BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'

Subject: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 08:39 PM

It just came out in the theaters around here, and I went to see it. I found it disturbing, to say the least. It deals with the myriad of problems in the US health care system - if you can call it a system. I have a son with a very expensive illness, and I've always been fortunate to have insurance that covered his treatments - but only because I made sure I ALWAYS worked for very big companies. But what about the people who fall through the cracks?   I'd be curious to hear others' reaction - those of you who've seen the movie. I highly recommend it. Google "Sicko" and it will come up, take a look at the official website.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:15 PM

Hi Mary
My wife & I just came home from seeing it too. I haven't quite processed the whole experience yet but I'm glad to see that he put an exposed fave of how the US health system has been treating it's people. I laughed then started to cry seeing that others were in the same boat as me, I didn't want that much company. 35 yrs working construction/hard labor & I can't even afford the medication I need because my wife's insurance company plus my medicare won't authorize some of what I need. Just like the movie, pre-existing conditions or it's not on our prefered list of meds or it's not approved or not pre-approved. Like the ambulance bill in the movie not being covered because it wasn't pre-approved, my family's covered by Blue Cross & my son's ambulance bill still isn't covered even though we've battled with then since before Xmass.
Where's a gun when you really need one? Like when you're in the hospital trying to get well & the insurance tells you you're not covere for this one. Thank God I had great medical coverage when I was Going through my transplants (other didn't), I just wish we could've kept it so I could afford what SS now pays me. Not much after I take out $400 a month for med's.
It was a shock to see what nations that aren't as rich as the US do for their folks, maybe we'd better start a revolution. Taxation without ,,,,,,,,

It was well done, thanks Michael Moore, I'm now near sick death!!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:21 PM

Reagan talked about "a social safety net." I noticed quite some time ago that the net had been slashed to ribbons.

People worry about socialized medicine, but I suspect that they had better start worrying about having any medicine at all. One good epidemic (not even a pandemic) and the US would be...well, I think it will be either a social revolution or a bloddy one.

I hope for the former.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 12:47 AM

Michael Moore was on a television talk show last night to talk about the film. I'll see it as soon as it comes to town.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 02:49 AM

I'll grab it as it passes by over here. But I'm waiting for the usual detractors/apologists for the status quo to see how they'll spin this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 03:48 AM

'social safety net'....

The trouble with a net is, it's just a series of holes tied together. It's fine if your wallet is big enough to not fit through the holes, but if it isn't... you're lost.

We in the UK may bitch about the NHS, there are tears in the net, they've got a bloody hard job to do with crappy resources that never seem to cover what is needed, but overall, they do a damn fine thing.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 04:22 AM

Expecting a coutry to be strong and productive without a proper health care and education system is putting the cart before the horse. I can't think of a strong economy anywhere, which is built on poor public health and education standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 04:30 AM

I wish that were true, Alan, it's certainly the way I'd want it. But history tells us different. Ancient Egypt, and Rome, and Greece, were built on underfed, overworked slaves that never saw a doctor. Even England's industrial revolution paid scant attention to the wellbeing of the very workers it built with/on.

I think it boils down to this: You can have a strong economy built on poor public health/education standards, provided you are prepared (and allowed) to treat your workforce like so many cattle. It's the ethics, not the physics, that make the difference, I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:00 AM

How true George... no sooner did we gain the NHS than we lost the Empire!!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 09:07 AM

As a federal retiree, I have medicare and blue cross/blue shield, and it still costs me $400 a month for health insurance.
Everytime I get a small cost of living increase, they take at least half of it for health insurance increases. My pension is double what it was in 1980, and my health insurance is at least four times as much. The drug companies are bleeding us dry and the damn politicians allow it becaue they are owned by those greedy bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 09:19 AM

The US out spends its nearest competator $500 billion to $24 billion for defense. Then there is the off the books, black ops defense spending.

All guns and no butter makes Jack a sicko.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: dwditty
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 09:21 AM

I work for a small company, so I pay over $900/month for health insurance...and crappy health insurance at that. Doctor visits have a $30 co-pay. Prescription co-pays generally run $40. Lots of exclusions. I know people who have insurance through their jobs with $5 co-pay with premiums running about $75/month. Yes, I think it is time something is done.

dw

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 09:22 AM

Takes actual thought and action and work to figure out how to fix a problem. Those are something politicians aren't trained for.

Besides, the US politicians have excellent, excellent health care insurance. I propose, and have for a long time, allowing them no more than what is standard in their district: in salary, in health insurance, in vacation, in retirement.

Betcha you'd see some changes....

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 09:24 AM

George, it depends which end of the microscope you are looking through. If we are talking about oligarchies - I can't argue. We all know that the great "democracy" of ancient Greece amounted to an enfranchised 11% of the population. I like to think htat is no longer possible.
The countries which seem most economically successful to me are countries like Switzerland, which has a high per capita wealth, despite having next to no natural resources. Others, which fit hte bill include Norway, Sweden and Finland. I would hate to be poor in the US...

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 09:37 AM

Alan, I've BEEN poor in the US. Grew up that way.

It ain't fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 09:45 AM

The countries which seem most economically successful to me are countries like Switzerland, ...Norway, Sweden and Finland..

All high tax economies without delusions of international grandeur.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 10:15 AM

Part of the problem is that the US is big enough to provide all kinds of travel opportunities and experience without people ever needing to leave the administration. If more Americans could visit more countries, it wouldn't take a Michael Moore movie to stir things up.

I've met people from the (former) GDR, Hungary and Czechoslovakia who were better off being poor in those countries, under the Soviet cosh, than they would have been being poor in the US. If I was poor and ill, I'd fare better in some remote part of Cuba than in Washington DC.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 10:17 AM

OK Alan, I understand. Of course, that says that the US is not economically successful, or if it is deemed to be successful, it only manages that with bad health & education provisions because it is an oligarchy.

I could live with that perspective :-) but I suspect many US-ers think they have a democracy (ducking...).

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 10:46 AM

I saw two interviews with Moore. Both concentrated on his trip to Cuba with 911 responders who could not get treatment here in the States. They are now subject to arrest.

