Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 11:21 PM

Hi,

Here's what the ballad index has:

Love Has Brought Me to Despair [Laws P25]

DESCRIPTION: The singer hears a girl telling of the grief her false love has left her. She seeks a flower in the meadow to ease her mind; none meet her needs. She makes a bed of flowers, asks for a marble stone on her grave and a turtle dove at her breast, and dies
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1827 (Lyle-Crawfurd1)
KEYWORDS: death separation flowers grief
FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,Ro) Britain(England(Lond,North,South),(Scotland(Aber,Bord)))
REFERENCES (12 citations):
Laws P25, "Love Has Brought Me to Despair"
GreigDuncan6 1170, "In Halifax Town" (1 text, 1 tune)
Lyle-Crawfurd1 43, "Slighted Love" (1 text)
Reeves-Circle 34, "Died of Love" (2 texts)
BroadwoodCarols, pp. 92-95, "Died of Love or A brisk young lad he courted me" (1 short text, 1 tune)
OShaughnessy-Yellowbelly2 52, "There Is an Alehouse" (1 text, 1 tune)
RoudBishop #42, "A Brisk Young Sailor" (1 text, 1 tune)
Brewster 58, "Love Has Brought Me to Despair" (2 texts, 1 tune)
Combs/Wilgus 116, p. 176, "The Auxville Love" (1 text)
JHCox 144, "Love Has Brought Me To Despair" (1 text)
Hubbard, #28, "Love Has Brought Me To Despair" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT 824, LOVDISPR*
Roud #60
RECORDINGS:
Dillard Chandler, "I Wish My Baby Was Born" (on Chandler01, DarkHoll)
Geoff Ling, "Died for Love" (on Voice10)
Dellie Norton, "When I Wore My Apron Low" (on DarkHoll)
Berzilla Wallin, "Love Has Brought Me To Despair" (on OldLove, DarkHoll)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24]
cf. "Tavern in the Town"
NOTES: This song has close ties with "Tavern in the Town," often sharing stanzas and, of course, a similarity of plot. Roud, in fact, lumps them (which seems a bit excessive to me). This may help explain why Laws failed to note either the Combs or the Cox version. - RBW
* * * *

1) They list it as a version of Roud 60-- the Constant Lady broadside is a different ballad -- with a similar theme- but it's clearly different. Ballads based on Constant Lady need a different Roud number.

2) The notes are completely wrong "Tavern in the Town" is usually considered to be "There is a Taven" a composed version of Brisk Young lover" with a chorus borrowed from "Adieu, Adieu (Radoo)." Maybe they meant "Alehouse"?

3) Only Berzilla Wallin's recording is a version of Love Had Brought."

4) Of the 12 citations (I don't have OShaughnessy-Yellowbelly2 52, "There Is an Alehouse"-- can anyone post?) most are versions of Died for Love with one stanza borrowed from Constant Lady. There are dozens of these. Most of the actual versions of "Love has Brought" are not even mentioned.

5) And most importantly-- Even though Belden wrote about it in 1940 (see my last post) they don't even mention "Constant Lady" as the source broadside.

In my opinion- this is a problem,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 04:25 PM

Hi,

I discovered that a version "Oxford Tragedy" was printed in the Polka Song Book, No. 15, London, 1848 p. 517. Steve Roud apparently has a copy. Anyone else have a link or text?

Here's one US version from Hubbard, Ballads and Songs from Utah, 1961. This was taken from his mother who contributed 134 songs and ballads and twenty-nine fragments.

Love Has Brought Me To Despair-- sung by Salley A. Hubbard of Salt Lake City, Sept. 2, 1942. She leaned it when she was a child about 1874 from her aunt, Mrs. Sarah Call, of Willard.

In Halifax town in Hampshire, Yorkshire,
As I walked out to take the air,
A-viewing the fields and valleys all round,
At length I heard a mournful sound.

My father is a noble lord,
Likewise my mother some lady fair,
And I am the only daughter and heir;
True love has brought me to despair.

