DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments

Subject: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 08:42 AM

Any fledgling folk performer watching young Dylan's early attempts at stagecraft must have been heartened by some of the footage shown on BBC 4 last night. Struggling with tuning and capoing his guitar, followed by strangled harmonies with Joan Baez, shows how easy it is to look (and sound) rank amateur at times.

The message going out to all those performers who feel inadequate and embarrassed in front of their audience - stick with it - Bob did.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,JohnMc
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:05 AM

Agreed, but didn't you feel that something must have happened in his creative soul to start singing and performing as he did when he had written the post-folk masterpieces as exemplified by "Love minus zero' etc ? Even his demeanour changed in the film.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:33 AM

What happened to his creative soul is maybe what happens when you increase your exposure and therefore experience - with it comes confidence and expression. That's why it irks me to read of folks not giving support and encouragement to others; the subject of other threads here on mudcat.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:44 AM

I am guessing that the BBC showed the new film from Murray Lerner that consists of footage from the Newport Folk Festivals?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:54 AM

I couldn't get over how young he looked at his first Newport. Loved the all-too-brief clips of Fred McDowell & Muddy Waters in the first film. I'm not a great Bob follower but I've always enjoyed his early work. The early Newport casualness- everyone on stage waiting their turn- was refreshing, too. The last show with audience baying for more,and more encores showed the pressure popular performers are always under.

RtS
(In my case, after one number audience (?) bay for less.)

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:58 AM

He is a performer who will do one of two things--because there is no middle ground: He will be fantastic and give a brilliant performance or he will bomb. Dylan has the status of being the single most prolific and greatest of songwriters, and IMO the rest of us will have to keep hoping we write as well even if not as frequently.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:09 AM

For a good description of the fun and games at Newport 1965, see Joe Boyd's excellent book "White Bicycles". He does lay some hoary old chestnuts to rest, such as the one about Pete Seeger supposedly taking an axe to the PA cables.

I think I spotted Joe in the Murray Lerner film last night (at the Dylan/Butterfield soundcheck), but maybe it's somebody else in the same hat.

I thought the best bit of the film was the MC (Peter Yarrow?) in fear of his life from the baying punters after Dylan's electric set.

Looking forward to the Scorsese DVD, there's some telling edits in it!

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Rog Peek
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:45 AM

I completely forgot it was on. Are they repeating?
Rog

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,edthefolkie
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 12:08 PM

Well it was on BBC4 and they repeat EVERYTHING on that channel ad nauseam so I imagine another opportunity will come along soon.

Actually there were 4 programmes.

(1)A new BBC documentary with mind boggling items such as "The Blues and Soul Train" perpetrated by Granada TV in 1963. They (unsuccessfully) attempted to make a BR steam loco look like "The General". Muddy Waters, Sister Rosetta Tharpe etc. were then induced to perform on Chorlton station platform in the rain. Sister Rosetta arrived in a pony and trap and whipped out a Gibson SG. Indescribable.

(2) At least some of the new Scorsese film spliced together from the Murray Lerner one and others.

(3)The documentary about the lost BBC TV play featuring Dylan (A Madhouse on Castle Street).

(4) The Murray Lerner Newport film.

First time I've sat in front of the telly for 3 hrs for I don't know how long! Gave up at midnight and recorded the rest.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 03:04 PM

finished at 1.45 - not sure if I'll watch it again.

the puzzling thing is that that first album of Dylan's that was supposed to have been made in two shakes of lamb's tail. the guitar playing was supposed to be about two years earlier but it sounds a damn sight sight better that he did last night.

I don't suppose we'll ever get to the bottom of it.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 04:56 PM

Wow, you people are fussy! Complaining about guitarplaying on a 45 year old live performance!!!!   Jeesh!!!

In all seriousness, be sure to check out the Murray Lerner film "Festival" which was recorded at Newport over the course of several years. It also ends with the electric performance. You can see the director of Woodstock probably learned a few tricks from Murray before they created their opus.

"Festival" captures some magnificent as well as some very dated performances.   The comments from the audience are especially interesting.   Lerner is sitting on an archive of film and audio performances from Newport. They used some of the footage for the "No Direction Home" documentary and Lerner just released this new film.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 05:03 PM

I enjoyed the 1963 Newport stuff. Dylan was nice and relaxed, and sang well. Didn't like Joan Baez' harmony lines.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 05:07 PM

No matter how quickly that first eponymous album may have been recorded, it was made under ideal, quiet studio conditions, with the added luxury of recording multiple "takes."

It shouldn't be too surprising that the instrumental playing captured in the grooves would be superior to ("cleaner" than) whatever might be captured from a live performance at a large outdoor venue, especially when the performance in question was controversial and therefore probably nervousness-inducing!

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 05:20 PM

Let us draw a merciful veil over Queen Joanie's unfortunate habit of howling along to Prince Bobby. We can all be a bit silly when we're young.
Fascinating films...especially interesting to watch the development of the Dylan persona over the successive years at Newport.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,The Pragmatist
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 07:29 PM

Ah, yes; yet again, the once anointed King and Queen of folk song resurface. I love some of Dylan's lyrics, though I never wholly liked his enigmatic persona and rather nasal delivery. Moreover, while he was, primarily, a creator of songs, Baez was seen as THE interpreter of traditional ballads. Some would (and still do) argue that he was never truly a "folk singer." Mind, this is from my first memory of them, circa 1961 or '62. What has transpired in the years since convinces me that he was a seminal musical force(if an acquired
taste). She, on the other hand, seems to be lost somewhere between folk, commercial and political personas, depending upon the time and place. In the long term, I fear her impact will be forgotten long before his.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 08:08 PM

Hey, I think that Bob Dylan desereve being graded on a "curve"... I mean, for gosh sakes, it was like '63 or so... Tell me who it was who was out there trying to bring a new sound to folks music???

