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Subject: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 30 Jan 01 - 05:39 PM This from CNN: Stepping into one of the hottest religious controversies in South Asia, the Dalai Lama has joined Hindu leaders in condemning the Muslim and Christian practice of actively seeking converts. "Whether Hindu or Muslim or Christian, whoever tries to convert, it's wrong, not good," the Dalai Lama said Thursday after a meeting with leaders of the World Hindu Council. The council is an influential group that criticizes Christians and Muslims and wants to make multi-religious India a Hindu state. "I always believe it's safer and better and reasonable to keep one's own tradition or belief," the Dalai Lama, a winner of the Nobel peace prize, said. He spoke after the Hindu Council's general secretary, Ashok Singhal, had said, "Buddhism, Hinduism and other non-aggressive religions have to unite to douse Islam ... an aggressive religion." The Dalai Lama and others signed a statement saying: "We oppose conversions by any religious tradition using various methods of enticement." Hindus and Buddhists generally do not try to converts [sic] non-believers. Hmmm. Seems to me if everybody had always stayed with the religion they were born in, there wouldn't BE any Buddhists. But what do I know? I'm from an "aggressive" religion. If a Muslim or Christian cleric made such a blanket condemnation of other religious faiths, it would be on page 1 and everyone would be howling. The Dalai Lama does it and it's buried in the back and nobody notices -- or raises a peep if they do. Hmmmmm. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Ella who is Sooze Date: 30 Jan 01 - 05:45 PM I didn't know Lamas were stripey.. Sorry couldn't resist it... mention religion and I stick my fingers in my ears and hummm loudly... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Greg F. Date: 30 Jan 01 - 05:55 PM I'm pretty much with Ella on this one (begins humming loudly)but I think rather than "condemning religious faiths" he's condemning some over-zealous practices thereof, thusly:
The Dalai Lama and others signed a statement saying: "We oppose conversions by any religious tradition using various methods of enticement." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: MMario Date: 30 Jan 01 - 05:59 PM Mousethief - *I* oppose any conversions based on enticement. So do many Christians I know. Unfortunatly - as we both know - there are branches of our faith that not only believe in enticement - but in practice go beyond enticement to what may would call "forced conversion". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 30 Jan 01 - 05:59 PM Um, "unite to douse Islam" -- that sounds pretty much like a blanket condemnation of a religion, not just over-zealous members thereof. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Jim the Bart Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:01 PM Alex, I tend to agree with Greg on this one. There is huge difference between seeking enlightenment and seeking converts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:01 PM You people are missing the lynchpin of his statement: I always believe it's safer and better and reasonable to keep one's own tradition or belief This is not just a condemnation of inticement, or hucksters, or zealots. It's a condemnation of any conversion by any person for any reason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Lanfranc Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:03 PM Unfortunately, Christians at least (I cannot speak for Muslims) do preach that no other faith is valid. "I am the way, the truth and the life ..." One incident from history that reinforces this prejudice. When the "Christian" Crusaders arrived in Palestine, they massacred the first bunch of local "infidels" they came across. This was a shame, because the "infidels" were, in fact, Christians! cf Northern Ireland I despair of all religions that preach intolerance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:11 PM There are 22 different threads on proselytizing HERE, where intelligent, passionate people of diverse belief systems and opinions have been hashing this complicated issue out for over a year. I don't suppose anyone in those threads there is likely to break into song over their feelings, but then I don't see that occurring in this thread, either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Biskit Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:24 PM I will always find it AMAZING that, as many people that read a single statement can get so many different meanings from it. Perhaps you should try to reread this statement,...keeping in mind that this is a man of peace, who has suffered religious as well as political persecution. It seems to me he has a very good idea rather than say my religeon is better than your religion, let each man/woman find his way to something greater than himself,in the way that he/she is most comfortble with. I can see NO WHERE in that statement that he is saying any conversion is right or wrong, but rather follow what you believe! Peace!(through understanding)-Biskit- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: BanjoRay Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:34 PM This is one of the most intelligent things I've ever heard a person say about religion. YOUR religion is YOUR business and no one else's. Cheers |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:38 PM Yes, too bad the Dalai Lama didn't say it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:44 PM Alex? Whaddaya DOING? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Biskit Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:50 PM Sorry about the triple post,...may be the elves will fix that.Hi Praise!..er I mean WYSIWYG and ya just never know when I might break into song....(snicker) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST,ALBO Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:57 PM Breaking into song here: "Does the Dalai Lama wear his pajama whenever he wants to dance?" Leon Albo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:59 PM Susan, Goring a sacred cow? Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Biskit Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:00 PM I'm no authority on dancin' in PJs but I suppose he could if he wanted too... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:04 PM Thank God for some comic relief. (Ooops, mentioned God again.) And a song. Let's just move the whole topic into a song. I spent the last year working out religious differences with JUST ONE person-- and we concluded, at one point, that if a thing didn't make us want to sing or write a new song, we weren't ready to talk about it yet! No, it wasn't that bleak-- we did talk, and talk, and talk, and do a lot of gnashing of teeth-- our own and each other's. But we did agree that if things got too serious to sing about, there was trubble on the near horizon. And talk between two friends can handle what forum posts can't. Plain and simple. Although I realize that forum posts can handle what two friends can't, as well. Look. I have been the most thoroughly flamed Christian here, I think. I mean AS a Christian, for being one... for discussing religion from what is perceived as the Christian view, from my view of what that would be... And... dang it! I think I've learned a bit about what does and does not work at the Mudcat. Sheeshe... but don't listen to me, what do I know? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:05 PM Golly, I haven't seen any flames here yet, Susan, just honest disagreement. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:06 PM Alex, darlin', are we called to do that? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: katlaughing Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:10 PM Oh, Alex, that was baaaddd....of all the leaders in the world, His Holiness the Dalai Lama is hardly a sacred cow; he is revered and looked up to and more importantly emulated...sacred cows, IMO, are not, they are facades constructed for false comfort and security by unthinking masses. You qouted him; I always believe it's safer and better and reasonable to keep one's own tradition or belief. and said: This is not just a condemnation of inticement, or hucksters, or zealots. It's a condemnation of any conversion by any person for any reason. It is safer and better and reasonable...which means, to me, it is for our own highest good to follow that path which is ours, which we feel most safe, better and reasonable following than others. This statement also implies it is not safe, better, nor reasonable to mind about other people's religion, instead of our own. I think you are taking this as a blanket statement of some kind which the history of this man does not bear out, Alex. I, for one, am glad to see him take a stronger stand. Someone needs to speak out about the zealots who throughout history and now, continue to coerce, maim, and murder in the name of their religion supposedly being the one and only true path to god. Just look at the history of Native America or the women of Afghanistan, at the moment. They all had or are having certain religious conversions forced on them. Of course not all Christians or Muslims do this, but I didn't see him saying that either. I would ask you one question though: how many instances of Buddhism doing the same as the above can be said? I think you are barking up the wrong tree, my friend. kat
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:12 PM Alex. Starting a disagreement, goring what someone holds dear... are those our primary calling? You think just because the flames aren't out in the open, they're gone? You see the names of the flamers among posts, suddenly being all nice in these threads? You think this thread will help the atmosphere when I post a thread merely notifying people that the prayer chain is up and running, and how to contact someone to join? You don't think people are suddenly, since the Serious Questions for Christians thread, posting a lot more song requests with Jesus or God in the titles, and that this isn't going to boil over causing someone some real offense? You think it's become a tolerant planet all of a sudden? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Gary T Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:19 PM In the context of the whole piece presented, I read this: "Buddhism, Hinduism and other non-aggressive religions have to unite to douse Islam ... an aggressive religion." to mean temper the observed tendency of Islam to actively attempt conversion, NOT to eliminate Islam. Basically, it's saying "These religions (in the time and place referred to by the speaker) need to stand together and tell Islam to LET US BE." It may well be that a Muslim or Christian cleric making a similar statement would rouse much ire, but I believe that would be because those two religions have a history of denigrating other religions--as demonstrated, in part, by their tendency to each proclaim itself the only valid faith, and therefore aggressively seek converts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Biskit Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:21 PM Yeah Alex! WHAT THEY JUS' SAID!!well,...he wouldn't listen when I said it...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: katlaughing Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:25 PM I did, Biskit! well-done, darlin'! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:36 PM The Dalia Lama and the Pope both wear Doc Martin boots from time to time.
