BS: David Irving goes to prison.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 06:34 PM

That was 100 BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 06:48 PM

Sorry Steve that was a total Freudian slip on my part I did it and I apologise, it was unintentional.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 07:02 PM

Giok's Scottish. They wear Freudian slips under their kilts.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 07:32 PM

well if you aren't frightened of Nazis, Peter - maybe YOU missed something.

and perhaps I'm a wee little soul compared to your lofty ideals of freedom - but my Dad spent five years in a tank sorting out the mess caused by the last load of people who thought that nazis are a phenomena that could be tolerated. And that made him one of the lucky ones, cos a hell of a lot of really nice people got killed - just sorting out the shit that happens when people pretend that nazism is an essential part of the spectrum of opinions that needs representation - like life is some sort of college debate.

This is the real world and look what happened the last time those mad dogs got loose. And any bugger who is confident that the correct opinions will win the day is a stupid bugger in my book, and obviously has never read a newspaper.

what's the next thing.... freedom of polio bacteria to flourish and set up their own communities? Freedom of shit to float in the water supply.....

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 07:47 PM

what's the next thing.... freedom of polio bacteria to flourish and set up their own communities? Freedom of shit to float in the water supply.....

Well they can't be compared to the human situation. Although at times it feels like they can...

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 07:48 PM

"shit that happens when people pretend that nazism is an essential part of the spectrum of opinions that needs representation"

Just wanted to ensure that that gets read.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 09:14 PM

Peace - it must never be forgotten, neither must the consequences, or we will go thru it all again.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 03:20 AM

I think the problem with Nazism is this.

It doesn't need to win arguments. When it gets any kind of presence - not even a significant presence in democratic election terms -it causes a strange sort of trouble.

It gives people an excuse to behave badly. And once it starts, then people who never even knew they wanted to behave badly locate that zeitgeist within themselves. Sudddenly all the things like sadism and racial hatred, that are probably lurking deep within us all - they get a chance to come to the surface.

its just really f---ing bad stuff, and presents a unique threat human society at our present stage of development.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 04:09 AM

I believe it was the philosopher George Santayana who said.........

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

I am also reminded of the words of Neville Chamberlain when he came back from Munich after talks with Adolf Hitler, and securing the 1938 Munich agreement later described as a policy of appeasement.
He said something to the effect that he had in his hand a piece of paper signed by Herr Hitler, guaranteeing peace in out time.

Oh how we laughed!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST,stevenrailing
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 05:05 AM

yes but equally we could say the purge of gulags should not be repeated? Of course, but would we, on here, really agree to imprisoning a man who said the purge of gulags never occured?

Peace, understood, my apologies in turn for my rather sharp response.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 05:30 AM

Good point Steve, but it is possible for people to delude themselves about the Gulags, however unreasonable that might seem. (I don't think it is reasonable either). However, it is barely credible that any adult can have failed to receive some information about the Holocaust. There simply is not any excuse for pretending that it did not happen. The other issue, is the fact that although the Stalinist agenda has effectively gone the way of the dodo, the Nazi ideal is very much alive and kicking (and literally handing out kickings) in many parts of Europe.
I would say that what I am debating with you and Peter K, is whether we can draw a line between freedom of speech and the abuse of it to to try to make blatant untruths acceptable. It is not an easy one to call. I am leaning towards those who wish to draw a line.
To the credit of Peter and yourself, you wish to guarantee absolute freedom of speech to even those, whom you detest. That is fair enough. Now we are on the thorny issue of whether the absolute right to free speech also guarantees the absolute right to scream lies. The debate is still open.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 05:51 AM

are you sure it wasn't a Fredian slip Giok? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Peace
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 10:28 AM

No problem, steve. BTW, Giok is a really good guy.

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

The best 'response I ever hear to that line: "History repeats itself because historians repeat each other."

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 12:44 PM

equally we could say the purge of gulags should not be repeated? Of course, but would we, on here, really agree to imprisoning a man who said the purge of gulags never occured? (stevenrailing)

Others have made similar points, just as wrong in my eyes.

This argumentation disregards the context. If one looks at this and similar laws one sees that they tend be passed in the countries in which such crimes have happened and in which the survivors are still haunted by the worst of memories.

Guess which is the only country in the world in which denying the genocide of the Tutsi is forbidden by law. Rwanda, of course.

Such laws in those countries that have seen the atrocities and have still survivors make more sense than in unrelated countries for two reasons: (1) To prevent the events happening again and (2) to protect the feelings of the survivors.

If someone in Germany would deny that the arrival of the Whites in America has led to a decline of the indigenous populations of a genocidal dimension, he would be considered an idiot but not put in jail. Neither a repetition in Germany nor a slight of the survivors' feelings is to be feared.

To those living in countries in which the holocaust did not happen, this may be just another of many genocides. I even can see that when I try to view it from your point. But for us it feels completely different. It was the genocide of/by our fathers' generation.

In fifty years from now, we can scrap that law. Until then it will stay.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST,stevenrailing
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:45 AM

In fifty years from now, we can scrap that law. Until then it will stay.

You see, this remark is the type that baffles me. No offence.

Why fifty years? Why set a time-span for this unique law? Out of respect for that generation? Is that how laws are determined? That same generation fought for freedom, and yet in their defence, that freedom has now corroded with recent events, irving included.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 12:10 PM

Why fifty?

Because in fifty years the youngest survivor with a memory of what has happened will be 114 years old.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST,stevenrailing
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 03:40 PM

oh right. thats a very odd way of working a law out.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 04:23 PM

It bears more relevance to actual people than many laws in existence now with no 'sell by' date, which will still exist in many years time steven.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 01:48 PM

thats a very odd way of working a law out (stevenrailing)

In my eyes, it would be odd to make laws without any regard for the context. After the war, we had also a special law passed to integrate the invalids into the work force (and some more war invalid laws). There were lots of people with one limb missing, more than usually in a country. That law too has been adapted later when the situation had changed (i.e. youngest war invalids older than retirement age).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Roughyed
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 02:27 PM

Let's not forget Irving's own commitment to free speech - suing someone for libel when they correctly described him as a Holocaust denier. Hoist by his own petard, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 10:19 AM

The only problem with that law is that it may have the opposite effect to the reason it was made.
You can just immagine, in the depths of the BMP recruitment department, the conversation going something like this.....
" Now then dont get me wrong, it was a war an' like bad things are done. But dont forget winners write the history. And we arnt sure it happend anyway.... oh I know everyone says it did but there are some historins who dont think that it did, and they were forced to shut up! I mean just look at what happend to that David Irvine! He ended up in jail just for saying he was not sure! I mean the bastards arer controlling you. You can't even express your own opinion in your own country any more."

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 10:25 AM

Irving perverted and distorted history to serve a twisted ideology. He will now serve some time in the name of that twisted ideology. However, he is not a martyr except to a few fringe folks, because it's difficult to design a picture frame for hatred, stupidity and ignorance.