BS: Lies, Lies, Lies

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Gareth
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:34 AM

Sorry LH - I thnk you missed my point.

Nazism (SP) did bring out the best in some people Not confined to Germany.

Perhaps I could have put it clearer, but the reaction against brought out many deeds and attitudes in resistance.

Not that this justifies that repugnant creed.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:48 AM

And that's true - but inevitably it also brought out the worst as well. All too often we take on the qualties of those we fight against.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:34 AM

Im a bit surprised by the tone of some replies to my query "What do we do about I. F.
Some Mudcats seem to think I am racist or bigoted against Moslems.
This is certainly not true,but I stillfeel that I F is the greatest danger the West has faced,because it take a small number of people who dont care for their own lives or safety,and who have no regard for the suffering of others. In other words anything is permissible if its for the "glory of god"
Its all about power.
The West gets its power from enslaving people by the use of money
The Fundamentalists get their power by promising "pie in the sky"
The manipulators are all scum,be they Iranian Mullahs or American Republicans.
If this is an example of the modern world,give me the Stone age any day .....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:56 AM

From previous posts I am sure you are not bigoted against Muslim, ake - but when you talked about "the leaders of Islam" as "determined to wipe it out (Western culture) through increasing terrorist activity" you were using the language that bigots use, and saying something that is simply not true.

Those who are proponents of terrorism are not "the leaders of Islam", insofar as that there are such people - Islam is as fragmented and diverse as Christianity. They aren't even the leaders of fundamentalist Islam, and that is fragmented too, and means all kinds of things, some very nasty and others a lot less so.

It's a bit like equating anarchists with bomb-throwers, and ignoring the reality that most people who'd use that term to describe themselves are committed to non-violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:55 PM

"All of the terrorist leaders consider Bush their enemy"

Isn't it funny that alot of the world leaders now consider him the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:15 PM

Oh, I see, Gareth...

Well, to answer Clint in as simple a way as possible:

What brings out the best in people is inspired leadership (whether it be by their parents, their teachers, their military commanders, their political leaders or their religious leaders). Inspired leadership can accomplish virtual miracles.

When you deeply admire a parent, a teacher, an officer, a president...when you trust them and feel you can rely on them in any situation...when you love them deeply...THAT brings out the best in people.

And what is "the best"? It equates to courage, love, compassion, idealism, confidence, good humour, determination, loyalty, mercy, fairness, tolerance, and other such virtues. I remember a couple of really good teachers in my years at school who brought forth those virtues in their students, and those teachers were worth their weight in gold, I can tell you.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:02 PM

"When you deeply admire a parent, a teacher, an officer, a president...when you trust them and feel you can rely on them in any situation...when you love them deeply...THAT brings out the best in people."

A lot of Germans felt that way about Hitler. And Jim Jones. And the Heaven's Gate honchos under their many names...

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:10 PM

put in "people" instead of "Germans," please. Vocabulary malfunction.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:20 PM

IIRC the Heaven's Gate leader was named Appleby, and his wife was likewise.

Did they have othe rnames? Many?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:38 PM

That's right, Clint, and it raises some interesting questions, doesn't it?

But the important question for you is...who do YOU feel that way about???? There will always be others who think differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:52 PM

There were a lot of people who felt that way about George Washington. If the revolutionaries had lost, those people would not have been seen in such a positive light in the history books that followed.

I, by the way, think those people were entirely justified in their positive view of George Washington. He was a very good leader, in my opinion. But British loyalists might well have hated and detested him...for reasons which made perfect sense to them.

A bad leader by definition is one who either (1) is not very good at leading (2) or who leads the people far astray, despite being good at leading. Hitler qualifies bigtime for number 2. George Washington doesn't qualify for either.

To recognize that perfectly normal and decent people can mistakenly back a leader who is leading them astray, Clint, is to learn compassion. Millions and millions of perfectly normal Germans mistakenly backed Hitler, and if he had won the war their descendants would still be singing his praises, there would be statues of him everywhere, and virtually no one would even believe there had been any genocide against anyone by the Germans. It would be forgotten. Swept under the carpet. Classified information.   Depend on it. That's the power of propaganda and media over people's view of reality.