I like to remember that when things get heated.
What he is quoted as saying here sounds as if he was trying to cool things down rather than stir them up, which is consistent with his general approach to life.
There's a whole difference between, on the one hand, letting people know what your religion is all about, and accepting them into it should they choose to come, and on the other hand, energetically setting out to proselytise aggressively, with bribes and threats.
The other side of it, of course, is where people are persecuted as apostates when they choose to change religions, and I didn't see anything in the quotes from the Dalai Lama about that. I would be pretty certain that he would disapprove of that kind of thing, and it would be interesting to hear what he has to say about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Bill D Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:59 PM asking people to NOT twist arms in the name of 'truth' is hardly condemnation. And I suppose if his Lamaship were to be asked, he might very well phrase his attitude in a way that didn't disturb those from religions in which recruiting is standard practice. I have FAR too many honest, zealous Christians stand and look into my eyes and INFORM me that other religions were not just a 'different' way to heaven...but *WRONG*! And that I was going to hell if...etc., etc...They carried a bible which stated sort of clearly that .."no man cometh to the Father, but by me" and that it was their DUTY to spread the word and save souls from error and sin. Now, there is quite a variety of views and practices about this among the Christian churches...some knock on doors ...and establish 'foreign missions' to save the heathen...some merely worship quietly and invite interested parties to see what they offer. But there are in the Bible many passages which can easily be read to suggest that 'agressiveness' in the name of truth is a FINE idea!...and I can see where certain other religions might just not be comfortable with that pervasive, implied threat to their existence! The Dalai Lama has gone for MANY years saying very little on this (that I have seen, anyway)..maybe 40 years traveling the world and being exposed to the various degress of 'agressiveness' has raised his consciousness. I don't like telemarketers, I don't like infomercials, I don't like spam trying to sell me cable de-scramblers, and I don't like being told..to my face OR by slogans on my money and in the proclamations of my new president that ANY specific religion is in 'favor'....(and please don't insult my intelligence by telling me that one basic brand of religion is NOT being favored right now) I have always stood FIRMLY for anyone's right to build a church and worship turnips, if that's what moves 'em....but I also don't like turnips! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:12 PM Oh Bill, you ARE a curmudgeon! That turnip line-- can I quote that any and everywhere? It's perfect! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST,ALBO Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:12 PM Dear WYSIWYG, Thank you for the compliment but I ain't God; I am ALBO. Though I have been likened to Him. "God and old ALBO, they never change!" Well, I do get older! And,HEY!, What's this "comic relief" bit? "The Tamale Song" is a SEEEREEEUS SONG! I should know, after all, I am a serious fellow. PS (Before its time) Old ALBO ain't gonna "flame" ya! What is WYSIWYG anyway...What you sell is what you give? Leon Albo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Biskit Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:30 PM Sorry Albo, I didn't know that was a lyric I thought you were askin' a philly'osophical question. Gawd! I fool so feelish |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST,Dalai Lama's Lama Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:30 PM Mousethief=confrontation b.t.w......night=night and day=day |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:37 PM WYSIWYG = What You See Is What You Get You sure you ain't Al Bolene from Abilene, married up with Albolena? *G*
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:44 PM Why, You Schlep In With Young Goys ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:51 PM I think the Dalai Lama is correct, but will his comments do any good? It seems to me that those who are aggressive in their proselytizing, can often be very altruistic in their motivation. They generally seem to believe that if the heathens aren't converted, they'll suffer an awful fate. I think it can actually be worse within a religious denomination. You should see how right-wing Catholics react to my liberal ideas - they're sure I'm damned to hell; and that that as a religion teacher, I'm going to drag a lot of innocent souls down into the fires with me. I spend time at a Catholic discussion forum, just to remind the right-wingers that there is an opposing point of view. They think I'm 'orrible, and I'm proud of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Bill D Date: 30 Jan 01 - 09:19 PM "It seems to me that those who are aggressive in their proselytizing, can often be very altruististic in their motivation" Indeed so! I never doubted that...I'm quite sure that many consider me a pretty nice guy who feeds the birds and deosn't beat his wife and really SHOULD be saved from the eternal fire...but they never seem to comprehend that I would have to be convinced that there IS an eternal fire first...or that there are SO many holes and circular reasonings in their attempts to show me a 'reason' to accept their premises.... It truly would not be a big deal if religion were kept a quiet, personal thing...I can even understand the urge to look to a higher power to sort out some of life's mysteries and complications, and I half-way envy those who can make Kierkegaard's "Leap of Faith" and just accept 'X' and deduce most additional answers FROM 'X'...I just can't do that...but I will VERY seldom go out of my way to start a discussion with MY opinion. Wish the local Mormon Church felt the same way.(and the kid I met on the bus who started preaching from the back row!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Bill D Date: 30 Jan 01 - 09:21 PM (oh...forgot..Susan..all posts of mine are hereby proclaimed to be 'public domain'..*grin*...quote as you please) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 30 Jan 01 - 11:46 PM Thank you, everyone, for your responses. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Brendy Date: 31 Jan 01 - 12:24 AM Wouldn't expect too much more from a 'white, former Renaissance man' We must have a decent chinwag about the sacking of Constantinople one of these days. NOT! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Grab Date: 31 Jan 01 - 09:53 AM Alex, define "one's own tradition or belief". Maybe to some ppl this means "stick with the religion you were born into". To me, it means "stick with the religion you think is right". The issue at stake is that various organisations are descending like vultures onto poor countries to try and whip up converts, usually by providing aid to those who agree to convert. If you and your family are starving, you'll likely sign yourself up to Billy Graham (or whoever)'s latest venture if they're handing out food and clothing - you'd sign up to Alestair Crowley's missionary if you had to! That's the "bread"; these guys also provide the "circus" as well. Put on a hell of a show, and ppl will turn up to take their minds off their everyday problems. They won't believe in your religion, any more than a stadium of rock fans believe that the Gallagher brothers are sent by God, it's just that the show is something to pass the time. So the guys doing this come home and say "Yeah folks, we've made 100,000 ppl Christians out there", so everyone gives them donations. In fact they've made no real converts, they've just got ppl to sign on the dotted line, but if you do believe in the religion then you have to believe that these ppl have just signed their souls (literally!) to the new religion. If you believe in that, then that's a pretty big deal, don't you think? Grab. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 31 Jan 01 - 11:49 AM Grab, I agree such practices are heinous. Brendy, I'm sorry I'm white, but there's nothing I can do about it now. I'm sorry you have to use that to attack me with, and what that says about you. Alex
