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BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them
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Subject: BS: How to rule by fear - Exceute them From: Rasener Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:11 AM Nice one Iran. NOT http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8484478.stm People who hide behind religion to justify their actions, make me sick |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Exceute them From: Backwoodsman Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:23 AM It's people who are the problem Les, not religion. They just use religion (or, rather, their perverse interpretation of religious writing and doctrines) as justification for their obscenities. A bit like the way thugs use football as a vehicle for their thuggery (witness the Utd/City match last night - and not all of the thugs were in the crowd). IMHO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Exceute them From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:23 AM Convicted and executed for being an enemy of God. Not the regime, not Islam, but GOD. Wow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Exceute them From: Donuel Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:24 AM You are both correct sirs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Exceute them From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:25 AM Clickie: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8484478.stm |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Exceute them From: Rasener Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:28 AM Yep I agree BWM and yes Bonnie - its amazing. Thanks Bonnie. Not like me to not do the clickie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Exceute them From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:33 AM Regimes will use anything they've got. Religion, political credo, laws, regulations, corrupt judges, corrup police, emergency decrees, whatever. As Backwoodsman says, it's not religion itself that is the problem. After all, virtually all of our most positive ideas about good morality, kindness, mercy, and good conduct ALSO came from religions...it's power-hungry and fear-driven people of every sort who are the problem. Not sometimes. Always. A power-hungry and fear-driven person is a dangerous person, and one who will use ANY religion, ANY body of law, or ANY non-religious political theory to murder whom they please. Atheist regimes have happily murdered millions in the name of "freedom" or "order" or some other such term, just the same as religious regimes have done in the name of "God". |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Exceute them From: Wolfgang Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:47 AM If they are "enemies of god" why not leave it to him to act. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Stu Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:22 AM Any state-authorised killing is murder, regardless of which state authorises it and whatever means they seek to justify their acts. All such states that sanction murder in this way are essentially bereft of any moral authority. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Rapparee Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:33 AM When you've got nothing to lose, why should you give a shit? If they're going to execute you tomorrow, why not attack the guards today? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:00 AM Good point. However, some people will clinge to even two more minutes of life rather than risk losing it in the present moment. That's probably why the executed were sometimes given a chance to smoke a last cigarette...and took it. "If they are "enemies of god" why not leave it to him to act." That's a splendid idea, Wolfgang! ;-) But most religious authorities get around it quite easily by stating that "we" are here to do God's will and be God's "agents", so to speak, in seeing that God's will is done. It's a very handy way of getting to do exactly what YOU wanted to do anyway, but using God's authority to justify it. What hypocrisy! Now, in a similar fashion people will quote the authority of state law, civil law, or the orders of a superior officer to justify committing similarly inhumane acts. It's these authority systems and people's blind obedience to them that are the problem as far as I can see. The state is a distant authority. God is a more distant (and hypothetical) authority. Priests and mullahs are a nearer authority. A superior officer of any kind is a nearer authority. A boss or gang leader is a nearer authority. The question is...why the hell should we obey ANY of them if it violates our own conscience???? And why do people do that? Because of fear? Conformity? Evasion of personal responsibility? The chance for personal gain? Sheer stupidity? All of those, I figure, but it's all really just fear in the final analysis. People do violence to other people because they are afraid of something. If they had no fear, they would not engage in violence but would choose to live in peace with one another. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:11 AM Thos who rule Islam make me sick. Those who worship the true Islam need to get their voices out..and shout "NOT IN OUR NAME!" from every mosque in the Middle East... Until women are treated as equals and the old fuddyduddy nutcases have finally poppled their clogs, the Middle East ain't going too far ahead, I'm afraid... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:24 AM Part of the problem with Islam is that it's a rather young religion, relatively speaking, and younger religions tend to be more doctrinaire and stricter than older religions which have gone through lengthy periods of liberalization. On the other hand, the Islamic fundamentalists themselves do NOT represent the genuine spirit of Islam at all...though they certainly think they do. They are just as wacky as the wackier Christian fundamentalists...maybe even moreso. The trouble with one set of old fuddyduddy nutcases is....they are usually replaced by another set of the same right around the time they die off, and you can hardly tell the difference! ;-) Thus are the sins of the fathers passed on to the sons, yea, even unto the 7th generation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:32 AM "How to rule by fear" Umm, create a bogeyman of course! See the 'war on terror', the cold war, and McCarthyism etc. for further details. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Smedley Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:04 AM It is aggravating, but not surprising, when the religious apologists chime in on cases like this with "it's not religion". Sorry, but it is. These people were not executed because of their perceived hostility to broccoli, or synchronised swimming, or the novels of Ernest Hemingway. Religions are big, baggy discourses and they can be interpreted in many ways, and they often inspire people to do great things. They also, evidently, inspire people to do appalling things. So, please face the facts, this IS about religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:05 AM Exactly! ;-D Hermann Goering explained all that perfectly in his famous Nuremberg commetary about how no ordinary public ever wants to go to war...and how effectively their government can go about persuading them to by creating a bogeyman. Next step after that: accuse anyone who is opposed to the war of being "unpatriotic". |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:19 AM That above post was a reply to Crow Sister. It was only superficially about religion, Smedley....like Chinese executions of dissidents are superficially about Communism...like Texan executions of prisoners are superficially about "justice". What all of them are really about is the determination of a stiff-necked bunch of authoritarian bastards in power somewhere to have it all THEIR way at someone else's expense by excercising their privilege to kill people who don't agree with them. Religious people are not all like that. In fact, most religious people aren't like that. Most of them don't wish to kill anyone. But what about the leaders of cruel authority systems of every kind? What about them? They have a vested interest in killing people who dissent or who present an impediment to their authority. I am not "apologizing" for religion!!! There's nothing there to apologize FOR. I am opposing knee-jerk bigotry against entire huge sections of humanity who freely choose to believe in something you don't believe in. (and I belong to NO religion) (NOR any political party) (NOR anything collective whatsoever) I belong to the human race, and that's it, period. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: CarolC Date: 28 Jan 10 - 01:24 PM It is aggravating, but not surprising, when the religious apologists chime in on cases like this with "it's not religion". Sorry, but it is. These people were not executed because of their perceived hostility to broccoli, or synchronised swimming, or the novels of Ernest Hemingway. They were not executed because of their perceived hostility to religion, either. They were executed because they were perceived to be a threat to the regime in power, who want to remain in power. Religion only provided the pretext. In the absence of having religion to use as a pretext, another pretext would be found. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 10 - 01:39 PM And that is exactly my point. The problem in the world is and always has been...ruthless regimes of one type or another...whether or not they were outwardly "religious" regimes. The study of history reveals plainly to me that they are all religious about something, though, including diehard atheists like Mao, Stalin, and Pol Pot or pragmatic imperialists like the British, the Americans, the Germans, etc. I'll tell you what they're truly religious about. They are religious about their own exclusive monopoly on power and privilege, that's what. That is the very prosiac and commonplace "god" which they all worship and serve. The ceremonials vary from place to place...as do the "religious" icons and symbols. In the USA, for example, those icons are things like the flag, the American Eagle, the White House, the presidency, Congress, the Statue of Liberty, the Washington monument, Mount Rushmore, etc. If you don't think it's a religion, you're not really looking at it very carefully at all. You don't need a church or a deity to have a state religion. You just need centralized dogma, rigid belief in that dogma, a hierarchical authority structure