It is no secret that our health care system only provides health care for people can afford it or people who can't and have the persistence to work through the system. The middle class is screwed.

I pay $300 a month for health insurance with a $5000 deductible. It does offer some discounts on prescriptions and a $20 discount per office visit. Most years my health costs plus insurance premiums exceed $8000. But I have to have it or risk losing my home and retirement savings if I am in an accident or seriously ill. $8000 a year for a healthy woman with high blood pressure and a thyroid that can't decide if it is overactive or under.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 12:00 PM

Oh yeah, I bet I was poorer.


We (US patients) spend 2.2 Trillion dollars on health care.

The Insurance companies/HMO's take 30% off the top.

The Insurance companies/HMO's take 30% off the top.

The Insurance companies/HMO's take 30% off the top.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 12:02 PM

'"Reagan talked about "a social safety net."'

             Why would Reagan talk about a social safety net? I'm surprised he could even pronounce the words.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 12:09 PM

Many countries have a tax on Goods and services, Canada is one, part of which goes to funding public health care. It would seem to be a good place to start. I do not think that the geographic size of America is the problem, Canada is 34 % larher, yet it manages to have a national health programme which is supported by 30 million people. I think a country muist believe that it has certain moral obligations to the citizens. America seems to lack that ethic and relies more on the survival of the fittest.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 12:10 PM

The US is economically successful if that means putting huge amounts of money into the hands of a few wealthy industrialists. However, it is the only indstrial society I have heard of, in which many people have to take on second and third jobs to be able to afford health insurance. It is also the only "modern" economy, in which nearly one per cent of its citizens is in prison and between a fifth and a third (according to which statistics you believe) have no proper health insurance. That would be intolerable in any Western European nation. Viewed in those terms, I would hesitate to call the US a "successful" economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 12:56 PM

I think that America as an economy is a great success. But as the word"socialism" ot "socialized" seems to set much of the populace and a lot of politicians on edge, the comittment to enter into a covenant with it's citizens seems to elude American concepts of democracy. America needs one great champion of health care for all..that person has not yet stepped forward..I believe Clinton had it in mind but could not get either the public or the politicians to buy into it. It might be possible to to push for National health in the upcomming elections if people were so not much obssed with things that are ,perhaps, of lesser importance.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 01:16 PM

To put it in bluntly, the health system here in the US sucks, it's rated 44th world, we don't live nearly as long as many other people of other nations do, our birth rate is or was 17th. It's the same as th poverty issue, they go hand & hand.
An unhealthy & an undereducated society will tolerate being taken advantage of, as we are.
The rich start a war & the poor, undereducated, youngsters go off to fight it for chump change & medical coverage & a chance to get a paid for education. If they're lucky they come home & get to fight again to get coverage for medical for disabilities sustained in battle, which means that they're a bit pre-occupied to collect on their college promises.
Folks work a job for the medical coverage now instead of the pay or other benifits. Bush thinks it's "uniquely American" that an elderly woman worked 3 jobs to get by & laughs & asks her if she gets any sleep, ignorant jerk! It's a crying matter, it's revolting that this nation's people are held hostage by it's education & health systems. It's always been this way for the poor but now it's overtaking the middle classes too & it's become to big of a problem now to just sweep under the rug. That's a lot of bodies to bury unnoticed, hopefully this will give the public the short in the ass that they need to demand something better. The California Nurses Assoc. are taking "Sicko" & Michael on the road with them on a nation wide tour to give 3000 free showing of the film, they claim that the movie is only showing the "G" rate version of the problem & that what we're seeing in the film is less than typical, that it's a hell of a lot worst.
I just found out that I'm not even covered for an eye exam & I'm covered by Blue Cross & Medicare, & I pay through the nose for both, they won't even look at my bloody nose for Christ sake & after bleeding me too.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 01:22 PM

Mike Moore for Pres?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Maryrrf
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 01:48 PM

Could it be that this movie will finally wake people up? Barry, you bring up a very important point - what has always been a problem for the poor is now a major problem for the middle class, and so is there hope that enough people will stop being scared off by all the incessant propaganda generated by the American Medical Association, the insurance companies, and the pharmaceutical companies - and truly vote for a change? More importantly, can we vote in a change, or is it already too late? Personally I think a lot went on behind the scenes in the last two elections and I'm not sure I trust the 'democratic process' all that much anymore. I too noticed that bit about the president laughing about the elderly lady who was working three jobs - he actually said something to the effect of "That's wonderful, that's the American way!" and asked if she got enough sleep. You know what, it's not funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 02:52 PM

Other movies have faced this problem.
One good one was with Travolta as a lawyer taking on the health care attorneys over a kid with leukemia.

Another was John Q Public which was a very poor film.

------------------

Reagan talked about "a social safety net" the same way GWB talked about America under his rule not being a nation building policeman of the world.

-------------------

Sadly the American way is living in the fearful shadow of the goverment. In France the goverment fears the people, in the US the people fear the goverment.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 02:53 PM

There are demonstrations in California this week to support the new health care bill that goes in a consumer direction for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 03:16 PM

"In France the goverment fears the people, in the US the people fear the goverment." Michael Moore, via Donuel

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: MuddleC
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 04:24 PM

Both my elderly parents (80/82) are afraid of going into hospital for surgery as they have both caught serious secondary infections during previous hospital stays following knee/hip and stomach surgery.
Despite my health cover, I had to make sure that my insurer's got paid back for my enforced stay following a road traffic accident by sueing the driver of the other vehicle. The ward and some of the medical attention was lacking before I invoked the private health cover... in private treatment I wasn't allowed a light plastic water jug.. it had to be heavy glass.. and there's me with a broken left wrist and a broken right arm!... but I was able to borrow scarce physio equipment to help treat the worst of my repaired knee joints... until the insurers said 'time' , at which point I went back to the general ward , and shuffled about waiting for my broken heel to mend... at least I had no open cuts by then...

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:26 PM

My father in law, aged 95, had a nasty fall a few weeks back, had to have masses of medical attention, and is still getting help several times a day from care workers, regular day hospital rehab sessions, and aids and adaptions. These have meant that after a few weeks with us he's been able to move back into his own place and is getting back into his own pattern of life again.

