BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 05:59 PM

Yes Wesley, Hyde Park Corner. In the fifties, you could indeed say anything you liked (but not swear) standing on a soapbox. But now, you can't say anything racist or inciting hatred. Freedom of speech no longer really exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 06:06 PM

You can say "Cameron is a fascist idiot", but not say "Cameron is a F*****G fascist idiot?" You can say "Immigrants are taking our jobs but you can't say "Send the F*****G N*****S back where they came from." That is free speech in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: gnu
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 06:21 PM

Free speech is "tempered" with contoversy and the public opinion thereof.

There is no such thing as free speech. You pay for what you say... one way or another. And it does not matter if you speak the truth. What matters is whether your speech is derogatory or helpful.

I would offer that the speech in the OP is beyond anything that would be considered acceptable on any level.

However, to jail this woman?... to suggest her child be taken from her?... well, LH said it. No need for me to repeat it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 06:47 PM

I perhaps have a better understanding of political machinations, than the woman on the tram, but even after a lifetime of political observation,I admit to being utterly bewildered by our immigration policy.

During the last decade we lived through a phoney boom based on credit which in the main could never be repaid.
At the height of this "boom", the labour government actively encouraged "economic immigration" from Eastern Europe.....in the words of our govt ministers, "to make our economy more competitive in the global marketplace"......I will leave you to interpret that statement.

Now our young people are faced with no future, as there are no jobs and no houses for them.....jobs ans social housing have gone in most cases to the immigrants.

There is a growing sense of resentment towards these people ....as shown by the attitude of the "tramlady"....which is understandable, but totally wrong.

The resentment should be aimed at successive UK governments who have cynically used people as pawns to prop up a system which has been shown to have failed us all.

As conditions worsen, be prepared to see a backlash against these economic immigrants, who are already packing their bags for home, as the ship gets lower in the water.

The Political correctness and "liberal" facism, which we were warned about by George Orwell will solve none of the problems surrounding this issue, no matter how much "liberal" Mudcats tut tut or shake their old grey heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 12:44 AM

Of course 'free' speech must be liable to certain restrictions, relating to defamation, conspiracy, incitement, offence, &c. That is simply commonsense.

It has nevertheless struck me as inconsistent and paradoxical from the very first introduction of our various Race Relations legislations that it was those very people most opposed to censorship in any form who were most in favour of these measures.

I made this point once to John Brunner, who replied that racism was in a special category of iniquity & unacceptability; but when I put it to him that there were many people with the same freedoms and same number of votes as himself to whom the word "fuck" was as offensive as was the word "nigger" to him, he thought for a moment & made no reply.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 03:05 AM

I encountered a similar rant when I was on a bus in London with Micca - I think that was 2005.

A besotted man that Micca said was a Scotsman got on the bus, and he went around to foreign-looking people one by one, demanding to see their papers. He ranted about how they were foreigners and didn't belong there. Then he sat down next to me, and sought my agreement. I said, "I'm not a citizen of your country, either, sir - and I certainly don't agree with you!"

I see exhibitions of racism here and there in the U.S., but I don't think I've ever seen anything so overtly racist as this incident I saw. I had always thought that Americans were far more racist than Brits, so I was quite taken aback by this.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Silas
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 04:40 AM

Hi Joe, Please don't think for a moment that this is trpical of the aveage Briton. The reason that it has made such headlines is because it is so unusual.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: jacqui.c
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 08:14 AM

Thinking further on this.

This woman sat on a tram containing quite a diverse group of passengers. She was travelling with a small child, possibly her own son. She began a highly racist rant. At one point the black guy behind her gets up, obviously incensed by her behaviour, but is cautioned to sit back down. Luckily, he heeds the caution.

Just suppose that there had been someone on that tram of a really violent nature? Suppose that person ignored any warning not to get involved. Suppose that person had some sort of weapon with them? It's a bit like shouting fire in a crowded theatre. The possibility of real violence breaking out was palpable. And she had a small child sat on her lap.

Now, to be quite honest, I don't think that it would have bothered me one iota if she had been attacked but she had a small child on her lap. She put that child in imminent danger by her actions, in my opinion just as much as if she had left him alone near an open fire or had left any other dangerous item within reach.

Free speech is fine, so long as the consequences of same are accepted but this little boy was not in that position.

Sorry gnu - I do think that Social Services should be looking at removing this child, even temporarily, to see if this woman can get her head sorted out and act as a mother should, protecting her offspring from danger. At 34 she should be old enough to know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: kendall
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 08:16 AM

Gnu, "As the twig is bent, so is the tree inclined." That child will grow up just like her because she is educating him.

Is Bedlam still open for business? I could only understand half of what was being said. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 09:58 AM

"This woman sat on a tram containing quite a diverse group of passengers."

No, quite normal for the Croydon to New Addington run.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 11:00 AM

"Fuck" is something that everybody does (well, except for the very unlucky). "Nigger" is something that not everybody is. I do not agree that the use of the first term is in any realistic way similar to the latter.