The Weavers??? LOL...

The Kingston Trio??? LOL...

The Pozo Seco Singers??? LOL...

No, it was Bob Dylan who had done his homework, studied all forms of folk music and had figured out that if he could bring a mix of norhtern stiffy folk and southern blues to the table that he would indeed have brought folk further down the road...

Tell me again who else was making the effort...

Bobert (die-hard Dylan defender)

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:01 PM

Those who knew Dylan and Baez well will never forget them.

As for Joan's role in life, she always said that she was basically by instinct some sort of politician for certain causes that moved her...one who just happened to get her message across mainly by singing. And she made no apologies for so being. She was not confused about her role. Other people were confused about it, because they had their expectations (based on something she'd down before), and they bloody well wanted them fulfilled! I can well recall being quite frustrated when she released some almost exclusively political stuff in the late 60's, early 70's, because I wanted to hear her do more modern ballads like she was doing in '65 (when she recorded some great Dylan tunes). Well, I had my expectations! ;-)

People were confused about Bob all the time for much the same reason. They had their expectations (based on something he'd done before), and their expectations weren't being met! Boo hoo!

A fan whose expectations have been frustrated by an artist's change in direction is a lot like a jilted lover...but in this case it's a jilted lover who never actually knew the beloved. It's a one-way obsession. Jilted lovers can be real pests. In rare cases they can even be quite dangerous.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:22 AM

Greg, because I'm a polite person I try to make allowances for Queen Joan Approximately's insistence on "enhancing" Bob's performances. After all one used to get similar, er, "harmonies" in English folk clubs. And I liked Joan singing Plaisir D'Amour, but then I was 17 or something.   

But I've got to say both my daughter and I have now both been caught yelling "SHADDAP JOAN!!!" at the TV. And my son's reaction on walking in from the pub just as she was howling along was....unprintable. He is a Motley Crue fan though so what does he know?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:49 AM

Well, I've always been a severe Dylan sceptic (made worse by his usurping of Nic Jones' Canadee-i-o that time!) but I sat though that Newport set tranfixed, thinking "Well, he wasn't half bad actually..." I recorded the other stuff and will definitely watch it all. Just don't get me started on his harmonica playing though. I'll never yield on that.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:04 AM

I like some things Dylan has done but I think he has been simply a unique songwriter who has written some of the most profound lyrics in song and so it doesn't matter what I like.

I found the scenes at the railway station with Muddy Waters and Sister Rosseta Tharp earth shattering. We were all in tears . We live not 200 yards from what was Chorlton Station where I believe the film was shot. In one scene Chorlton appears on a railway sign. She stands their in an enoumous coat looking like Auntie Thingy and plays the guitar like well like Sister Rosseta Tharp!

Before we start the campaigne to get a Blue Plaque put up on the remaining railway bridge can anybody confirm where the film was made?

Cheers

Les, obviously, in Chorlton

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:11 AM

Les: like you, we sat enraptured at home watching Sister Rosetta hoicking out that guitar and blasting off. Certainly a blue plaque job, preferably a vido screen on some nearby wall permanently playing that clip?
Pity Sister R T wasn't more widely publicised in those days. Alas, most English girls followed the Baez route for how to be a folksingers. A few more Tharpes and a few less warblers would have improved the 60's scene no end.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:13 AM

'" I recorded the other stuff and will definitely watch it all. Just don't get me started on his harmonica playing though. I'll never yield on that.'

Good for you, Steve. Great, inn't it?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:15 AM

Les, it was Chorlton cum Hardy! But the Beeb got it wrong - it was 1964.

See link

http://www.mdmarchive.co.uk/archive/showartefact.php?aid=2965&uid=4

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:16 AM

Sorry Les, that was me...trying to work and post at the same time.

Here's the link again

http://www.mdmarchive.co.uk/archive/showartefact.php?aid=2965&uid=4

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:23 AM

Interesting that the only people to surface with recordings of Madhouse in Castle Street had only turned the reel-to-reel on for the Dylan songs. Nobody was wasting precious tape on David Warner and co!

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:33 AM

Thanks Ed,

The details on the poster or flyer describe "Wilbraham Road Station" which would have been the next stop after Chorlton (-cum-Hardy). The line was disused alla Beeching.

Chorlton Station is now Morrisons super market and Wilbraham Road Station is lost underneath modern houses I think, still the railway bridge associated with Wilbraham Road Station still exists. The line has been turned into the Fallowfield Loop cycle way. Still a place for a plaque though.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:37 AM

Sorry,
dodgy information. Wilbraham Road Station was after the junction of Alexandar Park Road Wilbraham Road. I'll go and get me bike out and have a look and see what's left of the Station.

Cheers

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 10:24 AM

"the puzzling thing is that that first album of Dylan's that was supposed to have been made in two shakes of lamb's tail. the guitar playing was supposed to be about two years earlier but it sounds a damn sight sight better that he did last night"

I'm with the wee drummer on this one - I first heard Dylan's album in our school music room in 1962 - the response as I recall being "what the **** is this!!" - I can remember being appalled at the harmonica playing (I'd been playing harmonica for a couple of years at that time). The guitar playing on the album was vastly superior to that demonstrated at the festival, and it does raise a question.

Also interesting to note that Donovan's guitar picking was superior at that time!! I've always had my doubts about whether or not Dylan played guitar on "Don't Think Twice" too.

Don't get the wrong idea here - I am a big Bob Dylan fan and cover many of his songs. Not that big a fan though that I would spend good money to witness his "going through the motions" live gigs however.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: john f weldon
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:37 AM

I saw Dylan fingerpick Don't Think Twice on TV shortly after the album came out. He also played and sang well on other songs. He had good days and bad. (Still does.)
Also, in those bygone days, fumbling around on stage was part of the persona of many folkies; they were being "authentic".