I wish I was where I might be,
In my love's arms who's oft kissed me,
In my love's arms who's oft kissed me,
How happy, happy I would be![1]

There is a flower, that I've heard say,
It'll cure sad hearts by night and day.
O, that that flower I could but find,
'Twould ease my heart and cure my mind.

Away into the garden she went,
A-gathering flowers was her intent,
A-gathering flowers just as they fell
Until she gathered her apron full.

She chose the green grass for her bed,
A pillow of roses beneath her head.
She laid herself down bur never again spoke;
Poor girl, poor girl, her heart was broke.

1. This stanza is a corruption of the chorus of "My Blue-Eyed Boy."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 07:24 PM

Hi,

The other song/ballad that I believe is ultimately based on the Constant Lady broadside is the more popular "She's Like the Swallow" found in Canada. It also borrows from Died for Love and other related ballads/broadsides.

I'm preparing some notes on the relationship. Comments are welcome,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 11:30 PM

Hi,

Here's the first text collected:

She's like a swallow- sung by John Hunt, Dunville in Placentia Bay, Newfoundland, 1930.

1 She's like the swallow that flies so high [sim, Fair and Tender YL]
She's like the river that never runs dry,
She's like the sunshine on the lee shore.
I love my love and love is no more. [sim. Sharp "I Love my Love"]

2 'Twas out in the garden this fair maid did go, [Stanza 12]
Picking the beautiful prim-e-rose;
The more she plucked the more she pulled
Until she got her whole a-per-on full.

3 It is out of those roses she made a bed, [stanza 15 CL]
A stony pillow for her head.
Now this fair maid she lay down, no word did she say
Until this fair maid's heart was broke.

4 There are a man on yonder hill, [broadside Brisk Young Sailor]
He got a heart as hard as stone.
He have two hearts instead of one.
[How foolish must that girl be             [stanza 17 CL]
For to think I love no other but she.

5 For the world was not meant for one alone, [stanza 17 CL cont'd]
The world was meant for every one.]

* * * *

This is made up of 1 stanza original, 3 stanzas of "Constant Lady" and 1 stanza of Brisk Young Sailor:

12. The Lady round the meadow run,
"And gather'd flowers as they sprung;
Of every sort she there did pull,
Until she got her apron full.

15. The green ground served as a bed,
And flowers, a pillow for her head;
She laid her down, and nothing spoke:
Alas! for love her heart was broke.

There is a man on yonder hill,
He has a heart as hard as steel,
He has two hearts instead of one,
He'll be a rogue when I am gone.

17. "Did she think I so fond could be,
That I could fancy none but she?
Man was not made for one alone;
I took delight to hear her moan."

Clearly it's similar to, or based on, "Constant Lady" and related to Died for Love. There five traditional texts of She's Like A Swallow-- all are longer. The first stanza is unique but parts of it are found in tradition- line 1. Come All You Fair and Tender Ladies and line 4. I Love my Love - Sharp EFSSA.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 09:46 AM

Hi,

Here are the second part of my opening notes on 7H. She's like a Swallow, which is a brief analysis of the important Karpeles version collected in NL in 1930:

The first stanza has been used as a chorus. It has a unusual jump from 3rd person narrative to first person narrative in the last line:

1 She's like the swallow that flies so high [3rd person narrative]
She's like the river that never runs dry,
She's like the sunshine on the lee shore.
I love my love and love is no more. [1st person narrative]

After the shift to 1st person in the last line, the 2nd stanza begins in 3rd person: "'Twas out in the garden this fair maid did go." This obvious corruption is mitigated by a shift to 3rd person for the last line:

1. She's like the swallow that flies so high,
She's like the river that never runs dry.
She's like the sunshine all on the lee shore,
She loves her love but she'll love no more.