The one thing everyone involved in is certain of, thank God we don't live in the USA. We'd all be bankrupt.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 07:13 PM

If you are an American, your health insurance company (assuming that you have health insurance) stands between you and your doctor. If you need an emergency medical procedure, the first thing your doctor and any medical facility involved have to do is find out it your insurance company will cover it, and, if so, how much of it they will cover.

Let's apply that same idea to other services one might need in an emergency :   suppose, if your house caught fire, your local fire department (paid, let us assume, not by our taxes, but by private insurance companies) had to check first to see if you had insurance, and if so, find out how much of the cost of putting out the fire your policy would cover.

Or someone is breaking into your house, you pick up the phone to call the police, and. . . .

Would we find a system like that acceptable? And if not, then why are we willing to accept a health care system that operates that way?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 09:37 PM

I was in a hospital last week. I didn't have my wallet with me, nor did I know my health care number, nor did my name bring up my account. However, they treated me and I left. They wanted to keep me for the evening but I refused. Would that have happened in the US? Serious question here.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 10:10 PM

I do hope it was not crabs. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 10:32 PM

Depends of where in the US, Peace. But yes, probably you would have been given some sort of treatment, at least in the places I'm familiar with. If kept overnight you might not have had a private room, a phone, and a television though.

I just had an eye exam, which I've had annually since I was about seven years old. I have very low grade cataracts, the barest beginnings of macular degeneration in my left eye, and I need new glasses. I'll get the new glasses (Vision Insurance will pay for part of it, as it will with the eye exam). I'm lucky(?) to have diabetes II, because now most of the exam is covered by Blue Cross.

On July 18 I'm braving the Veterans' Administration hospital system and having an audiology test done at the hospital in Salt Lake City (yes, I need hearing aids and I have constant tinnitus). I filed a VA claim in January for hearing loss and possible AO exposure, so here we go...finally.

For this I will give up about a day and a half of sick time from work and drive approximately 350 miles total. Mind you, the VA will reimburse me...US $0.11 per mile, a rate that hasn't changed since 1978. That's US $38.50, enough to cover the costs of gasoline. Of course, since the appointment is at 9 a.m. I'll have to spend the night down there, and THAT isn't covered...and neither are any meals I eat....

Once all things are decided and if my claims are found to be just, I'll be able to pop over to the local University's audiology department and get the hearing aids, have the local University's medical studies department monitor my diabetes.... That will be a drive of about 10 minutes.

Ah, yes. Good ol' US healthcare.... I'm glad I'm working, and frankly, I can't see any chance of retirement anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 10:35 PM

Tell me about it. Retirement that is. Sheesh . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Maryrrf
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 10:44 PM

My personal opinion is that no you would not have been treated unless it was deemed a life threatening emergency, and even then I wouldn't bet money on it! The website for "Sicko" has lots of depressing stories and anecdotes from people who have had the misfortune to get sick in America, including one who was the victim of a crime (beaten) and ended up with his credit rating destroyed due to hospital bills. Oh and don't forget to go to the LA Times and read about the woman who died in the emergency room as her husband begged someone to help her.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Kent Davis
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 10:46 PM

Peace,
Yes, you would have been treated. In the US, emergency rooms in hospitals that accept Medicaid funding (i.e., most hospitals) are required to post notices informing the public that they will receive emergency assessment and stabilization regardless of ability to pay. At least at our local hospitals in the mid-Ohio Valley, the staff bend over backwards to provide any treatment that could by any stretch of the imagination be called "emergent". This does not mean, of course, that the service is free, but it does mean that payment is not required in advance. If the patient is unable to pay afterward, the hospital will work out a payment plan, generally with generous terms, and often will write off all or part of the bill - provided that the patient is making some effort to pay.

McGrath of Harlow,
You would likely not be bankrupt as your 95-year-old father would certainly qualify for Medicare, possibly for Medicaid, perhaps for charity care and, depending on what sort of work he had done, possibly for other coverage as well. Coal miners, railroad workers, and civil servants, for example, often have excellent medical coverage. If he were a veteran, he would qualify for benefits through the Veterans Administration. That system is famously uneven in quality, but it can be excellent. My father-in-law is very satisfied with his care through a VA clinic near their home in SW Virginia.

Many of you may not be aware that WalMart, KMart, and Giant Eagle pharmacies have programs in place to provide a month's supply of a great many medications for $4. These programs include medications for diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, edema, tachycardia, depression, anxiety, pain, etc. In addition, drug companies have programs to provide other drugs at reduced cost or even free to those who need them. There are private charities that provide help. Many physicians will give out "samples" of medications provided by drug companies. I have have many patients who had to take a drug twice daily instead of a more expensive once-daily extended release form, many who had to take two separate drugs instead of a more-expensive combination pill, many who had to take a "good enough" drug instead of the best drug on the market but, so far, I have NEVER had a patient who simply could get needed medication.

None of the above is intended to deny that our system has its problems. I do believe, however, in giving credit where credit is due.

Kent Davis, D.O.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 11:13 PM

I want to see this film very much. I am such a broken record on the subject of national health care that I irritate myself.........! But our family medical insurance (NOT including eyes, or teeth or any frivilous extras like that......) runs me $1450 A MONTH.......do the math - $17K a year for insurance. Of course, my son is about to be booted off the policy as he does not want to go on to further education and he will turn 19 in September; my middle child is walking the tightrope between being kicked off our coverage now she is no longer in full time education and waiting for the medical insurance on her new full time job to kick in. As I have stated before I understand that I am 'lucky' to be able to pay this huge bill -- but adding in separate coverage for Dental ($1200 a year) these premiums take an enormous bite out of my family's income. We do have presciption drug coverage -- thank heavens, but after out of pocket expenses and non covered items, the annual bite is at least $20K. That - of course - is assuming none of us get really ill -- we have an ENORMOUS deductible. The system is ridiculous, barbaric and cruel.    And there are people who actually couldn't understand why the Cuban family from way back when wanted their kid the hell out of America and back in Cuba where he couldn't play with electronic games 24/7 but he did get health care!

