singing as we would speak

Subject: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 25 - 03:55 AM

Style of singing is of course subjective, however it seems that traditional singers sang the songs as they would speak them, should we then approach traditional songs in the same way, as we would speak them. I believe we should , but I am interested to hear other peoples points of view,
this also raise the question of how people accompany traditional songs, bearing in mind they were often unaccompanied, should we make sure that the accompaniment is an accompaniment and does not end up as an accompaniment dictating rhythym and forcing vocals to follow instrument, rather than other way round

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: r.padgett
Date: 25 Nov 25 - 04:25 AM

Yes I agree Dick ~ I sing as I speak simply because you are story telling and many people respond to word of mouth and language received rather than the intrusive tunes which can detract from the listening to the evolving story

Added to, Of which I do not play an instrument for which I ever learnt to play chords

Any accompaniment should be to help key and rhythm I understand ~ there are some brilliant players who do help with very good dual presentation of course

Ray

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Nov 25 - 11:13 AM

Try talking to your friends the same way you'd sing a sea shanty and see what happens to your circle of relationships.

Nobody has ever sung the way they speak in any musical culture.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 25 - 11:53 AM

We are talking about phrasing., and or..Singing like you speak in traditional songs, like in the Irish style of
sean-nós, involves keeping a conversational, natural vocal quality rather than a formal one. To achieve this, focus on conveying the emotion and meaning of the words by maintaining your natural speech rhythm and clarity, using open-throat techniques if appropriate, and prioritizing understandable diction over complex ornamentation. The goal is for the melody to serve the text, not the other way around

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 25 Nov 25 - 04:33 PM

Pete Seeger, of happy memory,
had two ways of singing, depending on if he was soloing
or harmonizing with the Weavers.

When singing solo, he sang very much as he spoke,
actually a model figure for doing so.
When he took the tenor part in the Weavers' vocal quartet,
he hollered --
and burnt out his voice.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 25 - 05:15 PM

,Thankyou that is interesting my apologies or not makimg my post clearer, I had in mind solo singing

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Johnny J
Date: 25 Nov 25 - 07:18 PM

"The way you speak" can vary a lot to depending on where you are and the audience. A conversation with friends is different from a speech, a "working" voice or whatever.

Likewise with singing.

I can think of quite a few singers who perform songs with a voice not dissimilar to that with which they speak. Of course, not exactly. The phrasing will be slightly different and we don't use high and low notes in conversation.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 02:42 AM

Yes phrasing is all important

Ray

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 04:55 AM

Yes all kinds of things are important, but there is no mooral imperative to sing in a certain way.
Thank God we have the freedom to sing exactly how we feel like singing.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 05:06 AM

”Yes all kinds of things are important, but there is no mooral imperative to sing in a certain way.
Thank God we have the freedom to sing exactly how we feel like singing.”

Well said Al, nail/head!

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 05:11 AM

I personally do not like singers who sing with 'transatlantic' (ie American) accents

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 08:08 AM

"Style of singing is of course subjective, however it seems that traditional singers sang the songs as they would speak them, should we then approach traditional songs in the same way, as we would speak them"
so, I was referring to trad songs, only, and asking peoples views, that is very dfferent from forcing people to sing a particular way, or stating that there is a moral imperative to sing in a particular way

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 10:30 AM

British singers with a US accent are very annoying but its hardly surprising, given the fact that the US has been pretty important in the British realising they had a tradition at all- Folkways, Lomax etc...

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 10:43 AM

Well, perhaps those people speak in a Mid Atlantic accent as well. What can they do?

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 10:51 AM

From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 08:08 AM was me, but not the pother 2 posts

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 10:56 AM

It's worth remembering we are not traditional singers, singing by the kitchen fire.
We're revival singers usually performing songs to an audience. There's a need to project your voice.
Although it's not unusual for folk clubs to use 1 or 2k pa's, then there's less need to do so.
Personally I don't think singing into a mic is a natural act, and traditional singers tended not to use them. :-)

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 03:52 PM

i suppose as a revival performer how I choose to sing a song depends on the song, The room, the acoustics and the audience and the general atmosphere.
I think it is important to be at the venue right at the beginning of the night to observe,get a feel for the place, become at home   and absorb the atmosphere, join in choruses support other singers etc

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 04:00 PM

As someone who lived in DH Lawrence country for more than thirty years, nothing used to piss me off more than the RADA allpurpose northern accent. Similarly the local daft buggers down the folk club attempting a Derbyshire/ Notts border accent.

