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Women's HearMe?
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Subject: Women's HearMe? From: GUEST,harpgirl Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:35 PM ...I have been meaning to suggest a women's HearMe. the men could listen but only women participate. I think it would be a good opportunity to work on our music together, to give honest feedback, and to revel in our creativity. What do you say gals? When shall we do it???? harpgirl |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Amergin Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:41 PM What a sexist idea.;) |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: GUEST,harpgirl Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:46 PM ...ah heck Amergin...I went to girl's school and I believe that when women get together to teach and to learn it is very good for them. Boys have always distracted me!!!!Besides, the men do dominate HearMe and every other damn thing they get involved in with us!!! |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: JenEllen Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:49 PM Lovely idea...when would you have it? I'm on the west coast, and the time differences never seem to work for me. ~Elle |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Jon Freeman Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:52 PM Harpy, could I suggest that if my hearme page is to be used for a slightly more exclusive than usual purpose, that the make a room option is used rather than the usual song circle room as that would allow others to play in an open song circle at the same time as your event if they wished to. To do this all that is required is to notify people of the chosen room name eg women and for those wishing to participate to click on the button where it says "make a room", change "Enter a room name" to the chosen name and click on the link below. I have said this before but this feature can be used by anyone to create a temporary private (or reasonably - nothing on the internet is guaranteed) room for what ever purpose is required. All that is needed is for the participants to agree on a room name. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: GUEST,harpgirl Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:53 PM maybe our resident brains can find a time which is most conducive to world-wide participation...how bout it kouhotek?? |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Áine Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:54 PM I think it's a grand idea, harpgirl! And the fellas could just sit and listen . . . it gets better the more I think about it . . . ;-) -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 01 Jul 00 - 06:21 PM What a fantastic idea!! Somebody message/ICQ/email me or whatever when ya figure out the details... I'll try to convince my woman to come along fer the ride... [~` |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Bill D Date: 01 Jul 00 - 06:30 PM funny, ladies,..but around here in RT, it is often the women that set the pace and lead the music...guess we are just lucky to have such a great bunch in one community!...but I'd be honored to just sit & listen if you get a time worked out...might even get my wife Ferrara to join you! (I do know what you mean though...there are a few personalities who seem to....ummmmmmm.....yeah...dominate is the best word I can think of..not sure it is always a 'male' thing, but...*sigh*) |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: The Shambles Date: 01 Jul 00 - 06:36 PM How about a gay only night or a whites only night?
Why would we want to exclude anyone? Is this not getting a little silly? |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Amergin Date: 01 Jul 00 - 06:45 PM Shambles, they just want to do this so they could feel bad about it later and post yet another public apology.... Amergin |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: The Shambles Date: 01 Jul 00 - 06:58 PM Well I am am sorry for 'shooting from the hip. I think I understand the reasons for the suggestion.
It seems however that the only way people can think of to encourage women's participation, is to exclude men? Is there not a better way? |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Áine Date: 01 Jul 00 - 07:02 PM Dear Roger, I don't think anybody here really wants to exclude anyone from a HearMe session -- I'm looking on it as one would an "all Blues" or "all Country" or "all Rock" night at a pub. If you'd like to sponsor an "all Men With Six Toes On One Foot Who Play Banjo Left-handed And Upside Down" HearMe session, go right ahead . . . in fact, I'd love to sit and listen to that. I don't think harpgirl's trying to do a "diva" thing here, I think she's just trying to provide a forum for us ladies to get to know each other. And personally, if you want to come on in on the session, I'd be pleased as punch -- Just think of the built-in crowd of groupies! (Ladies, please do not stone me *BG*). Lighten up, Roger. We're all friends here, and you know it. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Jon Freeman Date: 01 Jul 00 - 07:16 PM You had me worried for a minute Shambles as I thought you were suggesting that Harpgirl was being sexist and that her idea was on a par with the other prejudicies that you mentioned as opposed to being a sort of ladies gathering which is quite reasonable. My only concern is the use of a general room for a slightly more exclusive event when there other rooms available but it is up to everybody who uses Hearme to work out what is for the best in cases like this - the current Hearme page may be on my site but it takes everybody's involvement to make it into anything good. Having said that, your comments did make me think and although it would not happen amongst our company, I would shut my page down rather than allow it to be used to excercise the likes of racism, exclusion because of sexual orientation, etc. