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Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas
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Subject: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:40 PM For those of in the Dallas / Fort worth area, well, those of us who care, anyway, the Blarney Brothers cd release party for their new cd, "Lager than Life", will be at Poor David's pub on Lower Greenville in Dallas this Saturday night. Doors open at eight p.m. There is a $6 cover charge. They will of course be performing. It's sure to be great fun and a good show. Here is a link to Poor David's website for those who may need directions: Click here Hope to see you all there! -Branwen- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jed at Work Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:30 PM Ah - the Blarney's show will be great fun, to be sure. And if ya haven't been to Poor David's, ya might wanna go just to see one the nation's best and oldest acoustic music venues! It's decor is (ahem) rustic, spartan, but its sound system is excellent! The bar's full, and the music's great! And the Blarney Brothers are just plain old wonderful fun! 'tis is a show not to miss, if ya can make it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Barbara Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:57 PM And at the risk of renewing the warfare, ask them for the words to "Mrs. St**n don't rent to G*****s", while you're at it. I would still like to see them. Here. Blessings, Barbara |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 14 Sep 00 - 11:05 PM I will, Barbara. Incidentally, the new album will include that song. (and I sincerely hope to avoid the warfare.) how silly. -Branwen- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 15 Sep 00 - 04:37 PM - Incoming!! - B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 15 Sep 00 - 04:58 PM Here comes the second volvo . . . From Webster's Dictionary: silly -- adj. 1. Exhibiting a lack of good sense; stupid. 2. Frivolous. 3. Semiconscious; dazed. Somehow, the comment 'how silly' seems more aptly applied to those who ignore the prejudice, genocide, murder, rape, discrimination and abuse that the Travelling People have had to endure, and endure to this day, in this world. And Branwen, if you think that tossing off such a phrase doesn't hurt as deeply and as strongly as listening to 'Mrs. Stein Doesn't Rent To Gypsies Anymore', you are very mistaken; perhaps even silly. -- Aine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 15 Sep 00 - 05:13 PM oh, no, not again..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 15 Sep 00 - 05:37 PM Bet you a few gypsies and jews have heard those words spoken a couple of times, Bran And a few pregnant wommen who hate getting their tummies pushed, as well, I'd imagine! B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 15 Sep 00 - 05:41 PM Ok... I'm really not inclined to get into this debate again. It's nothing personal, and I'd rather it not be. The Blarney Brothers are good friends of mine, and the purpose of this thread was simply to let those in the area know about their upcoming CD release party. I'd prefer that this thread not turn into another discussion / debate on whether or not one tune that they do is or is not bigoted / racist, etc. I have no intention of getting involved in such a discussion again, as it is apparent to me that there are simply differing opinions on the subject, none of which are likely to be changed by its further discussion. -Branwen- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 15 Sep 00 - 06:40 PM Dear Branwen, Once more, for the record, I am not saying a word against the Blarney Brothers. I don't know them, so I will assume that they are singing this particular song because they are ignorant of the issues with which the Travellers have to deal. As I have said before, they are very talented, and I wish them well. However, I am deeply saddened by the inclusion of this song on their CD. For now this band will not only promote the prejudices in this song in their personal appearances; but, they will spread its poisin even further with this disc. It is, however, this particular song, and its ilk, that I will continue to say many words against. And Branwen, it is personal, deeply personal. The poet Rainer Maria Rilke wrote, 'Our fears are like dragons guarding our most precious treasures.' Well, I have released the dragon that was guarding one of my most precious treasures -- that of my identity. And although you may want to lift your skirts and walk over the bodies of generations of my people, I swear to God that I will be here to pull your face down close to their bones, so that you will never forget them. -- Aine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 15 Sep 00 - 06:42 PM like I said, I'm not getting into this again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 15 Sep 00 - 06:58 PM Metaphysically speaking, dear Branwen, you may turn away from me; but, one of my brothers or sisters will be there in front of you. Release the dragons that guard your compassion and empathy, and you will be free. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Mbo Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:04 PM I know how you feel, Branwen. Read this piece of hell I caught a while back.--Mr.Lincoln. --Matt |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:15 PM "Minds are like parachutes...they only function when open." I have read through the entire first thread about this issue and this one, too. First, Joe, I was thoroughly shocked at your first posting in the other thread when you told Larry to "shut up." I don't recall anyone using those words on here before and they seemed very offensive and presumptive to me. Larry has a history here of posting very knowledgable, first-hand experience with prejudice, esp. about the Roma people. I, for one, afford him a great deal of respect, as I do you, Joe. That just wasn't up to your usual standard of decorum. I understand your position on wanting to know the song before commenting. I am in agreement with Aine, Larry, and others that the few words we had, and title, said enough that I know I would not want to read nor hear the song. Branwen, I understand that you do not want to enter into any more discussion on the subject. Good luck to your friends on the new CD, but, I also agree with Aine on the unfortunate decision to include that song. When songs like that are funny, it is always at someone else's expense. I heard one today, on NPR, about 80 hillbillies in a haunted house. It sounded funny, but when I really listened to the words it was horrible and very stereotypical. I think that is the main problem with songs like these. They reinforce the stereotypes. Perhaps I read it wrong, but it seemed someone, in the other thread, made light of the song saying the Roma had trashed the woman's house, as though it was to be expected, since they were, after all, "Gypsies." (I could almost see the shoulder shrug.)That is a glaring example of why these types of songs should not be encouraged. Aine, Nyees Tuka (thank you), for "coming out"; it was a brave thing to do and I am proud to call you my sister. While I don't know if we have any Roma blood in my family, it is something I have always identified with, and considering how much of our family ancestry is wrapped up in Scotland, I'd say there is a fair chance I come by it honestly. Perhaps in a past life, eh? For anyone who is interested and who may have missed it the first time round, please read this thread, Song Appropriateness. While it started out about Irish songs, it became a memorable discussion on songs overall, if my memeory serves. Other threads which may be of interest, which you can find in the super search, include: "Xenophobia", and, "Coon Songs - Your Thoughts on Them." Whenever someone chooses to perpetuate sterotypes through these types of songs, a whole group of people pay the price in continued oppression and prejudice. There are so many good songs out there, I hope more people will choose them instead. Lash Drom (good road) to you all, kat
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Mbo Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:18 PM Well, you know us redhead..we have severe attitude problems and blow up over the least little thing! :-| |
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Subject: Down With the Thought Police From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Sep 00 - 09:22 PM Well, I expect the lyrics to be posted, and I refreshed the Doesn't Rent to Gypsies request thread. If Larry or anybody else tries to intimidate people into not posting the lyrics, I will become extremely angry. My remark in the other thread is the one and only time I have told somebody to shut up in this Forum, and I think my remark was appropriate. Somebody requested lyrics to a song so they could find out what it was all about, and Larry and others jumped all over the requester (not that Larry had ever heard the song or seen the lyrics himself). I call that censorship by intimidation, and I think it's wrong. The same thing went on in the "Folk Nazi" thread. The poor person who posted the term meant no harm at all, and yet he got battered with two long threads of criticism. This is supposed to be an open forum, a place where people can free to express ideas. I sympathize with oppressed people, whoever and wherever they are. However, no matter how righteous your cause is, you still have no right to suppress ideas here by bullying people into silence. We don't need Thought Police. We can think things out for ourselves. So, shut up, already, and let somebody post the damn lyrics so we can see for ourselves. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 15 Sep 00 - 09:56 PM I know the song Joe, remember? Áine as well, I recall B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST Date: 15 Sep 00 - 10:39 PM um.... if you guys are going to do this, could you start a new thread or at least do it in the old one? Preferably start a new thread.... I think that considering that neither this thread or the original were intended for discussion of bigotry and / or racism in music or in a particular song, a new thread might be in order, especially considering that there are probably a lot of other people who would be interested in discussing this subject, not just in the case of this song, but in regard to all music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 15 Sep 00 - 10:47 PM I am not able to recognise that right of free speech so that it be used to stereotype or ridicule anybody, Joe, and you don't know me for being one of the most politically correct, around here, but I, as an Irishman, would consider it an act of treason to sing a song that glorifies, or continues to perpetuate, suspicion and harassment of a weaker minority. I don't care WHAT country they come from, or what religion they are!! If I go to see you play, and you perpuate that myth... I'm outta there, quicker than a skitter through a goat's ass, and I'll head off to some blues joint, where there's none of that kind of crap. If there is one thing I despise about elements of the right-wing, it's how extremely cruel they can be. I hold no truck with right-wing thought, at the best of times, but there are those among them who want to keep that ole pot a-stirrin'. So if actually your gripe is that the lyrics need to be in public view, to sasisfy the need you have to fill that criterion of free-speech, well, sure, Joe, all I can say is that kind of 'free-speech' can just go in the bucket. The reason the world is in the state it is in, is because people have to keep shoving the past down others' throats, and telling them never to forget it. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:06 PM Dear Joe, For the life of me, I can't see how you can make the statement This is supposed to be an open forum, a place where people can free to express ideas" and then turn around and say "So, shut up, already". It sure looks like a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I haven't even read the 'folk nazi' thread, so I believe that you're mixing your apples and oranges on that one. I agree wholeheartedly that none of us here on the Mudcat should bully anyone into silence -- and that includes yourself. I haven't told anyone on this thread or the other thread to be silent. I have expressed my ideas about this song, which I do know, and I never told anyone not to post the lyrics. If you'll read the other thread, I even thanked the original poster for requesting the lyrics. My posts on this thread, however, have been to express my ideas about how some people seem to think that they can simply 'dismiss' anyone that disagrees with them. I reacted to Branwen's 'I am not amused' attitude in her comment of 'how silly', and I had a perfect right to do so. If she had not written those two words, in fact, I never would have posted to this thread at all. I wholly agree with you that this is an open forum, and please God that it always remains so. The best way to effect change will always be through discussion and debate. However, it is Max that has the last say about who is told to shut up, and not yourself. I've re-read the other thread, and I can't see where anyone was threatened, bullied or intimidated. Unfortunately, some people believe that anyone who disagrees with them, especially when that disagreement is emotional and strongly worded, is out to bully them. That is entirely a subjective reaction and cannot be determined by anyone, except the person reacting to the disagreement. -- Áine
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:11 PM Aine- My intention was not to imply that I feel you should be dismissed, simply because we happen to disagree on this issue, or that I want you to be. I feel that everyone has a right to their opinion, and I completely respect yours. I simply meant that it has become apparent to me through the first thread on this subject that we all feel very strongly about our respective positions, and that it is unlikely that any of us will change our mind on this issue based on what it said by another, and I therefore see no reason in arguing or getting upset about it. Again, I completely respect and understand your position, I just don't see any point is arguing about it. -branwen- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:40 PM Dear Branwen, Thank you for your last post. I do believe that you respect my position; however, I can't say that I believe that you understand it. I doubt seriously if you have ever experienced the fear that I have, or have ever been a subject of loathing, as I have. Perhaps that is why I have spoken so strongly to the subject of this song. I sincerely want you to understand. I never intended to bully you in any way, and I hope that you will always believe that. The passion in my responses was meant as a plea to you, and the others that see no harm in this song, to 'walk a mile in my shoes' and hopefully, feel the pain that the attitudes promulgated by this type of song can