BS: Unarmed soldier killed, (London-May 2013)

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 13 - 04:08 PM


Are you claiming that all Muslims are terrorists
No.
- or are you claiming that active Muslim organisations are only involved in what they do because of religious conviction.
No.

Am I claiming that active Islamist organisations are only involved in what they do because of religious conviction?
Yes. They say so.
Why should we heed you and ignore them Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:03 PM

""Do you, honestly now Don, not feel this at least a tenable position on my part?""

No sir! I do not.

Returning to my ""somewhat feeble IMO argument"", you may have overlooked the strongest part of it.

I said that the whole passage could equally easily have included an injunction to carry out these actions or an injunction against.

Deviously extracting one sentence could equally be used by a radical to advocate attacks on Christians, or by a racist to denigrate the whole Islamic community.

I do not think this is a weak argument, as we have seen this sentence used for both purposes in the last couple of days.

You have, in fact, made my point very well indeed in your reference to the misinterpretation of the Thatcher quote, though I know such was not your intention. I have been rebutting that interpretation for years, without success.

Once a bigot has made up his mind based on an out of context remark, he simply doesn't choose to hear any rebuttal.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:06 PM

"I could walk into a Christian (Catholic) confessional, confess to having sexually abused a dozen children and suggest it might happen again, and walk out"
.,,.
No you couldn't, Jim. Without your expressing a 'firm purpose of amendment', the priest would be unable to grant absolution. Even I know that, and I am no RC and have never been anything near. You mean well in so many ways, Jim; but o-dear-me you can be so ignorant sometimes...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:13 PM

Thank you for the "sir", Don. There is really no need, my dear fellow!

I think we have taken this particular dispute as far as it can go, and are simply beginning to assert repetitiously. Not something we are ever going to agree about ~~ I think your position absurdly over-generalised; you find my responses uncomprehending. We are not likely to move on from that sort of stalemate, I don't think.

Let's leave it there, shall we?

Best regards

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:18 PM

"but o-dear-me you can be so ignorant sometimes"
And you can be so deviously stupid Mike - as I made plain "without fear of being either apprehended or reported" I was not referring to "absolution" I was pointing out that I would be free to continue abusing children because the priest would be under an obligation not to report me to the authorities - go educate yourself.
"Yes. They say so."
Some make that an excuse for doing so - unless you could point to a universal declaration showing otherwise.
Perhaps you might comment on the statistics I gave.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:39 PM

""Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 29 May 13 - 12:55 PM

Why not Keith - you get away with it
An individual like me might believably be deranged, but you can not dismiss a vast global movement as all afflicted.
You would have to be, er, a nutter Jim.

They are acting on deeply held religious belief.
They believe they are doing the will of Allah, and expect to be rewarded by Allah.""

So, in this post, you are saying that the whole of global Islam is terrorist out of ""deeply held religious belief"", not just the tiny minority of radicalised nutters.

________________________________________________________________

""Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 29 May 13 - 04:08 PM


Are you claiming that all Muslims are terrorists
No.
- or are you claiming that active Muslim organisations are only involved in what they do because of religious conviction.
No.

Am I claiming that active Islamist organisations are only involved in what they do because of religious conviction?
Yes. They say so.
Why should we heed you and ignore them Jim?""

And in this post you have denied claiming that all Muslims are terrorists, and in answer to the second question, you have responded "No", and also "Yes. They say so".

Apart from the fact that your posts reek of anti Muslim sentiment and the concept that Muslim = Evil, do you really have the slightest idea of what you are actually claiming?

It doesn't appear so!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:43 PM

""No you couldn't, Jim. Without your expressing a 'firm purpose of amendment', the priest would be unable to grant absolution.""

What he is talking about Mike, is not absolution, but the hard and fast rule that prevents a priest informing the authorities of details of a confession.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:53 PM

So, in this post, you are saying that the whole of global Islam is terrorist out of ""deeply held religious belief"", not just the tiny minority of radicalised nutters.
No don.
I was talking about global Islamism, not global Islam.

They are the ones doing the terrorism, and they say they do it for religion.
Jim says he does not believe that.
How about you Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:15 PM

Jews and Christians have an explicit commandment: Thou shalt not kill.

