BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:10 PM

Not so great if you were genuinely in need of the police and they had been called out to that debacle though?

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:51 PM

"Good Humour is an Exaggeration and Distortion of Mundane Reality."

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:13 PM

Foolestroupe! What a great story!!! LOL!

I feel I should include this brief excerpt from something I said once quite innocently about our mutual pal, Spaw (Catspaw49), as it is somewhat in the spirit of this thread:

"...except of course for Spaw. He is an incompetent, simple-minded, concupiscient wretch. He is vague, obtuse, vulgar, and lacks discrimination. His attempts at what he thinks of as ribald humor are akin to the noisy wallowings of a dyspeptic hog in a cesspool, guaranteed to offend while perhaps amusing in some small peripheral way. He is silly, repetitive, pompous, licentious and vain. He bores more effectively than an auger. To peruse his inane ramblings is an experience similar to copulating with a dead porcupine, in that one suffers freqent annoying pain while attaining absolutely no personal satisfaction whatsoever. To call this man "human" in fact would be to stretch the term considerably beyond its usual compass into hitherto unglimpsed realms of sheer blundering idiocy that would have caused even the Three Stooges to feel a shuddering twinge of envy. In short, the man is a fool, a prat, a know nothing. He is the blither in blather, the riff of raff, the null of void. He makes Neil Young sound lucid! And that is why he is universally despised. It has nothing to do with the nude windsurfing incident at the marina. Nothing whatsoever."


Now to be more serious for a moment here...

I have noticed that it's very difficult to talk people into abandoning a toxic emotion they're dragging around with them, such as anger against a particular individual, due to a past incident. Nope, they'd rather stay angry forever. They've gotten used to it and they like it. They'd rather believe that the other person is incapable of ever changing, and then prove it by never changing themselves! Ha! This is funny. Well, this is okay if you don't let it make you angry too, I suppose... :-)

I don't. If daylia is smart, she won't either...this time. Right, daylia?

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:21 PM

Try herbal tea.

Peg: Catnip, Chamomile, Rosemary teas are soothing.

Sometimes the needs of the moment require a strike rather than a parry or an evasion. Aikido is a method of fighting, and before getting too spiritual about it all,

Brucie: I agree completely. Sometimes you do not have a choice; and MUST act.

side and going for Qi Gung. A good bit of deep breathing and Qi (Chi) stengthening will help to rid you of the need to fight in the first place:-)

Dave; I wish you were correct. :-(

I have ended up embroiled in more verbal fights online than I care to remember, and I am a Zhan Zhuang Qigong master, and have received the title master in seven other disciplines. :-(

Ditto about sounding more hostile or one-sided than intended. I agree with mack - there does seem to be something about the net that can bring out the worst in people.

Daylia: It is not the net. the problem is in several areas.

1. with E-Mail there are just words. there is no inflection to pick up on if the person is joking.

2. The current generation is not as polite as earlier generations were.

3. The net is world wide, and a comment that is not offensive here; may be offensive elsewhere. Remember when President GHW Bush (if memory serves) went to Australia and as he was leaving waved two fingers (a backward peace sign), and that gesture was offensive to the Australian people.

4. You are talking to people you have never met, and likely never will meet.

and other reasons.

Aikido is a lot like jiu jitsu. Less strength, more ki (chi, qi) than in Jiu jitsu. Whatever "ki" is.

Clint: Ki is the Japanese name for universe lifeforce energy (ULE); just as qi or ch'i are the Chinese names for it. itaki is the Pueblo indian name for it, nuwati is the Cherokee name for it, and mana is the Hawai'ian name for ULE.

Daylia, myself and all energy healers use Ki for healing almost every day.

D T Suzuki published a very good book on Zen and the sword. I think it was published by Tuttle. Worth buying as the philosphy he expounded can be applied to all martial arts.

Shanghaiceltic: I have read three books on Zen by DT. Suzuki ("Zen Manual", "Introduction To Zen", and "Zen Buddhism: Selected Writings Of DT Suzuki") , and I will never waste more money on this particular author. If someone is interested in Zen; I would recommend

"Zen Keys" Thich Nhat Hanh
"Three Pillars Of Zen" Phillip Kapleau
and possibly "Zen Mind: Beginners Mind" Shunryu Suzuki

When I was taking martial arts in the 1960s; I spent many hours sitting seiza in Zazen meditation (Zazen is great for developing mindfulness (being present in the moment instead of living in the past or the future.)

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:36 PM

Frankly, I would never allow a healer to come into my space who is angry, egotistic, racist, out of control and judgmental. There is a woman in my town who is a massage therapist and I feel the same way about her.

That said, I welcome healers who are at peace with themselves and with the universe, people whose eyes reflect love and acceptance, people whose voices and body language welcome all in oneness.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:41 PM

People are many things. I've been around Two Bears and have not found his tendency to be verbally combative on certain issues to interfere in the least with his healing capabilities or his basically kindly nature.

For instance, he and I disagree radically on a lot of political things. That's mainly because we hale from different backgrounds. It in no way hampers us working together on healing modalities or being good friends in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:48 PM

Nope, Little Hawk. Not convincing. Another's energies affect each of us; negative energies diminish us.

But hey. Knock yourself out.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:46 PM

Sure thing. :-) You too, Ebbie. I have no idea why Two Bears is so combative on the Net. I think it might be because he's a really lousy typist.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:53 PM

LOL That's meant to be convincing, Little Hawk?

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:54 PM

"Clint: Ki is the Japanese name for universe lifeforce energy (ULE); just as qi or ch'i are the Chinese names for it. itaki is the Pueblo indian name for it, nuwati is the Cherokee name for it, and mana is the Hawai'ian name for ULE."

There's also prana and ruach. But all those are just names, not explanations or even descriptions. I had a book (now lost) by an aikidoka who claimed there is no such thing as ki; it's all physics, anatomy, psychology and confidence. I don't agree entirely, but a lot of things the aikido people call "ki" is a mixture of those things. Plus momentum & timing & who knows what. Especially the tricks people show you to demonstrate ki/chi are not always done with chi.

Is the chi that circulates through the acupuncture meridians the same as the chi that you use to heal? That a small person can use to throw a large person? (Do those meridians even exist except as a theoretical construct?)