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:52 AM

Less of the "were" john

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:53 AM

Yeah. Someone has to show the world how to fumble.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 12:09 PM

I actually find Bob Dylan painful to listen to, but I've been thoroughly enjoying the radio show. The one on Saturday evening on Radio Two (eyes) was a corker; he comes over like Zappa's 'Central Scrutiniser' meets Vic Reeves' Inspector Fowler - and he played some top tunes to boot.

As a result I watched the BBC4 footage with an open heart; a fascinating document, if only for how willing the folk-left were to subscribe to such celebrity cults no matter how ill-founded.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 12:10 PM

Indeed. ;-) Fumbling around onstage with capo, struggling with tuning, adjusting harmonica holder, etc...are all old and beloved folk devices which greatly assist the performer in entertaining the audience between numbers and adding a bit of the "common touch". Most people only object to it when Bob Dylan does it. ;-) Why? Because they resent his extraordinary degree of success and the fact that he became a legend in his own time. That's my theory.

They would object to it if Joan Baez did it too, but her performances are generally so meticulously well done in every respect that they must find something else to object to instead!

As for harmonica playing, most people set about to slavishly replicate a specific set of well known blues riffs, which they they repeat ad nauseum forever and ever, having arrived at what they would term harmonica virtuosity. Bob, on the other hand, tended to do melody and harmony lines a lot as well as trills and percussive punctuation, and he also did the blues riffs on blues numbers. In other words, he played a lot more "straight harp" than "cross harp". I also play a lot more straight harp than cross harp. I prefer straight harp, and am not too good at cross harp. Bob sometimes played the harmonica very well, sometimes not so well at all, depended on the occasion. When he played it well, he was fecking awesome!

In other words...piss off, you bloody, nitpicking sods. ;-)

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 12:36 PM

While Dylan does not have a great, or even a good, voice, no-one sings Dylan quite like Dylan - although don't ask me to explain. As for his harmonica playing, it fits the songs perfectly. A very rough sound, admittedly; but then I am an old punk, so.....

As for Joan Baez adding harmony, I liked it. It did enhance Dylan's performances. I would rather hear her sing that Peggy Seeger, who has ruined more recordings than even the Jorainairs. Now that is screaching. She then compounds the sin by playing banjo. What did McCall see in her?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 12:38 PM

That should have been:

I would rather hear her sing THAN Peggy Seeger, who has ruined more recordings than even the JORDANAIRS.

Sorry. Fingers are faster than the brain.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 12:41 PM

"a fascinating document, if only for how willing the folk-left were to subscribe to such celebrity cults no matter how ill-founded."

The folk-left supported people like Dylan and Baez because they were original, good, a bit lefty and their was no folk-right much.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 02:49 PM

Wednesday night/Thursday morning - half past midnight till nearly 3 a.m. - for repeats of the Arena programmes.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:24 PM

Dylan is a great singer. He is moderately ok as a vocalist. IMO.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Trevorr
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 05:23 PM

anyone know who was singing the Cuckoo on the Sunday night program with the banjo in background???? Many thanks!! (p.s. was it the Cuckoo song?)

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Trevorr
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 05:29 PM

Re my last message: that was in the 9pm Program: Dylan's Folk: The Pure, The Bad and the holy. Was after the name of the oldish guy who was singing with his mate on the banjo...i'm sure it was the cuckoo song?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Declan
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 07:40 PM

Trevorr,

That was Doc Watson and it was the cuckoo song.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 04:18 AM

I've always taken it as read that much of the guitar work on Freewheelin' was by session men - Bruce Langhorne on Corrinna is the only one that's fessed up to on the album sleeve, but that rolling harmojcally adventurous stuff on Girl of the North Country - screams 'clever session man' at most people who have played guitar longer than five minutes.

I've never resented this - and I will always be a lifelong devotee of Dylan - guitar, harmonica, songwriter. I don't require him to do all his guitar playing, answer his own phone, make his own breakfast, design his own record sleeve, etc.

All I would say is this. Put the first album on your record player. Close your eyes. Imagine Bob is standing there in the corner, a twenty year old man, and I think you will conclude you are in the presence of genius.

That guy on the early footage of Newport was just bashing his guitar in a very monotous way. Three years later by Aother Side of Bob Dylan there are exquisite little slides in the playing of All I Really Want to Do- he has upped his game. Well done, there was no compulsion to do this as he was an ace songwriter - Kristoferson never bothered to.

So who did all that clever stuff on 1st album, Freight Train Blues, Baby Let Me Follow You Down, In my Time of Dyin'.

To suggest that someone would be able to do all that stuff, and just reined himself is daft. Musicians are too vain for that. If they can play a riff, they tend to let you hear it. Trust me on this one. I've known a lot of musicians.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Scorpio
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 05:10 AM

Dylan learned from those he met - Dave Van Ronk played better guitar than Bob, but Mr. Z was a quick learner. With a basic knowledge of tunings and country blues licks, he could sound good enough to make an individual accompaniment sound impressive. As for the fingerpicking on Girl From The North Country, do you really need a clever session man to repeat a basic fingerpicking pattern in GCD?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 11:30 AM

don't sound that basic to me.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 11:42 AM

Well, Mr Rick Fielding said to me on a number of occasions that Bob Dylan was one hell of a good guitar player, and Rick Fielding was one of the best guitar players I've ever known. Seems to me that Dylan's performances vary a lot from one time to another...hell, I know they do. I've seen him live many a time. It seems to have something to do with what mood he's in...or maybe he's channeling the Spirit of God or something on certain occasions. I don't know. All I know is, sometimes he plays very well, sometimes he plays primitively.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 11:46 AM

weelittledrummer: I have never followed the ins and outs of Dylan history, I am just a fan basicallly. But this theory that the guitar-playing on the first album wasn't him: now, surely it would have been fairly widely known if that was the case,and why would this information have been suppressed? And by who?I seem to remember reading a couple of books and numerous articles about the talented boy, and I woulkd have thought this infomation would be well-aired publicly by now, if it existed. Can you clarify? I am very intrigued to know who did play this music, if you are right.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 11:59 AM

I haven't a bleeding clue. However that guy who was playing on the footage of Newport didn't have the Burl Ives Dum-ching together - it was just dum! dum! dum! - only not that regular.