They do kill, however, and what allows them to do this is the special dispensation they grant themselves. It becomes acceptable when done in the service of the state. Is this what Moses taught? No. Jesus? Double no. This special dispensation is the result of state agendas in collusion with religion leaders themselves. These religious leaders have developed a certain mentality of "I'm a rabbi or a priest whereas you're a soldier." My job is to preach, yours to kill. Of course this is all hypocrisy, but the commandment remains intact.

Islam, on the other hand, says that it is permissable, even desirable, to kill infidels and to commit atrocities against women. It would appear that the vast majority of Muslims and their leaders have granted themselves special dispensation to avoid such acts, but the commandment remains intact.

The difference is in the standard. Make no mistake, Islam is a false religion. What I would like to do is pick up some of you, drop you off in Pakistan, pick you up in about a year (if you're still alive) and see what you have to say then. Some of you hate Jews but others feel compelled to defend who they see as the underdog. Those people need to learn that being the underdog is no guarantee of virtue.

I knew this girl who got involved with a disabled man. He subjected her to hardcore verbal abuse to the point where I believe if he had been physically able to, he would have subjected her to a whole lot worse. Certain people ought not to have certain caoabilities I'd say. As guilty as she felt, she eventually had to walk away. Who was the underdog there? The one who appeared to be at a disadvantage or the one who actually was?

David the Cossack Gnome, take a break:

Ой чий то кінь стоїть

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:19 PM

Make no mistake, Islam is a false religion.

Oh great, another brain-damaged fundagelical fuckwit heard from.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:20 PM

""I was talking about global Islamism, not global Islam.""

Oh well that's alright then, providing of course that there is any such thing as global Islamism.

Do you know of any such organisation, or are you just making it up as you go along, as usual?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Lisa
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:40 PM

What a song! About unrequited love. Believe it or not, you don't have to turn to rock for an earful of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:42 PM

"I spent 13 years inside Hizb ut-Tahrir (HT), the global Islamist organisation that first spawned al-Muhajiroun, the banned Islamist terrorist organisation founded by Omar Bakri Muhammad and Anjem Choudary."

This from the account of Maajid Nawaz which I linked to in my post of 28 May 13 - 03:41 PM which you probably either didn't bother reading or read and ignorted because it puts lie to everything you and that other dingbat Carroll are professing.

Nawaz spent thirteen years operating as a radical Islamist (his own words) but, of course, you and that other idiot know that it has nothing to do with Islam so maybe you should let him know that he has been deluded all this time and is really just a "nutter" who has nevertheless gained a law and Arabic degree from The School of African and Oriental Studies and a Masters in political theory from the London School of Economics.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 May 13 - 07:13 PM

Meanwhile, MtheGM continues to claim that the Koran says something that it did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 13 - 11:47 PM

If you were a Catholic, Jim, that would not be an option to you. If not, and the priest knew this, he would probably decline to hear your confession. If you pretended to be so in order to get him to listen and then left without appearing to desire absolution, then it is perfectly possible that, after searching his conscience and perhaps consulting his Bishop, he would not consider himself bound by the principle of the secrets of the Confessional and report the matter anyhow. I shouldn't try it if I were you!

I repeat ~~ ignorant!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 13 - 11:53 PM

aRich`rd ~~ Get it into your thick skull, please, that I 'claim', & have claimed, nothing. If you think you can find an explicit 'claim' in anything I have posted re this supposed 'misquotation' of a Shura that we are engaged with, paste it please to demonstrate the truth of your claim. Otherwise just shut the hell up and go away, there's a dear fellow.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Forlorn Lass
Date: 30 May 13 - 12:18 AM

Alas, Jim Carroll only cares for human beings in the abstract. In other words, he loves humanity, it's people he can't stand. Makes me sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:02 AM

So you are suggesting that if a "militant Christian" like Breivik (or any Christian) runs amok, then it is the responsibility of the church and not the appropriate authorities?

