Arafat is dead--11 November 2004

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat dead--unconfirmed at this moment.
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 11:25 PM

why do you have to 'hate' Palestininans to disagree with Arafat's policies? I don't 'hate' anyone over there, but I disagree with BOTH Arafat and Sharon! Of course the Palestinians need representation and leadership, but not necessarily of the type they were getting.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat dead--unconfirmed at this moment.
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 11:29 PM

I didn't say you have to hate Palestinians to disagree with Arafat's policies. I said that if you hate Palestinians, you'll think that working for their independence is a bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat dead--unconfirmed at this moment.
From: mg
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 11:52 PM

I think we have to press for more than an independent state, and we have to press, lobby etc. the government for massive immigration. We should have a substantial colony here in the U.S. -- in part to take the population pressure off the situation there, and in part as acknowledgement that our country has not been totally fair. I would start with hundreds of thousands and maybe go as high as one million, and ask for volunteers who want to go to rural areas with declining populations. We have land, they have at least an older population with skills. They are used to dry land farming, or were. They admittedly did not make the desert bloom, but they worked with it. Great Britain is probably too small to take many, but Canada could and should. Argentina perhaps? Start with the ones in Lebanon and go from there. Insist on all of the younger ones having trades, regardless of whether or not they go for advanced education, the same requirement I would make of all American students. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat dead--unconfirmed at this moment.
From: Little Robyn
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:05 AM

So now it's true - it's on the news. He's gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat dead--unconfirmed at this moment.
From: Peace
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:06 AM

Gone where?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat dead--unconfirmed at this moment.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:30 AM

3:30 a.m. Paris time. Funeral in Cairo, burial in the PA compound in Ramallah, his temporary successors ar already in place.

It should be a smooth transition of power, hopefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat dead--unconfirmed at this moment.
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:34 AM

Looks like Arafat isn't even buried yet and Hezbollah (with the help of Iran) is giving Israel plenty to worry about. Its far from over.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/500063.html

d

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat dead--unconfirmed at this moment.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:47 AM

Well dianavan, it's pretty damn over for Arafat and
Fatah, I reckon. Of course the war will continue to be waged without him, but that has been true for quite some time now. Hamas has been calling the shots in the West Bank and Gaza, though, not Hezbollah. Hezbollah remains pretty isolated in Lebanon at this point, and the Bekaa Valley.

Subject: BS: Arafat is dead
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 01:15 AM

I heard on the BBC that he finally died at 3.30 this morning in Paris.

Apart from the haggling over the money he salted away and who will get it (watch out for a rash of Nigerian like spam mails) the leadership seems to be quite split.

Maybe however Bush & Co will actually try and deal with the problem in the Mid East.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:46 AM

This should make for some interesting news in the next days, or months...he certainly couldn't take it with him..xx..e


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3995769.stm

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 11:02 AM

The money will be accounted for eventually. I mean, they're running the Palestinian Authority now, which indicates someone besides Arafat has access to the funds.

I know the money thing all sounds 'irregular' to say the least, to conventional middle class folks. But let's face it, Arafat wasn't living like a king. Sure he made sure his family was taken care of, sure graft, corruption, and bribery was part and parcel of the way he did business. But Arafat never struck me as a guy who was ever into the money for anything except the power it gave him to control people and buy the PLO's way in and out of rough spots.

In other words, he wasn't a Saddam Hussein, who put a lot of his ill gotten gains into palaces, etc. Arafat wasn't greedy, just knew he needed a lot of liquidity to run the revolution his way.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: NH Dave
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 11:41 AM

Sorry, Mary, lets let the other Arabian states line up to give any Palestinian who wants a place to live, sanctuary before we invite them into our countries. For all of that, the Palestinians have a place to live, the area they fled to, after many attempts to dislodge the Israelis from what is now Israel. All they have to do is agree to live in peace with their neighbors, something they certainly were unwilling to do with Arafat fanning the flames of hatred, terrorism, and resistance.

