BS: Death Penalty?

Subject: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:42 AM

Yes or no, shou;ld we kill the bad guys [they are usually men]
no big stories, yes or no?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:46 AM

ok, the question is now a bit easier=
should we exterminate Child Killers, Terrorists and Cop Killers?
if not, why not?

[if they were convicted beyond all reasonable doubt, ie you KNOW they killed someone, children, cop or innocent folk?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: C-flat
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:00 AM

Every conviction has to be "beyond reasonable doubt" or they should be found innocent and yet there has always been miscarriages of justice and always will be. I could easily fall into the "flog 'em and hang 'em" brigade, especially where crimes against children occur, but unless our legal system is completely and 100% foolproof how can you advocate the death penalty?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Gurney
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:37 AM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:50 AM

Define terrorists John. The miserable set of Fenian bastards who murder innocent English folk or the glorious freedom fighters of Erin struggling against the yoke of British oppresion?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:53 AM

No, as a deterrant it has proved useless, to use it now reduces it to a mere act of revenge.
eric

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: mooman
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:17 AM

Against it.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: alanabit
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:30 AM

I am against it for anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:15 AM

Where does it say "Thou shalt not kill, except to kill killers"? And if you kill killers are you a killer yourself? And if you're a killer should you be killed for killing a killer because you thought killing wrong, except if you decide to kill only killers?
Just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:31 AM

If it is wrong for them to kill,it must,logically speaking, be wrong for us to do the same.
John

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:01 AM

For people within the European Union, this is a settled issue. Individual countries don't have the power to bring back it back, even if they wanted to.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 08:12 AM

Harvey/Giok - I know what you're saying - and (probably!) agree. But I think the issue really is about who's doing the killing, not that killing is wrong in principle. In other words , the pro lobby says it's wrong for individuals to kill, but it's not wrong for the state to do it.An argument of pragmatism, then, rather than principle, it seems to me.
Dáithí

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:15 AM

Old joke, kill one man and you're a murderer, kill a million and you're a world leader.
eric

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Partridge
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:29 AM

Against it

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:43 AM

I was always under the impression that what was said in the good book was "Thou shalt not commit murder" not, "Thou shalt not kill".

Personally I am against it - judicial systems are all too fallible. Thought that way ever since hearing "The Ballad of Timothy Evans" when I was about fourteen.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:51 AM

And think of all the other ballads that would have been written since, had we not the sense to outlaw it. Guildford four? Birmingham six?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:51 AM

Strongly in favor of it but it's a terrible idea. One mistake is too many.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Bohdran Killer
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 10:05 AM

It also says in the Bible " thou shalt not suffer a witch to live "
We have not learned much since those days have we ?
Thank god I'm an atheist.
Killer

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 10:25 AM

My sense is that there are surely some crimes for which the death penalty is appropriate.

For example, if you are in a position to activate a weapon which then destroys the lives of thousands of people and leaves hundreds of them dead, and hundreds more broken or dismembered, or mad with pain and stress...and you go ahead and push that button, and the fields are then littered with corpses of people who would have been alive if you hadn't done so, and you did this with full reflection and malice aforethought...let's say, for discussion's sake, that it was 2000 lives all told on your hands...wouldn't that be reasonable grounds for capital punishment? Or at least, impeachment?

A

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Cruiser
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:31 PM

Hang 'em High.

(or barring that, send 'em to Hull for punishment. Sorry jOhn, could not resist.)

This is the only life we have and society should not have to support or tolerate the likes of 'em. Give them their just reward here and now because they will not get it from anyone, anywhere, anytime or anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:47 PM

Amos:

Nice argument, but does that apply to the Americans who planned the bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki,or do we accept 'extenuating circumstances'?

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:49 PM

Hurt my family, I hurt you. Life is simple for me.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:01 PM

For it...

In extreme cases like Paul Bernardo, Charles Manson, Jeffry Dhamer... anyone who absolutely CANNOT be helped... Why waste the money keeping them alive sucking on the state teat? One 25 cent bullet to the back of head and the problem is solved...