No. The authorities need to intervene as well as the church. However, in a lot of countries the Moslem church and the authorities are one and the same thing. Where they are separate, like here for instance, we can have both factions intervene. Remember the Catholic church declaring that it would ex-communicate IRA killers? I do. Has anything similar been done in the name of Islam? Have any of the Islamist authorities arrested and prosecuted known killers? I don't know but would be surprised if we can find any examples of it.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:23 AM

"If not, and the priest knew this, he would probably decline to hear your confession."
I suggest you familiarise with exactly what priests have listened to and granted absolution for - and refused to pass on to the appropriate authorities, in many cases allowing the confessor to continue 'sinning' - you really have to tell me which branch of Specsavers you go to for your rose-coloured spectacles.
Please don't preach to me on a subject that has been a part of my experience for all of my life.
"They are the ones doing the terrorism,"
No they are not - you have described what is happening in Gaza as "terrorism" - it has nothing to do with holy war - it has everything to do with retaliating to a brutally expansionist regime.
The Assad regime is Muslim, as you have pointed out - what is happening in Syria is about suppressing opposition to that regime - nothing to do with religion. In fact, up to the end of the present arms embargo the civilised Christian world has continued to sit on its hands and do nothing while the people of Syria are slaughtered, egged on by people like you who have applauded that inaction even to the extent of suggested that the regime be supplied with riot control equipment.
Many of the States that adhere to Sharia law are trading partners with and allies of the west. Within weeks of the beginning of the Arab Spring protests the British Prime Minister was hosting an arms fair in order to try and sell arms to the same regimes - not a great sign of holy war there.
If these were "holy wars", the streets of countries like Britain with high immigrant Muslim populations would be awash with blood a point you continue to ignore, as is your wont   
The only holy war here is the one being fought by people like yourself with your blind racist/cultural hatred of one religious group, while at the same time giving wholesale support to a real live-'n-kicking terrorist State heavily influenced by religious extremists.
"Alas, Jim Carroll only cares for human beings in the abstract."
Whatever you say anonymous guest - but at least I'm not attempting to use the killing of a young soldier as a platform for Islamophobia - which I have little doubt you regard as a laudable way to behave.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:49 AM

Hi, unnamed Guest of Cossack or Russian extraction. I understand your point if you are indeed Cossack. My paternal Grandfather was born in what is now Krupotkin on the banks of the Kuban river and eventually became a Russian Orthodox priest in England. My father was brought up in Poland after my Grandparents were kicked out of Russia on religious grounds. The hatred the Cossacks hold for Moslems (or Mohamedans as my Father calls them) is legendary and considering that they were often fighting for the same resources in a harsh environment I believe the hatred was not always religious.

I believe you are perfectly entitled to your views on other religions. As long as those views have not and will not result in violence then Greg F's comment is both uncalled for and insulting to all those who do have a strong faith - In all religions. I do like the song as well, is it you? I lost my Russian language when I was around 5 so thanks to Guest, Lisa for the explanation as well.

One question though - What do I need to tale a break from?

Na zdorovje (Yes, I know it is old fashioned but remember I have not spoke true Russian for 55 years!)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 05:13 AM

Don.

Oh well that's alright then, providing of course that there is any such thing as global Islamism.
If you are really so profoundly ignorant, you have no hope of following never mind participating in this discussion.
Look it up Don dear, or leave it to us.

Jim,
what is happening in Syria is about suppressing opposition to that regime - nothing to do with religion.

I do not believe that you are that ignorant and have really not been following these events.
Assad's ruling clan is a minority Shia sect, and the opposition Sunni.
The opposition receives support from Sunni Gulf states and Assad gets help from Shia Iraq, Iran and Hezbollah.
It is a sectarian religious war that has already spread to Iraq and beginning in Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 05:19 AM

Syria's deepening sectarian war bleeds across borders

Tucson Citizen ‎- 47 minutes ago

Syria's deepening sectarian war bleeds across borders - News from USA TODAY.
Rockets strike Beirut suburb as sectarian strife flares in Lebanon, Syria


CNN‎ - 3 days ago
Syrian rebels threaten Hezbollah as sectarian conflict intensifies


Washington Post‎ - 1 day ago


Sectarian attacks in Iraq stoked by spillover from Syrian war | World ...



www.guardian.co.uk › World news › Iraq‎



May 21, 2013 – Ability of prime minister Nouri al-Maliki to contain crisis may hinge on events beyond his control.


Rockets hit Beirut area as sectarian strife flares in Lebanon, Syria ...



www.cnn.com/2013/05/26/world/meast/lebanon-violence

4 days ago – Four rockets struck strongholds of the militant group Hezbollah in Lebanon on Sunday, highlighting fears of sectarian tensions in the country ...