There are some qi gong excercises you can do that will let you feel the chi in your hands, and after a lot of practice you can feel it in your arms & then your whole body. And it seems to be related to blood circulation. But what is it, aside from a word that makes it possible to talk about certain undefined phenomena?

That's why I said "whatever it is." It's a mystery. And a bit of thread drift, I suppose.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:56 PM

Convincing of what, Ebbie?

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:57 PM

(I don't think you're even trying to get my drift here...)

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:12 PM

Frankly, I would never allow a healer to come into my space who is angry, egotistic, racist, out of control and judgmental. There is a woman in my town who is a massage therapist and I feel the same way about her.

Ebbie: I am none of those things, and you would know that; if you knew me.

If you had not been judgemental; and asked for a clarification; I would have done my best to explain the statement to you.

I will assume you are referring to the time we clashed about the war in Iraq. so I will take a bit of time here.

Anger: This life is a gift from the Great Spirit, Universe, God, Goddess, etc (however one chooses to acknowledge the higher powers). and it is our duty to protect that precious gift. It is not anger to protect that life from people who are intent on killing you.

Egotistic: I am not sure how this fits me in my opinion; but I will try to explain it. Do I appear to be egotistic at times? most likely; but appearing to be egotistical is NOT necessarily being egotistical. Ebbie: I have done MANY things in this incarnation, and have had experiences in martial arts, assorted religions, different healing modalities, etc. Well I have studied more than a dozen different healing modalities, and have received the title "master" or higher in eight of them, and personally I feel it is my duty to caution those following in my footsteps about the pitfalls, and when some professional author, or some person recommends an exercize that is harmful to their physical, mental, psychological, or spiritual health; I will speak up and tell people the practise is not safe. Because I speak out from experience does not mean i am egotistical.

Racist: Up until 30 years ago; I USED to be racist. At that time; I would even go so far as to say I USED to be a bigot (as bad or worse than Archie Bunker). My Guardians indoctrinated me to Hate the Japanese, and the Blacks. I got to know Blacks and Japanese, and quickly learned that my guardians were idiots. For years; I have called members of all races brothers and sisters. In our debate I tried to make it abundantly clear that I have NO problems with Arabs, Japanese, Koreans, Americans, etc; but I DO have problems with people who are trying to kill inocent men, women and children (No matter what race they are, or what religion they practise.

Out of control: That is only an opinion of yours.

Judgemental: I do not judge people according to their race, sexual orientation, religion, because they smoke, drink, overeat, etc. When someone harms a child or an elder that person is spiritualy sick, and I do judge them based on their actions.

It IS true that Jesus said "Judge not; lest ye be judged" but he was talking about people judging the person's immortal soul.

In Matthew 16: 19; Jesus said the following to Peter "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatosever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shalt be loosed in heaven"

In Matthew 18: 18; Jesus said almost the same thing; but in this case it was to all of the disciples instead of strictly to Peter as in the first verse.

I will judge evil everytime I see it. Terrorists who try to kill inocent men women and children that did nothing to them is evil.

Even Jesus (the greatest healer) was judgemental.

Jesus cast out many unclean spirits (a legion from just one man).

Jesus over turned the money tables in the temple, and ran the money changers out of the temple with a stick.

I do not remember where it is; but a concordance can find it easily enough; but Jesus was walkingm abd wanted figs (because they were in season) but the fig tree was bare, and he cursed the tree, and the tree died a few days later.

That said, I welcome healers who are at peace with themselves and with the universe, people whose eyes reflect love and acceptance, people whose voices and body language welcome all in oneness.

Then you will not get to know many very good healers. I would rather have a healer who is honest, and will say the same thing to your face he or she will say behind your back.

In case; you are thinking of a healer's moods affecting the energy coming from them; This IS a problem with Qigong, Reiki, Seichim, Actualism, Silva Mind Control, and most others.

This is NOT a problem with getting a healing from myself; Daylia, and ANY HUNA practitioner that heals with mana loa instead basic mana or mana mana.

I gather the mana surcharge, and choose a prayer picture; but I do NOT send the prayer picture and mana surcharge to you (if I were doing a healing for you. I send the energy, and prayer picture to YOUR 'Aumakua. Your 'Aumakua converts the basic mana into mana loa (spiritual lifeforce energy (without any of my emotons, ego, etc) and uses that to manifest the prayer picture into reality (if it is in your highest good) If that is not in your highest good; the prayer picture is done away with, then uses the mana loa in a way that is in your highest good.

If you have other questions or comments; PM me.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:40 PM

There's also prana and ruach. But all those are just names, not explanations or even descriptions.

Clint: There are names for ULE from every culture that has discovered it. I have seen a a list of 15-20 different names for lifeforce energy.

I had a book (now lost) by an aikidoka who claimed there is no such thing as ki; it's all physics, anatomy, psychology and confidence. I don't agree entirely, but a lot of things the aikido

I must disagree with that book. ULE is a real force that can be directed with the mind.

Is the chi that circulates through the acupuncture meridians the same as the chi that you use to heal?

Yes. There is only one universal lifeforce energy.

Qigong, HUNA, etc healers gather a surcharge of energy via deep breathing before the healing.

Actualism, pranic healing, Reiki, Seichim, Silva Mind Control, Therapeitic Touch, etc either use the lifeforce of the healer. or consciously tap into the sea of ULE all around us.

That a small person can use to throw a large person? (Do those meridians even exist except as a theoretical construct?)

Physical strength is not important. Mental strength, and the ability to focus the mind into a one pointed concentration, and the ability to direct the lifeforce is very important.

Yes; I believe the meridians are real. Because I can feel the energy flowing through my body when I still my mind, AND I can feel the areas where a person has blocked meridians by scanning the person with my hands about 4-6 inches above the body.

There are some qi gong excercises you can do that will let you feel the chi in your hands, and after a lot of practice you can feel it in your arms & then your whole body.

One of the best ones I have seen to experience qi in your hands and arms is the Zhan Zhuang pose "Holding the balloon in front of your face" from the book "The Way Of Energy" by master Lam Kam Chuen.

ANL 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 12:03 AM

Nope, Little Hawk. Not convincing. Another's energies affect each of us; negative energies diminish us.

You are absolutely correct Ebbie. Now you know why the only healing modality I use is HUNA, and the use of mana loa; but I explained that earlier.

