I'm Sick of the Bigotry

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:42 PM

Spaw, I do recall a book some time back called "Six Degrees of Separation" which put forth this theory.

I would really be bad at this game. I've watched very few Kevin Bacon movies and am not particularly fond of the ones I have seen.

Just a stick in the mud, I reckon. Thanks for the explanation!

Lin

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:42 PM

Bigotry is founded in fear. In the words of Herbert Hoover of F.D.R., whoever is was, "All we have to fear is fear its self." Get over it. Talk with someone you might fear because of differences in race, origin or religious beliefs... today. Within all the major religions there is a common denominator of "caring" for others and for self. Armed with this, bigotry is just a lazy and/or scared man's excuse for not going up to to someone not like him and say, "Hey".

There is a resturant in my town that is owned by Pakistanis and since Sept 11 folks don't go there anymore. I do and I have gotten to know the folks there better than ever. The manager's father, who is still in Pakistan, is into gardening and as a gardener myself I have found a means to get beyond the programed bigotry that the media has attempted to force upon us. And I am that much richer.

Bobert

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 11:05 PM

I have never ever heard of Kevin Bacon........

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 11:13 PM

No way, DougR! I'm only on about five or six of the currently running threads. She must be talking about you!

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: bflat
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:19 AM

Me too!

Ellen

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Sick of Jeri
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:29 AM

You're right, DougR--Jerry Rassmussen, read her post and think about what you are defending--what ever nice qualities she may have, she has posted much more of this sort of thing, and by any measure, it is unacceptable--her language is enough to get here banned from many ISPs, and in a number of states, the language, coupled with the tone, is enough to qualify as "harrassment"--is it OK, because she is your friend?

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: DougR
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:46 AM

Perhaps you're right, Carol. Could be.

DougR

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:52 AM

Well, I can't speak for you, DougR. I don't really know how many you're in. But I went over the threads that I'm currently in, and although I counted about 8, only three of them are contentious. But since I'm in those three a lot maybe it looks to you like I'm in a lot of threads. And here we are, hijacking this one! (btw. My last post was supposed to have a smiley face at the end.)

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:57 AM

And what is so terrible about discussing subjects, like politics and religion, on which people frequently disagree? I will discuss any subject that interests me, and I expect to be disagreed with frequently, but I don't intend to hate, fear, or demonize those who do disagree with me. If I talk to them long enough, it becomes clear that they hold most of the same ideals I do, regardless of the fact that they may disagree with me vehemently about some political issue or another...and our disagreement arises out of our different backgrounds, not out of the fact that one of us is "bad" and the other is "good". This helps me learn not to judge others hastily (if at all), but instead get to know them better.

I think the habit of scrupulously avoiding controversial subjects is one based on laziness, inflexibility and FEAR, the same things bigotry is based on (right on, Bobert!). Just because someone disagrees with you does not ipso facto make him your ENEMY. It could on the contrary make him quite interesting, and enlarge your view of reality a bit. You want a place where everyone agrees? Well then, establish a police state, and just imprison or kill everyone who doesn't agree with your official version of reality. It's been done, folks...all in the name of "order".

As for the oft repeated cry that this is a folk and blues site...well, yes, it is.

I don't know about blues, but folk music has NEVER been afraid of taking on controversial subjects, and has generally been at the forefront of doing so.

If you are so disturbed by threads about politics or religion...then don't read them, for gosh sakes! Read some other thread instead. God knows, there isn't enough time in the day to read all the threads on this forum, is there?

I will add to that, however, that Jeri and Amos both have an excellent point in saying that our energy is better spent on discussing things we love than things we hate. No doubt about that. I think politics comes up because most of us love freedom, peace, and justice...and religion comes up because many of us love God or love Life itself and see it as a spiritual journey.

Plus, we love to talk... :-) That should be obvious by now.

Everything comes back to love. Love expressed or love denied, but it all begins with Love. When a child is born, that's plainly obvious. You can see it in the eyes of the parents. We all strive in the defense of what we love, and that's natural.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:19 AM

Sorry, Gargoyle. Message deleted.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Pseudolus
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:26 AM

I agree with you Little Hawk, we shouldn't be afraid to discuss subjects that are controversial. However, I think the anger here (at least for me) are the threads and comments that are intended solely to get under the skin of the folks around here. Using bigotry and hatred, trolls are more often than not successful in getting many of us (I've been guilty as well!) to respond and get into an argument. They don't really have an opinion on the subject, they just want to get things stirred up.