Syria's deepening sectarian war bleeds across borders - USA Today


www.usatoday.com/story/news/.../2013/.../syria-sectarian.../237008...


by Oren Dorell7 hours ago – The Syrian civil war is increasingly drawing in nations across the Middle East, in a regionwide conflict that threatens to pit world powers against ...



Syria conflict spills over into Lebanon with more sectarian fighting ...



►►


www.euronews.com › News

6 days ago
world news - Gunmen have been seen prowling through a Sunni district of the Lebanese city of Tripoli after ...

More videos for 2013 sectarian syria »


Syrian rebels threaten Hezbollah as sectarian ... - Washington Post



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2 days ago – Shooting, rocket attacks reflect growing tension in Lebanon as factions take sides in Syria's civil war.


Sectarianism in Iraq stoked by Syrian war - Washington Post



articles.washingtonpost.com › Collections

May 16, 2013 – BAGHDAD — A recent tide of sectarian tensions that erupted into the worst violence seen in Iraq in five years is testing the government of Prime ...


5/16/2013: SYRIA: The Sectarian Divide - USCIRF



www.uscirf.gov › News Room › Press Releases‎



May 16, 2013 – May 16, 2013 | By USCIRF. WASHINGTON, D.C.– The two-year armed conflict in Syria has left at least 80,000 people dead and more than 5 ...


The Syrian War Is Not Only Sectarian - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the ...



www.al-monitor.com/.../2013/.../syrian-conflict-failed-sectarian-analysis....‎



3 days ago – While many observers have described the Syrian civil war in sectarian terms, this analysis fails to explain many aspects of the current crisis and ...


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5 days ago – Fighting for the Syrian town of Qusayr has been unusually fierce, and the tenacity of rebels against better-armed opponents has given the battle ...

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 05:29 AM

Sorry Dave - missed you again.
"The authorities need to intervene as well as the church"
What happened in Woolwich was a crime and as such, has to be dealt with by the law.
Should Woolwich suddenly become involved in a holy war, certainly, the church becomes involved, but despite claims to the contrary, this in not the case, it is a murder carried out by a tiny handful of people from a population of one and a half million (a point that you, along with Keith, continue to ignore) - does any church anywhere excommunicate everybody guilty of a serious crime?
Your comparison with the IRA is facile in the extreme.
The local Muslim leaders where among the first on the scene to express their abhorrence at what had happened in Woolwich, one cleric described it as "an insult to Islam" to make the claims that the killers did.
It seems to me that nothing short of a signed confession of guilt would satisfy some people.
BTW - the same church that used the excommunication card during the 'troubles' is now threatening to excommunicate those politicians who 'vote the wrong way' in the forthcoming vote on pregnancy termination.
As far as I'm concerned, the sooner the church, any church, is totally barred as an organisation from having any influence on national (particularly political) matters whatever, the cleaner will be the air we breathe.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 05:59 AM

tiny handful of people from a population of one and a half million (a point that you, along with Keith, continue to ignore)
Not ignored Jim, acknowledged.
There are only a few thousand Islamists here.
A small minority, but significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 13 - 06:22 AM

"There are only a few thousand Islamists here."

Where did that figure come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 06:50 AM

As far as I'm concerned, the sooner the church, any church, is totally barred as an organisation from having any influence on national (particularly political) matters whatever, the cleaner will be the air we breathe.

Absolutely agreed, Jim. Here in England I think we have it. Well, I hope so anyway. Ireland is getting there. What about Iran, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan etc. etc.? That is part of the point I am trying to make. When those authorities unite in getting rid of the interference of the church in their politics then we can eliminate the religious labels applied to them. But they will not. They will continue harbouring criminals and murderers that have committed their crimes in the name of their faith. The other part of the point is that the churches that these people claim to represent - notice I do say claim - need to be seen to act. Not just declare their abhorrence. When the half million (the figure you quote) peaceful Moslems are seen to be acting by, possibly, providing the civil authorities information on radical factions, then there will be no good reason for anyone to promote anti-Moslem feelings. It is no longer enough to sit back and say sorry but it is out of my hands.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 May 13 - 07:46 AM

Hello, the post eater temporarily saved you M the GM.


"Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:58 AM

Don ~~   ...   It is, or was, an accurate quotation from part of The Q'ran so far as I can see.    ...   ".

Were you lying or are you so senile that you are suffering from memory loss?