And if more than 2 people SAW you do whatever crime it is that got you convicted, or if your crime invloved a single child (Especially if your 'vocation' required you to wear a while collar while you were violating children) or the consumption of human flesh, you get NO appeals... you don't hang around on Death Row for 10 or 15 years... you get taken out behind the woodshed immediately after your trial, and you don't come back...

We can call that "The Express Lane"

For that matter, while yer at it, bring back the guillotine, and the gallows, and make sure there's TV coverage by my local cable TV station! Sell tickets, and popcorn and big foam hands that say "We're #1" on 'em for the kiddies!

Make it a family event!

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:12 PM

We either believe in the sanctity of life or we don't.

No, no, a thousand times no!!!........

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Cruiser
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:23 PM

Yes, yes, a gazillion times yes!!!................................

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:29 PM

For me, the productive meditation about the death penalty is this one:

If I am against it, logically, as an intentional and deliberate extension or application of my values system, when I consider the issue in general, then what is all that stuff that happens in my head, heart, and spirit when a crime so stirs me up that I want to kill the bastard who did it?

And if I should choose to reframe my position, and be for it, then what is all that stuff that happens in my head, heart, and spirit when a personal transgression committed against me (as I perceive it) first stirs me up so much that I want to kill the bastard who did it, but then LATER, if I am honest, I have always found a way to forgive and, usually, even, resume dealings with that person when I have sorted out all that stuff (and maybe they have too)?

The "crime" and the "stuff" vary with the circumstances, but the pattern of "kill then forgive" seems constant.

So... I find I cannot be in favor of a permanent, time-determined approach to punishment, when by my own example I can see how a process of reconciliation is at least theoretically possible, given enough time. It isn't so much that I want the perp to have more time.... it's the society dealing with the event that I want not to limit by a policy of finality.

Also, I find that I cannot make life or death decisions based on financial preferences-- the argument that it's cheaper to kill than house murderers seems quite barbaric to me-- and pretentious, because somehow it never seems to be the people having to actually decide on or implement the sentence who start from that place, but the bystanders.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Cruiser
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:46 PM

Susan,

Have you ever had a close relative murdered? I have and the pain is tremendous, especially for the parents. Those parents are fundamentalist Christians. They wanted justice (death) to the kidnapper, rapist, and murderer of their teenaged daughter. She suffered a tortured death with a cattle prod, super glue in her eyes, and duct tape on her mouth and hands a she traveled in the trunk of his car before her mutilated, dead body was dumped in the desert. Fortunately, the murderer was killed by a brave law enforcement officer in a hand-to-hand fight when he was apprehended while on the run. His name was Christopher Wilder. He kidnapped and killed many young models in his reign of terror.

Why on earth would any reasonable person want such a man to live? His appeals would likely be ongoing today.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:52 PM

As a human, as a thinking human, as a humane human, I'm against it.

As a human who sees the ugly things that are done, things by folks with names like John Wayne Gazcy and Jeffrey Dahmer and Albert Fish and Heinrich Himmler and H. H. Mudge and Ian Brady and John Haigh and Elizabeth Bathory and Giles de Rais and so very many others, I can only say that it certainly does have a low recidivism rate.

The question in my mind is whether or not the person could be returned to society after rehabilitation or whether they are so far gone, what they have done is so despicable, that society uses the ultimate "casting out".

Could Sawney Bean and his family have been rehabbed? Peter Kurtin? Henri Landrau? Belle Guinness?

I don't know. I can say that I that the world as a whole is better off without some of these folks, however.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:22 PM

Cruiser, if the parents were Christians, surely they, above all others should be against the death penalty? Or did I miss something in all those sermons I listened to at school and the studies I made of the Bible.Christians surely follow the word of their prophet Christ. Is there another name for those who follow the pre-Christ Old testament writings which cannot be considered Christian?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:48 PM

You have to ask the fundamental question:

Is it OK for a human to kill another, under whatever circumstances?

That will give you your answer. To me, it's no.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:58 PM

"Strongly in favor of it but it's a terrible idea."

I think that's brilliantly put. Sums up the truth that just because we might want something to happen, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to happen.