I am more than happy to agree to disagree on subjects that you and I disagree on (this one included), I just think that many of the issues we're discussing in this thread have to do with trolls who don't care nearly as much about the opinions they are stating, as they do about prodding people into reacting to their extreme statements.

Just a thought,
Frank

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:35 AM

My son probably has some Jewish ancestry. He's a Mudcatter. One of his paternal great grandfathers was from Alsace Loraine and his name was an anglicized form of a Jewish name, with the first name of Ira.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:42 AM

My daughters and I have always enjoyed Kevin Bacon, esp. in Footloose, Flatliners, and Diner.

Near as I can tell this is just another of those interminable "rehash" threads which seem to be taking over the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:36 AM

Right on, katlaughing!

My point exactly about religion and politics threads. They go on and on and on and any "discussion" very soon gets lost, because each person who posts (just as in this thread) has their own firmly held opinion and is very unlikely to alter it in any way because of anything someone else might have to say.

Little Hawk, I don't mind a good debate, or a good argument. Most of these (including this one) are pointless; why waste the energy?

This is my last comment on this or any thread like it. And BTW, I DON'T read many of the religion threads, and I refuse to read ANY of the political threads. I find I'd much rather go read a good book or practice my concertina than participate in a Philosophy and Religion 101 project, thanks. Did enough of that in college, and didn't much care about or for it then.

Lin

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:47 AM

Well, Lin, I used to be guilty as charged when it came to those types of threads, even started a few of them myself, but you are right, they became a lesson in futility and left nothing to offer.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:47 AM

Wow. Now my last post doesn't make any sense at all with Gargoyle's post having been deleted. Oh well. I guess the reason I posted it will just have to be one of life's little mysteries.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:55 AM

I'm afraid it has gone beyond "heated discussion" and politics a number of times recently, and there has been some really hateful anti-semitism. As I said, the other stuff is rather mild - but taken as a whole picture, it looks like bigotry to me.

But the anti-semitism is downright ugly, and I ask you all to do your best to put a stop to it by answering it with a profound and unified silence. Do not acknowledge such bigotry publicly - send a personal message to me AND Pene Azul, and we will deal with it. Sometimes, we may delete offensive remarks, and sometimes not. If there are bigoted messages or threads about other ethnic or religious groups, let us know.

It's one thing to disagree with what Sharon is doing in Israel - but it's another thing when you start spouting off about putative Jewish conspiracies to control the media, etc.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 02 - 04:19 AM

Couldn't agree with you more, Joe. I hope you didn't think I was complaining about Gargoyle's post having been deleted. I just didn't want my post hanging there with no context, so I gave it what little bit of context I could.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 May 02 - 05:32 AM

Joe, I'm not really seeing tons of authentic anti-Judaism here. It's pretty obvious that most of it is just trolls trying taint the opposition by associating thair criticism of Israel with anti-Judaism. Same with most of the anti-Islamic comments from the trolls on the "other" side. These comments by anonymous trolls don't bother me. The ones that bother me come from members, and other than some of RO1SIN's more unsavoury comments, I don't think you'll find any anti-Judaic posts by members. (Although you could find dozens of anti-Islamic, anti-Arab, etc. comments by members) And since most people already ignore these trolls, I guess I don't see what the big deal is.

---Lepus Rex (wondering what the Hell gargoyle said...)

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 02 - 06:13 AM

There are pubs where in an attempt to avoid disputes that get out of hand they have a rule that nothing in any way controversial is discussed. That means no politics. No religion. No sport...

If you're minded to have an argument you can have an argument about anything. And if you're so inclined you can get under peoples skin and with any luck they'll turn nasty, and the whole argument can turn nasty. And someone will suggest that its best to avoid that subject. And the list gets longer...

It isn't the topics that cause the damage, it's the attitude of mind that sets out to twist the arguments and discussions into quarrels.

In face to face discussion it can be very difficult to avoid that kind of shift from exchanging opinions and facts into just offending each other. That's what is special about this kind of medium we have here - we can hold back and look at what we are writing and change it so that it doesn't just involve striking back. The other side to that is that it is possible for those among us and around us who have other motives to lay out the poison so that it will be picked up.