OK - I'm done.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 11:38 PM

Kent, I have a LOT of respect for physicians -- both alleopathic and osteopathic. They do a lot of good for those who cannot afford medical care -- I know, I grew up in that situation. Fortunately, our "family doctor" provided us with care at far, far less than her usual rate (mostly free, I think).

But the system has problems, and like everyone else physicians should be paid for their services. So should hospitals. Right now, some of my medical bill goes to pay the bill of someone poor (which I don't mind) or a deadbeat (which I very much mind).

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 03:20 AM

Kent, I was going to affirm that emergency rooms in the US accept and treat walkin or hauled in patients. I understand that many of the ER bills are never paid- at least, that is the rationale we hear as to why hospital care is so expensive.

FWIW, my local hospital does something that I had never heard of: the patient pays a surcharge of $856.00 for each admission. In other words, if you are released after being kept overnight and then find that you have to come back again, that night or later, you will be charged the $856.00 AGAIN. That's on top of the normal charges. And it is not covered by Medicare or most other insurance plans.

Kent, you say: "I have have many patients who had to take a drug twice daily instead of a more expensive once-daily extended release form, many who had to take two separate drugs instead of a more-expensive combination pill, many who had to take a "good enough" drug instead of the best drug on the market but, so far, I have NEVER had a patient who simply could get needed medication. "

I've been trying to unravel that sentence, and so far I've concluded that you mean "have NEVER had a patient who simply could NOT get needed medication."

Would you clarify?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Maryrrf
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:12 AM

A lot of money is being made off of the messed up American system, but I think the goose that laid the golden egg is on its last legs. It is getting to the point where individuals can't afford insurance premiums, companies can't afford to offer insurance to their workers, and sick people certainly can't afford to pay for their medical care and prescriptions at the inflated prices we're seeing. Where will it all end???

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Mark Ross
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:19 AM

Saw a bumper sticker a while back, THE AMERICAN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM - DON'T GET SICK!

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Kent Davis
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 03:44 PM

Ebbie,
You are correct. I meant to write "I have have many patients who had to take a drug twice daily instead of a more expensive once-daily extended release form, many who had to take two separate drugs instead of a more-expensive combination pill, many who had to take a "good enough" drug instead of the best drug on the market but, so far, I have NEVER had a patient who simply could NOT get needed medication." I left out the word "not" in the last line. Sorry and thanks for catching the error.
Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 08:22 PM

the elites in US industry are now starting to talk about some kind of public health care system.. Ironically because of the high legacy costs that companies like Chrysler have(WHICH makes them uncompetitive). since large corporations are required to provide medical ins. coverage (I belive).

So it costs chrysler something like a $1000 less to build the same car in Canada because of Canadas universal health care coverage..

now - my insurance coverage in Canada (in BC) is $56 /month which everyone is required to have and pay(some employers cover this as a benefit) Although for those who cant afford it the there are other options.
Granted the state of medicare in Canada is constantly in the news.. usually there are long waits for various procedures so its not perfect. Some people are pushing for some kind of mixed public/private system while others feel that would be the slippery slope with an end to the public medical care.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 08:31 PM

In the US even with insurance there frequently is a longish wait to see a specialist or even your own doctor. Three weeks or a month for a non-emergency is fairly standard.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 09:02 PM

Kent Davis's list of possible ways my father-in-law might have been able to get help in the States is reassuring - but ain't it complicated, all those different schemes and agencies! How much simpler to have a system where, of you get injured, you get the treatment you need, and money just doesn't enter into the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 07:17 AM

The root of the problem here is the fact the US (and increasingly here in the UK) people are not viewed as citizens, but consumers. Your sole purpose is to be sold things mainly stuff yuou don't need, but in a very aggressive capitalist system this includes healthcare.

As long as your politicians and business leaders see you as a method of funding their own war/lifestyle/etc then you're lumped with it. The notion everyone is free to choose in the market economy is revealed for the falsehood it is in the case of the US healthcare system. If you don't have the cash then you don't have any choice, no matter what the constitution says.

Lemons to be squeezed.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 06:41 PM

Going to see aforesaid 'Sicko' tonight -- if it has anything like the same effect on me as Fahreinhet 911 I will be blown away. Will report in later.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 12:00 AM

Well -- if you haven't seen it , now is the time to rob your piggy bank, beat up on your friends and neighbors and go and see this film. When is the last time you went to a movie and everyone clapped at the end ???????? Watch this and ask yourself how fast you can book yourself on the next plane out of here to a place with socialized medicine........

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 04:28 AM

I just watched it myself...and I find it absolutely shocking...

I found the part about the workers in Cuba to be both disgusting and touching at the same time....disgusting in why a country as poor as Cuba can provide such great healthcare to its citizens...and a country as rich as the US cannot it's mindblowing...and very touching about how the doctors assured them they would be alright now....everything would be ok....and the local firemen were saluting and honouring them...

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Maryrrf
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 08:36 AM

The film received a standing ovation when I saw it too - and this in conservative Richmond, Virginia!

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 10:14 AM

Rapaire - PM
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 09:22 AM

Takes actual thought and action and work to figure out how to fix a problem. Those are something politicians aren't trained for.

Besides, the US politicians have excellent, excellent health care insurance. I propose, and have for a long time, allowing them no more than what is standard in their district: in salary, in health insurance, in vacation, in retirement.

Betcha you'd see some changes....


---------------


I have access to the identical health plans that Senators and Congressmen enjoy. Still there is a divide between health care for anything connected to teeth gums and mandibular and cranial bones and the rest of the body. Basicly you are on your own when it comes to Dental.

My wife was part of the NIH study that proved that dental problems and heart health are in direct correlation. In fact even children in Washington DC have died from infected teeth.

Emergency rooms have one and only one policy for dental care. Extraction.

Seperate and meager dental coverage is another pathetic short coming in US health care.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 03:32 PM

greatidea, Donuel.......that might make a difference. One of the huge issues here,of course,is if you are insured there is not an incentive to do much to change the system and if you are not insured, you are frequently too beaten down to do anythng about it. I am so angry right now it makes me sick.   BUT I really do think that finally things might start to change -- someone commented way back now that the impact of this horrible system is beginning to work through and impact some of the wealthy - via increased prices for cars to offset cost of insurance - there may be changes coming.........