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Little Neophyte Date: 01 Jul 00 - 07:48 PM Harpgirl, I'm game if you want to organize something in another room on Hearme. Won't it be funny if one of the guys signs in under a women's monker and pretends he is one of the girls using a falsetto. That would be hilarious. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Llanfair Date: 01 Jul 00 - 07:54 PM I must be missing something here. Am I right in thinking that an exclusive Hearme is being considered acceptable? Is there a suggestion that this is a way to avoid the session being monopolised by one person? If there is a problem, girls, then say so, but I find all female groups of any kind uncomfortable, because I don't fit the mould properly, and separate groups are a way to divide and conquer. Include me out. Bron. |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: harpgirl Date: 01 Jul 00 - 07:59 PM ..Why do we have to make another room?Let's use the room we have and pick a time whereby the most women around the world can participate. Why do men immediately jump in and try to control, ridicule, tease, direct and otherwise comment? Be quiet you guys!!!! Sod off Roger, your response is irritating and provocative...I am talking to the ladies NOT the men! |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: The Shambles Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:07 PM When you read a post on the forum, you will not know the race, age or sex of the writer. You may get some indication of their sex, if you read their name. That to me is one of the strengths of the forum. You get to understand what they are saying, without a lot of the usual rubbish getting in the way.
I have been thinking of doing so but I not yet participated in any of the Hear Me things. But there, if you can hear the voice of a participant you would I imagine, be able to determine their sex or possibly their nationality, but none of the other things, unless they tell you.
It would appear to me, to be sad to make the only distinction you can determine between participants in to a unnecessary division. For if none of the other differences matter, for the purposes of communicating songs and music, why on earth should that one?
If the problem is one of individuals 'hogging' the show, their sex is surely of no more significance that any of the other differences. It is just the only the one that can be determined by voice. Bad behaviour can be dealt with and this is not confined to one sex surely?
I have never made music with a single sex grouping and I would see no possible advantage in forming such a group.
My experiences of hearing single sex bands consciously making music from a 'female point of view', have not changed that view. There have been great steps forward on this issue generally, let us not go backwards.
It may very well be that these sessions are male dominated but if the suggestion was made to have an exclusive male Hear Me session I suspect that there may be more than a few accusations of sexism? Can we just let the music bring us together? |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Jon Freeman Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:09 PM Harpgirl, I made what I consider to be a reasonable suggestion. At no point have I or anybody else tried to dictate terms. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: harpgirl Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:10 PM But why do you have to get involved at all, Jon? |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Little Neophyte Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:14 PM Harpgirl I would like to respect Jon's request which he mentioned in an earlier posting about the current hearme page on his site. If what we are doing is kind of exclusive then why not meet in another available room rather than in the usual song circle room. That way this doesn't exclude anyone from having a song circle at the same time as a women's song circle event was happening. Makes sense to me. Bonnie
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Mbo Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:16 PM Yes, non-involvement is so enriching! I'll be playing to my walls tonight, who doen't give a rat's ass about what I play or how much I play. I been doing it for years, so why change? |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Jon Freeman Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:18 PM I got involved to make people aware that there were other rooms available and in some vain and apparently misguided attempt to stop and arguements over the usage of the rooms for an event that has rules of participation set in such a way that it says "hang on, you can't play now" before they stated. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: JenEllen Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:19 PM Harpgirl: I'm a bit confused. This isn't meant to be exclusionary is it? When the HearMe's first started, they had topics, and general ideas for songs to start with, and the sessions evolved from there. You know, CowboySongs, PlantSongs, etc...when everyone was tapped out, it was anyone's shot. If the Woman's HearMe is approached as another topic to conquer, count me in. It'd be great to hear the range of styles and voices the 'Cat contains, but an exclusionary HearMe would need to be conducted in another room. If you don't want someone there, the nicest thing to do is not tell them you're having a party in the first place. What say we set a date/time for a gal-bash? Guys invited to listen first, then when/if the well runs dry, release the hounds? Try it first just as a topic of song, and see where it goes from there? How's about it? ~Elle |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Áine Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:26 PM I'm with JenEllen. 