If we back off from whole tracts of territory because of possible disagreement, what will be left for us? After all, we can quarrel about issues that are strictly to do with song and music after all. Whatever a song is about, there's the potential in it that could lead to disagreement. And any disagreement can lead us into a song, not necessarily in the same thread, but soon enough.

The real problem with the sectarian bigotry that sometimes shows up doesn't live in its offensiveness in itself - it's easy enough to scroll past it. The danger is that the tone of it can be catching, and it can have the effect of tripping us into trying to hurt each other rather than just explore our differences. For example a sectarian or racist post can lead on to an exchange in which someone else gets unjustly accused of being sectarian or racist, and that is taken as fighting talk, and a fight starts.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 07:46 AM

The group suffering from the worst bigotry here are the guests. Automatic hatred, fear, paranoia, results in constant negative behavior towards people posting as guests, including harrassment, villification, and of course, the perennial favorite of Mudcatters, swearing a blue streak and using the worst language possible, directed at the guests, deserving or not.

Even more appalling, Mudcatters feel entirely justified in showing the absolute worst of themselves and humanity, without a second thought of fear of embarrassment, of being sanctioned or ostracized by the group--there is absolutely no limits to the outrageously bad behavior rewarded here for bashing guests. Who are, after all, human beings too. What we do isn't even as bad as bombing people, taking people hostage, sexually abusing them--nothing of that ilk.

Bigotry is really all about hating strangers--the people who aren't "us" whomever us may be in a given group of humans gathering anywhere on the planet.

Want to know how bad bigotry really is at Mudcat? Look at how all of you post to guests who make you angry or dare say something you disagree with. Jeri is right. Guests aren't the only negative force to be contended with here in Mudcat. The negativity has been feeding on itself for quite some time now, has gotten even worse since 9/11, and doesn't show any sign of ending soon.

I guess this is one of those "you get back what you give out to others" cases. The more people are allowed to continue harrassing others, especially guests, you are going to attract the negative sorts of people who naturally gravitate to that kind of thing as your membership. Like attracts like, as they say.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Pseudolus
Date: 01 May 02 - 08:06 AM

Well Guest, your points are well taken but I think what you see isn't a willingness to bash Guests as much as you see a short fuse because of a lot of the garbage that has gone on around here. Many sites don't allow you to participate until you have "signed-up" and I would vote for that rule but unfortunately, rules "are made to be broken" in some people's eyes and that too would most likely have loopholes somewhere.

Frank

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 01 May 02 - 08:12 AM

Unfortunately society seems to have arrived at a point where it is all right to be anti-some groups, Jews, Catholics, men, wasps all seem to be acceptable targets. I just wish we could see each other as people not as members of anything but the human race. But it is hard not to respond to some of this junk. Good advice Joe, but not always easy. Thanks for the good thoughts.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 08:38 AM

Frank,

The reality is there can be no justification for tolerating the negative behavior towards guests, any more than there can be justification for tolerating guests' negative behavior towards others.

Regardless of what has happened in the past, there is simply no justification for tolerating bad behavior here, yet it is done all the time. It is a slippery slope. Once you tolerate members flaming and harrassing guests, you tolerate a lot of negative, bigoted, racist, sexist sorts of behavior in your midst. You ignore it because your friends are doing it. People you admire are doing it. Everyone who means anything to you is doing it, so you do it too, or remain silent about it.

That is how hate happens, and the rhetoric of hate against guests in Mudcat is intolerable. That rhetoric of hate against ANYONE wouldn't be tolerated on any decent moderated forum, to be sure.

So, if people feel justified in their rhetoric of hate against guests, it is easy to justify the rhetoric of hate against Catholics, Jews, Arabs, or Dave Bulmer for that matter.

If you look objectively at the language used about any of the above, you'll see what I mean. I just read the entire 3 part thread on Celic Music/Dave Bulmer. Some people were actually suggesting someone do bodily harm to Bulmer. Others defended it. Most remained silent about it, or attacked the guest(s) who objected to it.

If you tolerate that sort of hatred in your midst, it definitely poisons you as individuals, and as a group.