Incitements to hatred are not simply expression, but are oppression. That is why they are rightly controlled.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 11:31 AM

I didn't claim the words, or their use, to be in any way related, similar, or cognate, Richard ~~ simply cited them as two words whose use many people might find offensive and unacceptable.

I suspect you got that really and are merely at your hobby of 'let's stir it up a bit'. In which case, enjoy; but do not expect anybody to be impressed.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 02:49 PM

As an aged stickler, I'm afraid I never accept very bad language in public. I spoke quietly and firmly to three teenagers sitting in our library not too long ago. Every other word was f***, they were speaking loudly and there were young children with their mothers choosing books. They were very good and stopped it immediately, so I thanked them with a smile. It only needs for us all to make clear what is permissible and what is not. But the mothers there hadn't acted, and neither had the librarians. I suppose I could have received a right mouthful, or worse, but someone has to draw a line IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 06:41 PM

Regrettably MtheGM you run up the flag of "offensive in a frankly archaic way without considering why terms may be offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: kendall
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 08:08 PM

Using that kind of gutter language in Maine in public is unlawful.As it should be. I guess nobody told our uncouth oaf of a governor.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: kendall
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 08:09 PM

In public, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 12:31 AM

I concede your point up to a point, Richard. My main problem, I would remind you, was the paradox that it was those very people most opposed to ANY form of censorship who nevertheless were most enthusiastically prepared to welcome such censorship in matters racial. I suggest, and draw, no moral conclusion from this, but simply postulate it as an inconsistency.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 02:36 PM

Well, she has been arrested:
The backlash to the video prompted police to investigate and a woman has been arrested in connection with the video. The woman, 34-year-old Emma West, appeared in court today and has been charged with racial harassment. Frankly, NewsFeed is a bit flabbergasted. We've come to expect a type of vigilante cyber-justice over these types of displays, but having the courts intervene due to hate speech on a YouTube video still seems to be unfamiliar territory.

Read more: HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 03:03 PM

Censorship? No one is trying to prevent free speech, in the proper venue. She is totally allowed to express her point of view in a moderated public forum. It is harassing people, going about their normal business, on public transport that is the crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:24 AM

Surely even had there not been any racist aspect she would still be committing a crime. The racist element only exacerbates it further. Wouldn't she have been at the very least guilty of what we in Scotland call a breach of the peace? Surely it is not just young lads who should be reprimanded for shouting and swearing at people.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:52 PM

Youtube evidence of a stupid biker doing 130 through the Dartford tunnel - and then walking to his own front door (!) has been used to secure a dangerous driving conviction.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:28 PM

I am not aware that ranting at people in public is a crime. Those who disagree need to speak up instead of cowering and waiting for Big Brother to bring down his mighty hand on them. This was a woman with a child, and as such represented no real threat to anyone, unless you think the child is at risk. The child appeared neat, chubby,and well cared for. I can't speak to his mental state, and neither can you. I wouldn't have chosen to have him hear the crap she was spouting, but many of us enlightened ones heard worse as children.
When we look for the law to punish those we disapprove of, the door is truly open to those who disagree with us to have US silenced.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:32 PM

Problem is, there are still people out there whose response could be violent, and with disregard for the child on her lap. Not that that is right, but it is a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:39 PM

There are people out there who will attack someone for wearing furs, wearing KKK robes, seeking birthcontrol, or looking them in the eye. A woman walking down the street with Klan robes and holding a baby probably needs counseling, but I don't think it's illegal nor should it be. There is plenty of room for righteous condemnation of those who are wrong without resorting to making such activity a crime against the state, at least in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:05 PM

She was abusing the other passengers and engaging in public obscenity. At the least, disturbing the peace and disorderly conduct.

Was the child in danger? What if she had chanced upon someone as aggressive and uncontrolled as herself, but more physical. Would she used the boy as a shield? It is more than reckless to pick a fight with strangers on a bus. I think that evoking "big brother" is over the top. I think at the least she needed to be interviewed by public safety professionals to try and determine how much risk she poses to the child and to herself.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:06 PM

I am pretty much in agreement with you, LeeJ. I don't condone what she did, but I'd hate to get hauled in for charges of whatever if a traffic camera caught me flipping off some arsehole who endangers my life and that of my grandson by some irresponsible manoeuvre on their part. Heck as far as that goes, I might get hauled in for sitting on my front step and yelling at people to slow down when they go by at 40-50mph in a 20mph zone!

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:22 PM

Kat, those are both ticketable offenses. I had a couple of months of stressful travel which culminated in my fuse getting too short. I got a warning for flipping off an unmarked patrol car, which was tailgating me for twenty minutes, a while ago. I also had a guy threaten to beat me up in Reston VA for birding him, for cutting me off with no signal. I had to call 911 to get him to stop following me.