Karpeles changed the text she collected when it was first published in 1934. She eliminated the 4th stanza derived from Brisk Young Sailor (also collected by Sharp in Cambridgeshire) which was corrupt being only three lines:

4 There are a man on yonder hill,
He got a heart as hard as stone.
He have two hearts instead of one,
. . . . .

and the 5th stanza with a corrupt last line which she probably didn't recognize as stanza 17 of "Constant Lady." Here's how Karpeles 5th stanza should appear:

5 How foolish must that girl be   
For to think I love no other but she.
For the world was not meant for one alone,
The world was meant for every one.

She then repeated the first stanza. Here's the result[], after eliminating the 4th and 5th stanza, which she published in 1934 (reprinted in 1971):

1 She's like the swallow that flies so high,
She's like the river that never runs dry,
She's like the sunshine on the lee shore,
I love my love and love is no more.

2 'Twas out in the garden this fair maid did go
Picking the beautiful prim-e-rose;
The more she plucked the more she pulled
Until she got her a-per-on full

3 It is out of those roses she made a bed,
A stony pillow for her head,
She laid her down, no word did say
Until this fair maid's heart did break.

4 She's like the swallow that flies so high,
She's like the river that never runs dry,
She's like the sunshine on the lee shore,
I love my love and love is no more.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 10:44 AM

Hi,

After checking it appears Karpeles 4th stanza of "She's like a swallow" sung by John Hunt, Dunville in Placentia Bay, Newfoundland, 1930 is also part of "Love has Brought Me."

It's the 5th stanza of False Lovyer (Brought Me to Despair) as sung by James Punt of East Horndon, Essex on 23 April, 1904. Tune noted by R. Vaughan Williams.

I. Her father bin a noble knight,
Her mother bin, a lady bright:
I bin, an only child of her
False lovyer brought me to despair.

II. There is a flower some people say,
Will give ease by night and day;
But if I could that flower find
'Twould ease my heart and cheer my mind."

III. Down in the meadows then she run,
To gather flowers as they sprung:
But of every sar[1] she plucked,
she pulled until she gained her apron full.

IV. Then unto her father's house she run,
Told them over one by one,
But (of) all the flowers she could not find
Would ease her heart and cheer her mind.

V. O yonder he stands on yonder hill,
He's got a heart as hard as steel,
He's gained two hearts in the room of one
And he'll be a true lover when I am gone.

1. The beginning of this line is confused and the MS is hard to read- possible "sar" could be "flower". Also could be "sat."

* * * *

This shows that Karpeles stanza 4 has become part of the tradition of "Constant Lady" giving a stronger case for the "She's Like a Swallow" ballad being derived mainly from it.

It's curious to note that in the JFSS 1906 (see: google Books online) this stanza is attributed to Mr. Broomfield, also of Essex, who sang a version. When if you look at the MS it was James punt only that sang this stanza:

V. O yonder he stands on yonder hill,
He's got a heart as hard as steel,
He's gained two hearts in the room of one
And he'll be a true lover when I am gone.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 10:53 AM

As a bonus I just figured out the text to Punt's stanza III, and propery organized the lines-- here it is corrected:

III. Down in the meadows then she run,
To gather flowers as they sprung:
But of every sort she plucked, she pulled,
Until she gained her apron full.

Another mystery brought about by Vaughan Williams handwriting solved :)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:39 PM

You're going to need a very powerful computer program to sort out this tangled mess.

I use a simple stanza marking system A, B, C etc. and it still looks chaotic using this when I've got it all down on paper.

The situation c1800 is complex enough, but then start adding all the British variants in c1900, and then the American .....Aaaaaaaaaaargh!

Good luck if you can find any further subvariants in 60.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 10:00 PM

Hi Steve,

I appreciate all you've done for me and the broadsides and versions you've shared so generously with me and in this thread which hopefully will be used by others.