Sure thing. :-) You too, Ebbie. I have no idea why Two Bears is so combative on the Net. I think it might be because he's a really lousy typist.

Little Hawk: I am nowhere near as combative as people think I am.

If I were to make the statement "the sun rises in the East" there are people who would disagree with me.

I AM a lousy typist. I use two fingers and use the hunt and peck method of typing.

I have limited time and lifeforce to sit behind this keyboard.

I am as subtle as a brick at times.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:08 AM

"That a small person can use to throw a large person? Physical strength is not important. Mental strength, and the ability to focus the mind into a one pointed concentration, and the ability to direct the lifeforce is very important."

As someone not using all that wonderful mental stuff and all, just physical techniques, I upset the balance of the master showing us 'push hands', because he was expecting all beginners, and I had previously studied some physical technique, so knew about 'getting under' :-) - of course, as soon as he realised what was happening, he reacted in ways I was not expecting and faster than I could counter - (he was definitely better and more experienced - which is WHY he was a master!). He asked me afterwards how long I had studied. :0 I told him it was mostly book study!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:30 AM

I am still reserved on the application of this to verbal abuse expect to maintain a calm mind. A few years ago the very old writings that appeared in Go Rin No Sho (Books of Five Rings) by Musashi Miyamoto were sort of high jacked for business people. It made a mint for the people who tried to apply his thinking (which was very obtuse at times) to business practise.

I see your point now, Shanghaiceltic - thanks for explaining. Sounds like Aikido and Kendo have quite different approaches to very similiar techniques -- where Aikido emphasizes defense, attacking is part of the training in Kendo (I hope I've understood you correctly). And I agree - the "attack mode" is counterproductive when peaceful productive discourse is the goal.

I love what you said about music and the martial arts! Funny, just as you were posting your comments last night, I was busy organizing my studio, checking my piano for tuning, returning my student's calls to confirm their lesson times. I'm back to teaching today after a long summer break -- YIPPEEEEEE!    :-) Studying music is quite the "discipline" too, but when it's presented wisely children just LOVE it anyway.


If daylia is smart, she won't either...this time. Right, daylia?

Right, Little Hawk. I've put myself on notice here in front of you all for a reason - and I'm NOT going to mess up! BTW are we ever going to stop playing phone tag and get together or what????


Is the chi that circulates through the acupuncture meridians the same as the chi that you use to heal? That a small person can use to throw a large person? (Do those meridians even exist except as a theoretical construct?)

As far as I know, yes to all those questions Clint. Chi is chi, whether it's being directed for healing or for "martial" purposes. I work with energy as a complete system ie I have not worked specifically with "meridians". That would require a lifetime or several of study (human beings have at least 108 or so meridians and 8 major chi vessels), so I'm quite content to leave all that to the acupuncturists!

Believe me, if you ever allowed a unscrupulous "healer" or energy worker to mess with your energy to the point of becoming sick with various mysterious ailments that have no physical cause (or standard Western medical remedy), you'd have no doubt that chi is not just a theoretical construct. I know - it happened to me.

Frankly, I would never allow a healer to come into my space who is angry, egotistic, racist, out of control and judgmental...Another's energies affect each of us; negative energies diminish us.

I agree, Ebbie. I'd like to add that the only time someone else's negative energy can "diminish" me is if my own state of physical health/mind/emotions is also "negative". When I can remain calm, loving, and centered; when I have lots of surplus energy due to practicing a healthy physical lifestyle and exercises like Qigong and Huna - then nothing and no-one can affect me in ways that I don't already want to go.

Yes Two Bears, you are subtle as a brick. :-)

In the 15 months I've known you, we've certainly had our "outs" about various things - but never once have you insulted, tried to hurt or "attack" me in any way. You've never become angry for longer than 2 minutes or held a grudge. You're a powerful healer, a good listener, accepting and understanding too - but you certainly don't back down when you feel your integrity or opinions are being challenged, do you?

There are ways of standing firm that work better than others, though ... as McGrath says:

.. there is a difference between expressing disagreement, or responding in a highly critical way, and coming out with a stream of insults which are totally unrelated to the disagreement.   

And that's why I see such value in martial arts principles - to quote Shanghaiceltic and brucie again:

Martial artists (good ones) always respect their opponents.

Sometimes the needs of the moment require a strike rather than a parry or an evasion ... please remember that the purpose of martial arts is to end fights by
1) not engaging in the fight
2) avoiding the fight
3) escaping from the fight or
4) laying a real shit kicking on the attacker(s)

Thanking you all very much for your input here,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 02:15 PM

As someone not using all that wonderful mental stuff and all, just physical techniques, I upset the balance of the master showing us 'push hands', because he was expecting all beginners, and I had previously studied some physical technique, so

Robin: Some people are naturally gifted in the ability to do this kind of stuff, then others have life experiences who develop a powerful one pointed concentration helps one to unconsciously direct a LOT of ULE.

In the 15 months I've known you, we've certainly had our "outs" about various things - but never once have you insulted, tried to hurt or "attack" me in any way. You've never become angry for longer than 2 minutes or held a grudge. You're a powerful healer, a good listener, accepting and understanding too - but you certainly don't back down when you feel your integrity or opinions are being challenged, do you?

Daylia: We have certainly disagreed on several things (such as the notion of good and evil) I have had LOTS of experiences with evil or negative entities, and you have not had those experiences.

Daylia; my integrity is non negotiable.

I have used the following quote several times "There are two opinions that matter to me and neither of them is yours." I think I better explain who holds those opinions that matter to me.

1. My own opinion because I have to face myself in the mirror every morning.

2. The Creator's opinion of me.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 06:45 PM

I hate to tell you, Foolstroupe, but you were using "that wonderful mental stuff." You didn't upset the master because you were stronger, but because you knew something he didn't expect. And knowledge is mental. So is calm, alertness, the ability to anticipate, and so on.

What I'd like to do is weed out all that kind of thing and get to the ki. Whatever it is.

And on the other hand, 2b may be able to throw someone with his ULE, but I suspect he'd need enough strength to lay on his hands; I don't think he can blast you from across the room. Some of the Aikido people say you need to be strong enough to lift 16 pounds. I don't know why that's the magic number -- maybe the Japanese equivalent of a stone?