1. Let's start by setting a date/time for the Lady Mudcats session. 2. All interested persons should let harpgirl know they'll be available. 3. The name of the special HearMe room will be assigned by harpgirl and sent to the participants by Personal Message and/or email. 4. We all get together and have a damn good time -- regardless of our "bits and pieces". -- Áine (P.S. Dear Lodger - here's a kiss and smole for you, darlin') |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Sailor Dan Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:32 PM Harpgirl, In my humble opinion you and the mudcat gals have the right to have your own night on the town. It seems to me by the postings that Shambles appears to be a controlling,insecure narrow minded sexist male. I personally would like to hear the women of mudcat, and have them work on their music and get together. And if you exclude me from the room, so be it, its your right. Being a pretty open minded male who enjoys being around independent females I can personally handle your deviation of the hear me room. Although I do enjoy all of the individuals that are there male and female. Now I know that some people reading this will be pissed off, but I have my beliefs and am Man enough to handle it. I hope the rest of the male mudcat population can. Sailor Dan |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: katlaughing Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:36 PM Bron, I am glad I am not the only one who read it that way. After Harpgirl's complaining in the threads, recently about Mbo supposedly "hogging" the mic, I was a little put off when I read this one. Also, it could have been intended for me and a couple of others who are not shy about speaking up and trying to keep things rolling. As has been said before....if no one volunteers to sing, someone else is welcome to jump right in...all you have to do is speak up. The only reason we have all had HearMe to enjoy and share in so much, is through the kindness and great amounts of patience of Jon *the Saint of Wales*:-). I totally agree with him that if we are going to exclude by gender, it be done in a separate room, much as Jenellen mentioned. Harpgirl, I think you owe Jon an apology. I have not found the men in HearMe to been anything but polite, supportive, and thoroughly enjoyable. I very much enjoy hearing everyone who has come into HearMe and look forward to many mroe joining in. If there is one Mudcatter in particular who has pissed you off so much recently, why don't you take it up with them privately? Girls' Night Out could be a fun thing, but not if it is done in a rancourous fashion... kat |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:41 PM I suppose an occasional separate sing-in based on age might make some kind of sense sometimes - definitely so far as children are concerned. Maybe some other age groups.
I don't know if that helps work out something about why some kinds of separate groups seem fine, and some don't. I think it's to do with helping people who get drowned out otherwise to find a voice. Not that there's anything subdued or quiet about most of the women I know. But I can imagine that the ones that are subdued and quiet might get more support and help in a woman's group than in a mixed group. And that probably wouldn't be true of most men only groups.
And I have come across some very confident and powerful women singers who have said that until they went to a women's only workshop they had never felt able to sing in public.
Not that all this is too relevant to a Hear Me. I'd imagine. But this thread seems to be turning towards wider issues, as they do. |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Amergin Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:50 PM I just kinda wonder how everyone would take it if some one suddenly posted an invite for a Men's Only Hearme session. I think that person would be vilified. Amergin |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Jon Freeman Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:01 PM Amerigin, if a men's only hearme or maybe some attemt at an instrument workshop was sugessted, I would have taken exactly the same line as I have done now. My point is that we do have the resources to host extra events for special purposes while keeping the main room open for all. As I said before, I am not dictating terms and it is up to everybody to work out how to make the best of this facility if they wish to use it but I can not help but feel that the courteous thing would be to use a freely available and easily set up room for such purposes. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Helen Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:08 PM Hi all, As an appetiser, see this wonderful thread called Women's Song Circle, started by the even more wonderful Shula. I'm not sure if it went into a Part 2 thread because it got exceedingly long. We were enjoying ourselves too much. And so were the men, sitting on the porch listening. What a grand bash that one was, a truly marathon event! It did a lot to contribute to the Mudcat community, men, women, young, old, you name it. It was a virtual folk mini-festival for me, and it was really not long after I joined Mudcat so it helped to cement my sense of self as part of the Mudcat community. http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2801#12285 Helen |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: IvanB Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:10 