It is really easy to hate us guests, isn't it? Easy to justify painting every one of us with the same broad brush. It is easy to hate Dave Bulmer--after all, look at all the terrible things he has done. So why not have a few of the lads pay him a visit when he is on his way home from his local one night? And the Palestinians--well, they bloody well deserve what they are getting right now from the Israelis--after all, look at what those suicide bombers did.

Its a slippery slope, accepting and justifying the hate and violence in our midst. Much easier than confronting it and trying to stop it.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:25 AM

GUESTS are not a group. A GUEST is someone who is posting but who is not signed in as a member, for a variety of reasons, mostly quite good reasons. There has never been any animus shown to people for doing that as such.

A few individuals when coming in as GUESTs have some hang up about even identifying themselves with a temporary name or number, which would make it more convenient for other people to respond to what they are saying. This is seen by many people as intentional discourtesy, when it is done intentionally. It may well be that sometimes the people who do this are in fact members, but that doesn't make any difference either way.

While there may be some people who do this for some mysterious reason, but without having any hostile intention, there have been many cases where it is clearly done with the intention of sowing discord. This explains why there is a fair amount of antagonism shown to the practice.

Suggesting that people who post without any kind of tag are "a group" subject to unfair discrimination makes as much sense as saying that people who drop litter are a group.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Sick of Jeri
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:39 AM

It isn't about GUESTs, it is about the double standard--long time, high profile members can flame, say offensive things, and even let off with bigotted or racist comments, without getting any negative comment from other long time, high profile members--GUESTS, on the other hand, get attacked for simply stating views or presenting facts that are contrary to the prevailing opinions--

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,1948
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:56 AM

The bigotry that Joe Offer finally found offensive this week is nothing new at Mudcat. Remember the "Jewish jokes" thread. When someone complained that the so-called joke about Jews hanging their toilet paper out to dry was anti-Semitic, they were jumped on as having no sense of humor. Bigotry has existed in this forum for quite some time and is a by-product of the way Joe and Max choose to run Mudcat.

One of the consequences of such an "open" forum is that some of the folk music experts who used to be around Mudcat are no longer here. Or, they come by with much less regularity.

The bigotry here has caused several folk music websites to remove their links to Mudcat.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:58 AM

I would suggest that those Mudcat members who have the most difficulty accepting guests DO see all guests in the same way that anti-Semites see Jews. However, I am in no way equating the result of guest bashing with the result of Jew baiting/bashing.

It is the same mental process--the processing of irrational hate of someone/something strange, different, something "not us" however you want to describe it.

I believe the problem of bigotry and racism rearing their ugly heads in Mudcat with regularity is a direct result of the double standard for behavior, where one group (members) are allowed to spew the most hateful language at another group (guests) with impunity. Has anyone ever seen Joe Offer or Max come into a thread and tell members to stop harrassing and villifying innocent guests? No, you haven't.

As long as this double standard for behavior (ie one for members, one for guests) is promulgated by Max and the Mudcat leadership, it is dangerously naive to think that people won't carry that double standard into their hateful behavior and remarks about other groups of people too.

We have a classic case of "We didn't say anything when they went after the guests...and now they are coming after the Catholics, the Jews, the Muslims, etc"

Don't want a discussion forum filled with hate speech? Easy--do something to stop it among your Mudcat friends, among those Mudcat contributors you admire, and pressure the Mudcat leadership to put an end to it once and for all, by any means necessary. Which I think must include member only log-in. The problem of hate speech here is simply to pervasive and entrenched to deal with it any other way than by limiting the log-in and moderating the forum. It is too far gone to stop it any other way, IMO.

The inability of some of the most respected Mudcat members to control themselves on a daily basis regarding negative comments about guests, or harrassment of guests who choose not to provide an identity in the from line, is proof of what I'm saying. And that isn't even counting the serious attacks by large groups of members against guests who post a controversial or unpopular opinion.

Like I said, take the time to read the Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer threads, and you will see what I mean. Some very, very hateful stuff directed against guests for speaking their obviously unpopular opinion. Tyke and a few other members who tended to agree with the anon. guests were never attacked. Just the anon. guests.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:04 AM

And I note the worst offenders here are now happily floating down the River Denial over in the "Let's Talk Positive..." thread.

As if.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Desdemona at work
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:22 AM

I sincerely apologise if I've ever given anyone offense with what I admit is often my very irreverent sense of humour; I can typically find something to laugh at in almost any situation, religion not excepted.