The reason you hate the Nazis is because they lost, and you now have the benefit of hindsight over the matter. If they had won, you would not have the benefit of hindsight. You...or whoever was living in your place now would probably be under the totally false impression that they had "saved the World for democracy" or some such sort of nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:14 PM

I thought Heaven's Gate leader was Marshall Hepplewhite (sp?)???

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:29 PM

LH

Well. I disliked the Nazis before they lost. I don't like the way the "we" treated the Indians, or the Filipinos although "we" won.

Leadership, courage, loyalty, intelligence, even self-sacrifice are strengths, not virtues; possession of those qualities makes a good man better and a bad man worse - up to the point where the good man is too successful and becomes corrupted by power.

We depend too much on leaders. Perhaps we need to think more in terms of guides. Better yet on becoming more enlightened ourselves

Amos-
Maybe I'm confusing the Heaven's Gate leaders with someone else; there were some nuts that went by "He" and "She" and other clever combinations. "Bo" and "Peep"? I'll see if I can look it up.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:46 PM

I just googled "bo and peep:"

http://www.factnet.org/hgsinger.htm?FACTNet    says

At first they called themselves Guinea and Pig -- she was Guinea, and he was Pig -- because that was what they were: guinea pigs for the higher power in the space ship. They didn't want their real names used because they were in the process of getting rid of their identity. Later they called themselves Bo and Peep, apparently because they considered themselves to be shepherds. Their followers became known as Bo Peepers.

This woman had written a diary about her experiences while she was in the cult. My informant, as I call her, told me that she had found out the names of the real names of the leaders of this cult were Marshall Herb Applewhite, and the woman's name was Binder Truce Dell Nettles.

And from another site:

Do and Ti (aka Bo and Peep)

Birth/Death:

Do (1931-1997) was born Marshall Herff Applewhite in Spur, Texas;Ti (1927- 1985) was born Bonnie Lu Nettles, birthplace unknown.

I didn't go any farther... clint

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:01 PM

Thanks, Clint!! My memory is much improved by your research!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:34 PM

As far as I'm concerned, virtues ARE strengths...and many strengths are also virtues (but not all of them). One can be very strong and not the least bit virtuous. Or one can be a mixture, which is the case with most people.

I suspect that I would also have disliked the Nazis before they lost...most probably. (I usually dislike aggressive, militaristic forces in society, and I tend to side with the underdog if with anyone.) I wasn't around before they lost, though. My father was, and he fought against them.

Words are confusing. They don't express enough by themselves. You also need to know the context, the emotional communication, the origins of the speaker, and so on. Half (or more) of these arguments we get into on the Net are just pointless, because we are really arguing about nothing...just misinterpreting other people's words. We end up arguing not to uncover any Truth, but merely to win. I find that kind of discouraging. It makes me wonder why I even bother to communicate with people this way.

I could probably be doing something far more productive, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:45 PM

Oh, here are a couple more things that CAN bring out the best in people...

Love

Adversity

You can also probably come up with examples when those things bring the worst out in people if you want...but that doesn't invalidate the original statement...

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 29 May 04 - 12:20 AM

Well, my point was that many people confuse strengths with virtues.

For instance, I used to think that an intelligent man would necessarily be a good man, because he could see that honesty is the best policy, and his self-interest would be enlightened self-interest. It finally came to me that, reasonable as I thought that opinion was, in practice there's lots of intelligent scoundrels.

"Decisiveness" is considered a virtue lately, but as Mr. Vonnegut said recently, psychopaths are very good at decisiveness. And courage.

I thiink I should have said something like "goodness" instead of "virtue." I believe "virtue" originally was connected more to strength & power than decency, & still is in some uses.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 May 04 - 01:05 PM

In Latin the word virtus means strength - but Romans were realistic enough to know that this wasn't necessarily a good thing. The distinction Clint makes is a useful one.

Without it you get into the absurd situation where it is suggested that a suicide bomber must be a coward, because being courageous is obviously a good thing, and therefore can't apply to anyone engaged in something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:44 AM

Lawyers told the British government that US and British bombing of Iraq in the months before the war was illegal under international law....

Iraq prewar attack was illegal