bring to other human beings. I am not usually one of the folks here at the Mudcat that 'rant' very often. In fact, hardly ever. You won't find my name in most of the 'opinion' threads here. As a matter of fact, I hardly ever even read them. This has been one of the rate instances where I could not keep silent, and I felt that I had the chance to light a wee candle in the darkness. I see, however, that I have failed. But I will pray with all my heart that you will see the light one day, and rejoice in the freedom of the heart that it will bring you. I wish you a long life filled with knowledge; but, keep an eye on those dragons, OK? -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:44 PM Áine, if we have a speaker on the podium who is trying to express an idea, and there are hecklers all over the audience who are shouting and doing their best to prevent the speaker from speaking, what is the appropriate response? I think it's to get the hecklers to shut up, and to allow the speaker to say what he has to say. If you know the lyrics and don't want to post them, that's one thing. If you badger and bully in order to prevent somebody else from posting the lyrics, that's quite another matter. I very much doubt that I would choose to sing this song if it's as bad as it has been described - but how would I know? If I did sing a song you thought offensive, and you chose to walk out of the concert, that would be an appropriate response on your part - I've done that myself, on occasion. I might even walk out on the Blarney Brothers if they sang this particular song. If you were to climb up on the stage and attempt to prevent me from singing the song, then I think it would be appropriate for me to ask the ushers to assist you in making your statement by walking out of the concert. This is not a concert. This is a discussion forum. Somebody wants to discuss a song, but how can we discuss it if the bullies around here won't even allow us to see the lyrics? I'm not looking for somebody who espouses the point of view expressed by the lyrics - I just want to see the darn song, and you're preventing me from doing that. So let me see the song, and THEN we can talk about the SONG, not about the person who posted the damn thing. -Joe Offer- And as for the guest who didn't see fit to use a name, this is a song that appears on the Blarney Brothers CD, so it seems to be appropriate to discuss it in this thread. So go piss up a rope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:46 PM No, Joe, wrong analogy. It's where the performer comes down and forces you to listen to it. B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:57 PM And Joe. Please dont fantasise. How am I or anyone else going to prevent anybody from posting these lyrics? Where's this bullying? You only read my words. You don't hear my voice. And 'bullying' is physically impossible. Remember. I'm half a world away. For chrissakes get a life. There's no 'bullying' going on around here. There may be 'strong' words, then, again there may be strong feelings. But the 'bullying' argument is a cop-out, I'm afraid. There's no red herrings here. Just no reasons to prove a point by posting these lyrics. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:25 AM Joe, you are being illogical when you say, "This is supposed to be an open forum, a place where people can (be) free to express ideas." Then tell us to "shut up." You also know that the Folk Nazi threads were about much more than what Mbo said in another thread. Those threads discussed so much more and were so informative that to say they were only about criticising one person is disingenuous. No one is bullying. No one is denying you any rights to a damn song. You are making a mountain out of a molehill and being offensive about it. Larry and Aine both posted very incredible information about the Roma people and that is being ignored, i.e. not validated, because of your mighty "crusade." None of us can, nor would want to, physically keep any lyrics from being posted, so I am sure, at some point, you will get to read the bloody thing. Perhaps you should take your own advice now and "shut up." kat |
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Subject: Rent to Gypsies song From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:53 AM OK, so if there's no attempt at censorship by bullying here, prove it. Let the song be posted without further protest, and then let's talk about it. Take advantage of the discussion at hand to discuss the plight of the Travelling People. Once the song is posted, then it can serve to illustrate just what it is that people are talking about. In fact, one of you who objects to the song might want to post it yourself (with an appropriate disclaimer, of course). If you haven't been waging a crusade of intimidation against the posting of this song, prove it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:58 AM Protest = Bullying. Where have I heard that before? B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:02 AM Joe, are you trying to bully someone who has heard this song and has known personal hurt because of this song? That's what it sounds like. Turning the tables can be endless and non-productive. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Lepus Rex Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:24 AM Joe, it looks like you're the only one who's bullying. The folks who got upset were nagging, not bullying. You wrote that 'if Larry or anybody else tries to intimidate people into not posting the lyrics, I will become extremely angry.' How were they intimidating anyone? I agree that they pushed it a little far, but, hey, that's their thing. You've been rude, insulting, vulgar, and, with the 'become extremely angry' and 'I expect this song to be posted' cracks, threatening. Reeelax, man. You're not going to get your point across by lording it over them. Brendy, Áine, and the others probably did the same for their cause with their hassling of those who disagreed with them. How is what you're doing any better and not worse than what they did? ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:52 AM Well, you know, it just doesn't happen very often around here that somebody tries to prevent a song from being posted. In fact, I don't think it has ever happened before. It seems to me that far more controversial songs have been posted here, and then we've had a sensible discussion of the song. For some reason, this one seems to have become a cause celebre and a number of people don't want the rest of us to even see the song. They want to jump and shout and say how terrible it is, but they don't want the rest of us to be able to make a judgment for ourselves. I can see all the justification if the world for wanting to criticize such a song and the sentiments expressed in it. I just simply can't understand why it shouldn't be posted. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:53 AM I just have a problem with the term 'bullying'. Remember that the word 'war' was not introduced by myself or Áine. This virtual bullying started with the 'coat-trailing' further up the thread. I don't feel 'bullied' by what Joe or anyone has to say, just as he, and everybody else, should not feel 'bullied' by my form of directness. I have no control over what is posted here; none of us have (metaphorically speaking), so how on earth can I prevent these lyrics from being posted? 'Bullying' doesn't come into it. When our protests are called 'bullying', well then I can see that all other alternative arguments are well and truly exhausted, and it is invariably the last resort of those who need an extra stick to walk around with. Tough, if you don't like my views. Unfortunately, though, when subjects like this are raised, well then I'm entitled to my opinion as everyone else, and you will, at some stage have to convince me that you're right, just the same as you have to do with other people. Be careful about the term 'bullying', though, if you don't mind. We wouldn't want to transmit any subliminal bias here after all, now, would we? B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: JedMarum Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:56 AM Holy sh*t! I walk away from this 'invitation to a party' thread for a little while and walk back into a fire storm! What the heck happened? It's very simple; the Blarney Brothers are a great Dallas area band, with an important show at one of the nation's oldest and best acoustic music venues this weekend. These are warm hearted, fun loving, hard working, talented musicians with no idea of the tempest that has brewed in this tea cup over one of their performance numbers - and I promise you, not even an inkling of the heinous crime that has been laid at their feet. For me the somg is no more insidious then jokes about banjo players, bodhran players, Republicans, Democrats (in fact those 2 are sometimes nasty), blondes, red heads, Irishman, Scotman ... all play on generalities and stereotypes, and point to the fun and humor we can find in all of our life situations. If you see evil beyond that, in this song, well so be it. Don't listen to it. Don't laugh. I hope you enjoy the Poor David's show Branwen. Please give my very best to the lads. I'm working elsewhere tomorrow, or I'd be there myself. I'll also pass this link on to Matt or David. Maybe they would care to respond to the thoughts expressed in this thread themsleves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:58 AM So, Brendy, since you know the song, why don't you post it so I can spend a minute reading it over and say, "Yeah, Brendy, you're right. The song stinks." Which is probably what I would say about it. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:59 AM Jed? Fuck off. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 16 Sep 00 - 02:03 AM The reason being, Joe, that I don't go around promulgating all this stuff. I thought it was 'heresy' enough pointing someone to 'Land of Hope and Glory' once. I don't spread trash. Call it a weakness of mine B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 16 Sep 00 - 02:08 AM Joe -- I'm sure you'll get your wish. But it'll have to come from someone other than myself. Jed -- No, this issue is not 'simple' by any means. And if by 'Matt and David', you mean members of the Blarney Brothers, then by all means send them here and let them defend the song themselves. Agus a Bhrendy -- A chuisle, gabh ar luí anois direach. Tá tú ro-thuirseach ar fad a bheith a caint le chiall anois. Mo ghrá thú agus coladh sámh. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:13 AM Well, I have to admit there are a few requested songs that I've had, but didn't post because I objected to them for one reason or another. I kind of hope that we might agree that if and when the song is posted, we attack the song, not the posting of it or the person who posted it. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: JedMarum Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:23 AM Áine - sorry, I maent the original post was simple; Branwen was saying "hey come on out to the show this weekend" - afterall, Mrs Stein is only one of hundreds the Blarney's sing. I realize the controversy is not simple and don't want to trivialize your feelings about the song. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:48 AM Reading both of these threads, I am amazed at the reactions. I've always been one to push the ability to laugh and not take ourselves too seriously. There is always a line though isn't there? Through lack of education, "Gypsy" has not received the same status as nazi or nigger. Would we really be having this discussion if someone requested the words to a song by the "Aryan Brothers" titled "Them Niggers Stole My Watermelons?" Just curious. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Walking Stereotype Date: 16 Sep 00 - 10:44 AM I have to say I'm with Jed on this. Good grief, people! This was an invitation to a party! That's all, simply put. Barbara, you obviously were aware of the possible repercussions when you asked for the lyrics, as you censored yourself when asking for them. Could you not have asked for them in a PM? Stereotypes are funny because there is SOME truth to them. Just ask any folk musician about what real folk is. I live in a HIGHLY diverse neighborhood (which I love) and see stereotypes ever single day, several times a day. I'm one. My friends are. My family is stereotypical. For pete's sake, we all are! (Which is made very obvious in this thread.) If we censor folk music of any type, whether we like it or not, we lose chunks of our history. Our history is who we are, good and bad, right and wrong. If you're offended, upset, angry: don't listen. Rant and rave all you want, but don't attempt to censor. We are, after all, a Democracy here at the Mudcat. Are we not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jon Freeman Date: 16 Sep 00 - 10:48 AM I'm puzzled by this thread too. The people who are protesting about this song may well have valid points but it is impossible to form any conclusions without seeing the words. What does that this particular song contain that is not contained in other songs in the DT? Surely just about every form of injustice is expressed in folk music. Has this one been outlawed by the US government or what? Maybe it is a bad song but I can not accept the arguements of those who are willing to speak so strongly against it yet refuse to produce any hard evidence. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:41 PM If there's someone out there who has the words of this sontg and wants to share them, they can post them here. Nobody can stop them. Nothings going to happen to them. Hell, if they are paranoid that someone onthe Mudcat is going to hate them because they've posted the words, they can dump their cooklie. Th question of censorship doesn't come into it, and I can't see why the word keeps on cropping up. Censorship is when someone uses their power to stop something being sprinted or said or whatever. That hasn't happened here. It can't happen here. It's not a public gathering where it is possible to shout someone down, anymore tha yoe can heckle a radio programme. It's not in the nature of the baste.
As with most disagreements there are a couple of intertwined issues here.
One is to do with censorship in general - "you've got a right to say what you want to and I'll defend it even if I disagree" versus "you may have a right to say what you want to, but in some cases you might have to do it over my dead body". Maybe the US constitution holds the former view, but that doesn't end the argument. The US constitution has been known to get things wrong.
And there are the disagreements over the song itself - and here it breaks down into one disagreement about whether this is a song that propagates disparaging stereotypes Gypsies, and a separate disagreement about whether whether one propagating disparaging stereotypes of Gypsies is something that matters or not. And there's another one about whether it'd be a good idea for someone to post the words of the bloody song.