The legend is that the first album recording was so throwaway that he borrowed the top off Suzie Rotollo's lipstick to play the slide parts - not having bothered to bring a slide to the session, or forgot it or something.

okay so he regressed occasionally - he went into the magic doughnut on One Step beyond. If that gives you pleasure - think of it that way. Makes bugger all sense to me though.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Effsee
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 12:07 PM

If you feel like being embarrassed all over again, they are repeating two of the progs tonight on BBC4 - half past midnight!Dylan at the Newport FF followed by Dylan in the Madhouse at 01:50.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 05:10 PM

as far as I am concerned,Dylans best songs are,Blowing in the wind,MrTambourine man,Times are a Changing,Masters of War,Boots of Spanish Leather,some of his other songs are very deriviative if not plagiaristic,Bob Dylans Dream,DontThinkTwice[PaulClayton].
I wouldnt bother to cross the road to see him,I give him 7.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 07:34 PM

Dunno, Cap'n. Like A Rolling Stone ain't half bad either...

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 07:36 PM

don't listen to the Captain - he's not a traditional singer - I have the word of an expert on it.(Ho! Ho!)

couldn't bear to look at those Ewan McColl threads anymore - all those gits putting down a great man.

Don't do the same captain - half the kids in our fifth year in 1965 wanted to be folksingers on account of Dylan. he inspired millions of people to start singing folkmusic.

nobody else has got so many people excited about the idea of folkmusic as a creative force. its only stinkpots who carp about great men like MacColl and Dylan. Bugger 'em! collectively not worth one of Dylan's farts.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 07:57 PM

Dylan didn't fart. He didn't stop whining long enough for any backpressure to build up.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 10:44 PM

I guess you'll never have that problem either, will you, Steve? ;-)

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 05:20 AM

I've just revisited Bob's first album after many many years (can't believe it - still mint - any offers?) - and I'm changing my mind; I reckon he probably did play guitar on (most) of the tracks. The wee drummer boy may be right about the 3 he mentions though, but they aren't so flash that he couldn't have played 'em. It is a bit strange though that his playing at Newport was so crap - but maybe he was very nervous and so didn't dare try his more adventurous stuff. If he was playing safe with basic strumming he failed miserably though.

On the harmonica front I have to say on reflection it don't sound too bad; I guess I'm mellowing in my old age. "Awesome" though is not an adjective I'd use to describe it; not after being exposed to the likes of Sonny Terry & Sonny Boy Williamson!

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 10:08 AM

WLD,you are quite right he did get alot of people interested in folk music.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 03:46 PM

WLD

Ewan MacColl talking about Bob Dylan in'Sing Out' magazine in 1965: "I am still unable to see him as anything more than a youth of mediocre talent. Only a completely non-critical audience nourished on the watery pap of pop music could have fallen for such tenth-rate drivel. The cultivated illiteracy of his topical songs are the embarrassing fourth grade schoolboy attempts at free verse."

Can't figure out if this is a great man talking about a great man or a stinkpot talking about a stinkpot.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 04:03 PM

It is a very good songwriter[Maccoll]talking about a good songwriter[Dylan],both of whom had/have[IMO]character flaws.
considering Masters of War was written in 1963,it is unforgivable that MacColl, Should dismiss his songwriting like this,some of it may have been drivel,but then not everything Maccoll wrote was good either,is it possible he was jealous?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 04:41 PM

The Captain is right on course with this one. MacColl had worked for close on twenty years. he was someone talked about with awe on the USA scene. I owned several American collections of folksongs where The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face was published as a folksong written by Ewan MacColl - long before it was widely known in England. In the early '60's, he must have seen songs like Where have all the Flowers gone, and feel his moment was surely arriving - only to have it dashed away from him by someone younger, sexier, more dynamic as recording artist - it must have been a very bitter pill to swallow.

His revenge was terrible however and must have been beyond his wildest imaginings. mainly due to his crazy followers and disciples, who interpreted his fit of pique as licence to reject and destroy the entire contemporary folksong movement in England.

Take a look at footage of American folk festival bills of those early years - the big names on the bill are the contemporary artists. the traditional section is almost afterthought - a repectful nod to posterity. In England, this got turned round totally. And its still pretty much where its at.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Declan
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 07:30 PM

The Seeger family connection is interesting here.

Pete seems to have been a major supporter of Dylan, until his alleged reaction to Bobby's electrification. Seems unusual therefore that Peggy appears to be saying she was unaware of Dylan until he showed up in Engalnd. I know they wouldn't have been exchanging eMails or texts in those days, but you'd imagine that Peggy would not have been completely unaware of Dylan when he arrived.

I've no idea how close Pete and Peggy were to each other, and I haven't worked out the implications of the dates, but I'd be interested in hearing what people who might know more about these things could add to this particular question.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 07:39 PM

MacColl was representing the aggrieved outlook of an old, mostly UK-based folk establishment who were thoroughly irritated by the rapid rise and success of what must have seemed to them to be a motley and inexperienced and upstart bunch of feckless semi-talented youngsters from the USA...Dylan, Baez, Buffy-Sainte-Marie, and all the rest of them.