Again, mea culpa for any unintended offense given.

D.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:42 AM

Look folks, it is not a tough equation. There are those whose purpose, it seems, it to attack the Mudcat and especially long term Mudcatters. They use typical demogogue tactics in that they pull out examples of where "inner circle" folks blew up, or got themselves into a bad spot. That isn't very hard to do, because we are all plain folks and make mistakes.

GUEST, your "logic" just doesn't stand the test. It isn't hard to find "rants" by any of us, especially those who have a long posting history. We are humans, and we have a long identifiable record of postings. On the other hand you do not. And that is what speaks to your motives. You, and the couple of allies you have, seek to justify your own existence and self worth by showing the rest of us how bad we are. In your poor, tormented mind you can only look good by making the rest of us look bad. Somewhere along the way you didn't get the validation out of this place that you thought you should, so you attack others that you see as getting that validation to feel better. But if you would open up your feeble little mind and check through the threads, you would find two things. One, the folks getting the validation are getting it because their views stand the test of scrutiny by a world wide audience. In the arena of ideas, they have passed. You resent that. Two, most of these folks, if you really cared about truth, have been attacked or cajoled for some of their views, when they went over the top. And we all have. But you really don't care about fairness, only in justifying your pitiful point of view.

What really bugs you is that you aren't a part of the community, yet you are so unsure of yourself that you hide and can't be part of the community. Get some help.

Joe, I don't like the bigotry either. I am a Catholic, and a part of the loyal opposition. I believe that all that is happening now will lead us to a better Catholic Community and make the Church more reflective of its body.

Jeri, I love you and don't you change a thing.

Mick

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: InOBU
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:53 AM

Hi Joe:
I know the world gets you down... there is a lot of really rotten things happening, and sometimes they all seem to happen in the same day. But, let me share a thought sent to me by a friend of Yvette Michelle (the Yvette from my song, Yvette's Song). She and her family are nomatic hunter gatherers in far northern Quebec and Labrador. They were hunting far up into northern Labrador last September and didn't hear about the 11th untill they were returning to their village a month later. She wrote me a wonderful letter about the process of finding out about the terrible events, full of love and even humor. Then she closed with the Innu observation that the hardship and loss we face teaches us to fly.
When hateful comments are made here, it always, always leads to a resounding responce on the part of the huge majority of good folks and folkies here. The hardship of thier hate teaches us to fly.
Remember joy is a gift within untouchable by the external pain and we fly.
holding you in the light
Larry

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:23 AM

Big Mick,

There is no excusing the bigotry in Mudcat. Not even you waxing poetic about the humanity of the bigots here. Or ascribing imaginary motives and intentions to anon guests' choice to post without an identity, like our supposed disaffection with long-term members, or pathetic attempts to paint articulate anon guests as malcontents who have lost the Mudcat popularity contest, and come back to taunt the forum.

Some of us don't need the sort of bigoted "community" you are so stridently defending and excusing under the rubric of how embodying bigotry is really just a fine example of Mudcat's humanity.

Not buying, thanks.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: PeteBoom
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:37 AM

Humanoid! (Attempting to avoid the gender-specific term left over from my upbringing...)

I did not KNOW all this stuff about this forum. I'm glad to learn that it has been removed from links of decent, non-prejudiced sites. What sites, pray tell, are these, that I too, may abandon the bigoted community here and dance in the warm sunshine of those non-bigoted locales?

Of course, I'm also curious. If you detest this place so much, why do you keep coming back?

Rather reminds me of a fellow who used to go to a "celtic" site and got angry when he did not get the answer he wanted to his question... "How do you become a celtic?" Come to think of it, he called that forum racist and bigoted too...

Have a generally acceptable and racist/ethicist and other prejudice-free day.

Pete

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:44 AM

Nice bigoted trolling there Pete! Equating "Celticness" with bigotry. A shining example of what I've been talking about all along in this thread.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:49 AM

You know why you reacted, Doc? Because you know it is true. If you didn't need the community, you wouldn't even bother to respond. And your pretending to stay on a higher plane doesn't fool me. I understand what motivates you, and every time you respond, you prove me true. Get help, you need it.

Your post begets the question. If you find this place so objectionable, why do you continue to shower us with your poor justifications for your behaviour? Any person of honor, if they found a site so objectionable would just quit going there. You continue because it feeds your needs. Again, get help, you need it.