to enforce the dogma, and lots of obedient followers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jan 10 - 01:59 PM "Any state-authorised killing is murder," Totally agree - which puts Texas somewhere in the top ten. "Those who rule Islam make me sick." Clerical child abusers and those who excuse it make me sick. All those who kill others who don't share their religious or political beliefs make me sick. Those who slaughter and torture for oil and and power and territory and influence and wealth make me sick. Those who send our young people to fight and die for 'god and country' make me sick. Those who terrorise and murder pregnant women and doctors in the name of 'life' make me sick. In fact religion and nationalism in general make me a little queasy. Why do 'glass houses' and 'stones' spring to mind? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Backwoodsman Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:12 PM "They were not executed because of their perceived hostility to religion, either. They were executed because they were perceived to be a threat to the regime in power, who want to remain in power. Religion only provided the pretext. In the absence of having religion to use as a pretext, another pretext would be found." Precisely, Carol. What makes me more than a litle queasy, Jim, is the kind of bigotry that drives someone to tar millions of decent, honest, hard-working people who happen to have faith with the same brush as the minority pieces of shit who rape children under their 'protection'. As LH and CarolC (and I) have stated - religion is a bandwagon that people jump on in order to grant themselves authority to carry out their evil-doings. It's people who are the problem, not faith or even lack of it, these things would happen even if there were no religions, the bastards would merely latch on to some other bandwagon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Rapparee Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:18 PM Like rape, "religious authority" is about power. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: CarolC Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:40 PM All authority is about power. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:42 PM Yup. That's why I tend to have a problem with most forms of authority. I don't enjoy being powerless. I don't think anyone does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Bobert Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:52 PM Here in the US you don't get the trial... Just the sentence... BTW, I heard that the guy who shot the abortion doctor may just be convicted of volutary manslaughter which is about as harsh as a parking ticket... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:57 PM Boy, they must have some damn severe parking tickets down there... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: CarolC Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:01 PM The guy who shot the abortion doctor was allowed to make a plea of voluntary manslaughter, but he can't get convicted of it under the laws in the state where the shooting took place. There is too much evidence of pre-meditation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:09 PM Than again, many of us who say that we have faith, have no faith whatsoever in authority. We don't see "authority" or "obedience" as aspects of faith at all. It seems to me that there are two radically different types of religion. One claims to have possession of the Answers, or Truth; and also claims the authority to enforce that Truth, whatever it is. The other type of religion explores the Questions of this life, and sees Truth as something beyond us that is constantly sought and explored, but never completely found. These two types of "religion" coexist (uneasily) within almost every religious denomination. I suppose you may wonder why denominations don't split, so there are separate churches for the "Seekers" and the "Authoritarians." Well, the Christian churches have split many times - and each new branch develops its own new Seeker and Authoritarian divisions. So, we seekers continue to hope that our Authoritarian counterparts will sometime see the light and come to understand our big Question Mark in the Sky. And the Authoritarians (Absolutists?) continue to hope that they will some day be able to bring us heretics into submission. And the beat goes on..... But despite the fact that I am embarrassed by the Authoritarians within my denomination, I find broad statements like "Religion makes me sick" to be profoundly offensive. I thought tolerance was supposed to be an important aspect of liberalism, but that doesn't seem to be the case here at Mudcat. Iran is a good example of religion gone haywire, but it is NOT an example of the essence of religious faith. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Rapparee Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:14 PM Joe, only I have the Truth, and that's that any human who says they have the Truth is lying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:58 PM Agreed, Rapaire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Bobert Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:19 PM Well, yeah, Joe... Right here in the good ol' US of A we have both sides within the so-called Christain religion... We have alot of fundamentalists who claim to acdept Jesus as their Savior who never quite get around to, ahhhhh, the New Testament??? Like what is that all about??? They also have this view that God causes and controls everything??? Then we have folks who seem to have more interest in the New Testamant and less in the Old Testament who believe that God is all loving and not to be feared and is out to try to make stuff work out for the good in our lives.... These folks love to quote the New Testament and talk about the teachings of Jesus... Seems that the folks who are so into going off to invade and kill people in other countries are the fundamentalists and the peacefull people are the ones who are into the New Testament... Maybe a little over-simplified but, hey, that's the way I see it... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: GUEST,999 Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:30 PM I doubt that 'TRUTH' is the possession of any one religion. Few religions can claim to be clean of murder/mayhem/nastiness/idolatry/wars of empire--read minds and souls. Interpretations of 'holy books' have caused many to die unnecessarily. It is not the domain of any single faith. OR all the members OF that faith. 'God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son." Abe said "Man, you must be puttin' me on!" God said, "Whoa." Abe said "What?" God said "You can do anything you want, But the next time you see me comin' you better run." Abe says "Where do you want this killin' done?" God says, "Out on Highway 61."' |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: mousethief Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:27 PM I don't know about the "new religion" excuse for Islam -- Islam went through long spells, over 500 and maybe as long as 1000 -- where it was the sole religion in charge of a good chunk of the middle east, and it was open and expansive, and invited innovations and science and math and the arts. The real ugliness didn't start until the Ottoman Empire fell at the end of the First World War. The openness and expansiveness came to a juddering halt and the teeth came out and the claws from the velvet. I don't know why that should be; but it's not because the religion suddenly got "young" again. O..O =o= |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Don Firth Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:05 PM I must agree wholeheartedly with what Joe says just above. And I, too, find that those who say things like "religion makes me sick" or want to blame all the world's problems on religion to be offensive in their willingness, sometimes eagerness, to be offensive. That viewpoint is extremely narrow-minded, and springs from emotional reactions rather than any (as they always claim) really well thought out rational base. The church I frequently attend (Seattle's Central Lutheran Church) has been fortunate in the pastors it has had over the decades. I have never met one who was of an authoritative nature. In fact, our current pastor (who is resigning to leave with her new husband for a post back East—and I sincerely hope we can get a new one who is as good) once held up a copy of the Bible and said firmly, "This is not the Boy Scout Manual. It is not full of answers. It is full of questions!" Those who try to base their power and authority on religion more than amply demonstrate that they really haven't a clue as to what real religious belief is all about. And that especially includes our better known "electric" preachers like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, et al. I have talked to Muslims who despair over the way the media talks only about the wild-eyed fanatics of their religion, giving a grossly distorted idea of what the belief is all about. And I can most certainly empathize with that despair. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:18 PM My dictionary (Merriam Webster) gives this as one of the definitions of prejudice:
You want a list of prejudiced statements, just from this thread? Here are a few:
Those of us at Mudcat who are religious, have made no attempt to deny the wrongdoing of religious groups, including our own. What we object to, are the wide-sweeping generalizations that condemn all religion so frequently here. There is prejudice here at Mudcat - lots of it - and it disgusts me. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: CarolC Date: 29 Jan 10 - 12:45 AM The real ugliness didn't start until the Ottoman Empire fell at the end of the First World War. The openness and expansiveness came to a juddering halt and the teeth came out and the claws from the velvet. I don't know why that should be; but it's not because the religion suddenly got "young" again. One word for you, Mousethief - oil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 10 - 12:49 AM The Ottoman Turks were relatively benign landlords over their Arab territories. After the end of the Ottoman Empire, "enlightened" Europeans took over, and they had no understanding of Arab religion, thinking, and culture. And they wanted Arab oil. No wonder there were problems. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Rasener Date: 29 Jan 10 - 12:51 AM OK I will hold my hands up and admit to making an on the spur comment that if I was able to edit my post would have been edited as soon as I realised what I had typed. On reflection the comment was meant to be "People who hide behind religion to justify their actions, makes me sick" So sincere apologies to anybody who was offended by my original statement. Backwoodsman wrote Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Exceute them From: Backwoodsman - PM Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:23 AM It's people who are the problem Les, not religion. They just use religion (or, rather, their perverse interpretation of religious writing and doctrines) as justification for their obscenities. A bit like the way thugs use football as a vehicle for their thuggery (witness the Utd/City match last night - and not all of the thugs were in the crowd). IMHO. And I responded with Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Exceute them From: The Villan - PM Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:28 AM Yep I agree BWM and yes Bonnie - its amazing. Thanks Bonnie. Not like me to not do the clickie. In hindsight, I should have posted with a correction to my original statement. I didn't, so very sorry. Sincerly Les Worrall |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Rasener Date: 29 Jan 10 - 12:54 AM Ah I see Joe has responded to my request to alter my comment in the first post. Many thanks Joe |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: CarolC Date: 29 Jan 10 - 01:11 AM Not only did the "enlightened" Europeans not have any understanding of Arab religion, thinking, and culture - they were too racist to care. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 10 - 01:29 AM Now, if you'd like a more positive view of Islam, take a listen to some of the lectures of Imam M. A. Azeez of Sacramento. He's funny, wise, and very interesting - and when you meet him in person, you're immediately impressed by his honesty and lack of pretentiousness. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Smedley Date: 29 Jan 10 - 02:34 AM Because I said this: "It is aggravating, but not surprising, when the religious apologists chime in on cases like this with "it's not religion". Sorry, but it is. These people were not executed because of their perceived hostility to broccoli, or synchronised swimming, or the novels of Ernest Hemingway." Joe O lumps me in with the more virulent anti-religious poosters, and replies with this: "Yeah, OK, it's about religion - but what we object to, is the implication that it's about ALL religion. We are religious people, and believe it or not, we're not like that at all." But in my post, I *also* said this: "Religions are big, baggy discourses and they can be interpreted in many ways, and they often inspire people to do great things. They also, evidently, inspire people to do appalling things." So I'd prefer not to be tarnished by selective quotation (although selective quotation from religious texts is a frequent device beloved by hard-core zealots - a category to which Joe does not belong, but you get my point, I hope). The point I war aiming to make was those the in relgious lobby (or lobbies) can't have it both ways. You can't say religion causes great good, but when it leads to great harm, it's only a 'pretext' or some such phrase. If it's just a pretext in the bad cass, it's just a pretext in the good cases. My favourite painter ever is El Greco, and I don't doubt for one second that the driving force of his astonishing art was a profound and sincere religious faith. At the same time in the same place (17th century Spain), the Inquisition were torturing, mutilating and slaughtering their victims, motivated by the self-same intensely-held faith. You just can't play the 'it's a prextext if we don't like the outcome' card. It just shows, as I said in my first post, that religious faith drives people in both hugely laudable and utterly despicable directions (stopping offand of course at various along the spectrum in between). So I suggest to those of you 'with faith' that you don't pick fights which those of us who are contented non-believers, but with those who (in your eyes) mangle and misinterpret and discredit your system of belief. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Smedley Date: 29 Jan 10 - 02:38 AM Lots of typos in that post - sorry ! It's 7.30 AM here & I've just got up!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 10 - 04:54 AM Sorry, Smedley, but you're still wrong. Yeah, you put a weakly mitigating statement later in your post, but your criticism of "religious apologists" here was just wrong. The "religious apologists" were rightly reacting against a statement in the first post, "Religion makes me sick." The original poster retracted his statement and apologized, but the "religious apologists" were certainly right to object. Nobody here supports the execution of the dissidents, and nobody denies that the tyrannical leaders of Iran are also religious leaders - but we certainly do object to putting blame on "religion" in general. Our complaint is about putting the blame on an entire class of people, rather than on the individuals who were actually responsible. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Smedley Date: 29 Jan 10 - 05:33 AM I know what your complaint is, but you're still lumping me in with the 'religion makes me sick' posse. And that is simply not what I said. So I'd appreciate it if you weren't so sweeping in your grouping together of people's opinions - isn't that kind of what you're complaining about the 'opposition' doing ? If my more qualified and measured points seem to you to operate 'weakly', then we will obviously have to agree to disagree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Teribus Date: 29 Jan 10 - 08:39 AM Rapaire - (28 Jan 10 - 09:33 AM) When you've got nothing to lose, why should you give a shit? If they're going to execute you tomorrow, why not attack the guards today? Well this guy seems to have had the answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Godwin_RNVR |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Don Firth Date: 29 Jan 10 - 07:02 PM "The point I war aiming to make was those the in relgious lobby (or lobbies) can't have it both ways. You can't say religion causes great good, but when it leads to great harm, it's only a 'pretext' or some such phrase. If it's just a pretext in the bad cass, it's just a pretext in the good cases." Smedley, maybe you'd better take another look at that. I presume that, since I spoke out against the original anti-religious statement, you consider me to be in the "religious lobby." But once again, you are lumping all those who ascribe to a religious belief as being of one mind. And, believe me, if you really know anything about the history of Christianity—or just about any other religion—you would know that is not the case at all. Not all Catholics agree. Nor to all Lutherans, or Methodists, or Episcopalians, or (name a religion). Why do you think there are so many different Christian denominations? Disagreements over any of a number of things, leading to schisms. At one time, very early on (around halfway through the second century), before the Catholic church really took shape as an entity (doing its darnedest to be monolithic, but never quite making it, not even now), there were some eighty-two "bishops," each claiming to be descended from one of the original twelve Apostles, rarely agreeing with each other on much of anything, and "excommunication" each other right, left, and center! It wasn't until the Emperor Constantine and the conference that produced the Nicene Creed that there was anything resembling cohesion in the Christian church. And that didn't last long!!! I've forgotten the exact number, but there are currently something like 150 different denominations, all of whom consider themselves to be Christians and most of them have some mutually contradictory beliefs. They range from so liberal that some say "It's hardly worth belonging to a church at all!" to extremely rigid and fundamentalist, trying to dominate every aspect of their parishioners' lives, and, frankly, wanting to take over the government as well (thank God for the First Amendment!!)! And the same holds true for Muslims. Why do you think there are Shi-ites, Sunnis, Taliban, etc? Differences of opinion leading to schisms. Breaking off and gathering around a different emphasis or interpretation of belief. Some just leave you along and welcome you to their churches and mosques if you feel so inclined. Others want to kill you if you don't believe as they do. Don't try to cram everyone into the same pigeonhole. In addition to it being unjust, it's unrealistic. Don Firth P. S. For comparisons, let me refer you to the threads having to do with Uganda's death penalties for homosexuals and the gay marriage debate on the Prop. 8 thread, and the many statements of some, saying or implying "All gays are—(fill in your own negative)." |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 10 - 07:25 PM To imagine that someone who objects to knee-jerk expressions of anti-religious bigotry is part of some "religious lobby" is ridiculous. You don't have to belong to ANY religion or religious lobby to have an objection to people expressing rank bigotry against other people merely because they belong to some religion. I object to bigotry against atheists. I object to bigotry against people of faith. They both have a right to their own beliefs and ideas. I object to bigotry, period. Does that make it clear? Bigotry is simply extreme intolerance. It is the automatic assumption that "I am better than them. My way is right. Theirs is wrong!" Your way is right for you...for the time being. Their way is right for them...for the time being. When conditions change, you may change. They may change. And the world will always be that way. It will always be filled with a variety of dramatically different ways and ideas. You won't get to make it all YOUR way, and thank something (God or at least good fortune) for that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 10 - 01:31 AM I think I'd say that religion is ethically neutral. It's people who do good deeds, and it's people to who commit atrocities. But to indicate that religious people are either likely or unlikely to commit misdeeds because of their religion, is just wrong. If they don't use religion as their excuse for doing right or wrong, they'll invent another reason. But the real reason is that they've chosen to do what they've done, by free choice (albeit under the influence of myriad factors). -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: How to rule by fear - Execute them From: Abdul The Bul Bul Date: 30 Jan 10 - 02:00 AM How about this one? Dubai |