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST,Matt_r Date: 31 Jan 01 - 11:52 AM The Dalai Lama wears togas with no sleeves! He has no stripes! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Peter T. Date: 31 Jan 01 - 12:40 PM As a Buddhist I have stayed out of this because everyone else -- including the Christians and atheists alike -- was making my arguments way better than I could, but just to add another dimension. The Dalai Lama and the international Buddhist community have 3 great struggles going on simultaneously, which is some background. I disagree that His Holiness was making a "blanket condemnation" of other religions, but anyway.... 1) There is a huge wave of Christian evangelical prosyletizing going on in all Buddhist countries, almost none of which is being done with any sensitivity at all. The Pope, for instance, came to Seoul, Korea and had a mass in a central square that is an important Buddhist site, and no one paid the slightest attention to the protests of the Buddhist community. There are all sorts of other things going on (buying children, etc. to bring up in Christian families) that I won't go into. These are not fables. The fact that the Buddhist community is not responding particularly creatively to this is an important related issue, but this is what is going on. In my own city, Toronto, elderly Koreans are persecuted for belonging to a "pagan" church. They are followed, harassed, phoned up, their children harangued. I know this personally, I have seen it. It is a mild version of what is happening elsewhere by international evangelical organizations egging people on. 2) In India, because Hinduism used to be very eclectic, the Buddha was considered to be a Hindu avatar (an incarnation of Vishnu). Buddhists disagree with this, obviously. The problem is that all the holy sites of Buddhism and much pseudo-buddhist stuff were (until very recently, and the struggle goes on) run by, or pushed out by Hindus. It would be like Muslims saying that they are the real Christians because Jesus is in the Koran (and there are some who do) -- and running churches proclaiming themselves to be so. 3) (1) and (2) are run-of-the-mill problems. The big problem for Buddhists is more troubling. Some years ago, thanks to evangelical Christianity, a number of new religions arose calling themselves Buddhist -- Nichiren Shoshu being the most benign, some extremely dangerous. Their Number One difference from real Buddhists is that they actively prosyletize, set up intense small groups, and deny that anyone else is a real Buddhist. Some of them believe that unless a substantial portion of the world's population is converted to Buddhism by 2100, the apocalpyse will arrive, and so on. Because there is no international Buddhist church or organization (in spite of what some people think, the Dalai Lama is not a pope; in fact, getting Buddhists to agree on anything is like trying to organize a cat parade), the international Buddhist community has been tied in knots trying to stop these pseudo-Buddhist cults, some of whom are quite dangerous. I know because I had to rescue a woman from such a cult, which took a year of hard work. There have been various statements, gatherings, and so on, from leaders of the Buddhist community, trying to send the message that these cults are dangerous, and that the one way in which to tell that they are not Buddhist is that Buddhists do not go around trying to convert people. If you run into one, then you should be very suspicious. This is perhaps behind some of what I consider to be quite reasonable and indeed exemplary remarks by His Holiness. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 31 Jan 01 - 12:47 PM I agree, Peter T., that being obnoxious and/or insensitive about other people's religions is wrong (your point #1), and that harassing someone because they are of a different religion than oneself (your point #2) is wrong (very, very wrong, in fact). I don't see, however, how these new Buddhist-offshoot cults you mention (in #3) can be laid at Evangelical Christianity's door; were they founded by Christians? Or do you just mean they have taken the obnoxious habits of some Christians as an example for their own misguided behavior? Thanks for your post, and the pleasant and non-insulting tone with which you wrote it. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Biskit Date: 31 Jan 01 - 12:52 PM WHATTHEHECKDOYAMEAN! you're sorry you're white!!! BLUECHEESEANDCRACKERS,man don't appologize for being yourself,we love you man! we may not agree with ya all the time, but I really don't think a dye job is called for.a rather ruffled -Biskit- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 31 Jan 01 - 12:54 PM I was being sarcastic, Biskit. But thanks 1E6 for your approval. It does feel good to be appreciated or loved or whatever. I know I can raise hackles, but underneath I'm really not such a bad guy (even if I am white, and a post-renaissance man). Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: katlaughing Date: 31 Jan 01 - 12:59 PM Thanks, PeterT, for telling us more and giving us your take on things. I didn't know that about the pseudo-Buddhist cults. MattR, it is a robe he wears. Togas are short and were worn in the Mediterannean region. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Peter T. Date: 31 Jan 01 - 01:14 PM Sorry, I was trying to save space in an already too long post. Some of them simply took the evangelical model; some were started by people who had been Christians for awhile and then drifted. They have consistently modelled themselves on evangelicals, but with a series of Buddhic twists --for example, in place of voices or laying on of hands or possession, they have hours of highspeed chanting; they also do a lot with "sacred unchallengeable texts" (The Lotus Sutra) etc. (Mainstream Buddhists don't consider their texts sacred, only revered). yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Brendy Date: 31 Jan 01 - 01:19 PM About as much as starting a thread 'goring a sacred cow' says about you. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Biskit Date: 31 Jan 01 - 01:32 PM (:) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 31 Jan 01 - 01:32 PM Sigh. Guess you were right, Susan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: annamill Date: 31 Jan 01 - 01:35 PM He spoke after the Hindu Council's general secretary, Ashok Singhal, had said, "Buddhism, Hinduism and other non-aggressive religions have to unite to douse Islam ... an aggressive religion." Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but isn't it the general secretary making this statement? It wasn't the Dalai Lama. Love, annamill
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: katlaughing Date: 31 Jan 01 - 01:40 PM Brendy...leave it go, willya, darlin'? I'd just as soon keep my better opinion of you, from the Roma threads, intact.:-) kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 31 Jan 01 - 01:41 PM Good eye, Annamill. Still I'm surprised he would associate himself with a group that would make such a statement, a group pressing for the declaration of India as a "Hindu state." Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Brendy Date: 31 Jan 01 - 02:01 PM Never did get an apology for being called a liar, kat. And don't tell me what to do! ;) B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Jan 01 - 02:12 PM I would just reiterate that a better atmosphere for a really full exploration of these issues is at Beliefnet. These include open discussion boards as well as dialog groups that can be set up for a defined group of people to explore a topic together over a period of time. PeterT's post... is typical of many Beliefnet posts' depth and clarity... and is the one that is echoing for me most loudly out of this whole thread. If I wanted to go farther in this topic, it would be in that direction. But I am not willing to go further on this topic with side-sniping going on at the same time. It's hard enough to think widely and clearly and deeply enough about these difficult issues. I won't waste my good mind in a setting that invites the derailment of honest efforts to communicate, anymore. I'll say my piece and hear others'... but we can go several rounds farther and deeper in another mode of operation. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Jan 01 - 03:27 PM I'd imagine we are all post-renaissence. Don't have much choice about it really, sinc that stuff was back in the 16th century or so... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Kim C Date: 31 Jan 01 - 03:34 PM There's a song that goes, you go to your church and I'll go to mine but let's walk along together. Sounds simple to me. Maybe I oversimplify. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Grab Date: 31 Jan 01 - 04:35 PM Wonder if I can lay claim to being a pre-Renaissance man? Certainly a few of my atoms have probably been around since before then. And the smell's fairly mature... ;-) Grab. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Jim the Bart Date: 31 Jan 01 - 05:05 PM This is all very interesting. Thanks for the info Peter T., et al. Thanks for starting it up Thief. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 31 Jan 01 - 06:05 PM There. See?! At least ONE person is glad this thread exists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: katlaughing Date: 31 Jan 01 - 06:20 PM I am glad, too, Alex, there is no reason we cannot have these discussions here, on the Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST,dickless Date: 31 Jan 01 - 06:23 PM You people make me throw up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Bill D Date: 31 Jan 01 - 08:35 PM Mudcat has a bright future as an emetic, I see...;>) it's good to be useful.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Sorcha Date: 31 Jan 01 - 09:05 PM My only comment is, "Oh, for pity's sake, why can't some of you grow up?" I don't CARE what anyone else believes, or really what they do about that belief, as long as THEY DON'T HURT ANYBODY DOING IT!!