Quan Sensei, my aikido indtructor, was a small man; he thought he was getting overwight when he got to 130 pounds. And he wasn't muscular, nor even wiry. He had what somebody called "boy arms."

He sat in the japanese seiza position -- kneel and then sit back on your heels -- and had me sit the same way in front of him. He said "Grab my wrists." and held his hands out in front of himself, not tensed, arms bent a little. I leaned forward and grabbed his wrists and he raised his arms from the shoulders without bending his elbows and tipped me over backwards, right over the ends of my toes. I weighed about 190 then.

I didn't feel any great force; for a moment I thought I'd been clumsy somehow and fallen down.

That is what some call "ki." I don't think it was anything magical; he just did it, rather casually. Not brute strength, not leverage, as in judo. But telling me its name doesn't help my understanding much, & that's what I've been trying to say.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 06:54 PM

& daylia, the philosophy of kendo & aikido are not so far apart; in aikido you do not attack pre-emptively, but when you are attacked you generally defend by throwing the bad guy or immobiliziing him with a joint lock, & that would be an attack if you had initiated it. You don't just stand there and block.

The techniques of course are far different.

Aikido is partly based on Japanese swordplay, though not kendo. The Yagyu school, I believe, though I know nothing specifically about it.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 07:18 PM

Kendo was developed from many kenjutsu schools which were part of Japan's sword culture.

Yagyu ryu, Musen Ryu, Katori Shinto Ryu are all still in existance and still teaching.

Each of the original koryu had specific methods which were passed by instruction to their students. Nothing was written down. It was a verbal transmission backed up by practice.

These ryu taught kata using pairs of people and used the solid wooden weapons, the bokken. To allow actual free fighting the koryu developed the bamboo sword the shinai and light body armour.

Also developed were bamboo tipped pole arms called the naginata. There are today schools of naginata. I have fought sword against naginata, a chellange as the fighting distance , the maiai, when using a naginata can be changed where the two handed grip on a sword means the maiai is more or less fixed.

In kendo and naginata the points of the body which are struck are fixed and are covered by the armour. Head, throat, wrists, chest and in naginata the ankles.

In kenjutsu and naginata jutsu most work is done in kata form with no armour and the cuts stopped at the last momemt. Further the cuts are aimed at the weak points of the armour. Inside of the arms, the gap between the helmet (kabuto) and neck, the inside of the crotch.

At one point kenjutsu and kendo followed almost parralled paths it was in about 1910 that the All Japan Kendo Federation was founded to more formalise the rules of kendo and naginatado. It also introduced the grading system.

Unlike in judo, aikido, karatedo, kendoka do not wear belts of any kind. The only way you find out how good a person is by crossing swords.

My sensei in Japan (the older man I mentioned earlier) Hashiba sensei used a particular phrase many times 'Ko ken chi ai' it meant 'respect a person by crossing swords'

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:28 PM

And on the other hand, 2b may be able to throw someone with his ULE, but I suspect he'd need enough strength to lay on his hands; I don't think he can blast you from across the room. Some of the Aikido people say you need to be strong enough to lift 16 pounds. I don't know why that's the magic number -- maybe the Japanese equivalent of a stone?

Clint: I have neen known to throw energy to do healing more than 2000 miles away.

I am not sure what he means about the 16 pounds; but in the orient; 8 is a very auspicious number.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 01:04 AM

"Clint: I have neen known to throw energy to do healing more than 2000 miles away."

I wasn't talking about throwing energy; i was talking about throwing people. I said

"2b may be able to throw someone with his ULE, but I suspect he'd need enough strength to lay on his hands; I don't think he can blast you from across the room."

It is possible to throw someone by touching them lightly, but not to throw them without touching them from miles away (as far as I know). I have heard of "Masters" who could flip people from a distance, but it turned out they could flip only those people who were their pupils.

What I call "throwing" is causing people to lose their footing so that they hit the mat, whether by WWF methods or by overbalancing them.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 01:26 AM

Thanks, Shanghaiceltic

I wasn't sure Yagyu ryu was still in existence, and all I know about the techniques are from the way they have been adapted to Aikido (which does use boken and staff as well as empty hands).

F'rinstance the shiho-nage technique is done by grasping the opponent's wrist with both hands, moving it across his body as you would thrust with a sword, then pivoting and bringing his hands over your head, and cutting down as you would with a sword.

Well, you have to see it.

I only got to brown belt, but the more I talk about it here the more I miss it.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 08:44 AM

Shanghaiceltic, thank you for posting the information about kenjutsu and weapons training - very interesting! I'm wondering if you know whether or not Jiu Jitsu is the original Japanese martial art? My kids picked up that idea at the dojo, and I always wondered about it as many traditions (not just martial arts) put out the claim that theirs is the "original".

Jiu Jitsu does seem to be an all-inclusive discipline, focusing on throws and holds (like Judo), kicks, blocks and punches (like Karate), kata, and weapons training in the higher grades. Creativity is encouraged - my kids were required to make up their own kata for the brown belt grading (Youth level) and they did enjoy that. They were taught that never were these techniques to be used for anything but defence, and not the share them with friends outside the dojo. (It was like pulling teeth to get them to teach me what they were learning - I had to convince them the rule didn't apply to She Who Pays the Bills.)

Even the youngest white belts were introduced to short meditations before and after class, including giving thanks for the dojo, for the instructors and each other, and even for the parents who provided transportation and paid their fees. I liked that! :-) My kids had a wonderful sensei.

Clint, in my understanding chi is not magical at all, but a natural force, subtle and invisible - like gravity. It seems incomprehensible and "paranormal" to the Western mind only because Science has yet to study and explain it adequately, to develop a scientific vernacular to refer to it. In the East, however, it's a different story. People have been raised with an understanding of chi - how to manage and direct it to one's advantage - for millenia. For example, the Qigong article I posted states that 200 million Chinese rely on energetic healing techniques like Qigong and acupuncture for medical purposes today.

As a fist step however I would recommend skipping the martial side and going for Qi Gung. A good bit of deep breathing and Qi (Chi) stengthening will help to rid you of the need to fight in the first place :-)

I just wanted to point out that while Qigong may not have been "what the doctor ordered" for Two Bears, it does seem to work just wonderfully to relieve anger and stress in my case. Gotta learn to manage that chi! (or manage that mana, to use the Hawaiian word for chi).

Ok I've said enough here .... Ent fu!