With "Died for love" there's also a lot of sharing :) Since you know Steve Roud and he is a very bright guy as well- perhaps a definition of what a Roud number is might help. There's no written definition of what Roud 60 is and what ballads or songs it includes and why it includes them. Even the additional Roud numbers which have helped, do not seem to be understood. [At least the Traditional Ballad Index has been way off- calling Roud 18830 Beam of Oak and then listing versions of Cruel Father/Renwick's "Oh Willie." Apparently they didn't understand that it was Rambling Boy-- or is it? Without someone saying what it is - who knows] This is the problem with shared texts and I don't think shared stanzas is the only criteria to be considered when grouping ballads.

The general lack of understanding of the basic underlying broadsides seems to have been the downfall of many but thanks to you maybe some light will be shed.

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 01:38 PM

I'm sure some light will be shed with your diligence and help, but Steve is just as confused as the rest of us.

As per request my uncle's version of 18828.

Recorded 19th May 1967 from Harold Sykes of Hull aged 40. He could not remember where he picked it up but it must have been either in the Royal Navy just after the war or the Royal Airforce some time after. He was a great favourite in the Sods' operas.

A man returning home one night
Once found his house without a light.
He went upstairs to go to bed
When a sudden thought came to his head.

He went into his daughter's room,
And found her hanging from a beam.
He took his knife and cut her down,
And on her breast these words he found.

Oh, Lord, I wish my babe was born,
And all my troubles they were gone,
So dig my grave and dig it deep
And place white lilies at my feet.

My love was for a sailor boy,
Who sailed upon the ocean blue,
So if you find one good and true
Don't change an old love for a new.

They dug her grave and dug it deep,
And placed white lilies at her feet,
And at her head a turtle dove,
To prove that she had died for love.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 08:06 PM

TY Steve,

Another to add to the long number of texts (over 200) which I just finished sorting out!!! I'm understanding his 4th stanza source after looking at "Blue Eyed Boy" also known as "Sailor Boy"- see Kidson's title.

I've finished some of the related versions that are different ballads:

Love Has Left me to Despair: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7b-love-has-brought-me-to-despair.aspx

She's Like the Swallow: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7h-shes-like-the-swallow.aspx

Every Night When The Sun Goes In:
http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7d-every-night-when-the-sun-goes-in.aspx

Here are the attached ballads so far:

7A. The Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William

7B. Love Has Brought Me To Despair

7C. Sheffield Park (The Unfortunate Maid)

7D. Every Night When The Sun Goes In

7E. Will Ye Gang Love, or, Rashy Muir

7F. My Blue-Eyed Boy

7G. Early, Early by the Break of Day

7H. She's Like the Swallow

There will be several more.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Stewie
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 10:07 PM

There's fine rendition of 'Love has brought me to despair' by Suzanne Thomas when she was a member of Hot Mud Family. The lyrics are basically the same as the Berzilla Wallin version posted in previous thread.

You can listen to it here - it begins at 2:30:

Hot Mud Family

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Stewie
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 10:17 PM

I should mention that she was Edmundson at that time and reverted to maiden name Thomas later. Listening to the track again after several decades, it is clear that it is not the solo effort that I had in my memory.

Thanks for the threads, Richie and Steve. Fascinating stuff!

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 04:12 AM

Thanks, Stewie!

Richie, regarding Steve's work. You of all people must realise that there is a mountain of work out there. Steve started out like me with thousands of 5x3 record cards but quickly realised the possibilities of computer data banks. He transferred to computer early on but I preferred my old record cards which I still have. (Swings and roundabouts IMO) The main advantage obviously with Steve is others can use his Indexes. With that amount of data speed is essential and sometimes there isn't time to sort out a complicated family of songs so they get lumped under one number. Sorting out these lumps I'm afraid is down to people like us. Steve doesn't blindly accept our suggestions. Most of the many corrections I've sent him he has accepted. Just one or two he baulks at, e.g., The Flash Lad/Wild and Wicked Youth he is finding hard to separate and I've had to leave Flash lad without a number in my latest book. The 2 songs have plot and a couple of stanzas in common, but different origins. There is therefore no definition of a Roud number. He generally includes everything in English that has ever appeared in Folksong anthologies. I have separate indexes for Folk song collected in England and those collected in other English-speaking countries. This enables a relatively small manageable core study without excluding everything else. And of course I also have a broadside index and a few specialised indexes such as shanties/carols/forces songs/children's songs, foreign language ballads, Music Hall......