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Alice
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 04:26 PM

the system in this country is not going to be fixed until the insurance
companies are completely taken out of it... and that unfortunately
probably won't happen

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: coldjam
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 04:53 PM

Would I be too far out there to suggest we have enough knowlege to prevent most of the disease we experience?

Seems like the majority of health problems are self-induced. NOT ALL I rush to add.When we live contrary to what we know is healthy and then want someone else to foot the bill, I think we can see the beginning of the healthcare problem. I personally think it would be better dealt with by preventative measures such as healthy food for poor folks. For instance,we send 'em white milk and macaroni, when they should have yougurt and green fresh food.

That's not to say I'm opposed to doctors, I'm just saying we are "feeding" a system that doesn't seem to be working for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Alice
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 06:45 PM

interesting idea codjam, but how do you prevent accidental injuries with salad? ;-)
Healthier food and life is definitely helpful in preventing some disease, but
every pregnant woman will tell you she wants healthcare for the pregnancy and
delivery and every parent who has a kid break their collarbone falling off the jungle gym
and every aging person finding themselves with health problems that have developed
from a slip and fall or aging organs or dental problems... well, obviously, diet
and exercise alone are not going to be the answer for health care.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 07:20 PM

We should do what we can to be healthy, but there are many things over which we as individuals have no control. Our governments seem to be one of those things.

I thank God for Tommy Douglas every single time I go to a hospital or a clinic. He was relentless in pursuit of a medicare system, and we really have him to thank. If you feel one person can't change things, ya gotta give that a second, third, fourth . . . thought. Tommy Douglas did!

Yes, we lost lots of doctors. About 10,000 went to the US because wages were better. (Seems obvious they went for the money, but that's another thing.) However, if a country like Canada can do it then for sure the USA can.

By all means GET really really PISSED OFF. It's about time you did. Make your wannabe leaders commit to a plan for medicare. Do NOT let them give you the, "Well, yes, it is my intention to ensure the best health care possible for ALL Americans." That is just horseshit disguised as bullshit. Make them talk about it. FORCE the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 07:52 AM

that's what happens when you live in a capitalist sociaity

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 08:52 AM

Wasn't there a guitarist called michael Moore in the 70's who used to sing a song called The Circus is in town.

or does my memory betray me?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 10:54 AM

Here is a memo that a consciencious Blue Cross employee has passed on to us so that we may see how they plan to defend themselves from the issues the movie Sicko poses...


http://www.michaelmoore.com/_images/splash/Capital_BlueCross_memo_2.jpg


the leaking of this memo was a very risky thing to do for our brave Blue Cross worker.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 10:01 PM

"Yes, we lost lots of doctors. About 10,000 went to the US because wages were better."

       Better hope they weren't replaced by doctors from the Muslim world, like the bombers in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 12:06 AM

Except for perhaps leaking it ahead of time I don't see that it took any particular courage for the Blue Cross worker to release the text. If they truly believe that Moore was blatantly one sided and failed to factor in their own most salient point, their defense is a valid approach.

Incidentally, I didn't realize that Blue Cross/Blue Shield is non-profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:47 AM

Many of the Doctors who left Canada did not do so for the money. Many left because of the bureaucratic overload, restrictions placed on how patients were dealt with, long hours, people abusing the system(Parents who dropped the kids off at emergency and went to play bingo) I know a number of doctors, now working in America, who would resent such blatant generalizations as "they went for the money". Most did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Bee
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:30 AM

http://www.northernlife.ca/News/LocalNews/2007/04-18-07-docsUSA.asp?NLStory=04-18-07-docsUSA

Some perspective on doctors moving to different countries. I selected a few quotes from the article, which concerns Ontario.

If Canadian-educated doctors who were born in the United States are eliminated from the statistics, the number practicing in the United States goes down to one in 12.

The tide is turning, however. In 2004, the number of Canadian-trained doctors returning to Canada outnumbered those leaving – 262 left and 317 returned.
Blayney himself was lured away from his country of origin – Ireland – to work in Canada in 1988.
"They (Ireland) lost me, along with maybe about 10 percent (of doctors) at the time," said Blayney.
"It was a time when a lot of people left and they didn't come back. It still happens now. There is a movement of doctors."

Blayney isn't too concerned his students will want to work in the United States. NOSM students are mostly from Northern Ontario and many want to stay here and help alleviate the doctor shortage, he said.

Some medical graduates go to the United States so they can earn a lot of money to pay off their debt load, he said.

"One of the important things is to make sure there are good bursaries and that tuition fees aren't rising excessively, and the debt that they have after four years of student life is less than $100,000," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: coldjam
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 02:31 PM

"From: Alice - PM
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 06:45 PM

interesting idea codjam, but how do you prevent accidental injuries with salad? ;-)
Healthier food and life is definitely helpful in preventing some disease, but every pregnant woman will tell you she wants healthcare for the pregnancy and delivery and every parent who has a kid break their collarbone falling off the jungle gym and every aging person finding themselves with health problems that have developed
from a slip and fall or aging organs or dental problems... well, obviously, dietand exercise alone are not going to be the answer for health care."

I agree we need a machanic for our bodies from time to time,(and probably salad insurance) but most of the ill-heath industry feeds off our laziness and inability to afford healthy food. By-the-way I was pregnant twice, and didn't have "health care". I used a naturalpathic doc the first time ($500) and a mid-wife the second ($about the same) . I had em both at home. I realize some woman have problems & need serious intervention, but I'm also saying some of those problems are preventable and some more of them are caused by the health care "professionals" they put their trust in. Many of these guys are promoting (knowingly or possibly unknowingly) a lot of problems by pushing drugs (not that I'm across the board against drugs) and certain procedures.

I guess my point is: The industry has ulterior motives and nothing will be fixed until that's addressed...And frankly I think it's too deeply entrenched in our society and too many people have bought into it completely so it won't be addressed.

Alice, are you trying to tell me something by calling me "cod"jam? Do I sound fishy to you? Don't be Koi, you can tell me...:)

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Bee
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 02:56 PM

Ha! Coldjam, it must be the blue font - I read it as 'cod'jam as well; just assumed you were a Maritimer like myself, or a Newfoundlander.