Mick

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:50 AM

I've got no problem with GUESTS in general, just the occasional specific GUEST who is deliberately obnoxious and out to cause trouble. Matter of fact, we frequently get other GUESTS who, like Mudcat members, complain about those specific GUESTS themselves! Now how do we figure out which GUEST is which, when they are all called "GUEST"???

And which GUEST exactly are we talking about this time?

If you can't see the humour in this, maybe you need to rent a couple of old Charlie Chaplain movies and unwind for awhile.

There's another thing...yes, we tolerate swearing, etc, better when it comes from someone we already know well and have a multi-leveled understanding of...than when it comes out of the blue from a complete stranger.

Well, gosh! Isn't that exactly what happens all the time in REAL LIFE (off the internet, I mean) too??? Think about it. Do you react to complete strangers on the street or in another car the same way you do to old friends you've known and been around for years? Of course you don't! With a friend, you can assume he's probably just kidding around, or maybe he's having a rough day and is under a bit of a strain. With a total stranger, you don't have a clue where he's coming from.

This is just normal life, folks. It's what normally happens anywhere, not just on the Mudcat. Try barging into any place where the people don't know you from Adam and mouthing off aggressively at them, and see what happens...try it in a bar, in somebody's house, in a workplace, in a club, in a party caucus...anywhere...I guarantee you will not be well received. You will be received much worse, in most cases, than on this forum.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:52 AM

LMAO......oh man....That's a good one Guest!!! I thought the height of half-assed logic had been reached, but I have to admit that once again I am wrong!!! It takes great skill to take something completely innocuous and twist it so as to seem almost sensible.....almost, I said. You are to be commended for your great skill. Thanks for the laugh!

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:59 AM

You know what LH? I don't tolerate bigotry in my presence among friends or family. I confront it, on the spot. And my family and friends know I will do it, so they have--amazingly--learned to not make bigoted statements in my presence.

I don't write off bigotry, racism, and sexism in those I care about to "having a bad day", just so I don't have to do the painful work of confronting them. Ever.

As to how do you distinguish between guests LH, the answer is if you can't distinguish between us based upon the content, then you can't distinguish between us. Some of us aren't concerned about it, and find the irony and humor in some people's obsession about it!

Big Mick, I have no idea who Doc is, but I know that won't stop you and many others from projecting your fears, your paranoia, and your mistrust on every post with a blank From: line.

You are free to believe anything you want about my identity, or the identity of any anon poster. It doesn't make your assumptions about us right.

As to why I post here, its pretty simple. For the same reasons everyone else does. As to why I wouldn't leave because of the offensiveness of the forum--I choose to stay and fight to make it a better place. Is that so hard to understand for a person who has been coming here for years, but has never become a member?

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:03 PM

Another good laugh!!! Guest says, "I don't tolerate bigotry in my presence among friends or family. I confront it, on the spot."

Like what? With a paper bag over your head?

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:04 PM

Well..........the Doc was just a generic comment. But your response to it, and the phrasing you use to respond is exactly like the same as when you sent me a PM regarding a current hot topic. In that PM you told me you were leaving The Mudcat. I didn't believe you. You have just confirmed it for me. Get help, you need it. And that is a wrap for me in this thread.

Mick

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:13 PM

Whatever Big Mick!

I think you may have me confused with someone else, but hey--just because you are paranoid doesn't mean you haven't got any enemies.

I see I have triggered Spaw's L'Enfant Provacateur proclivities, as seen here:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame11.html

Which can only mean one thing. Here come the drones:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame69.html

I'm outta here.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:16 PM

I think in general that Guests are fine, a wonderful addition to the Zoo. As are members. If either members OR Guests start injecting wads of nounless venom, hostile but unspecific perjoratives, angry but unclear clouds of communication which produces more irritation or sadness than understanding, then I conclude I am dealing with one individual -- named or not -- who is temporarily deranged by stress to the point where he has to act it out in posts.

At that point, two factors come in to play -- the individual's own sense of right conduct, and the groups standards of necessary protocols for group continuity. Since temporary dementia has left the first factor out of play, apparently, the drooler gets whatever form of Mudcat justice is around to be deployed -- chastisement, ignoral, Coventry or rant. 'S price you pay for muddying the waters with venom.