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 02:20 PM

Hi Stewie, how are things down under? I was under the impression that the Suzanne Thomas version was derived from Berzilla's. It's a great version.

Steve, I do realize the enormity of Steve Roud's number system- and it's the best thing out there. I still check with Keefer's folk index and Traditional ballad index (which offers an analysis and recaps the story line. The problem for Roud is reading a title doesn't work and sometimes knowing the first line doesn't help. And in the case of Died for Love knowing the text doesn't always help!!!! To know where a song/ballad should be-- you have to know the text and underlying ballads. In the case of the WPA songs, they are housed at the University of Virginia with no access but they have been catalogued. Eventually much of the collected songs with be digitized but it will done be in the next generations. The hundred thousand songs housed in US collections will no longer be mysteries.

Even now there are important songs like-- "Early, Early, by the Break of Day" as sung Robert Cinnamond of County Antrim, Ireland, recorded by Robert Kennedy, 1955-- that I don't have access to and don't know where to find. [Anyone know?]

Some books and theses in the 20s and 30s- you can't get copies of - even through libraries (in Florida the expense prohibits them from borrowing from other states). When I get one of these- I put the book on my site so other people can use it. The only way to get these books into the public's hands is to track them down and travel to the library or collection where they are-- a costly and time consuming endeavor.

Even a fairly recent version "Beam of Oak" collected by Leach in Labrador in the 1960s is not accessible- I had to buy the book- which should be here soon.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 08:03 PM

Hi,

This is a version from Songs Sung in the Southern Appalachians, by Mellinger Henry, London c.1934. Taken from Rena Hicks, the wife of dulcimer maker Nathan Hicks and the niece of Buna Hicks, who also had the same family version, "Rude and Rambling Boy," probably from Rena's source.

It's loosely based on "Cruel Father" broadside (my B version) which has the 'rambling boy' opening. After the cruel father discovers his daughter is in love with the "wild and roving lad" the father presses him to sea, where the lad is killed by a cannonball. His ghost haunts the father that night and later his daughter hangs herself leaving a note that blames her father. It ends with the "Died for Love" stanza.

The second half of stanza one a corruption of "Nelly's Constancy" a broadside of 1686, which begins in later versions: "I love you Willie." One indication of the age of this version is that she was hung by her own "bed rope" a term that precedes the mid-1800s.


I Am a Rambling Rowdy Boy- sung by Rena Hick of Beech Mountain, NC collected in December 1933 by Melinger Henry.

I am a rambling rowdy boy,
A rambling still I be;
I give this world,
If that she knowed I loved her so.

Her old father caused this to know,
That he loved his daughter so,
He carried her away.

He[1] swore against them all
That he would use his cannonball,
He came home so late at night
A-grieving for his heart's delight.

Upstairs he run, the door he broke,
And he found her hung there by her own bed rope—
Out with his knife, he cut her down,
And in her bosom a letter he found:

Go dig my grave, both deep and wide;
Bury Sweet William by my side,
While friends and relative a-weeping around.

While there she lay beneath the ground,
There came a turtle dove,
To show the world
That she died for love.

1. Originally "She" throughout which makes no sense but it's "He" in Buna's version.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 10:35 AM

Hi,

Both "Love has Brought Me to Despair" and "She's like the Swallow" are based on stanzas taken from "The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire," dated c.1686.