I'm not so sure as many of our health problems are self-caused as we are led to believe. There's a certain joy governments and health pundits seem to take in accusing us of sinning against our bodies, while ignoring the stew of chemicals, hormones, bad water, bad air, and nutrient poor vegetation they thrust in our direction. I know my grandparents/uncles/aunts ate far more and far fattier than I or my friends do, and although they worked hard, I've worked as physically hard myself. A few of them were fat, most were thin: why? Many of them smoked or chewed tobacco, none had lung cancer, except the ones who worked in coal mines; why?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 03:23 PM

Interesting that the angle that Blue Cross memo identifies as a good way of diverting attention from the issue of the need for universal health care in any civilised country (ie the fact that unhealthy lifestyles are the source a lot of ill-health) has come up here so rapidly.

To me it seems a completely irrelevant issue. Obviously it'd be great if people could live more healthy lives, and if they did that might cut down health-care costs, but that doesn't in any way mean that access to health-care isn't desperately important for everyone.

And in fact it doesn't even follow that healthier living would reduce the need for health-care - it might even work the other way round. Maybe if we all lived healthier lives we'd all live a lot longer, and that's mean a whole lot more people needing medical help in their later years.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Bee
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 03:45 PM

It's been noted in Canada, McGrath, that the health system is seeing far more joint, muscle, and soft tissue injuries in the fifty plus age group, as a result of people indulging in recreational/exercise sport activities far later in life than they used to.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 12:09 AM

The issue here is corporate greed by the HMO's and Big Pharma. Micheal nailed it.
The doctors are seduced by lavish sales pitches and the politicians rely on big insurance companies to finance their campaigns.

We do not have the best health care in the US. If it doesn't reach the population, what good is the tech advancement? Research and Development for the wealthy.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 01:23 AM

If You Have Health Care, The Terrorists Win

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: coldjam
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 09:02 PM

Haven't seen the movie yet...does he hit on the Universities getting public funds for research and then selling the results privately?

Don't laugh, but Michael Chrichton's latest novel really gives a revealing look at the industry in story form. I think it's called "Next".It's really his take on the genetic thing, but whilst doing that he's revealing research techniques which overlap the whole Pharma karma thing.

Bee-I like fish-does that count? :)
You said:I'm not so sure as many of our health problems are self-caused as we are led to believe. There's a certain joy governments and health pundits seem to take in accusing us of sinning against our bodies, while ignoring the stew of chemicals, hormones, bad water, bad air, and nutrient poor vegetation they thrust in our direction. I know my grandparents/uncles/aunts ate far more and far fattier than I or my friends do, and although they worked hard, I've worked as physically hard myself. A few of them were fat, most were thin: why? Many of them smoked or chewed tobacco, none had lung cancer, except the ones who worked in coal mines; why? "

I think that kinda proves my point. Should we just suck up everything they sell us?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 10:05 PM

My husband and I were invited to go and see Sicko tonight but we had just seen it so we compromised on dinner. Our friends are wonderful ...... they were asking me during the meal if health care in the UK was really like the movie and I had the exquisite pleasure of saying YES-----is it perfect? NO!   Do we have to wait for non life threatening illnesses - YES. Is it better than the US syste - YES!!!!!PMme and I would be glad to tell you why

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 07:02 PM

Here's a page with graphs showing the amount of money spent on health in a range of countries around the world.

The figures for the USA for spending per head is two or more times as high as pretty well everybody else, for a health system that effectively abandons large sections of the community.   It strikes the Americans really are getting ripped off by their health industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 08:56 PM

The high cost of health care in the US should be no surprise--Doctors are represented by the AMA, which is possibly the strongest union in the country; drug companies have been issued a license to steal and hospitals routinely gouge anyone 9in sight. Add to this the insurance companies, who have a vested interest in maximizing profits (and little incentive to cure people) and you have...what we have. Pathetic, ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 08:58 PM

Amazing! Here's a thread in which everyone agrees.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 07:14 PM

Here's a piece in today's Guardian by an American mother living in England, with a moving tribute to the way NHS provision helped the family during her young sons terminal illness.

A precious provision:

"...I'm from the US, where the possibility of receiving such comprehensive and hassle-free care is a pipedream.

It's difficult to say how different our experience would have been had we lived in the US...For most of Dill's life I was a member of an internet support group, made up of some 200 families around the world with Dill's condition. US members had a unique theme, and it was all about insurance.

Their sometimes desperate, usually middle-of-the-night messages focused on who was covered for what, how to work the system, how to cope when you had no insurance, how to get the piece of equipment that would greatly enhance your child's quality of life. For those who could get ample coverage, the form-filling was soul destroying. Many families had to routinely do fundraising. At least one of the families was trying to move to Britain specifically for the healthcare...."

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 08:26 PM

My father's illness and passing not too long ago filled me with a horror and contempt of OUR way of medicine in the United States. It is a broken system at most if not all levels, and in order to fit into it, a lot of good intentions get bent.
It disturbs me too much to this day to spend more time talking about it. It needs a thorough analysis and re-vamping from the bottom up, and a few lopping off of heads at the top.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 04:37 PM

Throw the fu#kin' drug company lobbyists OUT of government offices.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 05:19 PM

A few years back, I sat in my manual wheelchair the in hallway of our apartment and watched while a repairman from Care Medical Equipment Co. installed new batteries in my electric-powered wheelchair. The new batteries (2) were priced at $240.00 apiece. I asked the repairman why batteries for powered wheelchairs cost so much;   much more than automobile batteries. He answered me quite frankly, "Anything related to medical equipment is hugely overpriced. The manufacturers and the retailers of medical and orthopedic equipment figure that it's going to be paid for by some medical insurance company anyway."

My niece's husband, Tim, got a job in which one of his duties was working with and installing batteries. I asked him about different kinds of batteries. He looked at the ones in my power chair and told me, "Those are just standard 12-volt deep-cycle marine batteries." When I told him what I had been charged for them, he just about keeled over.

