BS: Belfast Riots

Subject: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 12:01 PM

Turn in your weapons and just see what the prods will to you. More than 30 police officers were injured in Northern Ireland's worst rioting in years and the intent was to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 12:09 PM

these would be the policemen that you couldn't possibly approve of because they were so obviously lackeys of the prods and Brits

yeh you're right we don't understand...!

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 12:27 PM

Would you for goodness sake stop throwing light on the subject, that's the last thing they want.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 12:41 PM

Link since inflammatory Guest couldn't be arsed.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,bob
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 12:56 PM

Surely all those jolly good fellows from the disbanded IRA could form a police protection corps as they are so concerned for their safety. Laughed? I nearly flashed my fags.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

From the above link:

"At a news conference in Belfast on Sunday, Sir Hugh said he saw members of the Orange Order attacking PSNI officers."

Well, at least now, the police know who their enemies are.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 01:12 PM

Dont waste time posting, I saw these young chaps on television news, ages 5 to 13. Its not loyalists and another thing it was said on this site about loyalists murdering people in Northern Ireland and that the Troubles appear not to be over. Four times as many people have been murdered in London in the same period, the same number in Manchester as in the North in the same period. So drop the post and ignore the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 02:33 PM

BBC article here

It does seem to me that there is a loyalist element (and I don't mean all loylists) that has no interest in peace.

Ian Paisley (not surprisingly) is quoted as saying

"The Parades Commission are to blame for the mess that has been created,"

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 02:40 PM

That is the broken Ian Paisley record talking. When riots break out during loyalist parades, DUP and the OO blame the Parades Commission, or any other convenient scapegoat.

I wouldn't say this is anything to be ignored by a long shot. This is the most violent rioting to come out of the loyalist community in a very long time, and this sort of an orchestrated attack on the police and army is significant. To suggest otherwise is just irresponsible and dangerous.

This isn't a case of lads being lads.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 04:02 PM

Loyalists shot dead the first and last policeman of the conflict so why not the last public disorder act ! Look at the age of those arrested, kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 05:34 PM

It is a damn shame to raise children to hate at such a young age. The Loyalists have no corner on this, but it does show the problem with attaining for the people of the North of Ireland a lasting peace. What does one expect when a segment of society tolerates and encourages the desecration of churches, terrorizing of schoolgirls and balloons full of urine thrown at children.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 05:44 PM

Young boys have always been used as pawns by their respective communities in the Troubles, but Guest 1:12 & 4:02 is grossly exaggerating their involvement in the riots, in a pathetic attempt to gloss over the seriousness of the rioting and what it means to the security of the people and the peace process.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 08:39 PM

Irish Times

article:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2005/0911/

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 08:41 PM

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2005/0911/

Hope you don't mind, Garg.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 10:46 PM

Hey--every other time the Orange Order and Protestant paramilitaries have thrown these kinds of temper tantrums, it has worked like a charm, and the government caves to their demands.

Will this time prove any different? I doubt it. Already, there are politicians both sides the border lining up to take a shot a Sinn Fein and the IRA, because the IRA hasn't begun to disarm yet.

And of course, what isn't being discussed is, this is what those lovely Protestant paramilitaries and the Orange Order do when they aren't allowed to storm their way into Catholic neighborhoods.

Also what isn't being discussed is the widespread targeting of victims in Catholic areas all summer long, including targeting and running people out of their homes (a time honored tradition among the Protestant paras), a killing spree as the paras fight for dominance, and general building of tensions over Protestants not being allowed their "cultural tradition" of political dominance over and intimidation of the Catholic nationalist community.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 11:32 PM

... and all they wanted to talk about was something else ...

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 11:36 PM

"It does seem to me that there is a loyalist element (and I don't mean all loylists) that has no interest in peace. "

Jesus, Jon, you're ill-informed!
What a f***ing pillock!

You don't even know what 'Loyalism' means, for God's sake

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 11:38 PM

"Four times as many people have been murdered in London in the same period, the same number in Manchester as in the North in the same period"

... as it was during all of the 'Troubles', Guest.

Would that your media was as even-handed...

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:53 AM

What happened to the Drumcree threads? And what happened at Drumcree this year?

Though I must say that had it happened on the Falls rather than Shankill Gerry Adams would probably have been arrested by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:23 AM

I love to keep saying it, BUT I TOLD YOU SO.
Have a look at the photos and see the "young kids" rioting balding greyheads bedecked in orange sashes, and all because they cannot parade through Catholic areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:33 AM

What other city in the civilised world has 'catholic areas?'. And the beat goes on..............

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Stu
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:08 AM

"What other city in the civilised world has 'catholic areas?'. And the beat goes on . . ."

What is that supposed to mean? It also has Loyalist areas doesn't it? Or perhaps this was a stab at irony.

Tiocfaidh - define 'Loyalism' for people who don't live in the North then.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:12 AM

Other cities do. They are called "black areas", ghettoes, etc. Different issue, same shit.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:18 AM

You don't even know what 'Loyalism' means, for God's sake

By loyalist, I simply meant those whose natural allegience would be to the Brittish government. Call them protestants if you prefer, or suggest another name for people who live on one side?