I speak from experience. There are real consequences to aggressive anger. The lady needs at least a talking to before someone gets hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:26 PM

Let's have some facts about relevant applicable law.


http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/right-of-free-expression/criminal-law-restrictions-on-freedom-of-expression/racial-hatre

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:36 PM

404 error.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:41 PM

Never attribute to malice that which can be reasonably explained by stupidity.

Spider Robinson

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:57 PM

The best counter to ignorance is information.

Me

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:35 PM

http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/right-of-free-expression/criminal-law-restrictions-on-freedom-of-expression/racial-hatred.htm

Second time lucky

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:38 PM

Soddez cela pour une alouette

Go to

http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/right-of-free-expression/criminal-law-restrictions-on-freedom-of-expression/racial-hatred.html

Then search for "racial hatred"

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 10:14 PM

I doubt if this woman will be charged with inciting racial hatred, and if she is, that would be way OTT. She's breached the peace ok, and in my book it would be fitting that she was "bound ovr? - ie told to behave herself in future. That's assuming she doesn't have mental health issues, just a volatile nature (some of the speculation about which is frankly prurient, especially quasi-clinical long-range diagnosis of the VirginiaTam variety).

Unfortunately I suspect she is being lined up for something a bit more severe than a binding over or conditional discharge, going by the decision - extraordinary on the face of it - to remand her in custody. If so, it won't do her or anybody any good.

Re MtheM's squabble with Richard Bridge, it is surely beyond argument that standards and values in relation to bad language have changed dramatically over the past 40-50 years. A judge in England the other day told police to grow up and stop nicking people for fucking and blinding at them, which is the sort of stuff we are all likely to hear every day.

I agree with Leej about the kid. Toddlers are unbelievably resilient little items.

Eliza: NOT Hyde Park corner. SPEAKERS' Corner. (At the other end of Park Lane: the Marble Arch end.)

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 10:46 PM

So YOU like an HIV positive participant in a London Bath House (oxymoron)

Decide to "SHARE" the virus - with the less disciplined members of Mudcat during AIDS awareness week?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

When asked to an Arbian why the Kurds were dispised - he said, look to your gypsies. The poor in are always with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 04:03 AM

"I'd hate to get hauled in for charges of whatever if a traffic camera caught me flipping off some arsehole who endangers my life and that of my grandson by some irresponsible manoeuvre on their part"

That surely is a bit of a bad comarison and wouldn't be at all comparable with what she did though? She was abusing completely innocent passengers simply because of who they were - not because of anything they had done to endanger her life etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 02:47 PM

So, Christmas in jail for this hapless mum. At a hearing today she was remanded in custody till January 3 - for her own safety. She's paying a high price for her 15 minutes of fame.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16051120

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 03:01 PM

she was remanded in custody till January 3 - for her own safety.

That seems excessive. And if her lawyer applied for bail on her behalf "her own safety" is her concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 03:25 PM

I think we have been given a glimpse of the future.

"Be afraid....etc etc"

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 06:13 PM

how come this was filmed, was it planned?
did the woman know she was being filmed, who videoed it?

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 07:09 PM

This lady is expressing an opinion. An opinion sadly shared by a growing number of middle class in the UK these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 07:23 PM

It looked like somebody caught it on a phone camera. I'm just guessing, based on the finger that gets in the way every so often.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 08:25 PM

Yep, mobiles are everywhere these days, Bluesman. Be very careful....

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 08:36 PM

We all know people like that.

This one is only unusual in that the law wants to make her into a martyr for the Daily Mail readers.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 10:18 PM

"This lady is expressing an opinion. An opinion sadly shared by a growing number of middle class in the UK these days. "


She was also personally abusive and obscene. If she had simply expressed and opinion she'd be able to have Christmas with that little boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 02:35 AM

Appeared in court and remanded.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16051120

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:01 AM

the fact is she is wrong, if someone is born in a country for example England, as many black people are, some are second and third generation, they are English and England is their country, sending people to some other country is not going to cure Englands economic problems,
first point is that certain jobs require certain qualifications, just because someone is white it doesnt mean they are qualified or have the brains to be a Doctor, So suppose we toke this womans advice and sent all black doctors, teachers, lawyers judges somewhere else, it doesnt mean that this woman is eligible to do their job.
what sort of a judge would she make?
I would be very curious to know how English this woman is,
very few English people are of pure anglo saxon descent,
This woman is an uneducated, stupid person

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:07 AM

And she is paying for it.
She will not have Cristmas with her child.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 09:54 AM

The child will probably therefore have a better Christmas in care.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist rant going viral on YouTube
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 10:27 AM

"very few English people are of pure anglo saxon descent,"

I totally agree with everything else you said but found that comment a bit strange. No-one will be of pure Anglo-Saxon descent and even when the English kingdom was first created only some of the English would have been of Anglo-Saxon descent! I don't think even the most extreme of people would define being English as being of 100% Anglo-Saxon descent.