The namelessness is only a problem when it is accompanied by destructive intent.

A

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:26 PM

Well said, Amos. Thank you.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:36 PM

The flavor of GUEST posting that keeps coming through as unsavory, to me, is the constant theme of controlling others. As above, where it is suggested that s/he has been able to make people stop saying things s/he has decided are bad. Problem is, the behavior may have been temporarily controlled, but the heart has not changed.

The desire to control is rigid, and strategies in that regard are not intelligently accurate because it is a one-trick solution based on making the controller feel better for the moment. There are lots of ways to assist people who want to change, and most people do want to change despite the appearance they give. But hollering "STOP YOU BAD!" is seldom one of the effective ones. Real change happens in the crucible of closeness, and increased closeness is not facilitated by gagging someone as soon as you are close enough to do it!

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: IanC
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:44 PM

I've just wasted time reading this thread. Oh my god, what a mess!

Joe don't you think it would have been responsible to open this thread with a BS heading?. It's not a MUSIC thread, is it?

Ian

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Pseudolus
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:50 PM

I remember the first time I read a post by Spaw. I remember thinking how incredibly stupid I thought the post was, getting on someone's case about something. Well, now, after all this time I think back and I realize that the post, well, was probably even stupider than I thought! LOL!!! I really like this place and I log in often. I suspect that there are those who do not and why they come back I can only assume is because they get a kick out of stirring up the pot. If you focus on one aspect of a subject (i.e. negativity in Mudcat) then you will eventually believe that is all there is to it. But if you take a chance and step back to look at the whole picture, you might just like what you see.

The bottom line is countless posts have been made by folks logged in as "GUEST" that have been hurtful. Sometimes they are disguised well by adding things that look like they are interested in a productive discussion. Then we find out, eventually that they are only here to cause trouble. That HAS happened, that is a fact. It is also a fact that not all "GUESTS" are like that. But please understand, we can't know one from the other just on appearance, since by appearance they all look like GUEST. So when we see someone with the name GUEST perhaps we can be forgiven for being a little guarded.....even a little on edge. We're human. but when the guest is here solely for the purpose of getting a rise out of the group, it's frustrating, irritating and sometimes, try as we might to ignore it, we lash out. Again, we're human.

I also agree that just having a Mudcat name doesn't mean you aren't a troll or flamer. It doesn't mean that you aren't a bigot, zealot or idiot....or any other "ot". We have our share of "ot's" but on the whole this is a nice place to hang around.......

Frank

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:08 PM

Actually, GUEST, I DO distinguish between various GUESTs based on the content of their posts...exactly as you suggest.

And I have no problem with most of them.

If you have this strong and constant desire to confront and not tolerate bigotry, racism, and sexism wherever they rear their ugly heads, then you are clearly very busy, and no doubt under great strain. You have my sympathy, because you have taken on a tremendous job.

I would suggest that there are far more fruitful fields in which you could toil than this forum when it comes to confronting these rampant evils...like your local bars, for instance, the streets of your town, the schools, the curches, your neighbourhood, the police detachment, the Lion's Club, the sports arena, etc. Someone with your courage needs to march straight into those places and show the bigots, sexists, and racists that they will be TOLERATED NO LONGER!

Yes, the sexism, racism, and bigotry in your town and mine is just seething out of control, and it's time something decisive was done about it! Mudcat is a mere side issue. Stop diddling around here, wasting your valuable time, and grab the bull by the horns where you actually live!

Then come back in a month or two and tell us how it went...our prayers will be with you.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: DougR
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:13 PM

I don't think it is reasonable to equate bigotry of "Guests" with bigotry as it applies to a race, creed, or religion.

Is there a prejudice against Guests that come to the Mudcat only to stir the pot? Yep, I think so.

Is there a prejudice against Guests that participate in duscussions as members do, and do not come here to inflame discussions? Nope, I don't think so.

Is it wrong for a member to express dissatisfaction with a Guest who obviously is bent on causing mischief? Nope, I don't think so.

DougR

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:15 PM

Frank, not only was that a damn fine description of the situation, but on a personal note I want to thank you for recognizing stupidity when you see it. I have been on a quest to take stupidity to new and uncharted levels and I appreciate your comments regarding my success!

Spaw