"Hurt anybody doing it" includes knocking on my door to tell me I am going to Hell if I don't change my ways. It includes telling anyone what they may not do with their own body regarding sex or the results thereof. It includes telling me "EXACTLY what God is or is not" or what S/He "approves" of.........
Don't tell ME what MY God "approves" of!! And I won't tell you what yours approves of!!And don't knock on my door to tell me that your God is better than mine!! I will (and have done) slam it in your face. Thanks, Peter T, for a very informative post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Peter T. Date: 01 Feb 01 - 09:45 AM Since there seem to be some reasonable discussants here, I suppose it is worth putting the other side of the story -- though my religion is suffering from it. If your religion believes that everyone who does not believe in your religion is denied by God or is doomed to Hell, it seems to me that you would be duty bound by love and compassion to convert as many people as you could, like saving people from drowning -- even if, or especially if, they did not realise they were drowning. Also, if you had been irradiated by the love of Jesus or Allah or whomever, wouldn't you want to share it, knock on people's doors, etc.? Buddhist don't do any of this partly because there is a deep scepticism in the faith about anyone's ability to know anything much, and being easily deluded: but I can see why people would do it. I will fight it, but I can see why people would do it. One of the problems Buddhists have is that we tend to treat deluded people with great care and good manners, sort of like a maddened horse you are trying to calm down. This may not be a good shortterm strategy for dealing with evangelical anyone. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Feb 01 - 10:15 AM Actually, Peter, if you were to treat me like that, I think it would preclude the development of effective communication. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Peter T. Date: 01 Feb 01 - 10:40 AM I know. It very quickly turns into a kind of cool arrogance -- a besetting Buddhist sin. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mousethief Date: 01 Feb 01 - 11:46 AM Do buddhists believe in sin? I'm asking seriously. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Biskit Date: 01 Feb 01 - 11:48 AM Kim C, Faith is a very simple thing that folks love to make seem difficult. The folks I don't understand are the ones that profess to believe in nothing.ie;If ya don't believe in something, you're liable to fall for anything.Anyway i'd like to know the rest of the words to that song Kim, I(believe)I'd make it my standard.*GRIN*-Biskit- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Feb 01 - 12:13 PM Peter, maybe your point illustrates why diversity is so deeply satisfying, and so deeply unsettling. We jiggle each other's besetting sins that way and everyone remains challenged to keep thinking and to be as aware as possible. If we choose to be open to that, it's a wonderful thing to engage in. ~Susan
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Biskit Date: 01 Feb 01 - 01:03 PM Long Live diversoty, deverceety, well shit! Long live folks bein' different,I like'em that way! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Feb 01 - 01:13 PM You are all cordially invited to visit THIS THREAD for a related discussion. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Peter T. Date: 01 Feb 01 - 01:31 PM There are lots of different kinds of Buddhists, but most of them don't believe in sin (I was using a Western idiom), but in failure, failings, mistakes, false perceptions. Some Buddhists -- this is controversial -- believe in a form of karma. Some versions of Hindu karma are deterministic -- you did this before, the consequences including new bad actions will occur, etc. -- but Buddhists who subscribe to a doctrine of karma believe it to be connected to intention and not machinelike. The underlying structure is a bit more complicated: karma originally comes from a Hindu (early Sanskrit) word meaning to make a slight mistake in a formal ritual -- like turning left when you should have turned right in a dance -- thus "polluting" the ritual. This was later transferred to personal mistakes in the larger ritual structure of the universe (as Hinduism stopped being a public tribal ritual, and become individual or family oriented). It is widely assumed in Eastern religions that the universe has a deeply ingrained moral structure, like a grain running through wood, and that human beings are cross-grained against that "natural" moral structure. The best example of something similar is when you have practiced something for a long time and it becomes pretty natural, like a song or a dance, and then one day while performing it, you are carried away by it to the best performance you have ever done, without your consciously doing anything. The small self has been transcended. This is what is referred to as the Dharma or (in China) the Tao. Human failings are failures (by arrogance or ego or greed or whatever) to live according to the Dharma. Buddhist, Taoist, and other practices -- meditation, etc. -- are partly designed to get your irritating self out of the way of the Dharma, so it (and you) can function properly. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Mr Happy Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:35 PM the dalai lama goes into Pizza Hut. The assistant says 'What pizza toppings would u like?' DL: 'what do you have?' Asst: 'cheese + tomato, with or without pepperoni, prawn & pineapple, ham,cheese & apple frites, mushroom,spinach & kiwi fruit; what would you like?' Dalai Lama replies, 'Make me one with everything!' [the owld 'uns are the best!] 8-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Sorcha Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:18 PM I can just see it---I knock on a door, person answers, and I say "Hi, I'm not here to convert you, but do you know about Paganism?" Sheeeeeeeesh. Just stay off my porch and you will be OK. "Paganism" is just about the most diverse thing you can imagine. More so than Muslim, Christian or Bhuddist. Just to be allowed to do your own thing is all that is important. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: CraigS Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:25 PM A friend of mine, a Hindu, once said to me "Christianity is not our way, but it is a path to enlightenment. It is enough that a man should seek enlightenment." While, in sympathy with the Dalai Lama, I am annoyed that Christian evangelists seek to foist their version of enlightenment on the world at large,I am upset that this should be placed on a par with Islam, with its violent legal system, discrimination against women, and cruel methods of slaughtering animals, amongst other outmoded things. The prophet was trying to optimise worship and living, but died before he had succeeded. People who think what he left behind was enough should join the Flat Earth Society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Fortunato Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:36 PM For those who would know what the Dalai Lama truly does believe, he has written some fine books about compassion. I recommend them to you. cheers, Fortunato. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:40 PM I couldn't find the CNN article quoted above to verify the claims made by Mousethief about what the Dalai Lama did/didn't say, but I did find this on Beliefnet.com, which is apparently the same story (going by the closeness of the dates of the CNN story & this one). This is an excerpt of a longer article, found here: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/64/story_6448_1.html Dalai Lama Condemns Islamic and Christian Practice of Conversions What did they mean by 'dousing Islam?' Will we see Buddhists joining Hindu militants in attacks on Muslims and Christians? By Muqtedar Khan Reprinted with permission from iviews.com India, Jan. 27 -- (Iviews) The Dalai Lama, the spiritual and political leader of the Buddhist community, recently attacked Islam and Christianity for trying to spread their faith. He joined leaders of the Hindu religion, who were celebrating the Kumbh Mela last week in condemning the Muslim and Christian practice of actively seeking converts. Kumbh Mela is a Hindu festival of spiritual cleansing that is celebrated once every twelve years by over 50 million adherents who come to Ayodhya to take a dip in the river Ganges. "Whether Hindu or Muslim or Christian, whoever tries to convert, it's wrong, not good," the Dalai Lama said on Thursday after a meeting with leaders of the World Hindu Council. The World Hindu Council ironically is an influential group that criticizes Christians and Muslims and yet wants to make multi-religious India a Hindu state by forcing Muslims and Christians to convert to Hinduism. There are over 150 million Muslims and about 35 million Christians in India. Groups like the World Hindu