    Arafat was a terrorist, the founder of Fatah, which evolved into the PLO, back when both he and it were forced to relocate into lands like Syria, to continue their resistance to the UN sanctioned, Israeli rule of Israel. Among their many excesses, includingf the hyjacking of aircraft, the PLO claimed credit for the assasination of Israeli atheletes at the 1972 Sumjer Olympics. As time went on the PLO was surpassed by Hamas and other terrorist resistance groups who are still operating in these disputed areas, and the PLO has become more of a Palestinian solidarity group than the effective organization of its birth.

   Back in 1994 he and Israeli leaders hammered out a peace accord between Israel and the Palestinians at Camp David, for which effort he and both Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres were honored with the Nobel Peace Prize.

Dave

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: MAG
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:19 PM

Are they Egyptians? Are they Jordanians or anything other than Palestinians? Why should they get shoved out of their own country?

those of you who think the death of Arafat is going to calm things down in the Mid-East are in for a rude awakening.

As knowledgeable people have been saying for decades, Arafat was a MODERATE.

Sorry, Mary, lets let the other Arabian states line up to give any Palestinian who wants a place to live, sanctuary before we invite them into our countries. For all of that, the Palestinians have a place to live, the area they fled to, after many attempts to dislodge the Israelis from what is now Israel.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:53 PM

'moderation' is a relative thing...Hitler was a 'moderate' next to Genghis Khan and Idi Amin...

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 01:01 PM

Peter K.

Noam Chomsky and Edward Said hardly represent any case for Israel. If you read Alan Deshowitz you would know that. he makes complete mincemeat of what they say and rightfully so.

The small amount of Brit Jews hardly represent what I believe is support for Israel here. I would think that they would keep a low profile there and everywhere else in europe.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 01:13 PM

"For all of that, the Palestinians have a place to live, the area they fled to" - so that's alright, then.

All very reminiscent of what happened to another people who were living on land coveted by arrivals with more wealth and more firepower, and who were "relocated" to "reservations".   And then the reservations got whittled down any time the settlers wanted a bit more land, or what was under the land.

"Settlers" is a great word isn't it for displacing people from their homes? An even better euphemism than "ethnic cleansing".

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:02 PM

Martin, British Jewry is not a single-minded entity. (Neither is American Jewry for that matter. I mean, I'm sure they didn't ALL fund Hitler's rise to power and Germany's re-armament in the 1930s.)

Am I the only person round here who's getting confused by the way thread names now get changed in mid thread?

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:32 PM

How about if those on American reservations got better weapons (or, more realistically, lawyers) and turned the tide on the folks who had lived on their formerly ancestral grounds? Is there a moral difference?

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:44 PM

I'm with PeterK(Fionn). Not on the politcs, on thread name changes. it's very confusing if an old thread (when Arafat was still alive) is now converted retrospectively to one where he is dead on November 11. It makes some people's postings read very oddly until you examine what's going on carefully. I can see the logic, Joe Offer and co like to combine all threqads about "Dirty old Town" into One Big Thread if they can, but tjis aim can lead to a lot of confusion in some cases.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:46 PM

Well, before he was almost dead.

Now he is.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:53 PM

A poster criticised Arafat for being resonsible for killing innocent people in a "just cause". Now, how many innocent people has the US killed in Iraq in their "just cause". If Arafat is terrorist, what does it make Bush and his cronies - mass murderers at the very least, is the answer.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Peace
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:07 PM

But, it would have been ridiculous to leave the thread title as it was. Thanks for the change, clones.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: GUEST,HR
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:20 PM

Here is an Arafat bio with lots of links.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: GUEST,HR
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:23 PM

One minute film on Arafat's legacy.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:53 PM

Re: Thread Title: I think the change was good, but should've been followed by (formerly..Arft is dy.) I think that would've made it clear to all. But I think that most of us 'figgered' it out.