I'm afraid when it comes to people, and whatever you care to call it lets say protestants and catholics, I don't see things in black and white that one side is all evil and the other side all whiter than white. That has never been my experience with any group of people (even folkies!) I've ever known in any aspect of my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:21 AM

Exactly, and until the people living there can stop defining their locality by religious allegiances nothing will change.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:29 AM

In over 25 years of social activism, it has been my experience that those that are descriminated against would gladly stop defining their loyalty by religious allegiances or color or whatever. They form these allegiances out of a need for self protection. It is typical of the discriminator, when public opinion is going against them, to say something on the order of "OK, time to stop defining ourselves this way. Let's all just get along". Sounds good, doesn't work. When you have systematically held folks down, in this case for centuries, then you must take pro active steps to correct the inequities in the system, as well as in folks attitudes. A good start would be to quit alibi'ing the actions of the various Loyalist groups that continue to attempt to shoot down all peace attempts. A second good step would be full prosecution of the people who do these horrendous things to Catholic kids and churches, never mind those that run folks out of their homes.

Why do you keep trying to justify and shift blame?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:32 AM

The loyalist community have a right to be angry. What has been handed to them on a plate for remaining loyal to our government ? Maybe they are seeing who it's done. And they were kids rioting, not grown men.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:36 AM

Shift blame, Mick?

I don't think so and think there are far more wrongs on the loyalist (british government even if you like) side. I agree that injustices can bring out the worst in people and situations can create terrorism - I feel that way over our governments stances over Iraq, etc. But there in lies a question:

Let's say the muslim case is strong... at what point would you justify the bombing of innocent people in London to uphold the cause? The IRA in my mind have done that and even if you chose to paint people who will do that whiter than white, I'm afraid I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:50 AM

Mick try and open both eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:40 AM

Disarm the loyalists too (Guardian)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:44 AM

I couldn't agree more, Wolfgang. Did write to my MP when a suggestion came up in MC...

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:51 AM

I have said in any number of posts, on numerous threads, that I have never found the bombing of innocent civilians to be a legitimate tactic. But the responses above exactly make my point as to why you folks are continually seen in a negative light. This thread is about the riots by Loyalists over the refusal to allow them to march through the same neighborhoods that have seen their 8 to 12 year old little girls terrorized in vicious ways that will likely scar them for life, thrown balloons filled with urine at them, defaced their churches, driven Catholics out of their homes at gunpoint in the middle of the night, and on and on. You folks, instead of attacking that want to keep on about the IRA. This group is the leader in trying to make the peace process work. The Loyalists are the ones trying to torpedo this same process. The Republicans have embraced the political process, and have given up the gun, even in the face of continued aggression from the Loyalist communities. And all you can do is be apologists for the actions of these enemies of peace.

Many things were done during this version of the troubles that are regretable and horrific. The tally sheet will give plenty of fodder for both sides to throw. The only road to peace is the one paved with the good intentions of the British people. Until they quit any support of the Loyalists whose aim it is to kill the peace process, the trouble will go on. The past is a road filled with recrimination, and both sides can make arguments as to the validity of theirs. The future will be built by the actions of decent people who act ......... or don't ...... in the best interests of peace.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:07 AM

Mick to say that anyone on this thread is being an apologist for the loyalists and that the british support them, shows just how far removed from this situation you are.

And the emotive acts that you continually state have been commited on BOTH sides. You see the majority of people living here want peace, not endless mud slinging. And where are these guns the republicans have given up?

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:09 AM

Wrong Mick, my responses were to what I percieved as insults.

My own view one this specific issue was expressed in the first post when I said,

"It does seem to me that there is a loyalist [simply meaning one side of a divide] element (and I don't mean all loylists) that has no interest in peace."

If I had my way there wouldn't be these marches...

They funniest or saddest thing in all this is that only republicans can put me off republicans... And once again, IMO, it was one of the more rabid ones that changed the directions of my comments in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:10 AM

GUEST - The guns are in the dumps as ordered. Hope that helps.

Mick - Couldn't have said it any better. :)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:26 AM

Sometimes things can be seen best from afar.

Both of you must agree as you continually post on the problems in the US, often with a great deal of self righteous indignation. If it is your right to continually tell us "Yanks" and "Plastic Paddy's" what is wrong with us and our government, then it is mine to say it as I see it with regard to the North of Ireland. Your only answers to the arguments raised are to try and raise the old "we just don't understand cause we don't live there" flag. It is a sure sign of the weakness of your arguments.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:52 AM

Mick you are unable to present a balanced view, because you don't hold one. Your bias is staggeringly naieve.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:56 AM

Who is the both Mick? I see one nameless Guest who I've no clue who it is (and therefore can not know what stances have been made elsewhere)and me disagreening with some of your stances and I for one can't remember ever accusing you of being a plastic paddy or suggesting you should not be allowed to express your views. Where do you get that from?