As such, it was the typical kind of reaction that an older establishment usually has to the new kids bursting onto the scene and changing the styles.

I wouldn't give it any more importance than it deserves, and it doesn't deserve a whole lot. Both MacColl and Dylan were wonderful at what they did...they just didn't happen to do exactly the same thing, that's all, and they represented different eras in folk music.

Dylan (in the early to mid-60's) often expressed contempt and dismissal for the old folkies of his day ("a bunch of fat old people sitting around playing guitars")...just as MacColl and some of his peers at that time expressed contempt and dismissal for Dylan and some of the young folkies. It was a case of age-based prejudice on both sides, as far as I can see.

Bob is much more generous toward the older folk veterans of his day now, as can be ascertained by reading his great book "Chronicles - Volume 1".

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:15 PM

Exactly LH - it was entirely an understandable fit of annoyance.

I find it so unfair - on these other threads about MacColl - these characters casting about for odd occasions when people have lost their temper and said nasty things about EM. He just deserves a degree of reverence for what he achieved - in my opinion at least.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 03:11 AM

At the same time as his item in "Sing Out", MacColl also set out to slaughter Dylan in particular and the U.S.songwriting scene in general in a Melody Maker intervieiw with Karl Dallas. He dismissed the work of Dylan and Paxton as "saying nothing that LBJ could disagree with" and calling Dyla's poetry "punk and terribly old hat".
I remember being saddened by this at the time as I held both Dylan and MacColl (and still do)in the highest esteem both as performers and songwriters.
However as I recall MacColl received very little support for these attacks from the music scene and I certainly didn't see it as a catylist to destroy our contemporary songwriting movement. Alternativly, although I favoured traditionally based folk clubs, I and plenty others were quite comfortable in clubs where traditional and contemporary songs lived side by side. In fact for ten years I helped run a folk and blues club at which we booked MacColl three times!

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Zoothorn
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 04:30 AM

re the guitar-playing - maybe he was stoned when playing live, & just trying to hold it together; and/or trying to elicit maximum volume playing live into a mike, & eschewing subtlety for force? & probably a lot more nervous than he might have seemed..

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 04:44 AM

I've always thought MacColl was a bit of an arsehole - his quote on Dylan confirms that he was COMPLETE in that regard!

Jealous? - how could you suggest such a thing.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 04:59 AM

well he wasn't an arsehole. he was a more than okay guy. as an artist he was reliable - always turned up and did the business.

he was friendly and very encouraging in the general way of things to other singers and sogwriters. However he was human, and us humans have our off days. We shouldn't be judged by them - particularly when our best days are as good and productive as Ewan's best days were.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 05:45 AM

Just reading my daughter's copy of Greil Marcus' "Like a Rolling Stone" (my God that sounds like a putdown by MacColl).

I have the greatest respect for Mr. Marcus, and the book is excellent, but there's an absolutely hilarious paragraph where he claims that Brit folk clubs in 1965 were Communist cells, from whence commisars and workers were detailed to march to Dylan's concerts, waving red flags and placards and causing mayhem. Hence, apparently, the cry of "Judas" at Manchester Free Trade Hall.

Presumably Ewan MacColl and Bert Lloyd were the party apparatchiks detailed by the Kremlin to get rid of this dangerous revisionist, no doubt with Karl Dallas waving a revolver in the background.

If a respected essayist like Marcus can get something like this so wildly wrong what's the hope of us knowing what was going on in MacColl's mind forty years after the event?

Mind you I bet I wouldn't have got on with him.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 05:57 AM

Putting down other artists isn't clever - and he left a lasting legacy with others I'm not going to mention here - have no time for any of them.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 06:05 AM

' I certainly didn't see it as a catylist to destroy our contemporary songwriting movement. Alternativly, although I favoured traditionally based folk clubs, I and plenty others were quite comfortable in clubs where traditional and contemporary songs lived side by side.'

Summer of '65 I saw a fine young American singer/songwriter called Marc Sullivan at a west country folk club. Despite him being very accomplished, I saw that some of the locals were rude and talked through his gig. I wondered what all this was about.

When I saw the MacColl interview in MM, I knew from whence it emanated. They were too dim to have worked it out themselves. By the time I started singing The Grey Cock folk club (in the 1970's on the ring road in Brum, having some sort of arts council grant, and having Mac Coll's collaborator in the Radio Ballads , Charles Parker in the background as an eminence gris) wouldn't let floorsingers in with guitars - they would ask you your influences, and when I said ralph McTell - they said well we've got to draw the line somewhere - you can listen, but you're not singing.

It was a pernicious, underhand thing, a hydra headed monster that had no respect d for any singer that didn't sound like Walter Gabriel and wore a fiherman's smock.

Of course there were some good broad minded traddies - but like I said in 1965, Dylan had half our fifth year interesyyted in the idea of c becoming folksinger. there was a joke in Readers Digest at the time:-

Fifteen year old to his mother - I'm not sure what I want to be either a nuclear physicist or a folksinger.

The kids nowadays who get into folkmusic look like they've smoked a pipe and worn a tweed jacket since they were six.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 06:25 AM

My God - Eliza Carthy and Seth Lakeman in tweed jackets & smoking pipes! Hey man, what the hell's in this here coffee?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:30 AM

Eliza Carthy .....a kid. Somebody tell her that one.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:58 AM

Ooer. Point taken re Eliza and pejorative "kid" reference.