There've been a lot of poorly thought-out comments on this thread. I think saying that Hitler was a moderate next to Genghis or Idi shows a poor knowledge of all of the above.

I think making Bush and Arafat equivalent shows a misunderstanding of the principles involved.

You can make all of 'em equivalent by saying: Bush / Sharon / Hitler / Stalin / Arafat / Amin all did "what they thought was best".

In other words, going down the road of moral equivalency in this manner makes anything else you say meaningless, because it's equally applicable to anyone else. Making the Palestinians equivalent to Indians on Reservations overlooks the fact that one can equally state that the Jewish people are the 'Indians' who took BACK what had been stolen from THEM.

Arafat spent a lot of time making demonstrably false statements of fact, of history, of his policies, and of his actions. His was a cult of personality, which puts him more into the techniques of Nasser, which he was familiar with, and Saddam Hussein, who apparently modeled himself with some success after Josef Stalin.

It is yet simplistic to say, "Good, he's dead" without knowing what's going to happen, but we can all hope that with the end of his stultifying and non-productive rule, something better can happen.

As I've quoted before, from an Israeli military history book, "The tragedy of the Middle East is not that it's a battle of right against wrong, but of right against right."

God would weep if He wasn't still celebrating the Red Sox winnning the World Series.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 04:07 PM

Making the Palestinians equivalent to Indians on Reservations overlooks the fact that one can equally state that the Jewish people are the 'Indians' who took BACK what had been stolen from THEM.

You could say that, but it would be equally accurate to say that before it was stolen from the Jewish people all those millenia ago, the Jewish people stole if from the people who were there before them, committing genocide in the process. Looks like nobody's got the high ground, really. So since everybody's just as guilty as everyone else, maybe it's time for everyone to get off their high horses and try to find a way to ensure a future for the children of today.

By the way... as far as I'm concerned, the crimes Sharon is guilty of are just as great as those of Arafat, but I will not celebrate Sharon's passing either.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: tarheel
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 04:11 PM

why dont the cremate him,then we'll know for sure he's dead!
good ridance!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: mg
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 07:09 PM

I would also like to see a million settled in Arab countries also. Starting with those in refuge camps in outside areas.

mg

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM

But of course, unlike other refugees, the right to return to their homes can't possibly apply in their case.

The point of the parallel with what happened to Native Americans isn't that you can rewind history, and rectify past injustice. It's that perhaps this parallel is one factor that shapes the way a lot of Americans see this situation, and seem to identify so strongly with one side rather than the other.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 04:18 AM

McGrath said

""Arafat is dying" - everybody is dying, Doug, apart from the ones who are already dead. "Dying" is really another way of saying "alive".

Just thought I'd add that cheerful reminder... "

This is what Philip Larkin had to say

For nations vague as weed,
For nomads among stones,
Small-statured cross-faced tribes
In mill-towns on dark mornings
Life is slow dying.

So are their separate ways
Of building, benediction,
Measuring love and money
Ways of slow dying.
The day spent hunting pig
Or holding a garden party,

Hours giving evidence
Or birth, advance
On death equally slowly.
And saying so to some
Means nothing; others it leaves
Nothing to be said.

======================

It was said on BBC R4 6pm news that Israel hopes that it can now have a reasonable Palestinian authority to talk with. The Palestinians have probably thought the same way for a long time. Sharon, man of peace? He made calculated moves to antagonise the Palestinians even before his election. Arafat may not have been an angel, but democracy in Israel and eleswhere have hardly sorted out the wheat from the chaff either.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 04:32 AM

I thought your last post, CarolC, was very intelligent in it's summation.

By the way..nice to know the widow won't go wanting..

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1100147302168


..xx..e

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 06:40 AM

He has done a tremendous and successful job to keep the Palestine question on the world's agenda. Without him and his propaganda effort (though I often had the impression that he did it at least as much for himself as for his people) their plight might have been less prominent. I'm sure they'll keep him in mind as a great leader and revolutionary.