:-)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:40 AM

It is possible to throw someone by touching them lightly, but not to throw them without touching them from miles away (as far as I know). I have heard of "Masters" who could flip people from a distance, but it turned out they could flip only those people who were their pupils.

Clint

I know a Lin Kong Jing qigong master Sifu Richard Mooney who is known to knock down two lines of 6 people (total of 12 people) from across the room without touching them.

His teacher Paul Dong once knocked down a line of 30 people on the other side of a sheet of plywood.

I would much rather throw energy 2000 miles for healing.

Clint, in my understanding chi is not magical at all, but a natural force, subtle and invisible - like gravity. It seems incomprehensible and "paranormal" to the Western mind only because

Daylia: You are absolutely correct. Ch'i, mana, ikaki, manitou, prana, nuwati, Ki, and many other names for it is neither magical or paranormal.

As a fist step however I would recommend skipping the martial side and going for Qi Gung. A good bit of deep breathing and Qi (Chi) stengthening will help to rid you of the need to fight in the first place :-)

Dave the gnome posted that if memory serves, and I replied with something like "I wish that was correct"

The explanation is that as a child in school, and the abuse I received at home; the scool principal and others in the schoos system dictated that I be trained in the martial arts "So that young man can learn some self control and self discipline.

All the martial arts did for me was turn an SOB into a dangerous SOB, and I left three of my school teachers lying in the floor.

Deep breathing and Qi development is a tremendous help; but it is NOT a panacea.

People need to receive proper training, and I certainly did not. I was taught how to break things and hurt people, and I did that in spades.

After Tsang took me under his wing, and taught me Qigong the right way was I able to tame the monster within. One day I just got it.

"My thoughts and emotions affect the world around me. Every day I wake up; I am given the choice to be a positive influence or a negative influence" then I started choosing to be a positive influence.

I just did not want people falling into the trap of thinking deep breathing and developing ULE to be an instant cure.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:46 AM

Sorry I am not able to comment on the origins of jiu jutsu as I have never studied it but I do agree it seems to combine teachings of both armed and unarmed combat.

What kendo has taught me is a modicum of patience which I am trying to apply in re-learning music and how to play the whistle properly.

I know I have to practice and work at exercises in order to make those darned fingers do what I want them to do, in order, in time and without stuffing up. And at the same time I am trying to learn tunes and make them work naturally and I want to sometimes rush in and try to use some of the techniques for ornamentation. Then I get the big step backwards as I once again stuff up. then it is time again to break it down to slower more practiced movement again and try and go up another notch.

I am amaized by the coordination foe example that box players exhibit. Push, pull, play with both hands at the same time. In fact watching anyone use two hands plus coordination to make any instrument look simple to play makes me admire the sheer practice and time put in. The more economical and simple it looks the harder I know they have worked. Just like good martial artists.

And I guess that just like good martial artists a good player gets that buzz inside from making a difficult passage of music sound natural and free flowing and moreover they add their own stlye and signature to the music. And when they have done it they still think 'could I have done better'

An old Japanese saying was 'After the battle retye the helmet'

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:11 AM

Yes, NOT DURING it...

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:17 PM

I wish I hadn't mentioned chi, now. I found this quote from someone whose name I've lost, but it's pretty much what I think.

"I believe the the linguistic term "Qi" is a culturaly entrenched word and too many people in the west (and elsewere) try to define it using our paradigms. I think the word is referring to a host of different... mechanisms."

2b, I'd rather throw healing energy than people too, but I'm talking about what's possible, not what's desirable. Richard Mooney seems able to throw his own pupils, as shown in his own tapes, but I have read reports from those who attended his seminars that aren't so glowing. I will search farther, however.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 02:29 PM

Shanghaiceltic, ditto about the patience required to subjugate a penny whistle (or any other unfamiliar instrument).   :-)   All the best!

I think the word is referring to a host of different... mechanisms."

Hmm - I understand chi as the energy that powers that host of different mechanisms. Like the gas that runs your car, powering all it's different mechanisms - not to be confused with the mechanisms themselves.

I believe the the linguistic term "Qi" is a culturaly entrenched word and too many people in the west (and elsewere) try to define it using our paradigms ... I'd rather throw healing energy than people too, but I'm talking about what's possible, not what's desirable

Physical demonstrations and "anecdotal evidence" of what is humanly possible when certain level(s) of ability to manage and direct chi are achieved are valuable, I suppose. Without them there'd be no motivation or reason to carry out any scientific research in the first place. Yet other people's anecdotes; even seemingly "miraculous" but incomprehensible physical demonstrations of "chi in action" are certainly no substitute for scientific investigation / explanation (at least to the Western-trained mind)

This is why achieving scientific validation and understanding of life-force energy and of the many diverse Eastern traditions based on it would be beneficial, imo - especially in the fields of medicine, public health and education.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 05:02 PM

"Hmm - I understand chi as the energy that powers that host of different mechanisms. Like the gas that runs your car, powering all it's different mechanisms - not to be confused with the mechanisms themselves"

It seems to me that would mean that chi powers the physical techniques too, the muscular strength, the timing, the speed and all that, which doesn't help me understand where the non-muscular strength comes from, or how to use it.

I *can* use it, sometimes at least, and I don't really need to know how it works, but I'm curious.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 08:05 PM

Yes, it's the same energy that powers both physical and non-physical actions - just at different "voltages" so to speak. Mental life-force energy is the power that drives and is generated by the intellect (reasoning, imagination, creative visualization). According to ancient Hawaiian understanding, mental life-force energy is many times more powerful than basic physical life-force energy (the energy produced by eating, drinking, breathing etc which drives the muscles / physical body). For example, say physical chi = 100 volts - then mental chi = 1000 volts or more.

Using a well-trained, totally focused mind and will (focusing intent or visualizing), martial artists and energetic healers etc direct the body's basic physical chi toward their specific goal. Through that mental action, they ramp the physical body's basic chi up to the level of mental life-force energy, which is many times more powerful. This is how the masters of the martial arts and Eastern healing modalities are able to accomplish their outstanding physical feats - by training the mind and the will to direct their physical chi toward the purpose at hand, thus "ramping" the physical chi up to the level of mental chi.

At least, that's my understanding to date.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 08:10 PM

Human adult muscles do not normally work at 100% of capability for at least 2 good reasons - in extreme circumstances, normal people have lifted cars off injured people, and performed such similar feats.