PM Frankly, there've been a few evenings when it seemed it WAS a men-only Hearme, but certainly not by design. Actually, it seems to me the original post didn't exclude men from attending - just from performing. Jon suggested a different room and I think following that suggestion might help to allay any possible criticism of exclusivity. One further suggestion I'd make is that, rather than notifying potential participants by email or PM, that a thread be created with the link to Hearme, the name of the room to enter and groundrules for the event. I would hope that men would be allowed to participate in the text chat portion of the session however. |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Áine Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:21 PM Thank you, IvanB, for the addendum to the proposed event! I would love to have the Gentlemen Mudcats there to offer their encouragement (and, hopefully, praise) to the festivities. Seeing's how we have a large contingent of this quality of male persona in the Mudcat, I don't see how their presence (albeit as polite observers) could do anything but add to the fun. OK -- here's my offer for the date/time on the table -- Sunday next (July 9th), at 5:00 p.m. Mudcat Time (otherwise known as Eastern Standard Time U.S.). How's that sound to everyone? Suggested Groundrules: 1. Everyone is welcome, regardless of their "bits and pieces". 2. The Gentlemen Mudcats would let the Lady Mudcats take the lead in performing; only performing themselves if invited to do so, or when the session is proclaimed "open to all" by the Session Leader. 3. Suggestions for No. 3??? -- Áine -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: MAG (inactive) Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:27 PM McGrath's comment that a women-only event can be a necessary, empowering event is a good one. That was the point back in the late 60's, early 70's when we had a plethora of such events. It was a necessary act for us to get it together, and brothers who were on our side understood. Jon's suggestion of a separate room is excellent if empowering one another is the point. A feature women-only would be good if the point is to feature what we women do. I'm personally neutral, since my technology doesn't permit me to participate. |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Helen Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:37 PM Áine Good sugggestions. My 2-cents worth: I don't know how the timing will affect others but 5pm Mudcat time probably translates as around 7am here. Is there any chance of making it a couple of hours later? Also, I really think we should take Jon's excellent suggestion and set up another room in the HearMe. It probably doesn't have to be labelled "Women's HearMe". In line with most folk festivals I've been to it would probably work to label it Music Workshop HearMe and then other specific interest sessions - singing, music, sea chanteys, specific instruments, etc could "book" the "room" for use at specified times. For example, a harp, autoharp, dulcimer workshop would be fantastic for me. Helen |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: harpgirl Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:38 PM ...fageddabout it! Katie, like Shambles, you are taking a simple suggestion into a realm I think is inappropriate. Moreoever, you are attributing motives to me which are just plain incorrect. I resent it and it infuriates me as much of your continual domination of the forum has irritated me since you arrived. It also appears as though you are aligning yourself against me as you often do as a means of wielding power. I haven't said anything which requires an apology to Jon and I am not interested in being told by you what I should do. Who do you think you are, my mother??? And your constant fawning is nauseating!!!!Unlike you, I am not interested in power, merely in sharing with other women without the men for a change. As for going to a different room; that is rubbish and a simple attempt to control, on the part of those who have suggested it. The occam's razor is to use the song circle room sometime when it isn't being used, which is most of the time except for Sunday nights. I have lost interest in this idea and am abandoning it! harpgirl |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Helen Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:44 PM harpgirl, please read the thread I posted called Women's Song Circle. Not only will you see that your idea is a good one, I can guarantee that withing 10 minutes you'll be feeling a whole lot better. If I could get over there and give you a huge (Mama) bear-hug I would, but I can't, not within the next 24 hours anyway - so just shut your eyes and feel it in cyber-space. Luv-ya Helen |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: harpgirl Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:47 PM ...thanks Helen. I will reread the thread. I thought it was very cool when I first discovered it. But as far as I am concerned the power brokers can take my idea and do what they want with it! Thanks to the men and women who support this idea, by the way, including you Helen. I accept that hug! |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Mbo Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:53 PM Not completely so, harp. HearMe is pretty much in use every night of the week except Saturday. I say go for it, maybe you'll light the fire under some ladies' britches to come and sing on HearMe. It seems to me like a lot of people are missing out on it because they think it's too much trouble, or they can't be bothered. Get 'em moving and maybe something will happen. --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Ebbie Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:58 PM Ah. An agenda is a wondrous thing. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: IvanB Date: 01 Jul 00 - 10:43 PM I'm aware that, at some point, there was some unpleasantness on the Mudcat Forum, and that many who were here at the time feel they have a right to be angry. I've also noticed a trend here lately to rebuke individuals in public thread posts. I realize it's easier when posting to a thread to include a message for a given individual along the lines of 'you should....' But I also know that I always felt bad when I was publicly rebuked and I also resented the person rebuking me. Folks, we've got a wonderful community here, with many resources, one of which is Personal Messages. May I suggest that, if we feel the need to rebuke, express anger, whatever to another individual member, we make use of the PM? Seems to me it would certainly make the overall tone of Mudcat a bit more pleasant. |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Jon Freeman Date: 01 Jul 00 - 10:56 PM Hapgirl, the fact of the matter is that for the past 2/3 months, there has rarely been a night where people have not gathered together in that room. A simple search for Hearme will prove this and give you some indication as to how often it is used and believe me, not all the hearme events ae documented there. While I would agree that you had made no comment that warranted an apology to me, I must point out to you that I do resent your last comments and would suggest that you are in fact the one who is trying to be the contol freak. I had merely SUGGESTED what I considered to be a more appropriate location for this particular event whereas, you seem to be determined to dictate locations and completely diseregard that fact that other women who wish to participate think this suggestion reasonable. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Áine Date: 01 Jul 00 - 11:02 PM Just as an experiment, I've created a temporary room on HearMe entitled 'ladycats'. I'm just trying to see if Jon's idea works. If you're interested in helping me run this experiment, please click on this link to go to Jon's HearMe page. Then, click on "Make A Room" and enter the name ladycats. Then click on the "Enter" link. If I did everything correctly, that should bring you into my temporary room. I'll be there for about 10 minutes. Thanks! -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Jeri Date: 01 Jul 00 - 11:12 PM Harpgirl, whatever your intention was with that post, Kat was extremely reasonable and you appear to be furious out of all proportion to anything that's been said. As far as the "women only" session, I don't want to be in a place where anyone is told "don't sing." |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Áine Date: 01 Jul 00 - 11:33 PM Well, the experimental room kinda worked. We got three folks in there, although I couldn't talk or hear some of the time -- but, I think that was just Netscape being finicky. Usually, I have no problem. So, the temporary room works fine. As far as the date/time goes, how's about this. Sunday, July 9th, 7:00 p.m. (Mudcat time). I'll post a separate 'invitation' thread (open to Every Mudcatter), but the emphasis will be on the ladies to sing/play. If anyone has other suggestions for time/date, please let us all know. Personally, I'm excited about getting to know everyone better and hearing what the female contingent of the 'Cat has up their sleeves. Looking forward to next Sunday, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Jon Freeman Date: 01 Jul 00 - 11:44 PM Aine, all my page provides is a means to connecting to the hearme servers and there should be no difference in performance between the rooms. The song circle room is an unnamed room which means it is private to those who access that web page rather than a name which has a domain wide scope but that is the only difference. As far as I understand it, all hearme rooms are really temporary as they are created on demand by the system thier end and disposed of when the last user exits. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Bill D Date: 01 Jul 00 - 11:54 PM and, if I understand it correctly, anyone can attach a HearMe room to ANY page they control...and there are LOTS of free Web pages like Jon has....no one needs to depend on what Jon has done!...get a room, attach the software, issue invitations! |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Jon Freeman Date: 02 Jul 00 - 12:06 AM Quite right Bill, it can be hosted by anybody who has web space and the html that needs to be added is very simple. I could provide the html but it is probably better to go through Hearme.Com to ensure the latest of everything. All you do is fill in some details and they will email you back with the neccesary code and a link to the reference that explains its operation and the customisation options available. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Bugsy Date: 02 Jul 00 - 12:17 AM Aine, I followed your directions to the Women's Hearme, but when I got there I was the only one present. So I sang a song, just for the devilment of it. Cheers Bugsy |
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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe? From: Jon Freeman Date: 02 Jul 00 - 12:25 AM From Jon Freeman: I've changed my mind a little. For anybody that may want it, Quite frankly, I a never wanted the thing in the first place, anymore than I wanted the ICQ Active list that I also set up to solve problems and handed over to Max at the first opportunity and the last time Max expressed an interest in Hearme, I wanted to hand over. So fuck it, I don't need it, let someone else "control" it. I am through and my page is now closed. Jon |
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