Council, The Shiv Sena (Army of Shiva), RSS (a Hindu nationalist outfit responsible for assassinating Mahatma Gandhi) and several other militant Hindu groups have recently stepped up their vicious attacks on Muslim and Christian minorities in India. The most egregious of such attacks was the cruel burning alive of an Australian missionary and his two children. Dalai Lama, a winner of the Nobel peace prize, joined these militant nationalist Hindu outfits and added: "I always believe it's safer and better and reasonable to keep one's own tradition or belief." He spoke after the Hindu Council's general secretary, Ashok Singhal, had said, "Buddhism, Hinduism and other non-aggressive religions have to unite to douse Islam ... an aggressive religion." The Dalai Lama joined others and signed a statement saying: "We oppose conversions by any religious tradition using various methods of enticement." This strange act of Dalai Lama deserves to be criticized by the international community that has not only respected his struggle against China but also legitimized it by bestowing upon him its highest honor – a Nobel Prize for peace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Frankham Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:47 PM Very interesting thread. I got from the statement that the Dalai Lama was asking for tolerance and the temperence against religious zeal and fanaticism. The word "douse" doesn't mean to me by fire but maybe by water. But as was stated: "Buddhism, Hinduism and other non-aggressive religions have to unite to douse Islam ... an aggressive religion." was not stated by the Dalai Lama but the Secretary of the Hindu Council. It seems as though these two statements were strategically and contextually placed to make a point about the Dalai Lama which might be erroneous. Even CNN can do stuff like this. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Amos Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:00 PM Anyone who has toyed with enlightenment knows that being drawn into conviction by enticement is an absolutely sure path into a dead end. His statement is wise and appropriate. In addition to offering a false trail, it also makes competitirs out of people who are offering trails up the same mountain. How silly is that? Especially since those who take their "convictions" a little too seriously are awfully fond of turning religous views into political grounds for slaughter or other "disincentives". A belief worth having does not need "enticement" -- it just needs discovery by the individual concerned. Otherwise, ti's a fairy tale. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mack/misophist Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:43 PM I suspect a malicious mistranslation is what we see here. The second greatest figure in Buddhism, Bodhidharma, was a missionary. He carried Buddhism to China. It's true the Tibetan's don't seek converts but that has not always been true of Buddhism in general. Something is rotten in Denmark. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 03 Feb 03 - 10:09 PM I don't really understand why no one here gets the problem with what the Dalai Lama is doing. This article aligns the Dalai Lama with fundamentalist Hindu nationalists, who have been responsible for horrendous violence against Indian Muslims, and increasing (in frequency and intensity) attacks on secularism, foreigners, Christians, "Indian anti-nationalists" (as they call anyone who disagrees with the their Hindu agenda), etc. People here truly don't seem aware that: 1) the Dalai Lama & his religious followers live in exile in India; 2) that there is a community of Tibetan Buddhists caught between a rock and a hard place in Kashmir, the territory being fought over by Muslim fundamentalist dominated Pakistan and Hindu nationalist dominated India; 3) since the battle of Kargil (in Kashmir) several years ago, native Buddhists and Tibetan refugees have emerged as India's most effective fighting force along the Line of Control that separates the Indian and Pakistani sectors of Kashmir. So maybe instead of just jumping on His Holiness' (supposedly pacifist and non-violent) bandwagon because he denounces Christian and Muslim fundamentalists, you should be asking yourselves why the Dalai Lama gave his blessings to a 4,000-man paramilitary unit of local Buddhists and Tibetan commandos. Just as the fighting erupted at Kargil, the Dalai Lama happened to be visiting the Jivay Tsal, his palatial residence near Choklamsar, the sprawling Tibetan refugee camp outside Leh. The new-found Buddhist militancy arises from modern-day national interests and not from historical conflicts with Islam. Despite their conflict with Sufi-Muslim militants of the Kashmir Valley, the Buddhist community had, until recently lived mostly in harmony with the Shia Muslims of Kargil who are wary of their Sunni-dominated Pakistan neighbor. Here is a link to the "Hindu agenda" of the organization the Dalai Lama has aligned himself with, the World Hindu Council: http://www.vhp.org/englishsite/f.Hindu_Agenda/HinduAgenda_E.htm To gain an understanding of how these supposedly "secular" Hindu nationalist organizations are forcing a fundamentalist Hindu national agenda on the unsuspecting, you can hear a very informative interview about it from WBEZ/Chicago Public Radio with Angana Chatterji, Professor of Social and Cultural Anthropology at the California Institute of Integral Studies. It is available on RealPlayer, and though the program is rather long, it does explain the dynamics on the ground in India. It was taped last October. Find it here, and scroll to the bottom of the page. http://www.wbez.org/services/wv_raoct02.htm And just so you know where fundamentalist Hindu nationalism is at these days, here is a site Angana Chatterji suggests Americans look at for an understanding of the movement in India: http://www.hinduunity.org Not the guys I'd want MY religious or secular leaders aligning themselves and their (selectively) non-violent Buddhist communities with in the name of Tibetan freedom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 03 Feb 03 - 10:32 PM I just remembered this recent PBS special on fundamentalist Hindu nationalism too: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/about/film10.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:17 PM Human Rights Watch gave this overview of the situation in India in 2001, including references to the BJP & World Hindu Council the Dalai Lama aligned himself with to oppose "conversions" here: http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/asia/india.html They also have drawn attention recently (in 2002) to this organization's direct involvement in anti-Muslim violence which has left approximately 1,000 Muslims dead: http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/gujarat.htm I quote from the above article: "Starting February 28, 2002, a three-day retaliatory killing spree by Hindus left hundreds dead and tens of thousands homeless and dispossessed. The looting and burning of Muslim homes, businesses, and places of worship was also widespread. Muslim girls and women were brutally raped. Mass graves have been dug throughout the state. Gravediggers told Human Rights Watch that bodies keep arriving, burnt and mutilated beyond recognition. Burnt Muslim shops and restaurants dot the main roads and highways in Ahmedabad. Neighboring Hindu establishments remain notably unscathed. Between February 28 and March 2, thousands of attackers descended on Muslim neighborhoods, clad in saffron scarves and khaki shorts, the signature uniform of Hindu nationalist groups, and armed with swords, sophisticated explosives, and gas cylinders. They were guided by voter lists and printouts of addresses of Muslim-owned properties-information obtained from the local municipality. In the weeks following the attacks, Hindu homes and businesses were also destroyed in retaliatory attacks by Muslims. The groups most directly involved in the violence against Muslims include the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Council, VHP), the Bajrang Dal, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) that heads the Gujarat state government. Collectively, they are known as the sangh parivar, or family of Hindu nationalist organizations. The Gujarat state administration has been engaged in a massive cover-up of the state's role in the massacres and that of the sangh parivar. Numerous police reports filed by eyewitnesses after the attacks have specifically named local VHP, BJP, and Bajrang Dal leaders as instigators or participants in the violence. The police, reportedly under instructions from the state, face continuous pressure not to arrest them or to reduce the severity of the charges filed. Top police officials who sought to protect Muslims have been removed from positions of command." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:42 PM No "His Holiness" is perfect or infallible, including the Dalai Lama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: open mike Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:43 AM The Bahai Faith concentrates on the things that the many faiths have in common, and believe they are all essentially united. Just pronounce the name of the great spirit differently. When you begin to concentrate on the differences, it can escalate into hatred, war and intolerance. It is like the 3 blind men describing an elephant, when we humans attempt to define the divine--we all have some of the picture, but none of us are capable of understanding the whole deal- it is too big for us to understand. Too bad we get caught up in arguing over the differnces instead of accepting the similarities. One Buddhist practice is to feel love for those who you understand and then try to express that same love for those more difficult -- those who are unknown , or who you do not understand, or those who might repel you such as ones having different beliefs, etc. I am glad it seemws to be a mis-quote becaus i cannot see the Dalai Lama wishing to douse any one or any thing... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: InOBU Date: 04 Feb 03 - 08:35 AM Leave it to our annonimous Guest, basking in her?is paranoia to throw rocks at the Dali Lama. Sheesh. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 03 - 08:52 AM Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil about the Dalai Lama, eh Larry? A bit Pollyanna-ish if you ask me. No one is perfect or infallible, and that includes the Dalai Lama. But his making appearances at the sides of leaders of this organization speaks volumes to people who know what is happening on the ground in India, Kashmir, and Tibet. Sorry if that rocks your world, but you can always go argue with Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International if you'd like. Or the South Asia Forum for Human Rights. The Dalai Lama has been under pressure from Indo-Tibetan nationalists for years, because of his failure to produce results on the Tibetan refugee and homeland repatriation using non-violent tactics. He himself has admitted failure in this regard, and that non-violent means have had, and will have, no effect on the dire situation the people he led out of Tibet are facing. Everything has it's limits, even pacifist and non-violent tactics. Remember, it was Gandhi who said non-violence only works as a political tactic if you face an honorable enemy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mooman Date: 04 Feb 03 - 09:34 AM Guest 8:52, It may not be a bad idea to read a selection of the hundreds of articles and speeches The Dalai Lama has made on this issue, something about the role and position The Dalai Lama plays in Tibetan Buddhism, something about the politics surrounding the continuing Chinese occupation of Tibet and the nature of the Dalai Lama's role and strategy in confronting and facing up to it and how those policies have been developed within the exiled Tibetan community. Also to try to better understand the nature, politics and problems of the Tibetan community in exile in India. Better still would be to spend some time working there as I have done and will probably do again this year. There is no alignment whatsoever between The Dalai Lama and fundamentalist Hindu factions and I am astonished that anyone should think it true. By the way, Mr Happy, you missed the end off that joke. The Dalai Lama then asks "What about the change?" to which the Pizza Hut assistant replies "I thought you Buddhists believed change comes from within!" We do. Tashi delek moo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:09 AM Mooman, I understand how disturbing the suggestion is to American Buddhists loyal to the Dalai Lama, that his actions in Ahmedabad were in January 2001 were wrong, and played right into the hands of fundamentalist Hindu nationalists. But people around the world need to know about the situation in India--especially Americans who innocently send money to support organizations like the India Development and Relief Fund, the World Hindu Council, and others of their ilk. They need to know the money is being used in ways they never dreamed of--to serve the cause of Hindu fundamentalists engaging in gross human rights violations in the state of Gujarat India, particularly. It is an extremely serious situation, one every bit as serious as the rise of Christian, Jewish, and Islamic fundamentalism in other parts of the world. My intention for posting to this thread was to educate people about the alarming rise of Hindu fundamentalism in the areas where the Dalai Lama lives and works in exile in India and Kashmir, and to give some much needed context for the articles which came out at the time that the Dalai Lama made his appearance and publicly came out in support of one of the most controversial aims of a notorious Hindu nationalist organization. There is a reason why the world media carried this story, the unfortunate aspect of them reporting it was that it wasn't given it's proper Indian contexts. You can deny all you want that the Dalai Lama has any links to fundamentalist Hindus, but there is no denying the fact of what he did, and what he said, when he chose to appear with World Hindu Council leaders for Kumbh Mela in 2001. People can also read about it at World Tibet Network News here: http://www.tibet.ca/wtnarchive/2001/1/26_2.html To deny the fundamentalist Hindu nationalist contexts of this condemnation in India is pure head in the sand denial of reality. Especially in the on the ground contexts in Gujurat regarding the World Hindu Council and the BJP. The alarming and disturbing results of the elections in Gujurat in December has human rights organizations around the world very concerned, and they have named the World Hindu Council as organizers and perpetrators of the anti-Muslim violence. Now, the Dalai Lama could have just gone to Ahmedabad to attend Kumbh Mela in January 2001, prayed for peace and harmony, and left. That is NOT what he chose to do, and there are people in the human rights field on the ground in South Asia who believe his reasons for taking such a visible public stand on Hindu conversions was for reasons of political exediency for his own cause of Tibetan nationalism. He needs the support of the Indian government in this region of India, and the government in that region is in the hands of fundamentalist Hindu nationalists, many of whom are prominent in the World Hindu Council. See also this article from In These Times: http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/27/04/feature2_supp.shtml From BBC News: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2452463.stm From The Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,861047,00.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:23 AM To see an interesting article on the lack of a human rights philosophy in the Buddhist and Hindu traditions from a Buddhist perspective, some might be interested in reading this: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma/humanrights.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: KingBrilliant Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:37 AM Is he the Dalai Zebra now then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mooman Date: 04 Feb 03 - 11:09 AM Dear Guest 10:09 The Dalai Lama has no links to fundamentalism Hindus, nor to fundamentalists of any other belief. The fact that he attended a meeting where some were present is the only common factor. I would not be surprised at all at the reports that that Dalai Lama spoke out against "conversion" based on "enticement" as Tibetan Buddhism is a non-evangelical belief system that does not seek to convert others to it. In the article you quote he is reported to have said "I always believe it's safer and better and reasonable to keep one's own tradition or belief". I take that as a pointer towards religious tolerance and free will, which is to be applauded. However, it was Ashok Singhal of the Hindu Council who talked about Hindus and Buddhists uniting to "douse" Islam. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Dalai Lama who just happened to be at the same meeting, just as he meets on a regular basis with religious leaders of all faiths around the world. Nor does it have anything whatsoever to do with Buddhist belief or philosophy in general. The fact that some extremist parties have seen it expedient to somehow try to draw the Dalai Lama into this is a matter for them. It does not reflect the Dalai Lama's stance on this nor any kind of approbation of fundamentalist actions of any kind by Buddhists. Tashi delek mooman (not an American but an uncommon by by no means unique beast...an Irish Buddhist!