On the other hand, he was a failure as a statesman. If the Palestinians would have gotten a state instead of a permanent state of revolution they might have chased him away quickly. He was a monarch in the original sense of the word like Kim, Fidel and Gaddafi still are. There was no question of accountability for him. He did what he felt like. The monies went on his private accounts. That does not mean he kept all (or even most) of it for himself. He very often was moved by a story from an individual person to give this person money to help, but who was helped and who wasn't was a question of his personal whim and emotion. Monies paid for specified tasks by the EU were diverted to wherever he thought they were needed.

People questioning and criticising this style of governing lived a dangerous life. He had ten different secret services to help him keep the grip on his people. All these were accountable only to him personally and more or less uncontrolled. Rumours of torture and illegal killings have never been answered convincingly. He signed more death penalties on a per capita basis than a former governor in Texas did and other than in Texas, executions were open to the public.

Despite his smiling front appearance, he was a very hard man. He talked smoothly and compromising to journalists from the West and, sometimes even on the same day, was belligerent and uncompromising in a talk to his people in Arabic. Perhaps a people in a state of revolution needs such a leader, but one should wish them now that they soon get someone who doesn't behave like a monarch. He was and talked enigmatic and perhaps for that reason could keep himself in power for that long for different people could read different sense in his speeches:

There has never come a proper well-formed Arabic sentence out of his mouth. (The way) he articulated was a chaos of words, slogans, adjectives and prepositions juxtaposed in defiance of the rules of the Arabic language. His coworkers(personell) had to guess which intentions and ideas did hide behind the hodge-podge of his words. That's how also the politics looked over the years that Arafat was making in the name of the Palestinian people. (my translation from German)
(Salman Masalha, Palestinian lyricist, in his obituary)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 08:17 AM

Well said, CarolC.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: NH Dave
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 11:14 AM

While noting that Arafat fomented terrorisn, we must also realize that it was terrorism on the part of the Jewish population of Palestine that finaly made the British occupiers of the region decide that this small bit of territory wasn't worth the bother of trying to govern it.

The resulting civil struggles between the Arab and Jewish occupants of Palestine resulted in a set of boundaries that defined the Israel of the late 40's and early 50's, an area that included both Israeli and Palestinian people. Subsequent wars over this upstart country in an Arab or Moslem region resulted in more land acquisition on the part of Israelis since they were more willing to die for their cause than the Arabs, or just better at warfare. Each war, started by their neighbors, resulted in Israel coming out on top, abeit with lots of help from the USA. We initially tended to support them due to a large American Jewish population, but we support them now because they are the only friend we have in the region, and they are able to provide us with intelligence data that, for many reasons, we are unable to get for ourselves.

Israel did not keep all of the land she captured during the many incursions by local Arabic countries, perhaps not of her own volition, but by judging things in the light of world opinion; and she seemed to have come to a state of peaceful coesistance with Egypt, her largest neighbor. Unfortunately there never seemed to be any common ground in the matters between the Israelis and the Palestinians that did not involve driving the Israelis into the sea, so this situation was never resolved. Arafat and his ilk existed by playing on Palestinian hopes of their return to lands they abandoned 50 years ago, and driving his people to increasingly more violent acts of terrorism, to the point where peace may not be possible between these two peoples, as long as the current generation still exists.

It will be interesting to see how this problem plays out in the wake of his death, and if peace can possibly come to this troubled region.