It seems to me so clear that it does terrible damage to a society to have killing done in its name, that there'd have to be an overwhelmingly strong reason to go against that. And that just doesn't ever appear in these discussions. The suggestion that somehow it makes it better for the relatives of a murder victim just doesn't seem to make any kind of sense to me. I try to imagine myself in that situation, and it just doesn't work.

And I find puzzling how there are always some people who come up with these fantasies about revenge killing, and it reads as if they are enjoying them.

All in all I'm profoundly glad that this is behind us in the continent I live in. And I'm very happy that when they had a referendum in Ireland a couple of years on whether the ban should be included in the constitution, the vote went in favour of that. That's what I'd expect in a truly civilised country, and I'm sure there are at least some other countries where ordinary people would vote that way. Maybe some day even England. Maybe even the USA in time.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:00 PM

For me, the question can also come to "When is it acceptable (moral, ethical, whatever) for the State to do what I as an individual am forbidden by the State to do?"

Just as a point of interest: if it wasn't for the death penalty, Jesus of Nazareth couldn't have redeemed mankind.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:02 PM

People who commit murder in its various guises have stated by that act that they are in favour of capital punishment. So, who am I to disagree?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:10 PM

The longer story of Christopher Wilder can be found here. I'd snuff him in a minute. I am against the wilful extinction of human life. Wilder was less than human. Theory can take you to a point but the ground truth has to be dealt with and this guy was vermin, not homo sapiens.
I wouldn't say that about many people. But read the article on his history and consider the parents.

A

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:38 PM

Mentally subnormal people were considered "vermin" by the nazi state. A friend of mine had his sister put to death by them. If, according to Christians, all humans are created in God's image,including all so called "vermin", then who draws the line as to who is God's mistake?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: alanabit
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:44 PM

I disagree strongly Amos. Society certainly deserves protection from this man. I would have had no more regrets than you if a law enforcement officer had shot him while he was attempting an assault. That is very different from saying we have the right to drag a helpless man (no matter how bad) from a cell and then slaughter him. One of the reasons that civilised lands abandoned this horrible practice was because of the the appalling effect it had on the prison officers and the officials responsible for carrying out the sentence. The fact that many sick/wicked/weak killers may deserve death is neither here nor there. In Britain I felt that the Birmingham Pub Bombers deserved execution. I still do. As it happened, the authorities jugged the wrong people and banged them up for years. One of them even died inside, I believe. Thank God we didn't execute them. I doubt if my admission of being wrong and saying sorry is much use to those whose lives were ruined. I sure am glad that wiser heads than my own prevailed at the time.
When justice becomes perfect, we will be able to carry out capital punishment with a clear conscience. The conundrum is that when justice is perfect, it will mean that people are too. So capital punishment will be both unecessary and unwanted. For the time being, let's just stop this horrible practice anyway. No civilised country carries it out.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:50 PM

Alan:

I agree that the wheels of justice have to be cautious as hell and maybe we would be better if there were no death penalty. When I said I would snuff the bastard, I was speaking about a scenario involving the heat of the moment such as hot pursuit. Not the cold reflection of a scheduled execution. Nevertheless, if he had done to a daughter of mine what he did to the many many women itemized in the above link, I would prefer to think he would be snuffed, and that right quickly. Civilized or not.

A

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Frankham
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:55 PM

Life imprisonment is the greater punishment if the killer is denied
any parole and must live in a penitent state for the remainder of
his/her life.

Death is too often for killers "a consumation devoutly to be wished" and it doesn't impress upon the killer the heaviness of the deed.
Life imprisonment with no frills and the possibility of a kind of
psychological redemption without a reward other than that of itself
seems to be the best deterrent to me.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:57 PM

Fine Frank... YOU pay to lock 'em up....

I'd rather see my money spent on important things like health care, schools and roads

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:08 PM

I'd snuff him in a minute.

But as you said, Amos, that isn't what is being talked about here. What's being talked about is a ritual killing that, in common with many people, I believe must ineviably degrade and contaminate any society which indulges in it.

And what confirms that for me is when we have proponenets discussing it, not as a terrible thing that has to be done for the greater common good, but with a kind of relish. That's what I mean by "degrade and contaminate."