Off for a nice weekend, so DO continue to be honest while I am not here to monitor you, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 13 - 08:16 AM

"by a tiny handful of people from a population of one and a half million (a point that you, along with Keith, continue to ignore)"
.,,.
I don't think anyone is ignoring that point, Jim; but youl are surely ignoring the consideration that it is not just their numbers, but the effect these individuals have, and their prominence and visibility, that matters. How many did it take to knock the Twin Towers down? 3, was it? I point out again that the statistics are overridden by the point made by Yeats [the greatest of Irish poets so I expect you will love his work as I do], that

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity

It's that passionate intensity that does the damage, not the actual number who possess it. A sort of opposite of the Hegelian idea that at some point a quantative difference will morph into a qualitative one ~~ opposite because here it is the smallness, rather than the largeness, of the numbers at issue.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 13 - 08:23 AM

Ah, Richard, yes, I didn't put that too well did I?

Caught, you might say ✍✍✍☞☞☞☜☜☜

☹☹☹☹☹

Have a good time. I will try harder while you are gone!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 08:29 AM

Our security services say there are around 2000 individuals who they believe pose a threat and you have to assume they have missed some.
This was all covered earlier in the thread Stu.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 08:42 AM

The new head of British security service MI5 Jonathan Evans said on Monday that there are at least 2,000 people in Britain who pose a threat to national security because of their support for terrorism.

    In his first public speech, made in Manchester, since taking the job in April, Evans said there had been a rise of 400 since November 2006 and some are as young as 15.

    Calling Islamic extremism the "most immediate and acute peacetime threat" in the 98-year history of MI5, he said "The more that this ideology spreads in our communities, the harder it will be to maintain the kind of society that the vast majority of us wish to live in."
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-11/06/content_7017305.htm

Key questions about MI5's handling of Michael Adebolajo, the Briton of Nigerian descent, one of Lee Rigby's alleged killers, include its apparent decision not to keep tabs on him after he was arrested in Kenya in 2010 supposedly on his way to train with al-Shabaab, the al-Qaeda franchise extremist group based in neighbouring Somalia.

MI5 has thousands of individuals on its terrorism database. It has always said, notably during the investigation into the 7/7 bombings, that who to keep under surveillance, and how persistently, was a matter of of priorities.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/defence-and-security-blog/2013/may/28/mi5-woolwich-attack-parliament

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 13 - 08:46 AM

ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

ICM: 5% of Muslims in Britain tell pollsters they would not report a planned Islamic terror attack to authorities.
27% do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate.
http://www.scotsman.com/?id=1956912005
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist.html

Federation of Student Islamic Societies: About 1 in 5 Muslim students in Britain (18%) would not report a fellow Muslim planning a terror attack.
http://www.fosis.org.uk/sac/FullReport.pdf
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Poll%20Nov%2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Nov04.asp
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Populus Poll (2006): 16% of British Muslims believe suicide attacks against Israelis are justified.
37% believe Jews in Britain are a "legitimate target".
http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

ICM Poll: 13% of Muslim in Britain support al-Qaeda attacks on America.
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/guardian-muslims-march-2004.asp
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Populus Survey: 18% of British Muslims would be proud or indifferent if a family member joined al-Qaeda.
http://www.populuslimited.com/poll_summaries/2006_07_04_Times_ITV.htm
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Policy Exchange (2006): 7% Muslims in Britain admire al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups.
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/libimages/246.pdf
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Center for Social Cohesion: One Third of British Muslim students support killing for Islam
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Muslim-students-killing-Islam-40-want-Sharia-law.html
http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/pdf/IslamonCampus.pdf

Policy Exchange: One third of British Muslims believe anyone who leaves Islam should be killed
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

NOP Research: 78% of British Muslims support punishing the publishers of Muhammad cartoons;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

NOP Research: Hardcore Islamists comprise 9% of Britain's Muslim population;
Another 29% would "aggressively defend" Islam;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

ICM Poll: 11% of British Muslims find violence for religious or political ends acceptable.
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Poll%20Nov%2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Nov04.asp
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

ICM Poll: 40% of British Muslims want Sharia in the UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

GfK NOP: 28% of British Muslims want Britain to be an Islamic state
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

NOP Research: 68% of British Muslims support the arrest and prosecution of anyone who insults Islam;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