"The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire" is based on two broadsides printed on a single sheet: printed on a single sheet by the Assignes of Thomas Symcocke" c. 1628: "The Deceased Maiden Lover" and "The Faithlesse Lover." They can be viewed here:
https://ebba.english.ucsb.edu/ballad/30059/image

Then there's lutenist Robert Johnson's "A Forlorn Lover's Complaint" (As I walked forth one summer's day) which is four stanzas found in "The Deceased Maiden Lover." Johnson died in 1633 so it would seem that the nine stanza "The Deceased Maiden Lover" is an expansion based on Johnson's work.

Does anyone know if Johnson's tune is Bonny Nell? Or the date of Johnson's composition?

The Oxford Magazine, Volume 25 gives a date of 1610 and I've given it a date of c. 1611 based on earlier research which I can't find.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 03:15 PM

Hi,

The source of the Rena Hicks' version "I Am a Rambling Rowdy Boy" and the Buna Hicks' version "Rude and Rambling Boy" is Rebecca Harmon.

Buna got it directly from her mother-in-law, Rebecca. Roby Monroe, (Buna's husband) and Ben Hicks (Rena's father-in-law) were brothers and sons of Rebecca.

This is important because Rebecca (1842-1919) was Council Harmon's daughter and "Old Counce" was progenitor of the ballads and Jack tales for the family in the early 1800s.

Counce got his ballads from grandfather Big Sammy 1753-1835 who he lived with after his father Andrew Harmon was killed by a tree when Counce was very young. Big Sammy and his father David brought the ballads from Virginia before the Revolutionary War. David was a loyalist and apparently came to the mountains to avoid the rising conflicts with England.

So there's a good chance this ballad is from the 1700s. Here's Buna's version which seems to be more accurate:

Rude and Rambling Boy- sung by Buna Hicks of Beech Mountain, NC collected in 1941, collected by Frank and Anne Warner.
Learned from her mother-in-law Rebecca Harmon Hicks.

I am a rude and a rambling boy,
And a rude and a rambling boy I'll be;
I give this world, I am but sure
If I had she knew she loved me so.

Her old father came this to know,
That his daughter loved me so,
He cursed, he swore among them all
He swore he'd use the cannonball.

He came home so late at night
A-grieving for his heart's delight.
Upstairs he run, the door he broke,
He found her hung by her own bed rope.

Out with his knife, and he cut her down,
And in her bosom a letter he found;
Said: Dig my grave, both deep and wide;
And bury sweet William by my side.

All on my breast lay a turtle dove,
To show the world I she died for love.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 10:29 PM

Hi,

I've roughed in the headnotes for Irish ballad 7J. I Know My Love (by His Way of Walking) here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7j-i-know-my-love.aspx

It's curious that a fairly well known ballad would stem from one well know traditional version from Donat Nono about 1904. Helen Laird's first version published in April 1904 had two stanzas and a chorus.

Does anyone know of traditional versions other than these?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 05:59 PM

Hi,

With some trepidation I'm proceeding on with some related versions. This variant is "Love is Pleasing" or, "Love is Teasing" which appears to be old - this first stanza from Lucy Stewart dates back-- by my estimation-- to the late 1700s at least. I can't hear the end of that stanza- so I'll put a link. The association with Waly, Waly is clear and her third stanza has been traced to the early to mid- 1500s.

Listen: http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/gd/play/46994;jsessionid=5F02D24184955117B06896608D08E06D

Love is Teasin'

Oh whit needs I go busk an' braw
Oh whit needs I tae cam my hair
When my false lover has me forsaken
And he says he'll never love me [any mair,]
And he says he'll never love me [any mair.]

I leaned my back into an oak [aik]
I thought it was a truty tree
At first it stood till its branches grew
And shaded my false love tae me
And shaded my false love tae me

Love it is teasin', love it is freezin' [sic]
A little while, [when] it is new,
But as it grows older, it grows the colder
And it fades awa' like the mornin dew.
And it fades awa' like the mornin dew.

Oh when my aperon was tae me shin,
My love he keepit my company,
But noo my aperon is tae my chin,
And he passes the door and he never looks in, [stops]

Oh when my aperon it come down,
My love he keepit my company,
But noo my aperon is tae my chin,
And he passes the door and he never looks in,
And he passes the door and he never looks in.