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: alanabit
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:14 PM

Well actually Clinton, as a US taxpayer, I believe Frank does just that already. I should also add that the USA already seems extraordinarily enthusiastic about locking up people - over half of one per cent of its total population - I believe. Most serious observers would say that if enough money is spent on health and education, crimes of violence evetually start falling as a matter of course. So I wonder if you aren't looking at this problem through a different end of the telescope to some of the rest of us.
Amos.
    I am substantially in agreement with you in your most recent post. My emotional reaction to a horrific murder is the normal human desire to blast the perpetrator off screen as if he was the baddy in a Clint Eastwood movie. That is why it is so important that real life justice should be operated by people with cool heads and no personal involvement.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:25 PM

Cruiser, that's exactly my point. If a strong personal feeling can sweep away in one act-- one moment-- a value worked out over my lifetime, then I would suspect it may not be a feeling that would stand the test of time. Yes, as Amos says, of course I would WANT to "snuff" him, but it is my hope that it would not be a desire I would take action to satisfy.

I would hope (for me, I mean), that I would make a conscious choice to treat the feeling as a feeling, not something to be acted upon as a value.

What good are our values if we cannot exert our will to live by them when the crunch comes? Heck, that's when we need to rely on our values the most! The pain and frustration-- they're the cost of living with a high degree of intentionality as a higher order of motivation than reactivity. I am glad to have role models to look to, who have struggled with these issues in their own lives, in response to their own experiences of atrocity. Corrie tenBoom, for one, comes to mind.

As far as "what do Christians believe," we're as varied as any other group, and as human as every other bunch of knowitalls on the planet.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:14 PM

One puts down a rabbid dog right? So why not do the same with a 'rabbid' person?

The two are no different in my book...

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:17 PM

Has a rabid dog ever had a posthumous pardon?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:25 PM

it's an imperfect world... screws fall out...

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:31 PM

Tell that to the grieving family.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Cruiser
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:36 PM

As usual and expected Susan, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Though you and I are on opposite ends of the religious spectrum, I respect your commitment to your Faith. I just don't understand why you and other Christians, who often exhibit such goodness, kindness, devoutness, etc. don't give yourselves the personal credit you deserve. If I needed to emulate and follow someone down the paths of human righteousness it would be persons like you, my Christian relatives, and some others here that I would seek out for guidance. However, I think all those just mentioned would be righteous without the unnecessary cloak of Godliness, because that goodness and conscience is innate and your religion just helps express those qualities. I know; I am probably completely missing the point. As a former devout Christian, now an atheist, I can not comprehend the wonders of, or the mind of, God.

My logic leads me to the conclusion that Christopher Wilder could not receive justice from a God that my mind reasons as nonexistent. So justice must be meted out here and now.

In all fairness, I want to say that the tragedy mentioned above strengthened my relative's belief in God. I certainly do not understand that, except their grief would have likely driven them insane without some "hope" of seeing their beautiful, wonderful, innocent, daughter again. Therefore, I must give some credit to religious belief, notwithstanding the false "hope" it provides, for helping them get through this nightmare.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM

Guest...

Line 'em up, and I will...

Ya really think an extreme case like Paul Bernardo, or Carla Holmolka, or Jeffery Dhamer, or... or... or... would ever be 'pardoned'???? Hell, wasn't Paul Bernardos MOM actually lobbying to have him killed???? Maybe that's another serial killer I'm thinking of...

Sure, there is no 100 percent system... but why should we let that stop us where we are CERTAIN????

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:49 PM

The pain and frustration-- they're the cost of living with a high degree of intentionality as a higher order of motivation than reactivity.

Susan, you say the most INNERESTIN' things sometimes, I swan!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:05 PM

Were I certain that they did live out their lives in prison in a state of repentance and pentitance....

Were I certain that they actually cared about those they killed....

But rape is a crime of power, of control. So is serial murder. I'm afraid that the only regret of these folks would be that they cannot continue their spree of power and control.

But if society IS going to execute, then it should be done quietly and quickly, as one would clean a dirty toilet or do any other disagreeable job.