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Pronunciation of Irish language
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Subject: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:55 AM Is there anyone who can advise me on pronunciation of Irish (Gaelic) either based on the old Irish script, or in Latin script. I just wish to be able to announce a couple of tunes from O'Niells, in the same way as I attempt to introduce Welsh tunes in my best (Englander/Saxon) Welsh. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Hrothgar Date: 16 Jun 04 - 04:24 AM Pronounce it the way it's spelt. Now find somebody to explain how it's spelt .... |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Dáithí mag Fhionainn Date: 16 Jun 04 - 04:50 AM It's often said that the purpose of Irish spelling is to disguise the pronunciation! Your best bet would be to post the titles you're interested in, and I'm sure one of the many Irish speakers on Mudcat will give you a phonetic version. there are, of course, dialect differences to contend with too. (i originally learnt Munster Irish and am now concentrating on Donegal Irish) Adh mór! Dáithí |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Fiolar Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:28 AM Daithi: You must be mad. Pavane: For the old Irish script, try and get hold of Father Patrick Dineen's "Focloir Gaedilge agus Bearla" (Irish-English Dictionary) published by the Irish Texts Society, Dublin. ISBN is 1-870-16600-0. It gives a comprehensive guide on pronounciation using the old script, which incidentally I find easier than the modern one. Best of luck Fiolar |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:38 AM Thanks. Unfortunately, the examples I have are in the old script, which is difficult to post here, and I don't yet have a transliteration into the new! Maybe if I just post the English titles, someone could supply the Irish? |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:39 AM E.g. 'Another Jig will do', 'Hunt the Hare' |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:45 AM It's not difficult to transpose the old script. If a letter has a dot on top of it, substitute the letter 'h' for the dot. Be careful distinguishing 'r' from 's' as they look rather similar in the old script. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,barry Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:53 AM Pavane If you want to make an attempt to put up the text of the tune title someone might know it. Otherwise put up the number from O'neill's and I'll look them up at home. I can put up the title in modern irish script and let the native speakers from the regions argue about pronunciation. I learned "Dublin Irish" and when as a student I went to Ran na Feirste in Donegal I thought I was in a foreign country - couldn't understand a word. It might be a day or two before I get back to you cos i dont have O'Neills with me at work. FYI - there are several old gaelic fonts available to download on the net - gailge2, gaelA, gaelB, etc.. Cant remember where I got them but google should find them for anyone interested. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:54 AM Perhaps my pronunciation guide will help Click here a few other aids as well are at the main page: Click here have fun! Conrad ------------------------------------------------ Links updated. JoeClone |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:58 AM Thanks Guest - but there are also letters which don't seem to match any latin letter - for example, one like an o but with a line at the top going left. And what about a C with a dot over it? |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 07:03 AM Conrad, Yes there are some useful hints there. It looks like Eclipsis corresponds to what the Welsh have as Mutations? Thanks |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 04 - 07:07 AM Pavane - try this. Wherever there is a dot over the letter - replace the dot with the letter h imediately after that letter. This is called a buailte and is used to alter/soften the pronunciation. The line over the letter is called a fada and is used to accentuate the vowel. You cant replace this in modrn text. Try writing the names using a h instead of dot and leave out the fadas for the moment. We might be able to do somthing for you. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 16 Jun 04 - 07:16 AM The Welsh have mutations? Dont know anything about welsh.... Glad you found the pages helpful. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,noddy Date: 16 Jun 04 - 08:45 AM I though it was pronounced I-RISH Lang widge.? |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 08:52 AM Would have heard it if I had Big Ears |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 08:59 AM Welsh mutations These occur when the mutated letter follows particular other letters Examples Coch = red (like Byrn Coch, where I live - which is Red Hill) Draig = dragon red dragon becomes y ddraig goch Other possibilities include B -> F ( as in Bach -> Fach (small)) C -> G -> Ng D -> dd (pron Th) Complicates the dictionary somewhat when the first letter of a word can change. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:13 AM much easier if you post the Irish as written, and tell us if there is a dot over any letter or a long mark over a vowel. The fadas aren't just really for emphasis, they do indeed change the pronunciation, just like long vowels in english are different from short. BASIC pronunciation, discounting regional dialects, and not getting into the broad and slender characteristics are: a - as u in up á - as aw in maw e - as e in bet é - as ei in reign i - as i in bit í - as ee in feel o - as u in up ó - as o in go u - as u in up ú - as oo in boot b - as in boy c - as in cat, ALWAYS a hard c d - as in door f - as in fit g - as in good h - as in hat l - as in luck m - as in Mary n - as in nut p - as in Paul r - as in rat s - as in sam or sham depending on vowels t - as in tip dots over certain consonants cause lenition or softening (lenience) bh - as v or w as in will or vwill ch - as in German ach, a gutteral sound, as in chutzpah dh - as in y in yell or silent, Gaelic was spelled Gaedhelic once fh - silent gh - as y mh - v or w ph - as f sh - silent th - silent another consonant change is called eclipsis, always pronounce the first letter in the combination co mb - as m gc - as g nd - as n bhf - as v bp - as b dt - as d hope this helps a bit, but give us the Irish, we'll help you pronounce it |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:23 AM correction, as I proof read too late!, in lenition or aspiration or séimhu (shay-voo) sh - as h in hat th - as h in hat OR silent at end of word in eclipsis or úrú (oo-roo) ng - as n I'm sure many will contradict what I have attempted, but as I said it is a rough guide! |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 12:04 PM Bill, It is written in old script, so I can't post it directly I only really wanted one or two tune names for a gig. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Paranoid Android Date: 16 Jun 04 - 05:37 PM I learned Irish in a Christian Brothers School. Fucking Great. If a word begins with Bh or Mh then you covert that to "W". If it begins with Th the T is lost and it begins with a "H". example "Ca bhuil tu ag dul? "= "Where are you going? "Phonetically sounds like "Caw will two egg dull? example 2 "An mhait leat bheith ar scoil?"="Do you like being at school?" Phonetically sounds like, "On wah lat veh er scull? I agree with the earlier suggestion from Dathai that you submit the titles of the songs you wish to perform and I (or some other late night Mudcatter) will "Transpose them to phonetic sounds for you. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 17 Jun 04 - 11:00 AM Well, I did post a couple already - see above, but in English. Need the Irish name first |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:10 AM You CAN transpose the titles to a modern font page 17 of O'Neill's 1001: Cluig Sean-duin (Shandon Bells) Aeridheacht na bPiobairi (The Piper's Picnic) Rogha Ui h-Artagain (Hartigan's Fancy) An Suiste Bhuide (The Yellow Flail) Triallta Chaitilin (Kitty's Rambles) I notice O'Neill doesn't include the elongation (accent) marks (Uí h-Artagáin, Chaitilí, etc); there are a number of ways to keyboard these - see the old thread on "The Fada in Irish Vowels" - or sometimes people write the awkward looking Ui/ h-Artaga/in, etc. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 18 Jun 04 - 06:54 AM Well, yes, if you know the rules! Number 433, page 85, Hunting the Hare looks tricky though. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,barry Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:23 PM Hunting thr Hare Ag fiadhach an girrfhiadh Pronounced egg fee-och on gurry |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:36 PM To help people offering pronunciation guides, it would be useful to indicate if you speak Merkin or British English, because phonetic renderings from Irish will depend on how people assume you will pronounce the "English" equivalents. Some of the Irish titles in O'Neill's can be a bit hard to read, but here's a website that gives a straightforward comparative table. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Barry Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:56 PM Number 437 Another jig will do deanfaidh port eile pronounced jane-fee purt ella I'm sure I'll get in trouble with someone for my attempts but as I understand it pavane you want to be able to make a reasonable attempt to introduce the tunes on stage so I'm not too far off. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:57 PM Thanks for that. I am English, so would interpret any phonetics as based roughly on what I think they call RP (Received Pronunciation?) Of course, for REAL phonetics, we need yet another font/typeface... The one with the upside down e and so son. (I think I can manage egg & curry though) |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 18 Jun 04 - 01:53 PM Ag Fiadhach an Girrfhiadh literally 'Hunting the Hare' egg fyach an gurrah, rather than fee-och and gurry, I think, now 'hare' is spelled in modern Irish convention, giorria, if that is any easier! Déanfaidh port eile - as Barry has above, jane-fee purt ella, because of the fada on the e, the future from of the verb 'do' so literally word for word 'will do jig another' or in English ' Another Jig will do!' |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 18 Jun 04 - 02:54 PM Post the words of a song you want to sing and I can email you an mp3 of me saying the words, probably. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 18 Jun 04 - 02:56 PM Oh, and most songs are available in both the traditional script and what Connemara people refer to as "na damanta haitch-anna" (the damned aitches), so if you just put in a title, we can probably come up with the words in Irish and English, plus an mp3 of how the words sound. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:32 PM Oh, and if I don't answer, ask Amos to give me a shout. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:52 PM Guest JTT - it isn't as much as a song, just a few tune titles. When I have finally decided which tunes, (to go with these two above) I will post the English names. That idea of an MP3 sounds great, and for a few phrases it should be quite small. So far, then, from the posts above, two slip jigs Ag Fiadhach an Girrfhiadh : literally 'Hunting the Hare' deanfaidh port eile : Another jig will do Also Si beag, si mor (is that spelling right?) The Blarney Pilgrim - would that be Turasa bhlarnaigh? My attempt at transliteration That would probably be enough! Thanks to all so far for the help. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:00 PM She byug, she more tour us uh vlarney |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:30 PM Tell me where to email an mp3 and I'll work out how to make one. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: John in Brisbane Date: 19 Jun 04 - 12:16 AM Maybe slightly off topic, but was listening yesterday on Radio National to an Irish lady who works in the English Faculty at University of Adelaide. Her main theme was how old Irish words have become part of Australian slang and were often used initially as secret words. The most interesting assertion was that the word 'didgeridoo' was the concatenation of two Irish words meaning 'black man' and 'trumpet'. While she did give the original words I have no idea what they were. The segment was not long but the other slang she mentioned was 'kip' - the flat piece of wood used to toss pennies in the air in the gambling game of Two Up, 'cracking on' as in attempting to seduce (but not derived from 'craic'), and notably 'sheila' which in the earliest days of colonial Australia (when men outnumbered women nine to one) was an Irish word for homosexual - pronounced 'shayla' in those times. For those that don't know 'sheila' was a condescending term for a woman and largely supplanted by American terms such as 'chick'. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: John in Brisbane Date: 19 Jun 04 - 03:47 AM Forgot to mention that the source for some of the Irish language roots is the Oxford Book of Australian Slang. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Fiolar Date: 19 Jun 04 - 05:20 AM A word of caution folks. The pronounciation of Irish will all depend on which part of Ireland you come from. Some years ago I got a postal course from Lingophone with the idea of brushing up on my Irish. I learned Munster Irish. The course was in Leinster Irish with some words pronounced completely different to what I learned. I gave up. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST Date: 19 Jun 04 - 06:47 AM Pavane - you are right to seek the help of the talented and helpful folk here, but there is a readily available tool that would likely help as well. There is a music book called "The Celtic Fake Book" with some 450 or so songs and tunes from a variety of Celtic cultures. More to the point here, is that the book includes a very helpful pronunciation guide to Irish Gaelic, designed to facilitate pronunciation of the titles. It's available here (FL)for about US$20. I wouldn't take as an authoritative manual, but it may serve your needs (which many of us share). Thanks for starting this most inetresting thread. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 19 Jun 04 - 07:37 AM SO I presume there is no 'Standard' Irish pronunciation, just the regional versions? I don't really mind which, as I will be using it in Wales anyway, and only for a few words. The same kind of difference occurs in Welsh between North and South Wales (But I don't speak either version) |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST Date: 19 Jun 04 - 10:20 AM Problems in pronounciation of Irish are greatly exaggerated by people who haven't been taught or never bothered to learn how to pronounce the vowels in Irish first. Naturally it is impossible to make words sound even halfway right if the vowels are pronounced as if the reader was reading English. Any good book on learning Irish will give the correct pronouncations and the question of the various dialects is no more difficult than is listening to English dialects as spoken by a Londoner and a Yorkshire person. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 19 Jun 04 - 04:40 PM There are three dialects of Irish: Connacht, Munster and Ulster; though there is blurring where the borders meet. Mostly it's to do with *slight* differences in pronunciation - no greater than the difference between, say, a Northern Irish accent and the accent of someone from Cork, which seems huge to anyone Irish but almost indecipherable to Americans. In very commonly used phrases like "How are you" there are also variations in these dialects, as there are in the English of the regions. (For instance, a Belfast person speaking English would be likely to greet a friend with "how's about ye?", whereas a Dubliner might say "how's it going?"; in Irish the northerner would say "Cad é mar atá tú?" and a Connacht person "Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú". Big deal. Once you've learned the basics of the language, all this kind of stuff is taken easily in your stride.) Indeed, come to think of it, I was learning Mandarin a couple of years ago, and learned xie-xie for "thanks"; talking to a pal recently I was told "Dosyeh" was also commonly used. This is the kind of level of differences in Irish dialects. Again, dialect differences in pronunciation - where someone from West Cork might say "thaw" for "tá", someone from Connemara would say it more like "taa", and someone from the North more like "tay" - hence all the people called "Shane" rather than "Shawn" in America - they're descendants of Northerners who pronounced the name Seán like that. Anyway, the offer stands, Pavane; if you want a simple mp3 file or two on how to say the phrases you're looking for, send me your email address - email me at drnua at yahoo com - and I'll email you the files of the phrases you require. I've now downloaded a program that allows me to record my voice as an mp3 file on my Mac, so it's easy enough. But no pressure - plenty of good advice from others here. By the way, I assume that everyone here knows that Raidió na Gaeltachta is online (as is RTE Lyric FM if you like classical music and occasionally some traditional - they're currently playing a lot of the music referenced in Joyce's books, and have a Joyce music CD out) and RTE1 and 2. A google should lead you to any of them. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 19 Jun 04 - 04:41 PM By the way, the word for a hare in Irish, giorraí, actually means "short deer". If you've ever lain on a hill and watched hares (or deer) below, you'll see why. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Big Al Whittle Date: 19 Jun 04 - 08:08 PM How do you pronounce the lady's name who sings with Chris Newman? |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: John in Brisbane Date: 19 Jun 04 - 10:47 PM Guest, do you have a copy of the Celtic Fake Book. If you were able to scan the index then someone here could post the details for posterity. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 20 Jun 04 - 10:11 AM How do you spell her name, weel? |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Big Mick Date: 20 Jun 04 - 12:58 PM The Celtic Fake Book Publisher: Hal Leonard Corporation ISBN: 0-634-01727-6 |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 21 Jun 04 - 07:54 AM JTT, Máire Ní Chathasaigh is the singer and harpist "weedrummer" refers to. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:24 AM I see I made an error transcribing "buidhe"! but honestly, anyone can do it - no need to know any Irish (unless you want to substitute the modern spellings). Basically, you just substitute a dot above a letter with an "h". "An Pluiméir Ceolmhar" gives a handy link on his message of 18 June. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 21 Jun 04 - 09:25 AM More-uh Nee Ha-uh-see some might say Moy-ruh, and the Ha, as in hat has a bit of the 'ch' in 'ach' sound |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 21 Jun 04 - 02:00 PM What Bill says. Incidentally, the dot over a consonant to soften it was a shorthand adopted in the 18th century by the poets who had been thrown on to farmwork by the loss of their aristocratic Gaelic patrons. After work they'd go back to the bothy where the farmhands worked, and write by rushlight, copying out by memory their own compositions and also the traditional stories, songs and poems that had been in the oral tradition, sometimes for many hundreds of years. They formed a kind of shorthand of which only the buailte - the dot over the consonant - survived. Hey, Pavane seems to have disappeared once I made the offer. Weird! My Irish isn't *that* bad! |
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