Civitas: 1 in 3 Muslims in the UK strongly agree that a wife should be forced to obey her husband's bidding
http://www.imaginate.uk.com/MCC01_SURVEY/Site%20Download.pdf
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

BBC Poll: 1 in 10 British Muslims support killing a family member over "dishonor".
http://www.expressandstar.com/blogs/peter-rhodes/2011/12/28/honour-killing-%E2%80%93-a-stain-on-our-nation/

Two-thirds of young British Muslims agree that 'honor' violence is acceptable.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117003/More-thirds-young-British-Muslims-believe-honour-violence-acceptable-survey-reveals.html

ICM Poll: 11% of British Muslims find violence for political ends acceptable
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Poll%20Nov%2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Nov04.asp
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Cossack
Date: 30 May 13 - 10:08 AM

David the Gnome, I meant take a break from the debate to enjoy an old Cossack song by a modern artist. The Cossack heritage has nothing to do with this debate per se. But you don't meet many people who come from that particular background and when you do, it pricks your ears up. I am Ukrainian on my father's side. My people come from Halychyna which is closer to the Carpathian Mountains and Poland than the Cossack lands which are further East and South. However, the most nationalistic Ukrainians are the ones that live in the West and perhaps oddly, they identify with the Cossacks. The real reason why the Ukrainians that live in the East and South identify as Russian is because of extermination and resettlement in Cossack territories. Something very similar happened in Northern Ireland. Similarly, my lowlander Episcopalian Scot grandfather identified with the Highlanders and "Ladies from Hell."

I think this is known as hijacking a thread. Okay, one more:

Nazar Savko

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 10:29 AM

Thanks Cossack - I will indeed take a break and may even watch the Russian Language version of 'Iron and Blood - The legend of Taras Bulba' later :-) Good job it is sub-tiled though! I only know of the atrocities committed in the Ukraine from the book "A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian". Very good book. Treats the subject seriously but wrapped in a very humourous story. Well worth a read if you haven't done so already.

As I said, my Grandfather was from Krupotkin on the Kuban. My Grandmother, however, was from Bialystok - Which is in the North East of Poland, very close to the Ukraine and Belarus. Oddly enough, and in keeping with the thread, although Grandad was a Russian Orthodox Cossack, during the war he did a lot to help the ghetto-ed Jewish population of Bialystok. I believe it now has a high Moslem population and I suspect if it had been the same in the 1940's he would have done just the same.

Thread drift over.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 13 - 10:41 AM

Great, Bobad - Polls, so it must be true! Ya got any statistics on the number of Muslims who support Manchester United?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 10:55 AM

What have you got Greg?
Nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:02 AM

Statistics are we we have, I'm afraid. Polls may not be completely accurate but they provide at least some measure of opinion. Without them all we have is supposition and guesswork.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:06 AM

"The new head of British security service MI5 Jonathan Evans said on Monday that there are at least 2,000 people in Britain "
Fascinating choice of link here Keith - China - weren't they the ones....?
Never mind - your posting is a typical distortion of what is being discussed here.
Nowhere in Evan's speech does he mention an Islamic threat to Britain - the term is used only once in a reference to "a significant number of young people who have gone to fight in the Yemen" - no mention of how many.
The thrust of his speech is aimed at the threat from the IRA, not from Muslims in Britain.
Also directed at Bobad's 'formidable' list.
No matter what 'facts' have been gathered regarding British Muslims' opinion poll responses, the fact remains that the Muslim communities in Britain are recognised as law-abiding, industrious and least likely to cause offence yet they are the most racially and culturally persecuted people in Britain.
I have no idea of where you gathered your information from, but I was fascinated to find that they are all to be found, using similar wording as you have provided, on the WHITE PRIDE site
Dave:
"When the half million (the figure you quote)"
The figure I quoted was one and a half million.
"then there will be no good reason for anyone to promote anti-Moslem feelings."
There is never a reason to promote anti-any race or religious feeling, certainly not when those who might be involved represent such a minuscule percentage of the Muslim population, but the again, when did racist bigots ever need a reason? (I am in no way suggesting that you are one of those)
Your suggestion of reporting those who are involved in terrorist activity presumes that there are enough of them to have come to general notice - there is no evidence that there are.
The MI5 record speaks for that fact - one of the killers was first asked for information regarding those who might be involved in terrorism, he was then offered a job working for them and finally they lost interest in him altogether - not so much 'after the horse has bolted', rather pretending there was a horse in there in the first place - covering their arses maybe?
"What about Iran, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan"
We can only hope they do get their act together, but as far as the situation stands in Britain, the last thing you do to avoid a holy war at home is to demand that a church takes action on what is a criminal act.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:18 AM

""Don.