1) muscles keep something in reserve to extend endurance

2) if you have ever experienced a child - you will understand what I mean when I say 'GENTLY!'.... :-) we learn socially to restrain ourselves.

3) BTW, Adrenilin is a powerful muscle stimulant - fight or flight.


Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 08:19 AM

Good point about the "super-human" effects of adrenalin, Robin. It's interesting that there is a distinction made in Qigong between physical chi (which drives the muscles), emotional chi (which powers the heart, nerves and organs) and mental chi (which powers the mind). The fight or flight response could be an example of how basic physical chi can be ramped up to the level of "emotional chi" by experiencing intense emotional shock or life-and-death situation, to apply this Qigong paradigm.

Clint, you might be interested in this discussion The Existence of Chi/Qi? I found on a martial arts forum. To whet your appetite a little:

"According to modern physics, there are four fundamental forces. There is gravitation, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force. Could there be a force that physicists know nothing about (chi) or is chi one of the fundamental forces in disguise. Do people believe that this form of energy exists? Can anyone produce research that supports the existance of chi?"

"The only way to "prove" chi exists, just like the only to "prove" that "God" exists is by direct, firsthand experience. There is a science to these experiences, obviously, but because it isn't completely materialistic and reductionist, many of the "hard" scientists will give you giggles. But, to be frank, these individuals have not gone through the injunctions in question themselves and so they aren't exactly "peers" in this particular regard. It would be like me laughing at a biologist's theories when I haven't even bothered to look through the miscroscope and observe the "evidence" myself."

"The scientific method, in terms of the truth claims that it seeks, is perfectly capable of acquiring knowledge concerning ch'i and the like. I pointed above what the scientific method entails: an injunction, datum, and peer evaluation. Period. Anyone that adds anything else to that and claims that you *have* to do this to be doing science is belching a lot of hot air ... I'm reminded of the EEG studies concerning the brainwaves of meditators, of cross-cultural anthropological/sociological studies concerning the "perennial philosophy" and overall human development/experience, and I even once recall seeing some special on Kung Fu on Discovery n which a machine was hooked up to a certain martial artist and it would show his image "light up" whenever he used "ch'i".

So, to think science has nothing to add concerning this issue is far from accurate"

In fact, it seems evident to me that there are a lot of things that eastern and indigenous medicine and healing methods seem to address that western medicine doesn't, and there are a lot of phenomenom that modern science hasn't been able to fully explain ... However, what I do get tired of is stuff like the Chi master who does things like "throwing" a willing student without touching them physically, and then goes on to use the arguement that "Some things western physics will never understand" because they want us to believe that what they are doing is "beyond the physical." This is crap. If the effects are physical, such as the person is being projected accross the room, then these physical effects should be measureable somehow, in a consistant fashion. Even if Modern Science is far behind ancient eastern thought in regards to the subject, that doesn't mean that we should take physical effects on "faith alone ... I believe in Chi, and I believe that it has been proven, and that we are learning more and more about it every day. Yet, I get tired of "Chi clowns" who claim superhuman powers from Chi, yet refuse to even suggest that there could ever be any physical evidence to back their claims."

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 08:05 AM

2b, I'd rather throw healing energy than people too, but I'm talking about what's possible, not what's desirable. Richard Mooney seems able to throw his own pupils, as shown in his own tapes, but I have read reports from those who attended his seminars that aren't so glowing. I will search farther, however.

What do you mean by that?

I know throwing healing energy is possible.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 09:28 AM

I *can* use it, sometimes at least, and I don't really need to know how it works, but I'm curious.
clint

Using a well-trained, totally focused mind and will . . .
daylia

Clint, you're not going to find what you're looking for in this crowd. Good luck elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 09:43 AM

Actually, I don't see that the type of "answers" needed to satisfy Clint have been furnished by ANY crowd, scientific or otherwise.

Yet.

Did you have a more viable explanation, GUEST? Or could you perhaps link us to some credible scientific research / information we haven't found yet then?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:14 PM

2b:

"What do you mean by that?
I know throwing healing energy is possible."

I meant that I wan't arguing with you about healing energy.

I was talking about moving physical objects, in this case people, without touching them, as Sifu Mooney claims to do. I agree with you that healing is generally more worthy than knocking people off their feet, but that wasn't my topic. That's all.

*daylia*:

"Actually, I don't see that the type of "answers" needed to satisfy Clint have been furnished by ANY crowd, scientific or otherwise.

That's exactly right. That's why I said "Chi, whatever it is," and got myself -- & y'all --into all this.

There may not be any answers. I don't think anyone can explain, scientifically or otherwise, how to write a good song. (Yes, I know people don't agree on what the good songs or stories are, but there is some general agreement. And we all know good songs & stories exist.)

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,rich mooney
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 06:18 AM

love is stronger than hate.

love creates more love, hate consumes itself totally.

healing energy travels better than hateful energy.

hate and anger destroy your mind and body.

love and caring ensures your life, body and soul will have a peaceful
afterlife. hell is what you make it. so is heaven.

I used to engage in energetic work from martial arts perspective, now I know to love my enemy and welcome him. if he is not ready to receive my freindship and caring, he will be the receipient of his own malice. Ueshiba understood this very plainly and quite well.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 09:18 AM

rich mooney, you're not after all my money are you???   ;-)

thanks for dropping the name Morehei Ueshiba 1883-1969. I had no idea who you were referring to - a google search revealed he was the founder of Aikido, which tranlates as The Art of Peace.

Apparently Sensei Ueshiba transformed his philosophy of the martial arts after three visions convinced him that the Way of the Warrior is the Way of Peace.

Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. Even as an old man of eighty, he could disarm any foe, down any number of attackers, and pin an opponent with a single finger. Although invincible as a warrior, he was above all a man of peace who detested fighting, war, and any kind of violence ... Throughout his life, however, Morihei was sorely troubled by the contention and strife that plagued his world: his father's battles with corrupt politicans and their hired goons, the devastation of war, and the brutality of his country's military leaders.

Morihei was on a spiritual quest and was transformed by three visions ... "Around two o'clock in the morning as I was performing ritual purification, I suddenly forgot every martial art technique I ever learned. All of the techniques handed down from my teachers appeared completely anew. Now they were vehicles for the cultivation of life, knowledge, virtue, and good sense, not devices to throw and pin people."