(Dons slippers, puts [Porsche] pipe in mouth, and settles down in front of Miss Marple repeat on ITV3)

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 08:06 AM

My goodness, some trad folkies were dreadful snobs, weren't they! Oh, and I remember a few like that too in the clubs I went to. What a pain they were. They were almost always heavy-set men with a beard and a British or Scottish accent, and they thought the sun rose and set on them and their damned opinions. ;-) You couldn't play a Dylan song in the presence of those worthies...nor any modern song...nor anything you'd written yourself. Good heavens no! What a bunch of stuffed shirts.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 04:54 PM

would there be any of those here on Mudcat?,they probably havent contributed to this thread,because the name Dylan puts them off.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 12:05 AM

They're out there, Cap, lurking in the shadows, nursing their bile, stroking their greying beards, and biding their time... ;-) They gather in tight little cliques in the back rooms of pubs on acoustic nights and try to one-up each other by playing vigorously on bohdrans and Irish pipes whilst sneering down their noses at all the young "snigger-snogwriters". They bellow their way through interminable Scottish sea shanties which have 149 verses and then criticize Bob Dylan for writing "such long songs". A pox on these varlets! May they all be set upon by nameless cutpurses and roving highwaymen and left naked, battered, and senseless in the gutter, there to be gazed upon scornfully by passing hogs and street urchins until the watch finally arrives and carts them all off to the assizes to be charged with public nudity and gross indecency. ;-)

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Peace
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 12:08 AM

"May they all be set upon by nameless cutpurses and roving highwaymen and left naked, battered, and senseless in the gutter, there to be gazed upon scornfully by passing hogs and street urchins until the watch finally arrives and carts them all off to the assizes to be charged with public nudity and gross indecency. ;-)"

I thought that need to be 'said' again.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 02:22 AM

OK, I'll get me coat

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 02:49 AM

They're out there, Cap, lurking in the shadows, nursing their bile, stroking their greying beards, and biding their time... ;-)

and thats just the women.....

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 03:35 AM

Peace said "the rest of us will have to keep hoping we write as well." That qualifies as somewhat of an understatement.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 09:22 AM

Rather belatedly, I'm afraid: wasn't 'North Country' actually a G -Em9 - C - G riff?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 11:41 AM

Straight out of Scarbrough Fair and down a bit?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 11:52 AM

Just try and find an original chord sequence if you think you can.... ;-) The thing that's wonderful about music is that we can get so much out of just 12 tones...and three or four beats in a measure.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 02:53 PM

Girl of the North Country -just listen to the sodding record. whoever played guitar that can piss smoke rings.

scarboro fair my bottom! a variant maybe, but the accompaniment is exquisite.

I admire Martin Carthy but I've never heard him come up with anything as attractive.

and no I don't think it was Bob Dylan, even if he was enjoying recreational drug and suffering a flash forward memory to the motorbike accident.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:35 PM

"Girl From the North Country" and "Scarborough Fair" are related, to some extent ("remember me to one who lives there"), but they are by no means identical in either melody, rythm, or chord structure, to say nothing of arrangement. They are two different songs with a some noticeable similarities in theme and structure. So what?

The folk tradition is filled with hundreds and hundreds of songs that resemble each other somewhat in melody or chord structure and which share certain memorable phrases or images. That's part of what makes the folk tradition what it is. We build on the past backlog of lyrics, tunes, musical structures, and styles. And that's good.

It only seems to bother certain people when Bob Dylan does it. I wonder why? ;-) Because he is who he is, that's why. He is the single most influential songwriter of the last 50 years, and that's what pisses those certain people off.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 05:47 PM

I have no problem with Dylan having written it. But that guitar accompaniment - just listen.

I think the final proof is the Johnny Cash version on Nashville Skyline. Imagine letting the desecration of one of your most beautiful trax - the first track on the album.

Dylan has yet to get a decent amount of respect for the session men who have complemented his vision with sensitive work.

A couple of decades later he will be grovelling round Mark Knopfler and Sly and Robbie, Allen Toussaint - hoping for some of their magic. he hasn't learned that being a 'star' like himself has nothing to do with it. he's not a country star who can call on Hargus Pig Robbins, and the rest of Billy Sherril's team. he actually needs a sensitive musician - who will listen to what his song is about and try and get something down that sets his words like a diamond in the centre of a beautiful ring or brooch.

Businessmen they drink my wine, ploughmen dig my earth

I've been listening to ploughed up pieces of business from Dylan for a long time. he was damn lucky - he fell amongst honest men in the first instance.

downhill all the way - ever since.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 06:40 PM

I would remind you, Hawk 'n' Cap'n, that it is perfectly valid to not think much of Bob Dylan, still less regard him as a "folk singer."   He's a pop singer (y'know, Number Ones, played a lot on Radio One, cult status and all that) who sings almost all his own songs and hardly any of anyone else's who just happens to play an acoustic guitar sometimes. He's as much a "folk singer" as the Corrs are a "traditional Irish group" (golly gosh, they have a FIDDLE!!).   Not that all that should colour one's views as to his worth or quality, but I reiterate that is OK to not think much of him (without being shot down by his groupies).

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 06:48 PM

Steve Shaw,Fair Comment,I cant disagree with you.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:53 PM

Well, it all depends on what you think a "folksinger" is, and what you think about that depends on when and where you were growing up, around whom, and who you were influenced by, right? We all have mental patterns that were set by our earliest experiences, and those patterns go on justifying themselves for the rest of our lives.

In the end, all that matters about Dylan or any other singer whatsoever is...do you enjoy listening to them? If you do, great, enjoy them. If you don't, fine, just go and listen to someone else instead that you like better.

If Dylan's not a folksinger to you, okay. That's up to you. To me, he's a singer and a writer who went through a number of stages...country/rock/blues/folk/protest/"folk-rock"/country/all of the below together/religious rock/and who knows what else...

At around 14, he played country music (inspired mostly by Hank Williams). After that he played rock n' roll, inspired by Little Richard and Buddy Holly and other rockers...and he fronted a couple of really loud high school rock bands "Ellston Gunn and the Rock Boppers" and "The Golden Chords". He played a lot of piano then, Little Richard style.