I wish my baby it was born,
And sit upon the nurse's knee,
And me in the grave now was laid
And the green, green grass waving over me
And the green, green grass waving over me.

I wish I wish in vain,
I wish I was a maid again,
But a maid again I ne'er can be
Till the orange grows on the apple tree
Till the orange grows on the apple tree.

The first verse as given by Burns who must have heard it in the late 1700s:

O wherefore should I busk my head?        
Or wherefore should I kame my hair?        
For my true Love has me forsook,        
And says he'll never lo'e me mair.        

Why "busk an braw"? What's a definition? Will someone ck and correct my quick transcription?

I'm not sure how to separate this from Waly, but assume Love is Teasin' is considered a separate yet related song. In "Stewart Style, 1513-1542: Essays on the Court of James V" comes this stanza:

Hey trollie lollie, love is jolly
A whyll whyll it is new;
When it is old it growis full cold:
Woe worth the love untrew.

which continues:

Underneath the grein wood trie
Ther thy good love bidis thee,

whyll= while

Not sure how all this fits together yet. Anyone have some ideas? Certainly Waly was attached to Jamie Douglas and two stanzas are in common- what about the Burns then?

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 09:20 PM

Hi,

I wrote part of my Love is Teasing headnotes just now. I'm sharing the rough draft here since it's short:

Although "Love Is Teasing" also titled "Love Is Pleasing[1]" has its own Roud number, 1049, the song will be inexorably linked to "Waly, Waly" because the "Love is Teasing" identifying stanza appears, although amended, as a central stanza in Waly, Waly. Other stanzas from "Waly Waly, are also held in common, linking the songs to an ancestry much different than the Died for Love Songs.

The role of "Died for Love" is usually secondary and stanzas found in "Love Is Teasing" are usually floaters or filler stanzas of which all three songs and their relative songs occasionally share. Conversely stanzas from Waly, Waly are rarely found in Died For Love since Died for Love is influenced by different early broadsides: Nelly's Constancy and the similar The Jealous Lover (or, The Damosel's Complaint) with borrowing from the parallel broadside, "Constant Lady and the False-Hearted Squire." "Died for Love" is also related to or part of the "Alehouse" stanzas, the suicide (Rambling Boy/Cruel Father) stanzas, The Foolish Girl stanzas, the "I Wish, I Wish" stanzas and the Died for Love ending (Dig my grave both wide. . .). Of these diverse elements, only the "I Wish, I Wish" stanzas seem to have kept a tie with Love is Teasing and the relationship is distant in most cases.

Perhaps this relationship with "I Wish" is caused by the stanza found in Arthur's Seat, a broadside with stanza in common with Waly, Waly:

Oh, oh! if my young Babe were born,
and set upon the Nurses Knee,
And I my self were dead and gone,
for a Maid again I'le never be.

Arthur's seat also has the "Should I be bound that may go free?/should I Love them that Loves not me?" found in other songs in the extended "Died for Love" family. The close relationship between "The Unfortunate Swain/Picking Lilies" broadsides and "Must I Go Bound," "Deep in Love" as well as sharing with "Waly, Waly" creates a complex relationship that can only be understood specific song texts.

In "Love is Teasin' " by Lucy Stewart of Aberdeenshire, from the family of Fetterangus Stewarts, the Love is Teasing stanzas at the beginning seem to simply replace the "Died for Love" stanzas about the alehouse, infidelity and money, as if they were interchangeable-- the last three stanzas are kept. It's easy to conceptualize how this could occur since both songs are about the lost of love and abandonment.

Comments?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 07:50 PM

Hi,

This an Irish variant of I believe, "Love is teasing" from the recitation of Mary O'Donnell, Toberdoney, Dervock, Co. Antrim before 1897

1. Oh! Johnnie, Johnnie, [2] but love is bonnie,
A wee while just when it is new ; [3]
But when it's old, love, it then grows cold, love
And fades away like the morning dew.      