Only one thing upset me more - that was snooty characters having the bad manners to criticise ordinary people having a go at being a folk singer.

Furthermore as someone who took a long time to work up the bottle to get up and do a floor spot, I resent those who assume they have the right to dictate their tastes and opinions.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 04:40 PM

is anyone dictating anything? People are giving opinions, we are free to discuss or ignore them

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 04:41 PM

above post was me

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Nick Dow
Date: 26 Nov 25 - 07:38 PM

That's not like you Al! I was more than pleased to receive advice and help from established singers when I started. Roy Harris and Peter Bellamy took ages advising me, as did Martin Carthy. He showed me how to sing a song by reading and singing the tune from the page. It took me ages to learn, but it stood me in very good stead. No need for a musical instrument. Not one of them was snooty and not one of them dictated.
In respect of singing, as we would speak, Grainger addressed this in the 1908 FSJ, and referred to musical adaptations made by Traditional singers to suit dialect. ( Can't find it? Don't own the journal? Ask, and you shall receive.)

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 03:18 AM

I had forgotten about sight music reading

Ray

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 05:18 AM

You don't know Al, and he's closer to my take on music than the attitude that there's a "right" way to sing folk songs "like the original singers did". In my opinion there are better ways and worse ways- and I'm with Al on the idea that it's better to adapt the vocabulary, rhyming scheme, scansion etc. of a song than try to do an "original" (Scotch/ Oirish/ Zummerzet/ whatever) accent that you haven't got a close-to-native grasp of.

I'm the singer, I sing my song, not Walter Pardon's or anybody else's. And you're free to like it, and if you don't to say why (or not).

Example: I like to sing Recruited Collier in a partially tamed Salford accent to the tune of Andy's Gone With Cattle (Australian AFAIK), which fits beautifully and sounds like a Geordie tune (see below). I see Roud has no original recorded "traditional" singer for this, but the vocabulary of versions I've heard (professional recordings and folk- club singers) suggests North-East England somewhere. The feedback I get is about 50/50 between good and horrified.

Counter example: I'd love to be able to sing The Portuguese (50s or 60s composition), but my Cockney isn't even Mockney. So I don't unless I'm very, very drunk at the time.

This all comes down into the age old conundrum about why we do "folk" as a separate thing. And the only answer seems to be, "Because we like to."

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 08:59 AM

advice and help by all means.

In our creative writing group, we have a rule "no one is allowed to rubbish another writers work". Since we introduced this rule - the atmosphere of our little group has improved no end.

I think the folk clubs would do well adopt this rule, and learn to respect the effort that goes into achieving a performance

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 09:13 AM

Paul B
       'The Recruited Collier' was collected in North Cumbria, so you're not that far off, but I've never heard it in a cumbrian accent

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 09:31 AM

The origins of
       'The Recruited Collier' are dubious, it would appear to owe a lot to A l Lloyd, very doubtful it was collected by him in CumbriA

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:29 AM

GUEST, 09:13 AM: [Citation needed], and tell Rouse!

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:29 AM

"It's worth remembering we are not traditional singers, singing by the kitchen fire."

I posted a few years ago about people singing at getogethers rather than going to a venue to hear people singing. I was born and brought up in the UK.My parents were Irish. At family and social gatherings, both here and in Ireland, people sang largely unaccompanied, just like they did in times past. I am not sure how common tbat is nowadays.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:31 AM

Roud I mean... Rouse used to be my boss. Wo ist Herr Rouse? Er ist heraus.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:34 AM

Regenshund (while I'm in that mood): Salford, late 50s/ early 60s, family get- togethers just like that. A lot of Irish background, but definitely Lancs. Start memory: my Dad singing The Hole In The Elephant's Bottom.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:38 AM

It was reputedly collected in Cumbria ~ Bert Lloyd had Anne Briggs record it and Fred Jordan also sang it as well as Kate Rusby ~ the final verse was missed by Anne Briggs ~ final verse appears in "Reprints from Sing Out ~ 'tis a woman's song

Ray

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:47 AM

A woman's song? WTF is that? You'll be telling mbe only under 16s can sing miner's songs next. This one starts by the singer talking to a woman, the rest is quoting her reply.