The next time I needed to replace the batteries, I called Tim. He picked up a pair and installed them for me. $50.00 for the pair. He got them for me wholesale, but even if I'd had to pay full retail price, it would have been less that a quarter of what I'd paid Care Medical.

They worked just fine. Same batteries. Different labels.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 01:01 AM

There you go -- a ripoff........

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 12:04 PM

I have to wait for my appointment half the time due to numerous drug sales people going in and out of my doctor's office.

god damn the pusher man.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 08:06 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/15/moore.gupta/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 07:46 PM

CNN apologizes for attack on Sicko

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=217

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 08:02 PM

"Throw the fu#kin' drug company lobbyists OUT of government offices."

Lobbying is nothing but influence peddling, make it illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 12:33 AM

Lobbying itself shouldn't be such a bad thing. Ideally, it is meant to educate, to bring all the information to someone in power so he or she can make appropriate decisions.

But like 'lawyer' and 'politician', it has become a dirty word.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 12:36 AM

Hi. I am from pharmaceutical Company X. Before we proceed, here are the keys to your new Mercedes. Now, what I'm here to see you about . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 12:43 AM

But Peace, that is an abuse of lobbying. It is NOT what it was meant to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 12:53 AM

I understand that, Eb. But that's what lobbying has become all too often.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 02:46 AM

I just tripped over this article and decided to cut and paste it in its entirety.



Of Battered Wives and the US Congress      
Written by Stephen P. Pizzo   
Tuesday, 17 July 2007
by Stephen P. Pizzo

Is it just me, or have you noticed it too? Something is afoot — maybe. All of a sudden I am reading and seeing on TV individuals who wear suits and can quote the US constitution from memory, talking about the impeachment of George W. Bush and his sidekick.

My first clue was when I read last week that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi told a radio station, "We can't take impeachment off the table."

Holy whiplash, Batman, isn't that exactly the opposite of what she's been saying since crowned Speaker last January? What happened there?

Then there was the extraordinary interview Bill Moyers did last week with John Nichols of The Nation magazine and Bruce Fein, a former Justice Department official during the Reagan administration who drafted articles of impeachment against Bill Clinton.

[Link that was here removed.]

Neocons may dismiss Nichol's views as those of a "known liberal," but what about Fine? No lib there. Fine is the guy conservatives tapped to craft and pen the case against Clinton. Now he wants to do the same thing for Bush – and for precisely the same reasons.

Both men explained that impeachment, always framed by mainstream media as a "constitutional crisis," is actually precisely the opposite. Impeachment, they explained, is the solution to a constitutional crisis. The real constitutional crisis occurs when Congress fails to protect and maintain the balance of power the Founders enshrined in the constitution.

"The Founders gave congress the power to impeach as the remedy to an imperial presidency," Fine noted.

Of course those on the right will claim that any talk of impeaching Bush and Cheney is purely political – as though that were something bad. Hello! Of course it's political. It's a political process created and delineated by the cornerstone political document – our US constitution. You remember that the document, the user manual for our democracy. (Maybe it would be more popular if the Founders had entitled it, "Democracy for Dummies.")

Back when Republicans pushed to impeach Bill Clinton for perjury Democrats screamed, "politics," too. But Fine explained that Bill Clinton got himself in that jam by trying to put himself above the law. Never mind that what he lied about was hardly a matter of national security, all Fine cares about it [sic., s/b is] that he lied, committed a crime – perjury. The rest is simply back-story.

Fine says that there is now plenty of evidence that Bush and Cheney too have lied — more than once and about matters far more serious than Clinton's little walk on the wild side. Fien says that is why Congress should have begun impeachment hearings long ago. Not so much to remove Bush and Cheney from office, but as way of laying down constitutional markers, lines in the sand over which Congress was not about to allow the executive branch to simply ignore.


Fien adds that even now that their term in office is short, Congress should still proceed with impeachment hearings in order to reestablish and reinforce the constitutional balance – the whole "co-equal branches" business – as the Founders intended.

But Congress still has not done so. Will they?

Democrats worry that trying to impeach Bush and Cheney would blow back on them in the 2008 elections, by making them appear petty and politically motivated. A perception which is, of course their own damn fault. If they hadn't spent the last six years acting like such a pack of conniving little weasels maybe we'd be less likely to jump such a conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 08:36 PM

"Holy whiplash, Batman, isn't that exactly the opposite of what she's been saying since crowned Speaker last January? What happened there?"

Well, a person may walk in with one idea, and then change their mind when they receive new data. Despite the fact that political opponents will try to make hay out of this by accusing them of "flip-flopping," this is what rational people do.

I can't recall now what the issue was, but at one point, Arnold Schwarzenegger tried to get something passed in the California legislature, and suddenly there was a storm of opposition—from the people at large. Arnie thought about it, then said, "Okay, scratch that! Obviously, the people don't want it!" Because of things like this, I've come to the conclusion that Arnie is a helluva lot better governor than I expected him to be.

When Nancy Pelosi became Speaker of the House, she came in with an agenda. She's managed to get several of her agenda items passed, but the big one is ending the war and bringing the troops home. She's meeting lots of opposition on the Right, but she's still working hard at it. Now, her thinking on the "Impeach Bush" issue was that this would tie up Congress and be a major distraction, preventing the other items from being acted on. And, of course, she would have been right. But—she notes the clamor from a sufficiently large number of people to begin to reconsider the matter of impeachment. A substantial number of people seem to want it. So, like Arnie, she reconsiders the matter (note the literal meaning of the word: "re-consider.").

Elected officials are supposed to be responsive to what the people want.

That's what happened there.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 03:40 AM

I agree. BUT, isn't it a great article?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:34 PM

Can't argue with that...

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: GUEST,street cred
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 03:45 PM

Sicko is one dvd that the Chinese dvd pirates don't sell on the streets of Manhatten. Maybe they're sold out.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: DougR
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 04:24 PM

I agree with Kent. Our US healthcare system is not perfect but I don't believe it is as bad as the majority of you think. My first wife was in the hospital at one time for three months and the majority of the time in Intensive Care. The hospital bill was over a million dollars. It cost us not one dime because costs were covered by our HMO and Medicare. I have medicare/HMO and medical services provided by the VA. I have no complaints.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: pattyClink
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 05:26 PM

Doug, I'm real glad you have wraparound coverage, but most people don't. We had 1 emergency room visit, 1 week of hospitalization and some doctor visits this year. Out-of-pocket costs for deductibles and 'co-pays' so far have been $6,800.00 although we have insurance. This is serious money to us.