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:07 AM

Ever bought a newspaper that supports the IRA mick? Ever contributed to NORAID?

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:08 AM

Yes and yes. So what does that make me, GUEST? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:27 AM

As one who was born and bred in Belfast, I am appalled at the complete lack of knowledge from some of the above posts, especially from some "GUESTS".

To put it in a nutshell, the weekend of riots by loyalists was not caused because they could not march, it was because they could not march through a catholic district. In othere words their marches
(approx 4,000) from May to September are not marches to define or retain their culture, the reason for the marces is simply to antagonize their catholic neighbours. These marches do not mean anything to the orange order unless they accomplish that goal.

Antagonise, insult, etc etc etc. NO MORE. Orange marches through catholic areas would be the same as the american army marching through Hiroshima, or marching through Georgia, year in and year out. NO MORE. Hold their marches through loyalist areas as there will be no trouble. Period.

This violence wa orchestrated simply to ensure the catholic areas will feel threatened and maybe have to call on the I.R.A. for protection, then the loyalists and their politicians can start squaking about the I.R.A. breaking another promise.

The marches have nothing to do with culture, they have to do with antagonism, and if they fail to accomplish that, then the reason for marching at all will have lost it's meaning and hopefully they will just fade away, much like the orange order is doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:28 AM

The last post abot the reason for the marches is by me.

Jimmy.C

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Den
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:29 AM

And where are these guns the republicans have given up?

You might want to chat with Canadian General John de Chastelain. He was brought in to over-see the decommissioning of IRA weapons. He and The Independent International Commission on Decommissioning seem satisfied that the IRA have complied.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:31 AM

Hello, Jimmy. Thank-you.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:42 AM

Come back Conrad Bladey, all is forgiven. I used to detest your extreme loyalist views over here but I'm beginning to think there are some republicans in this thread who deserve you.

Jon

Over and out for this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM

Well done epona. Hope you are mighty proud of helping to buy the means to murder innocent adults and children. And Mick, as someone else who has also upped their coffers, it's easy to wax lyrical from another continent while financing murder elsewhere. And you have the gall to call others self righteous.

I'm out of here too, have you noticed mick, no one living in the UK shares your views, guess that means we are all wrong. Roll on your next veterans thread, the hypocrisy reeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 11:14 AM

I take pride in helping to promote the peace process through non-violent means through Irish Northern Aid. I love the organization and it's members. Check out the mission statement, GUEST, if you are in doubt of their peaceful goals now. www.inac.org.

I'm also proud of collecting historical newspapers, which are displayed in my office, in order to preserve the memories of the struggle. It is always amazing to me to see the development over time of the Republican movement in the North, and I am extremely proud of that progress as well, though we have a way to go.

Helping to buy the means to murder innocent adults and children? YOUR tax dollars and mine go to funding the same thing...have you been unaware of the British and American troops in Iraq? I appreciate your attempts to disrupt the discussion, but the members of mudcat will keep on in your absence. Enjoy your day...nothing but blue skies here. :)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 11:20 AM

As one who is as neutral as can be imagined...neither Catholic OR Protestant, and only vaguely Irish, and having read stories about all this since about 1970 or so, I see plenty or blame to go around and plenty of narrow, bitter, self-centered views about cause and solutions....much as in the middle-east, the Balkans or Los Angeles.

But in the current context, I must agree totally with Jimmy C. The spark in these troubles was a march, planned and carried out knowing it would open old wounds and dare the hot-heads on the other side to "do something about it" so a claim could be made that "he started it"! The marches seem to me to be 5% celebration and 95% provocation, with no real goal except to assert their 'rights'.

I can just imagine the result if the Israelis, having withdrawn from occupying Gaza, now assert their 'right' to march thru it a couple of times a year. (and I don't care if you consider that an inaccurate comparison...it makes the point)

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 11:27 AM

Jon, you are correct. Chalk that one up to quick response. I have just went back and read all your contributions to this thread. I could do that because you use the identity always. You have never suggested that I or anyone else is a plastic paddy. In fact, your responses are usually very respectful. I don't agree with you on all aspects of this, but you do not deserve to be lumped in. I apologize.

GUEST, you are another matter. You simply fall back on the old tried and true, "You are naieve" line. Doesn't hold water, and is a sign of intellectual weakness. The fact is that most, by a remarkable percentage, of the provocations are being done by the Loyalist/Unionist community in the hopes of destroying the peace process. This can only be because they want the status quo maintained. I find it laughable that they are now whinging about the concessions given to the IRA. Where were these cries of outrage over several centuries of the favoritism that benefitted them. And this isn't ancient history. The fact is that until the Good Friday Agreement, the institutional discrimination against the Catholic/Republican folks was rampant.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:01 PM

Where are the ususal IRA mouthpieces? very quiet on this thread. Expected to hear a history lesson. Spoke to a friend in Belfast last night who said the incidents which appeared on the news were it. A few cars burned and a swipe or two at the police and army. Media making news out of nothing.