If Bert Lloyd did counterfeit it, well, it just proves he's a brilliant artist. Who wrote all the other folk songs (see Roud's book at gloomy length).

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:59 AM

"If Bert Lloyd did counterfeit it, well, it just proves he's a brilliant artist."
Yes indeed, but not a trad song ,and oddly it has the same melody as Sweet Thames.
Andys gone is a composed poem by Lawson, tune trad, put together by John Meredith

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 11:32 AM

I'm not trying to argue about Lloyd. I'm talking about whether singers should try to sing a song in the way somebody sang it 20, 50, 100, 120 years ago (we don't really know much before that) because it's somehow "authenmtic". And I'm trying to say that, if you like it that way, please do. But don't try to make out that it's somehow better than someone who sings the same song a different way.

I'm not sure I agree with Roud, but he's done a lot of research into folk song origins, and, well, the conclusion I took from him is that just about anything went as far as the "source" singers were concerned; and they sang them the way they liked, and the way their audiences expected. Those audiences being pub mates and collectors amongst others, and I suspect they may have sung a bit differently in those two situations.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 01:30 PM

I like to sing songs the way i might speak them, what other people do is up to them, nobody on this thread is forcing anybody to do any thing they do not want to . Or saying anything is better
as regards Lloyd yes it shows he was a fine writer , but it also casts doubts on his scholarship
I quote my original post
Style of singing is of course subjective, however it seems that traditional singers sang the songs as they would speak them, should we then approach traditional songs in the same way, as we would speak them. I believe we should , but I am interested to hear other peoples points of view

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 05:08 PM

Paul Burke
"just about anything went as far as the "source" singers were concerned;"
I believe Steve Roud was referring to what songs were sung and not how they were sung.
As he said in the Guardian interview “If Harry Cox had sung Yellow Submarine then it would have to go in,” (the index)
Roud doesn't define folk songs, if it's been collected and is in an archive, it's recorded in the index.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw.
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 09:21 PM

I never sing. I'm my band's jovial harmonica man. But tonight, due to staff shortage, I'll be singing Galway Girl. There's no way I can maintain a Steve Earle accent, nor should I nor will I try to. I have a lusty voice with a distinctly northern accent, I'm 74 and, as such, I can't be constrained by any strictures levelled at one by the folkie accent police (and I especially won't be singing down my nose). I reckon that all those old singing boys and gals in ages gone past just went down the pub to have fun and would have told, had they existed, the po-faced folkie police where to get off.

So there.

And I might cup my ear once or twice because it works, but no finger of mine will ever penetrate my external auditory canal...

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 25 - 12:23 AM

I didn't understand too much of this, I too am 74. One thing caught my eye:

"perhaps those people speak in a Mid Atlantic accent as well."

The rumor we had in our family (I haven't been able to verify it) was that my umpteenth great grandfather was born on the ship coming to America. So it seems possible he spoke with a Mid Atlantic accent...

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 25 - 01:53 AM

If i wished to sing Opera, I would have no problem with trying to use clear diction and doing breathing exercises so that i could hold a note without going flat.
Good singing technique can be ;learned and benefits performance in whatever music genre.IMO
As far as I am concerned having a good singing technique, helps my confidence in being able to give a satisfactory performance.
as regards traditional singers, there is no set rule, some just went down to the pub for fun, however singers who entered singing competitions example[ joseph taylor], had a different approach.
friends of mine who knew Harry Cox have told me that his attitude towards singing was differnt from Sam Larner, to be didactic or dogmatic about traditional singers attitudes to their songs is a mistake.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 25 - 02:03 AM