Then he got into the old acoustic blues stuff, like Robert Johnson and Blind Willie McTell, etc, and he did a lot of that on acoustic guitar for years afterward.

Then he got into Woody Guthrie and the folk music thing. For awhile he had a huge repertoire of Guthrie songs. Was Guthrie a folksinger? Most people seem to think so.

You appear to be bothered by the fact that Dylan does almost exclusively his own songs. Why by bothered by that? He did almost exclusively cover tunes for years and years (all through his teens) and most of the songs on his first album were cover tunes of various wellknown folksongs, blues, etc.

AFTER that he started doing mostly his own songs. You know why? Probably because he felt like it, having spent all of his teenage years ALREADY immersing himself in playing hundreds and hundreds of cover tunes and traditional numbers.

Aww...poor Bobbie...he just didn't want to keep doing the very same thing forever and ever. You guys would all probably love him if he'd just STOPPED at one particular moment that suited your taste perfectly and kept on repeating that moment forever like an old record on the turntable.

Well, hey, you've got folksingers and pop singers and country singers who do that. Hundreds of them. They simple repeat the past endlessly. They could probably do it in their sleep. So my advice is, listen to those guys and be happy. They will never let you down.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 03:06 AM

He was the main reason perople got interested in folk music. he brought a lot of folk into the fold.

If you think folkmusic can exist without the acceptance of the generality of the 'folk', but with just few acolytes and froots readers - well you may be right. But I don't think so.

He was folk when he was young and artistically ambitious enough to want to be - I think he's settled for something much less over the years. Which is a little sad.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 11:50 AM

I would tend to agree with that, Weelittledrummer...he has settled for less. That often happens with people as they get older.   There's nothing to match the hunger, passion, and drive of a young person who is really excited about something, as Dylan was about the music when he was young, but the excitement can tend to fade after awhile.

There's nothing that can kill a dream so dead as achieving it in full measure. ;-) For instance, I had a dream in my head about Native Americans when I was a kid. Why? Who knows. Anyway, I eventually spent a lot of time hanging around with Native Americans, going to powwows, living among them....and then I acquired a Native American girlfriend. And that killed the dream. Stone dead. She was the single most problematical character I have ever dealt with. Any romantic illusions I was carrying about Native Americans were completely smashed by the time that relationship was through, and I've never felt the same about them since. The glow is definitely off the rose.

Now just apply that same analogy to the dream of becoming a great folksinger and playing Newport and Carnegie Hall....and see what might happen when and if you achieve it.

You never know how it's gonna go with such things till after they've been done.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 06:00 PM

For goodness sake, Hawk, did I say I was BOTHERED by the fact that he almost exclusively does his own songs? The fact that I mentioned it does not mean that it bothers me, but that it is just another thing that comes into the reckoning as far as I'm concerned in deciding whether he should be regarded, by me in my tiny mind, as a folk singer.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:05 AM

Okay. ;-) Many of my favorite "folksingers" did record mostly their own original songs, but my sense of what a folksinger was was formed differently than yours, I guess. I think what you call a folksinger is what I would call a "traditional folksinger", most likely...meaning someone who does mostly trad songs.

Folk appealed to a certain kind of audience in North America in the 60's...as opposed to pop and rock or even country and blues. Folk in North America at that time appealed to an audience that focused very much on the words of the songs (this was not so in ANY other style of popular music)...and the songs tended to be about more serious subjects than was the case with any of the other music styles. They had philosophical and topical content in them. That's what the folk audience was looking for at that time. Trad songs were popular too, but they tended to take 2nd place to the topical stuff (and I don't just mean "protest" songs, but any songs that examined the human condition in some thoughtful way and commented on it). People like Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Ian Tyson, Tom Paxton, Gordon Lightfoot, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Joni Mitchell, and various others were writing those kind of songs.

The folk audience was much quieter, much more analytical, much more political, and less there to "party" than was the case with the rock, the blues, or the country audience. You didn't dance to folk music... ;-) You listened...very attentively.

And that made for wonderful concerts, because you could hear every little thing. The audience was paying total attention to the music instead of having a big noisy party as is normally the case in a rock show. Dylan was perfect for that quiet folk audience in his early career. By the time he went electric, the whole scene was changing fast and fragmenting, and he helped speed up that process. I miss the days before the fragmenting occurred, but I don't particularly blame Dylan. It would've happened regardless. He just accelerated it some.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Richard Wastling
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:40 AM

Please do some research before making suppositions about Bob's guitar playing - as regards 'Girl from the North Country', there exists is a widely available bootleg video of the Canadian 'Quest' TV show , transmitted on 1st February 1964 on which he plays a bunch of songs live, mostly from the 'Freewheelin' catalogue, including a beautiful fluently finger-picked version of 'Girl from the North Country" (see Google or Youtube http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qhwemir1Ag for evidence!).
Other live audio recordings of that 1963/64 period include, amongst others, competently finger-picked versions of 'Tomorrow is a Long Time', 'Percy's Song and 'Moonshiner Blues' amongst others.
I just think that as Bob got bigger audiences, he went for a bigger sound - anyway, what's so unusual about Dylan changing the way he does a song!

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:29 AM

Bless you Bob for staying faithful to your philosophical look at the times as they are constantly changing. No other performer has managed to travel successfully through time as you have.

I don't care how his music is classified - there's so much of it, and in so many different colours I just pick n' mix according to my mood, whether listening or performing. He still does covers (eg Robert Johnson) - rollin' and tumblin' down the decades and changing his style as he goes. I don't hear anyone yet covering his more recent offerings, possibly because they're not as simple as Blowing in the Wind etc.. but I'm sure they'll be covered soon enough, and will be played in folk clubs (or their equivalent) in year 2057.

Roll on Bobby....