The third vision was in 1942, during the worst of the fighting of World War II and in one of the darkest periods of human history. Morihei had a vision of the Great Spirit of Peace, a path that could lead to the elimination of all strife and the reconciliation of humankind. "The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood as a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek competition are making a grave mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst sin a human being can commit. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love." Morihei secluded himself in the country and devoted every minute of his life thereafter to refining and spreading Aikido, the Art of Peace.

Very interesting is the story of how he used "mental chi" to avoid the bullets from a firing squad of 16 men (at the first link). One, two, three. The six revolvers fired at the same time and a cloud of dust whirled around us. Then, suddenly, one of the six marksmen was flying through the air! What had happened? Before we could figure it out, Sensei was standing behind the six men, laughing into his beard ... This far I could remember clearly, but the next stage, where Sensei had moved the distance of 25 meters and thrown one of the six marksmen, I simply could not understand. I couldn't find any explanation for other than "God techniques." Yet, when he was challenged by a true gun master, he refused to stand before the pistol ... I watched carefully, and a bit anxiously, as Sensei sat down in seiza at the far end of the dojo while Mr. Sato took distance and aimed. And then just as he was on the verge of pulling the trigger, Sensei dropped his head in recognition and said, "Wait! Your bullet will hit me! Your thoughts are undistorted, and clearly you want to hit me. From the beginning you've known that you are going to hit your target. I cannot avoid the gun of such a man, you are a true master!"

Well, if these stories are to be trusted, it's not so crazy to think that chi is directed, or "mastered" through disciplined mental focus and a highly trained will. That is exactly how one trains to direct life-force energy for healing the body as well.

But most interesting of all are the 114 quotes from Ueshiba's talks and writings, at the link "The Art of Peace"...

The Art of Peace begins with you. Work on yourself and your appointed task in the Art of Peace. Everyone has a spirit that can be refined, a body that can be trained in some manner, a suitable path to follow. You are here for no other purpose than to realize your inner divinity and manifest your innate enlightenment. Foster peace in your own life and then apply the Art to all that you encounter

I especially liked his references to Life-Force Energy as the "Breath of Life" ... The Art of Peace functions everywhere on earth, in realms ranging from the vastness of space down to the tiniest plants and animals. The life force is all-pervasive and its strength boundless. The Art of Peace allows us to percieve and tap into that tremendous reserve of universal energy ... Now and again, it is necessary to seclude yourself among deep mountains and hidden valleys to restore your link to the source of life. Breathe in and let yourself soar to the ends of the universe; breathe out and bring the cosmos back inside. Next, breathe up all fecundity and vibrancy of the earth. Finally, blend the breath of heaven and the breath of earth with your own, becoming the Breath of Life itself ...

All the priciples of heaven and earth are living inside you. Life itself is the truth, and this will never change. Everything in heaven and earth breathes. Breath is the thread that ties creation together. When the myriad variations in the universal breath can be sensed, the individual techniques of the Art of Peace are born.

Consider the ebb and flow of the tide. When waves come to strike the shore, they crest and fall, creating a sound. Your breath should follow the same pattern, absorbing the entire universe in your belly with each inhalation. Know that we all have access to four treasures: the energy of the sun and moon, the breath of heaven, the breath of earth, and the ebb and flow of the tide.

When he speaks of "absorbing the entire universe in your belly with each inhalation?, he is referring to the technique of building up a surcharge of chi in the tan tiens - the largest of the eight chi vessels, located just below the navel. Focusing on the tan tien is a major part of Qigong.

NOTE: Here's an easy Qigong technique to try if you like: as you are falling asleep, rub your lower belly gently in a circular motion, 30 times clockwise then 30 times counter-clockwise. This not only produces health benefits by massaging all the inner organs, but the friction with your hand builds up chi in the tan tien as well. It's soothing, relaxing, warmly energizing ... and puts me right to sleep too.   :-)

The reason I find Ueshiba's references to the Breath of Life so exciting is because it's EXACTLY the same as Huna - the ancient Hawaiian technique of managing and directing mana (chi) through deep breathing and emotional/mental focus/visualization. The Hawaiian word for the Breath of Life is Ha ... as in "Aloha" (meaning "go with the Breath of Life" and also I love you, hello, goodbye etc).

The basic technique in Huna is the Ha Rite, during which one builds up a surcharge of mana between the hands through deep breathing while "charging" that mana with one's mental/emotional intent (ie healing purpose). Then one sends the intent and energy surcharge to the healee's (or one's own, if working on oneself) "higher power". Huna is the easiest, most powerfully effective energetic healing modality I've encountered to date - oohhh, I could tell you stories and stories and STORIES about how Huna has helped me, and my friends and family, about the "miracles" I've seen take place both under my hands and hundreds of miles away using the Ha Rite ... but they'd all be only anecdotes. I'm sure they'd invite only ridicule, disbelief, flaming ... "troll bait" for sure. *sigh*

That's why I think scientific investigation, verification and explanation of chi and techniques like Huna are just what the doctor ordered for the health of the whole planet today. So thanks for the input, rich mooney - I've learned alot today already, and it's only 9 am!

But I do know this - doing a Ha rite for those 'Cats and GUESTS who insult and flame me has proven to be a sure cure for anger, and therefore for "verbal violence". It's quite impossible to do a Ha rite for someone, visualizing them perfectly happy, healthy, enjoying everything they need and desire in life - and stay angry at them.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:22 AM

Whoever wrote Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. seems not to have learned the lesson! In my opinion to state a dissputable fact as absolute is simply inviting disagreement.

The principle tennat of Aikido, as far as I am aware, is to avoid confrontation whenever possible. I do not believe Ueshiba would have approved such a statement and it seems quite sad that in the mere 35 years since his death his teachings can have become so disstorted.

Never mind eh. At least the energy expounded producing the article has not been wasted. It made me laugh at least:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:59 AM

"...doing a Ha rite for those 'Cats and GUESTS who insult and flame mehas proven to be a sure cure for anger, and therefore for "verbal violence". daylia

I thought about sending you a PM, daylia, but decided that since this is a public forum and there may be people here who are taking large bites of this, I will state my own mind.