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 04 Feb 03 - 11:12 AM Significantly more than 'a little blood' has been shed over this... I wonder how far back the enmity goes... The Dalai Lama, it appears to me, is trying to 'cool down' zelots of approximatly similar denominations to his own... by name anyway... something has gone terribly wrong. War seems to be 'the answer' these days, to many questions... Too many questions indeed! I wish we all could sit right down And have a litte chat But not until you've lost that frown Your point of view is that The point I say is something else We may have never known It's time to drop the swords and stealth As one were not alone This world is vast, approaching full With not enough contented Remember never push or pull Bring peacefulness consented ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 03 - 11:40 AM Mooman, your being Irish doesn't matter. What I said in relation to American Buddhists beliefs about the infallibility of the Dalai Lama is also applicable to many Westerners, who hold the dangerously naive belief the Dalai Lama, with the tremendous international power he wields, can do no wrong. It is ridiculous to assume that the Dalai Lama, who strongly supports the current Hindu nationalist Indian government, exists in a political vacuum in India, especially in Karnataka. In order to protect his community of foreigners from the onslaught of BJP and World Hindu Council Hindu fundamentalists, the Dalai Lama has done what is politically expedient for him and his refugee community, who continues to live in India at the mercy of that unstable, and increasing anti-human rights government. He has refused to denounce them, and has joined their anti-converionist fervor to the cause of Tibetan nationalism. He also announced his very political position on India's rights to it's nukes program in 1998 or so. I realize the Dalai Lama has many detractors. The Chinese, the Pakistanis, at times the US and UK governments. I am not a supporter of any of those factions. What I am, is concerned that in his understandable efforts to maintain and protect the sanctuary provided him and his refugee community in India, he is getting much too cozy with Hindu fundamentalism. That is a legitimate political concern to have, particularly in light of the ascendancy of the fundamentalism among Hindu nationalist organizations he is supporting, even if it is "only" about the conversion issue. The conversion issue is one of the hot button issues for Hindu fundamentalists, and is hugely controversial in India. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mooman Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:01 PM Dear Guest 11:40, Then we will have to agree to differ... The Dalai Lama and the Tibetan exile communities certainly are in a difficult political position being as they are exiles in a country with an increasingly fundamentalist but nevertheless powerful minority faction. I have been in the Tibetan Settlements in Karnataka State and have spoken with many Tibetans about this. The Dalai Lama is not "cozy" with any form of fundamentalism nor does he support any form of religious fundamentalism. A quick read of his numerous books, speeches, essays and other works will quickly confirm this. Nor does he claim to be infallible. I do not know of a Buddhist, at least here, who would claim otherwise although naturally he is held in high esteem (and not just by Buddhists). He is, by his own admission, just a "simple monk" forced into being a political leader for exiled Tibetans by virtue of that exile and the atrocities visited upon Tibet by the Chinese. Tashi delek mooman |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Jeri Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:32 PM From the article posted above: "He joined leaders of the Hindu religion, who were celebrating the Kumbh Mela last week in condemning the Muslim and Christian practice... Then later, GUEST says: "...should be asking yourselves why the Dalai Lama gave his blessings to a 4,000-man paramilitary unit of local Buddhists and Tibetan commandos." Actually, what I'm asking myself is how joining with others in condemning a specific act turned into blessing a paramilitary unit. No, he ain't perfect but if the nastiest stuff you can say about him is something he never said and was never reported, he's doing pretty good. If you argue with an assumption someone makes, you give it credence. If someone wants to point out what I missed with a quote from the Lama or an article, I'll reconsider, but I don't think this alignment, unconditional support, exists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:39 PM Fundamentalist Hindu nationalists are not a minority in India. They currently are ruling India. The Prime Minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, is head of the BJP party! Mooman, I do believe you have an intimate view of the Tibetan refugee community living in Dhamasala with the Dalai Lama. With all due respect though, the perspectives you are hearing from those people would hardly be critical of the Dalai Lama or the Indian government, regardless of who is at the helm. The Tibetan refugee community in India is not free to speak out against the government, it is as simple as that. The Dalai Lama's writings on compassion and non-violence are in certain instances, in conflict with his actions. I'm not condemning him for those contradictions (to have them is human, no?), but I am pointing out those contradictions which seem to based on what many in the human rights community now believe he is doing to harm the nascent democratic traditions of secular India, and his now well documented tendency in regard to the rise of Hindu fundamentalism in India, in fact in Karnataka where he resides, to do what is politically expedient for him. Like I said, you seem well informed about the Tibetan community in Karnataka. However, it doesn't appear as though you have much of a grasp on the geopolitics of India and South Asia, in this regard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:49 PM Jeri, I was jumping around in the points I was making. In the first instance, I was speaking about the Dalai Lama's remarks on Christian and Muslim conversions, which is one issue. I brought up the Dalai Lama's support of Tibetan nationalist troops to make the point that while the Dalai Lama has, in his writings and most speeches, claimed to follow a non-violent path for himself, he has never condemned the Tibetan nationalist militias fighting in Kashmir for using violence. In other words, I failed to make the point that the Dalai Lama's words and actions are contradictory when it comes to issues of the uses of violence. I failed to make the connection in the case you cite above about the Tibetan nationalist militia in Kashmir, and in the point I made about his supporting India's right to it's nuclear weapons program. I believe the Dalai Lama is a man of peace and a statesman in the same way I believe Jimmy Carter is, but both of them do support the military uses of violence in limited circumstances. I realize this disturbs many Western Buddhists who believe in a strict doctrine of non-violence, who will often use the Dalai Lama as an example of how one can live according to that doctrine. But that doctrine is really more Western myth and hagiography than it is fact or historically accurate. There are many cases of extreme Buddhist violence, among them Sri Lanka, that Westerners conveniently overlook in their desire to embrace unthinkingly and uncritically, in a doctrine of non-violence. I am suggesting this is another case of Western denial about a very popular Eastern religious and political leader. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM It also wouldn't be unreasonable for people here to remain open minded about what they are reading here (and hopefully through links I've provided about the rise of Hindu fundamentalism, particularly the BJP party, which now rules many parts of India with an iron fist), and to use their best critical faculties, especially when looking at who is defending the Dalai Lama, and what their reasons for defending him might be--especially among his professed followers, like Mooman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Jeri Date: 04 Feb 03 - 01:11 PM OK, thanks. He hasn't condemned Tibetan nationalist militias, therefore he supports them. While I won't agree that his lack of denouncement definitely means he supports them, one might have expected him to have commented - especially in light of previous issues such as the one in the article mousethief posted two years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 03 - 01:26 PM Jeri, hi again. I don't mean to be making such absolutist connections as "he hasn't denounced them, therefore he supports them". In my readings about human rights in South Asia and India, the issues of Buddhist violence and Buddhist militarism, always comes up because of it's centrality in the Pakistan/Kashmir/India geopolitics, in the case of Sri Lanka, and in other less obvious cases, such as the conflicts between Tibetan Buddhist refugees living in northern India along the border with Tibet and Kashmir and native Indian Buddhists who are also a minority in that region. Or the Tibetan Buddhist refugees who keep flowing into Nepal. It is a very complicated geopolitical situation. However, the main point to remember is this does, to a certain extent, have it's roots in the partitioning of India/Pakistan, and the huge minority of Muslims "caught" in the partition on the India side, and in the contested region of Kashmir. Kashmir has been in the news too because of the Kargil battle, instigated by the Pakistani leader Musharref. Now, some might recognize his name as the current fundamentalist Muslim leader of Pakistan. The entire region is very unstable, especially because both countries now have nuclear weapons. So the Dalai Lama's naive statements in support of India's nuclear weapons program, at a time when India was condemned by the world community for developing those weapons (again, instability of the region), didn't exactly help. I am really no expert on any of this, and I don't claim to have an easy answers. But I do know this. The Dalai Lama has made some possibly well intentioned, but dangerously wrong-headed statements that have definitely had political ramifications in India and beyond. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: robomatic Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:41 PM As usual, there's a useful quote from the Simpsons: On the episode where Lisa chooses Buddhism: LISA: "You mean it's okay with you if I practise Buddhism but pay lip service to Christianity?" MARGE: "Honey, that's all we ever wanted!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mooman Date: 04 Feb 03 - 07:38 PM Dear Guest 12:39, A small correction...the Dalai Lama resides in Dharamsala in the North of India not in Karnataka state which is in Southern India and where the largest Tibetan exile settlements are located. I agree that a Hindu nationalist party is currently ruling India but my point was that India is not, and never has been, a particularly fundamentalist society. In most parts of India, in any small town you are likely to see a Hindu temple, a mosque, a Buddhist temple, a Catholic Church and a Protestant church and worship places of several other religions standing happily side by side. That is the general nature of Indian society. The quote by the Dalai Lama about India's nuclear weapons is often taken out of context. The Dalai Lama has always taken a stand against nuclear weapons and has, together with many other public figures including 38 Nobel Laureates, signed the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation's Appeal to end the nuclear threat to humanity. A fuller quote from the Dalai Lama's statement concerning the Indian nuclear tests is as follows: 'I think nuclear weapons are too dangerous. Therefore, we have to make every effort for the elimination of nuclear weapons. However, the assumption of the concept that few nations are OK to possess nuclear weapons and the rest of the world should not -- that's undemocratic... India should not be pressured by developed nations to get rid of its nuclear weapons.' The following is also part of the statement from his press office following the Indian tests which "greatly saddened him": "After all India is a large country with its own security perceptions." He hoped that a situation could be created "in that part of the world whereby countries such as India need not have to seek the nuclear option. While I have the utmost esteem and respect for the Dalai Lama, the term "professed follower" that you apply to me would seem to imply that I am unable to think for myself! On the contrary, I have spent my professional career working as a scientist and would consider that I have an open an enquiring mind. Clearly you have as well, as well as a keen interest in a serious problem of instability in Central and Southern Asia, but maybe we just do not interpret things in exactly the same way (which of course is natural!). Best regards, mooman |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 03 - 08:20 PM Mooman, I think the differences between the two of us are not great. I'm guessing, based upon what you've said here, that your primary interest regarding the Dalai Lama is the practice of Tibetan Buddhism. If you have gone to the substantial time and expense to travel to India from Ireland to visit the Dalai Lama, that seems like the description of a devoted follower to me. To be a devoted follower does not mean that one can't have an open mind. But I do feel that your obvious loyalty and devotion (both honorable and of great merit) to the Dalai Lama may still be able to cloud your judgment about him. My main concerns, on the other hand, are human rights and disarmament. Your position is the Dalai Lama's political statements are not cause for concern amongst human rights and disarmament organizations and activists. I disagree. I especially disagree in the strongest terms, with the Dalai Lama's statement (which you quite accurately quote above) on India's "right" to pursue a nuclear weapons program. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: mooman Date: 05 Feb 03 - 04:19 AM Dear Guest 8:20, I can clearly see you are quite sincere in your postings and agree that the differences we express here are not enormous and are, perhaps, mainly differences in perception and interpretation. Clearly our end goals and aspirations coincide! What does gladden me greatly is that we have been able to engage in a serious and important debate here with slightly differing opinions in an atmosphere of civility and respect. Unfortunately that cannot always be said of some of the political threads on Mudcat. Tashi delek ("auspicious greetings" in Tibetan!) mooman |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: stevetheORC Date: 05 Feb 03 - 05:51 AM Let every one pray to what god they like as long as they harm no one, try a bit of tolarence otherwise it's back to burning the Heritic again. I dont agree with any one shoving thair version of religion down any ones throat (unless it's an elf) So the Dali Llama made a observation is he not allowed to do that? the Pope makes plenty as do most other religous leaders, but how often do we get het up about that!!! As for his Guest ship im just supprised that he has not tied the Dali Llama in with GW!! ORC And i am a card carying pagan so Yah Boo Sucks to all you Elf luvers |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 03 - 05:56 AM You should learn more about the Dalai Lama, and what he teaches, before you put him down. You don't understand his point at all. And by the way, if "everyone stayed with the religion they were born with" there would also be no Christians. DT |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 03 - 07:32 AM Actually, I have read some books about Tibetan Buddhism (the Wisdom of Tibet series), and a few other books about other schools of Buddhism. I've also read translations of the Bhagavad Gita. Biographies of the Dalai Lama. My daughter saw him when he was here in the US a couple of years ago. I'm not "putting down" the Dalai Lama. He is both a religious leader and a political leader, and I have criticized him for his political positions, one having to do with the politics of religion in India, the other having to do with nuclear weapons. Are you saying, DT, that the Dalai Lama is above criticism and beyond reproach? You said "And by the way, if "everyone stayed with the religion they were born with" there would also be no Christians." There also wouldn't be any Western converts to Tibetan Buddhism. And I don't think the Dalai Lama would want to lose one of the major sources of his funding, so I'm sure he didn't mean what he said in quite the same way as you are interpreting his words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: Stu Date: 05 Feb 03 - 09:06 AM He spoke after the Hindu Council's general secretary, Ashok Singhal, had said, "Buddhism, Hinduism and other non-aggressive religions have to unite to douse Islam ... an aggressive religion." HH Dalai Lama was speaking after this comment was made. It seems to me he is suggesting that this is not such a constructive attitude to take. Taken in context, this makes the statement much less inflammatory and not quite as controversial as CNN would like to make out. In Tibetan Buddhist doctrine, it's considered bad form to try to convert people from their current religion - they have a right to be left alone and not vilifield because they're not Buddhists. HH Dalai Lama is an incarnation of an aspect of Chenrezig, the Bodhisattva of Infinite Compassion. His motivation for speaking out on issues such as nuclear weapons and the activities of some Buddhist groups is to stem the tide of suffering and help all people of all religions a peaceful life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dalai Lama shows his true stripes? From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 03 - 06:25 PM "HH Dalai Lama is an incarnation of an aspect of Chenrezig, the Bodhisattva of Infinite Compassion." Wouldn't that be a more accurate statement if you said "Many/most Tibetan Buddhists believe HH Dalai Lama is an incarnation..."? |