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Fingerpick Jim
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 04:40 AM

"Rather belatedly, I'm afraid: wasn't 'North Country' actually a G -Em9 - C - G riff? " (Rusty Dobro)

Based on the Youtube 1964 video it looks like G D+4th D7 G C G; D+4 D7 G C G; Em C   G C G; D+4 D7 G C G

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:47 AM

Thanks, FJ, I'll have some fun with that later. I fancy I'll stick with my version, though, if only to show that I know Em9 - a small step for mankind,but a giant step for the elderly and confused.

One of the things I like about Mr Z is the way he throws unexpected (by me, anyway) chords into otherwise fairly undemanding tunes, like 'When I Paint my Masterpiece', or 'One More Night'.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Fingerpickjim
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 10:16 AM

My pleasuse RD - our thanks to Richard Wastling for the Youtube link. That C shape shoved up to the 3rd fret is also a feature of Paul Simon's "Kathy's Song" and what gives it it's very distinctive flavour; which came 1st I wonder?

You're right about his use of unexpected chords - part of what makes him so special. It's taken for granted now, but who else would have come up with the (very simple but effective) chords for Tambourine Man....

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:28 PM

Its not bad picking - certainly better than the Newport nonsense Good functional stuff. But theres a bit more than that going on, on the record.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:28 AM

Having viewed the video and listened again to that beautiful recording of "Girl from the North Country" I have to agree with you WLD. The video does not prove (to me at least) that Dylan is playing on the recording. As to "there's a bit more than that going on", the recorded version is in Bb with capo on 3rd, which changes the colour of the sound, and there's also a hint of stereo/reverb, but the fingerstyle pattern is slightly different too.

When I listen to recordings of, say, Richard Thompson, I am never in any doubt as to who is playing. I have always doubted whether Dylan played on "Don't Think Twice" and a few others. To my ears I get the impression the same guitarist plays these two and "Corrina Corrina" for example.

All this is of no real consequence of course, but interesting nonetheless. I'd love to think guitar anoraks would be discussing my guitar style/playing in 45 years time!!

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 12:37 PM

probably Bert Weedon,hewas avery good sessionman.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 12:38 PM

100

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 12:40 PM

Bert Wheedon, with Larry Adler on harmonica maybe?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Declan
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 02:25 PM

Could be that Dylan was prepared to be adventurous with his guitar style in the studio where he had the luxury of practice time and as many takes as he needed to get things right. In Newport in front of an audience and being filmed for posterity he may have resorted to a simpler guitar style that was less risky in terms of getting things completely wrong.

Also given that the sound equipment, mikes, amplifiers etc were a lot more primitive in those days he may have wanted to make an impact with his guitar playing. Subtelty could well be lost if the reporduction was not good. Although the sound on the recording of Newport seemed OK, the sound in the 'house' may not have been the best - particularly as the 'house' seems to have been outdoors a lot of the time.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 02:29 PM

I'm not sure about "Freewheelin'", but I am just about dead sure that when they recorded the first album it was just Bob and his guitar, standing in front of a couple of microphones. It was recorded very quickly. He never liked doing many takes on a song, and I don't either. You just lose the freshness.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 02:40 PM

For the record, I believe Bob plays the guitar (or one of the guitars, in cases where there are one or more backing musicians) on all his recordings. He has never been a hotshot "lead" guitarist, but he became a very good acoustic-guitar self-accompanyist very early on, well before his "discovery" and the recording of his first album.

In the Scorcese documentary, there's an interview with Tony Glover, who recalls being astounded by the great and sudden improvement in Bob's playing over the short period of time between his move to New York and his first visit back to Dinkytown, Minneapolis. ("It was as though he had sold his soul at the crossroads, like Robert Johnson," or words to that effect.)

(I also, by the way, believe that William Shakespeare wrote all those plays and sonnets...)

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: fat B****rd
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 03:39 PM

Larry Adler, surely not. Max Geldray or Tommy Reilly. Isn't it common knowledge that Bruce Langhorne layed on a lot of BD's early recordings ?.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:42 PM

No, Bruce generally "layed" sometime after the recording sessions were over. They don't allow that sort of thing during recording an album. It would be highly unprofessional. Only Frank Zappa would put up with crazy shit like that.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 02:19 AM

Bruce Langhorne's contributions are credited on the record labels and sleeves, and for a few of those earlier years he was the only other guitar player in the studio besides Bob, so his playing is very easy to discern. (In most cases, he's playing electric with Bob on acoustic, so there's little doubt about who's playing what.)

With the release of Highway 61 and then Blonde on Blonde, there were multiple guitar players listed in the credits and a much more complex instrumental mix, so then it became harder (well, impossible really) to recognize the players.

Nowadays, I can recognize Robbie Robertson's instrumental "voice" easily enough, and can hear him clearly at various times during B on B. But back when the album first came out, I had no idea who any of those guys were, and often wondered about the guitar players and the guitar playing.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:47 AM

Whether or no Bob played guitar on Girl of the North Country, it's a beautiful example of a lilting and soulful fingerstyle guitar. The recorded version is different to the live performance as shown on Youtube, mainly down to use of a beautiful chord, what I call a suspended Bm7 (not, I'm sure, it's correct chord name!).   The notes in the chord are E, B, Gb, G, D, E or if you prefer the numbers:
0;2;4;0;3,0
Does anyone know the correct name for this chord please?
Richard Thompson's "Beeswing" also features this chord, and it certainly enhances the song.
Also, he keeps his pinky on the top E string on 3rd fret so it rings out during both G and C chords.
Thanks to Wee-little-drummer for opening the discussion on this Dylan track – it's a song I sang & played (very crudely) back in 1965 when I first played guitar, and I've started playing it again; it's good to get the ears concentrating hard again!