Besides that aspect, there are other deep problems in our system. If a doctor prescribes a vitamin or nutrient(for example glucosamine for an arthritic joint) it's not reimbursable because it's not a patentable drug concocted by a pharmaceutical company. If a doctor wants to use any progressive therapy besides drugs and cutting you open, chances are his patients are on their own to pay for it although they have 'insurance'.

Our care is 'rationed'. As little as possible is done until there is a big crisis, and then no cost is spared. Preventive care is a joke, our 'plan' pays for one 'free' cholesterol test per five years.

There are shortages of every kind of medical specialist. Yet years ago when we were students, we were actively discouraged from going into medicine, seats were severely restricted in all medical schools, to make sure there was a small supply of doctors so they could all be paid well. Now we have a giant aging population and not enough doctors. Would-be nurses are turned away from schools because there are not enough nurses trained as instructors.   

We all thought the AMA knew best for a long time. We were all wrong, and I'm really glad Sicko is getting people to talk about it.   The one simple truth the movie brought out--care should be about making people well, not about screwing them out of money. Radical concept-- how used to this money-grubbing system we have become.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 06:36 PM

DougR, I'm now a genuine disabled American vet, certified as such by the VA. I have Blue Cross PPO coverage through my job for both me and my wife; as such I pay either $10 or $20 for prescription medicine co-pays and $20 for an office visit co-pay. I can afford this.

I could NOT afford the meds I take were I retired or unemployed. My AO-related diabetes would cost me a lot of money, especially since the VA has (so far) turned down my claim in this area -- not 'Nam, so it's not presumptive, but the DMZ in Korea, where the burden of proof is on the applicant even if you served there during the period that the DoD admits they were spraying AO.

Nor is the service-related hearing loss yet granted -- even though I have a audiology test done in Basic Training that shows no loss, and one did at separation from active duty that shows a medium to severe loss.

My allowed disability is...tinnitus, about which little or nothing can be done.

The City is considering changing the health coverage in the 2009 fiscal year. If they do, it will cost me more. And not just me, a department head -- it will cost the single mothers more, it will cost the sewer workers more, the cops, the firefighters, the bus drivers. My raise will 1.9% next year -- the medical costs to the city went up 19.97%.

And I'm talking about the people who HAVE health care coverage. My nephew turns 19 in November, and unless he's in school he won't have health coverage.... And he's not alone, not by a very, very long shot.

Something has to be done and done soon. Consider this: when a hospital treats someone who doesn't or can't pay, you and I do. We pay in higher medical costs either directly or indirectly by higher premiums (which we might pay directly or through a lower cost of living increase).

WHAT that something is I don't know. Perhaps a sort of "minimum health care safety net" where someone admitted to the hospital would be put into a ward, no television, no phone, just basic health care. Perhaps some sort of national wellness program of mandatory inoculations and nationally-funded smoking cessation programs. Perhaps this program would require you to make minimum payments and if you smoke you pay more.

I don't know the answers, but I can see the problems. And something HAS to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 11:06 PM

I just got the word from my insurance company -- my son, who is learning disabled and a horrible student, will be officially uninsured on his 19th birthday in late September. My younger daughter is kicked off as on September 1 because she has graduated school - the only good news for her is that her new job will provide insurance effective late September......I guess we will find some catastrophic coverage for the three weeks of September. My older girl is still offically 'employed' by my company so I can pay her minimum wage for 20 hours a week and provide her medical insurance -- a healthy 25 year old at nearly $400 a month......

Something MUST be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 11:15 PM

Well, well, Doug R has had a good experience with the US medical system. I'll have to admit, that clinches it--obviously problems with the system don't exist. And anybody who says they do is a pinko Socialist--or whatever the current term of endearment is.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 11:37 PM

People are dying because they lack decent health insurance plan, some fall into ill health just because they have to choose between meds or food, others don't even have that choice. After watching Sicko it seems that even Cuba will take care of illegal immigrants better than their native country will, so we can't blame the immigrants anymore.

As for how to accomplish a decent health system, there are plenty of 3rd world nations that are good role models & almost all industrialized nations have ones that work well for them that we could take a look at.

If it means that some of the medical, insurance & pharmaceutical industries have to take a cut in their mega profits that's just to fucking bad, they've been raping & murdering us long enough. If it means that some law makers lose their free meal tickets that's just to bad too.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 11:57 PM

Actually Barry - there are plenty of non third world countries that are good role models......chck out the UK. If I paid in taxes for health care what I pay in insurance I swear to God I would not whine -- at least that way I would know if one of us got cancer or something ghastly, we would be taken care of -- while we contribute to the system...which is as it should be .......

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Slag
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 11:51 PM

Michael Moore Sicko??? So what else is new??

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 01:03 AM

Micheal Moore may be a bit overweight but sicko he ain't!

It's the people of this country that are the sick ones!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: Slag
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 11:00 PM

Yeah, yeah, that's IT! They're all sick! Not Me!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore 'Sicko'
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 11:33 PM

Actually, miraculously, when I met with my insurance person yesterday I got what looks like good news (hard to believe I know....!). My younger daughter loses her coverage as of 9.1 -- her job coverage kicks in on 9/21 so I wanted to buy a month's catastrophic coverage for her. Yes ma'am -- we can do that -- no problem -- just write me a check for $271 for ONE MONTH'S CATASTROPHIC COVERAGE WITH A $5000 DEDUCTIBLE.... FOR A 22 YEAR OLD .... all set.

BUT she also told me that a law has been passed (not sure if just here in Maine or everywhere) that allows kids to stay on coverage up to age 25 even if they don't go to school ..... IF the company you work for allows it. Well - I own the company and we are allowing it so as long as she is right (and I am awaiting confirmation) my son gets 6 more years of cover........however, it doesn't go into effect til late September so it won't work for my daughter so they still need that $271.......