

I am concerned because I strongly suspect he is a jihadist who wants to attack us.
I suspect that because there are many such and what they have in common is leaving here for Afghanistan or the Pakistan border country and few non jihadists are likely to make that journey.
As I said, not proof but strong evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 03:46 AM

There is a common error of logic above, and another of jurisprudence or legal theory.

As to the logic, the flawed postulate is this: "Cats have four legs, this animal has four legs, therefore it is a cat".

As to jurisprudence or legal theory, Keith A's arguemnts run counter th basic "rule of law" theory. The point of this is that all are subject to the rule of law. Our rulers themselves are as subject to the law as we are. No man may assault (or torture) another without legal excuse. Suspicion does not justify assault or detention, and nothing justifies torture.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:06 AM

And nothing but nothing justifies these body bombers walking into innocent crowds and blowing up themselves and all around them.
Vile and disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:09 AM

If the four-legged animal has fur, long whiskers, eats mice, and it miaows, it's perfectly reasonable to suspect very strongly indeed that it's a cat.

However, it is still completely unacceptable for it to be tortured into vomiting up the mouse-bones in order to prove it's a cat.

Likewise, it's perfectly reasonable to suspect very strongly indeed that people who (allegedly) behave like terrorists-in-training are, in fact, likely to commit terrorist acts. Not only reasonable, but very prudent.

However, it's still completely unacceptable for them to be tortured into admitting their intentions (or their past offences).

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:11 AM

And Villan's right.

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:41 AM

Well, we've got Binyam Mohammed and it looks as though the US is going to get Gary McKinnon. There's something wrong somewhere!

Subject: RE: BS: Binyam Mohammed - the VILE Daily Express
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:41 AM

I started a longer post, but decided to abandon it because it was getting to full of itself. But the gist of it was this:

Any law-enforcement/legal system is flawed in that it will 'convict' a proportion of people who are truly innocient, while 'releasing' a proportion of people who are truly guilty. That is unavoidable. What is controllable to some extent, though, is the balance: you can convict more of the guilty if you are also prepared to convict more of the innocent; or vice versa.

Any I right, Villan and Backwoodsman, in thinking your preference is that mistakes should be of the 'convict the innocent' kind, rather than 'release the guilty'. I take it as read that you want to do all that you can to avoid mistakes in the first place.