2. Oh! Johnnie, Johnnie, but you are nice, love,
You are the first love that ere I had ; [4]
You are the first love that ere I had,      
So come kiss me, Johnnie, before ye gang.      

3. One kiss of my lips you ne'er shall get, love,      
Nor in my arms [5] you ne'er shall lie,      
Until you grant me that one request, love,
That oftentime you did me deny.      

4. All for to grant you that one request, love,      
I might as well on you my heart bestow;
For as good a lover as you may come,
And who can hinder your [6] love to go.      

5. It's love doth come, yes,[7] and love doth go,
Like the wee sma'[8] birds intill their nests;
If it's [9] to tell you all that I know,
The lad's naw here that I love best.      

6. If he was here that's to be my dear
I'd cast those angry frowns away;
If he was here that's to be my dear,      
I'd scarce have power to say him nay,      

7. It's ower the moss, love, ye needna cross, love,
Nor through the mire ye needna ride;      
For I hae gotten a new sweetheart, love,
And you may to choose your ain self a bride. [10]      

8. It's had I known, the first time I kissed you,      
Young woman's heart's love were so hard to win.
I would have locked it all in a chest, love,
And screwed it tight with a silver pin.      

2. Motherwell suggested that "Johnie, Johnie" in his version was a corruption for "nonnie; nonnie," as there is no character named ''Johnie'' in the plot of the "Jamie Douglas" ballad. It is just possible that the name has been taken from the Antrim version.

3. A variation of the second line is " A little time while it is new," but I prefer the more archaic version, though this agrees more closely with Allan Ramsay's, because it is more likely that the older form has been modernised than that the original has been Doricised; and, besides, Ramsay was as fond of repolishing these "auld sangs" as the Bishop himself, so that his versions cannot always be considered literally indisputable.

4. A variation of the third line is "You are the first love that ere I knew." It was probably for variety's sake.

5. Pronounced "a-rums."

6. A variation for "your love" is "you, love."

7. "Yes" is often omitted..

8. For "wee sma" I have heard "little small."

9. For "it's " some say "it was."

10. These two last lines are sometimes sung thus:

"For I hae gotten a new sweetheart, and you
May go choose your ain self a bride.".

Taken from On the Antrim version of "Waly, Waly." Ulster Journal of Archaeology, Series II Vol. 3 Pages 144/148; published in 1897,
BY J. JOHNSTON ABRAHAM, T.C.D.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 08:29 PM

Hi,

Here's a Scottish variant with a similar chorus. The Irish version is quite different. I haven't finished transcribing it- here's the link:http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/2963;jsessionid=1C4C81736E7156DDE9806817C824057D

Love is Bonnie (Love is Pleasing)- sung by Willie Mathieson, of Aberdeenshire, 1952.

I left my father I left my mother,
I left my brother and sisters too,
I left my home and kind relations
For the sake to go with you.

CHORUS: Love is bonnie, bonnie, bonnie
A little whilie when it is new
As it grows older it aye grows colder
Fades away like the morning dew.

I wish my parents never whistled,
I wish my parents never sung;
I wish the cradle had never rocked me,
I wish I'd died, when I was young.

CHORUS

I wish I wish but in vain,
I wish I was a maid again,
A maid again I never can be
Till the orange grows on the apple tree.

CHORUS

O lassies, lassies, heed my warning,
. . to false men
They're like the dew on a summer morning
. . .learn to love again

[text incomplete] If you can add to-- it please do. Comments or other versions welcome!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 02:21 PM

Hi,

TY for all who have contributed to these threads. As the thread gets long it's hard to see what's in it and it takes a while to pull up-- so I'm starting Died for Love: Part III. Joe Offer will be closing this thread soon.

Please post on the new thread-- Died for Love: III --as we explore the various Died for Love songs and their relatives,

TY

Richie