Walter Pardon sang the songs purely for his own enjoyment, Sam Larner used to enjoy going to the pub to hold forth, diffrent strokes for different blokes
"I reckon that all those old singing boys and gals in ages gone past just went down the pub to have fun and would have told, had they existed, the po-faced folkie police where to get off. " quote, steve shaw
some yes, pthers, no
but people like sarah makem and walter pardon did their singing at home Sarah Makem sang songs whilst doing cooking and housework, there is also evidence that others sang while doing jobs like horse ploughing and milking. people singing while working is well documented

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 25 - 03:03 AM

steve shaw , you sing in a shanty group, people used shanties as work songs, they did not generally go down the pub to sing them, yes shanties are tradItional songs

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Nov 25 - 05:27 AM

The late Gordeanna McCulloch (fantastic singer) advocated the “sing it as you would say it” approach: indeed, in her workshops, she would get us to read through the lyrics of a song first, before singing them, so that we could get the full sense and phrasing of them, find the important words that needed more emphasis, etc. This advice could apply whether the song was accompanied or not.

As a friend recently said, after we had listened to a singer chopping up the words to fit his funky guitar rhythm, “It’s better to play your instrument to accompany the song, rather than try to fit the song to accompany your fancy instrumental rhythm”.
Then there are those that are so metronomically bound that you can almost hear the click track - again making nonsense of the words.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 25 - 05:33 AM

Well FYI, Dick, we are far from being just a shanty band. Our playlist tonight contains several instrumentals with me and our fiddle player, some Tom Paxton songs, Streets Of London, Galway Girl and a few shanties for sure, among other stuff. At my tender age I won't want paying but a free pint and a plateful of grub and good company will do me fine, and I won't be reading any rule books. We're not exactly the LSO, you know!

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 28 Nov 25 - 05:50 AM

I've always sung Irish & American songs in my own Geordie accent (the way I speak) and mostly got away with it I think?

I can't sing 'Another Saturday Night' in Sam Cooke's accent, but it's a great song, & adapt the words to suit setting an example one day the environment- is that OK- I don't care really

I have a lovely memory of Forster Charlton, legendary Geordie fiddler and Northumbrian piper demonstrating this view in a rare burst of the 1943 song 'You'll Never Know'    as follows....

'Ye'll nivvor knaa jist how much aa luv ye
Ye'll nivvor knaa jist how much aa care   
And if aa tried aa still cuddernt hide me luv for ye
Shuarly ye knaa cos hevvent aa telt ye so
A million an' mair times .....

          (you can do the rest!)

   
sing as you speak - yes...

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 25 - 07:38 AM

An old friend, now sadly passed away, used to sing Tom Jone's 'Delilah' in his broad norther accent

Ah saw a leet on the neet that ah passed by 'er windder...

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 28 Nov 25 - 08:17 AM

A folk club shanty is a forebitter. It may be based on traditional work song, then again, maybe not. That's a stage tradition all its own.

Real mariners speak as they sing... except for pitch, resonance, rhythm, tempo, tone, volume and some other stuff.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Vic Smith
Date: 28 Nov 25 - 09:54 AM

Jim Bainbridge's post??

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Vic Smith
Date: 28 Nov 25 - 10:43 AM

Jim
That was my failed attemot to insert a "Thumbs UP!" symbol on Mudcat. I'm afraid that I have forgotten how to do it.
Are ye aye cribbin' yer bit?
Vic

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Nov 25 - 11:01 AM

MaJoC's €0.02: I remember reading somewhere that songs sung in English tend to have one note per syllable, and one syllable per word, and that that's how you tell when a song was composed in English.* What I do myself in practice depends on the song and the circumstances: in The Handweaver and the Factory Maid, the rhythm comes from the words, while in shanties forebitters, the words have been wrapped round the rhythm. I'll leave it at that.

* Origin unknown. Enlightenment humbly requested.

Subject: RE: singing as we would speak
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 25 - 11:46 AM

Do I remember one of the Kipper family referring to "Foreskin Shanties" or was that someone else?