The bottom line for me is that it is important to recognise that the treatment given to Gypsies and other travelling people, has been (and often continues to be)terrible and shameful. This should never be trivialised, any more than the treatmetn given historically to Jews or black people or native people. And however we disagree about the other issues, I hope we all agree about that. |
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Subject: Song Posting Policy From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:20 PM I posted to this thread in response to a complaint that people were creating a bullying atmosphere that might make it uncomfortable for somebody to post the lyrics to a song. I also received a complaint that people were harassing somebody for posting songs that were sympathetic with the Orange cause in Northern Ireland. I haven't checked into that situation, but I will. A couple of years ago, a regular Mudcatter was badgered and harassed out of regular participation in the Forum, simply because some people thought he was too stuffy in the way he posted messages. This particular controversy began several weeks ago in the Doesn't Rent to Gypsies thread. Somebody posted a request for the lyrics to a song that may be offensive to the Travelling People. A person who apparently had not even heard the song responded with a series of tirades that condemned the original requester for simply requesting a song. A strongly worded statement in favor of gypsies and against discrimination would have been appropriate. An attack on a person for requesting or posting a song is not. OK, here is the policy. I wrote it, because Max usually asks me to write the policy statements. If you wish to appeal this policy, you may appeal it to Max. The Mudcat Cafe is a music discussion forum. Other activities are permitted and encouraged, but the primary focus of the Forum is music. The discussion of music is to be given special protection. Harassment which discourages or attempts to prevent the requesting, posting, or discussion of a song will not be tolerated, no matter how controversial the song may be.The song should be posted. Thank you. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:28 PM There's that word 'bullying' again. Just in a different form. You're welcome Joe Good point, Spaw. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:52 PM Interesting, Joe. I responded to private requests by others who felt their firsthand knowledge of the lyrics and the oppression of Travellers was being ignored and trivialised. I still saw no "Harassment which discourages or attempts to prevent the requesting, posting, or discussion of a song." On the contrary, people who felt strongly about the song and knew it, did not harass, they merely posted their feeelings backed up with personal experiences and historical fact; it's called educating. So, there was plenty of discussion; no one said "don't post this song"; and no one said, "do not ask for the lyrics of this song." Spaw, excellent point. It would also be interesting to know how many among us still use the term "gyped", when they feel they've been cheated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Sep 00 - 02:33 PM "A song that may be offensive to the Travelling People" - if a song is offensive to the Travelling People it should be offensive to all of us.
As InOBU said "What next, the Horst Wessel song? How about - don't rent to Blacks - Puerto Ricans - Jews..." I thought he was pretty restrained, especially for InOBU, who is not the most restrained of Catters.
I'm surprised noone's posted it yet - that has the effect of seeing to imply it's worse than it probably actually is. But I haven't seen the Horst Wessel song either, and I have to admit to being a little bit prejudiced against that one, and I don't think I need to apologise for that.
Maybe it's time someone posted the words, and lanced the boil. But as I said in my last post, the song itself is only one out of a range of disagreements here. If it turned out it wasn't the least bit offensive about Gypsies (or about liberal-minded Jews), that wouldn't sort out all the issues involved. But maybe it might let us leave the other issues to be explored again in less cluttered context at a future time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Lonesome EJ Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:15 PM If someone has the lyrics,please send them to me in a personal message.I'm a big boy,and would like to make up my own mind about them. LEJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jon Freeman Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:31 PM I would like to see them too. As it stands, I know that Peter Krug, Alan Dameron and now the Blarney Brothers have recorded it. I have read one poster that I respect describe it as "A great song" and another say "I gotta say, I like it. Part of the humor of it, is that it has a very lively gypsy melody". I have also read comments from people I respect who obvoiusly dislike the song. It would be nice to have the oppertunity to judge for myself. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: IvanB Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:43 PM Frankly, Joe, I'm greatly disappointed, and I'd like a little clarification. You state that the policy stated above is was written by you because 'Max usually asks me to write the policy statements.' Does this mean that Max has decided a policy is needed on this subject and asked you to write it or that YOU felt a policy was needed and wrote it on the basis that you usually write the policy statements? I see the policy as a start down that slippery slope of censorship. Who is going to determine what is 'harrassment?' What is going to be done about it? I've been proud of the fact that Mudcat has been one of the most open forums on the internet, and I don't see the need for policies like the above. So there were emotional posts about a lyrics request. The truth is, that in a medium such as this NOBODY can force someone to post or not post lyrics to a song. As has been stated above, if someone feels they may take some sort of heat for what they post, they can lose there cookie for the time needed to post as a guest. Whoever decided that the above policy should be posted, I hope that it will not lead to a lessening of the freedom we've all had to be ourselves on Mudcat. |
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