Oh well that's alright then, providing of course that there is any such thing as global Islamism.
If you are really so profoundly ignorant, you have no hope of following never mind participating in this discussion.
Look it up Don dear, or leave it to us.""

Unpleasant little wanker at times, aren't you.

Islam is global, but militant radical Islamism seems to consist largely of isolated small groups gathered around so-called Imams whose attitudes are about as xenophobic as yours, and who use cherry picked segments from the Q'ran to incite disaffected idiots to violent action.

You even admitted yourself that it amounts to 2000 or so in this country who are a potential threat according to MI5.

It isn't close to becoming even a national movement within any Western country, let alone a global one. If it were, we would have streets running in blood, and if the inane mumblings of Islamophobes like yourself are given the slightest credence, we one day may.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:33 AM

There are in fact 2.8 million Muslims in the UK now of which, our resident Islamophobe admits, some 2000 are being watched by MI5 as a potential (not definite) threat.

This he claims is a ""small but significant"" number. He also mentions a figure of half a million peaceful Muslims.

So obviously he knows even less about maths than he does about demographics.

Perhaps he would enlighten us with his threat grading of the other 2,298,000

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:38 AM

Unfortunately, Dave, some of the polls - depending on how constructed and administered and to whom can be worse than guesswork at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 13 - 12:11 PM

The apologists demand figures then reject them when provided - anyone surprised?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 12:15 PM

"The apologists demand figures then reject them when provided - anyone surprised?"
The Islamophobes dredge up a bunch of 'facts' from a self confessed white supremist site and act affronted when they are called into question - anybody surprised?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 13 - 12:56 PM

Every one of those figures is referenced, which are from a "self confessed white supremist (sic) site"?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 01:01 PM

"When the half million (the figure you quote)"
The figure I quoted was one and a half million.

Sorry, Jim. I wasn't really paying attention. I have a tad of ADD, especially where rants are concerned!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 01:27 PM

"Every one of those figures is referenced, which are from a "self confessed white supremist (sic) site"
And every one of them contradict the information coming fro elsewhere, including the speech from the MI5 head.
Whatever opinions your polls come up with, in reality the Muslim population in Britain is not officially considered a security threat.
How about some other gathered information - from neither white supremist not Muslim site in return.
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/
https://news.liv.ac.uk/2013/02/08/the-liverpool-view-islamophobia-in-contemporary-britain/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/the-shameful-islamophobia-at-the-heart-of-britains-press-861096.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shahnaz-taplinchinoy/in-britain-politics-of-is_b_908119.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 13 - 02:11 PM

"the Muslim population in Britain is not officially considered a security threat."
,..,
A great comfort to Mrs Rigby, we may be sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 02:47 PM

"A great comfort to Mrs Rigby, we may be sure."
Care to offer some comfort to all those who have suffered and even died at the hands of racist bigots?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:27 PM

I've been trying to stay out of this, but if you want a sure fire wooden nickel posting just trust to trusty old MtheGM.

I haven't got time to blue clicky it, but follow this link http://pastebin.com/Mbc0r8rD for a list of several hundred crimes perpetrated by members of the English Defence League. Does that mean we're all tarred with the same brush because we're all white? No it does not.

The racist murderers of Anthony Walker and Stephen Lawrence were likewise all white. Does the fact they posed a security risk to the Black community mean the rest of us do also? It most certainly does not.

David Copeland, who planted three nail bombs in London was/is a militant fascist and white supremacist whose murderous deeds must surely place him right alongside the most evil of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. Does that make me a threat to UK security because we share the same colour skin, social culture and probably religious background. I most sincerely hope not.

Let's get this straight. The vast majority of Islamic people are not bombers or murderers or terrorists. They are decent hard working respectable people and they do not deserve to be lumped in with the fanatics and nutters as a "security threat". Neither do they deserve the persecution which the vermin of the British far right are currently attempting to inflict on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:39 PM

where is don quixote when we need him