My instinct bids me to shy away from people - healers or not; frankly, especially healers - who show such lack of insight. In my judgment Two-Bears exhibits the same blindness. The one thing that really frightens me in this world is people who are so sure of their 'rightness'. I've come to the place where I feel that asking the right questions is more important than the 'right' answers.


love insight

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:29 PM

Ebbie,

You'll also note, from her statement "It's quite impossible to do a Ha rite for someone, visualizing them perfectly happy, healthy, enjoying everything they need and desire in life - and stay angry at them" that she feels perfectly entitled to "visit" her brand of spirituality, flakey or not, on others, whether they request it or not. She keeps doing that to people, right after a messy blow-up. Like she can fix US even if SHE was the perpetrator who got out of control. Good trick, eh? Quite an "enlightened" view of the world (in the postmodern deprecatory sense, of course).

Subject: New Age Proselytization
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 01:05 PM

I'm also concerned that there is a signficant amount of New Age stuff peppered into threads around Mudcat. As someone often and sometimes brutally accused of Christian proselytizing in the past-- more usually flamed for the sake of trolling than for the real mistakes I made-- it strikes me as as deeply unfair that now that mention of one's Christian faith has become non-PC-targetable, others' beliefs are so casually and persistently glorified.

More and more I feel like my good friend BillD-- I'd rather not have it in my face. And it is in my face, here, every day. I think this is the first time I have objected to it publicly-- I guess after several years here my tolerance is slipping.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 01:35 PM

I understand your concerns, Ebbie. Perhaps it would have been better to explain more about doing a Ha rite.

When doing a Ha rite for another person, the energy is sent to what the Hawaiians called the person's 'Aumakua - their "spiritual Self", "guardian angel" or "higher power". The mana is sent as a gift of love and gratitude, with the clear intent that it be used only according to the person's free will, for whatever purpose or in whatever manner serves the person's greatest benefit.

This way, the basic spiritual requirements governing any successful "prayer action" - the laws of non-interference or free will - are met. Ha Rites do not work otherwise. Plus, by sending the energy to the person's Spiritual Self, it's guaranteed to used in the person's best interests - which of course, I cannot possibly know (even about myself sometimes!).

I've often suspected that the person's 'Aumakua sends a portion of the energy gift right back to me as well. That's why I cannot do even a 1-minute Ha rite without receiving tangible benefits of some kind myself. I LOVE Huna! :-)

The only exception to this is when the person has requested something specifically (ie energy to help with a migraine, to help with a job interview etc). In that case, I create a "prayer picture" that visualizes their stated need or desire as already met (ie seeing the person completely well and happy and free of the headache, or leaving the successful interview completely confident and pleased etc). I focus on that intent while I'm doing the deep breathing to generate the surcharge of chi or mana.

Yet even in these cases, when I send the energy to the person's 'Aumakua I always state that it be used for the stated purpose, or if that is not in the person's interests then any other purpose which does serve the person's greatest good, according to their own free will.

Hope this clears things up a little.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 01:46 PM

Dave, thanks for your interesting insight about "verbal violence" and inviting confrontation. I'm glad the article brightened your day - I know enjoyed it!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 01:49 PM

Susan, what works for me is that when someone talks about any belief system, I read it as "This is me, this is what I do," no matter how they meant it. The problem is - or CAN be - concerned with more general things than faith.

There's been a growing tendency to convince other people to believe the same things they do about EVERYTHING. "You don't like the music I do, something's wrong with you," "You don't like the same politician I do, something's wrong with you," "You don't like topics at Mudcat, ways of discussing things, cookies or no cookies, there's something wrong with you." The discussions all end up being about what's wrong with people and what they say, and the topic is buried in the dust. They usually end up being debates about who's right and who's wrong.

I don't have a problem with anybody talking about what they believe. It's the "convincing" part that's annoying to me. Beliefs are part of who people are. The problem is, when you or I start feeling like we're being beaten over the head with any belief, we're either going to become mad (to whatever degree) or bored. Either way, we stop listening.

"Doing a Ha rite for those 'Cats and GUESTS who insult and flame me" is pretty much the same as "I'm going to pray to Jesus to save all of you who insult and flame me." These things MIGHT be meant kindly, but they rarely come off that way to somebody who already doesn't like what you have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 02:07 PM

This is true, Jeri. It certainly is not my intent to beat anyone over the head with anything. I'd have happily let the thread die long ago, but responding to people and researching their comments has brought me much enjoyment plus valuable new insights about chi, about Huna, and the martial arts - all of which rank high on my "passionate interests" list these days.   

Certainly not everyone shares these interests - so please, if people find these ideas and words so offensive just let the thread die ok? Ent fu!

Thanking you all once again for your input here,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 02:57 PM

Certainly not everyone shares these interests - so please, if people find these ideas and words so offensive just let the thread die ok? Ent fu!

Thanking you all once again for your input here,

daylia

Especially since it was started by daylia as an attack thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 03:23 PM

Some of that stuff about Morihei Ueshiba is preposterous.

"Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. Even as an old man of eighty, he could disarm any foe, down any number of attackers, and pin an opponent with a single finger."

He was still doing Aikido at 80, all right, and doing it well. Isn't that enough?

And the firing-squad story has grown since I first heard it. What I heard is that an enemy officer tried to shoot him, and O-Sensei was able to see where & when he was going to shoot and evade.

This has grown into a story that he could dodge bullets, and now into the firing squad and God-techniques. What he did is called anticipation; it was difficult to avoid telegraphing your punches when facing Ueshiba. I have read a of a cop who did the same thing. when faced with an armed criminal. It's a high level of skill, but not God. And probably not to be depended upon.

Inexperienced shooters, and some experienced hip shooters sometimes even punch the gun forward as they fire and a good boxer can slip a punch, which would make him hard to shoot at close range.

Ueshiba was also a showman, and good at psyching people out. He'd sit on a high stool with his feet off the floor and extend his hand and have you push on it; he'd hold you off with that hand you couldn't tip the stool over. That's one of those "chi" tricks. I just went downstairs and tried it with a 160+ lb person leaning on my hand and didn't get pushed of the stool or tipped over. He could do vastly better things than that, things that require real ability, but the stool trick is showy, and got into stories. The Aikido equivalent of a sound bite.

The things he could really do were wonderful enough; the silly miracle stories only cheapen his reputation.

clint