Dave

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: mg
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 11:16 AM

Surely now we can insist on some proper accounting for any money we send, and surely the EU can too. mg

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Gervase
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 11:59 AM

Of course Arafat fomented terrorism. It's what the underdogs do. Menachim Begin was a terrorist with blood on his hands, and so was just about every other bugger who tried to get independence/recognition for his own people's point of view - with the exception of Ghandi. Most people - Arafat included - sooner or later recognise that the gun is not the best way to win hearts and minds, and adopt a more political approach.
Sadly for Arafat and the Palestinians, Arafat wasn't a natural politician and was inclined to throw his toys out of the pram when he couldn't get what he wanted from the Israelis.
Latterly Sharon has been a much more evil bastard than Arafat, in my opinion; deliberatey and cynically trying to avoid giving worthwhile concessions to the Palestinians and endorsing murder and terror.
Before wringing your hands over Munich in '72 (for which Arafat may or may not have had some responsibility), consider the foul Chabra and Shatilla massacres, for which Sharon was directly responsible.
Arafat's death may have cleared the log-jam in the Palestinian political process, but the poor sods will get nowhere while Sharon remains in power. Shame we're not listening to Kaddish over him.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: GUEST,Skeptic
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM

"Before wringing your hands over Munich in '72 (for which Arafat may or may not have had some responsibility), consider the foul Chabra and Shatilla massacres, for which Sharon was directly responsible"
In the cause of freedom the Palestinian militants are still murdering people in order to somehow prove their point. They just don't realise that this strategy is immoral and destructive to their purpose (unless their purpose is just to kill). Munich was just one major gross act of murder that captured the media. Sharon is by no means an angel, but the Israelis are fed up with these acts of random murder. Even yesterday there were Palistinians demonstrating and chanting "Death of Israel" and Hamas says attacks will continue. That's no way to earn Statehood.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 12:34 PM

Arafat is Arapfft!!! He is kaput!!!

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 12:54 PM

He dead.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:30 PM

The difference between killing of civilians by Palestinians and killing of civilians by Israelis is this:

Israelis kill many, many more Palestinian civilians than the other way around, and...

When Isrealis do it, they don't get punished for it.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 05:11 PM

I just heard a report on the radio that Al Jazeera (hardly a pro-Israel or pro-American news agency)is reporting that the money that Arafat skimmed off the Palestinians is not the $300 million that Forbes Magazine reported a while back, but somewhere between $3-5 BILLION.

Al jazeera is also reporting that Mrs. Arafat has agreed to turn over the various accounts containing that money to the Palestinian Authority. In return, she'll be paid $22 million PER YEAR for the rest of her life.

Imagine, she'll be forced to survive on less than $61,000 per day.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 05:51 PM

CarolC, you are such a hater of Israel.

You are a profound anti-semite.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

It's strange how some things get remembered and some things get forgotten? For example back in 1982 when Israel invaded Lebanon they had a go at getting Arafat, and targetted an apartment block where they thought he was staying, and killed 200 people. But somehow that kind of thing has slipped out of most people's consciousness when they are trying to draw up the record on atrocities.

Here's a very interesting, and critical obituary of Yasser Arafat It emphasises how far from his original ambitions for his people he had been willing to go, in the view of the writer, David Hirst, to try to get some kind of Palestinian state, far furher than he had any kind of mandate to go. "A genuinely democratic leader" could well be far less able to surrender so much.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

I don't hate you, Martin, but I suspect you probably hate me. I don't suppose there's anything I can do about that, and that's unfortunate. But no matter how many times you call me an anti-Semite, I still refuse to hate you.

Subject: Obit: Yasser Arrafat
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:48 PM

GOOD         FUCKING          RIDDANCE               !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:42 AM

I don't hate anyone CarolC, not even you.

I just wish that someone would give you a good knock on the head so you would see how much in left field you were, that's all.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:55 AM

Isn't left field as necessary position in baseball as any other?

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: Peace
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 03:04 PM

"Imagine, she'll be forced to survive on less than $61,000 per day."

Times is tough.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 03:38 PM

Interesting point, McGrath. I asked JtS about it and he said that the person in left field doesn't see a lot of action, but if he or she wasn't there, everybody would always be hitting the ball into left field. Works for me.

Subject: RE: Arafat is dead--11 November 2004
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:55 PM

What a wonderful birthday present! And I wouldn't say that about almost anyone else's death. May his soul rot in the Islamic equivalent of Hell.