BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 01:34 PM

"The IAEA wants Iran to detail research into P-2 centrifuges, able to enrich uranium fuel to bomb-grade level faster than the P-1 centrifuges it now operates, and credibly clarify its possession of documents showing how to make an atom bomb core.

Another key issue, the IAEA says, is Tehran's failure to explain intelligence reports of links between work on processing of uranium ore, explosives tests and a missile warhead design.

ElBaradei has said that, overall, Iran has not proven it does not harbour a military nuclear programme at undeclared locations, and Tehran's halt to short-notice IAEA inspections in February has magnified such concerns.

The Islamic Republic threatened on Tuesday to freeze ties with the IAEA -- which Vienna diplomats said would amount to quitting the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty -- and accelerate its atomic programme if it were hit by international sanctions.

The crisis has escalated with Iran's public spurning of the Security Council's March 29 call -- Tehran has announced it can purify uranium for use in fuelling power stations and that it has an active P-2 centrifuge research programme."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/26/iran.nuclear.reut/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 05:25 PM

Jesus, beardedbruce, why don't you just change your nickname to "getallyournewsatcnn.com?"

And, no, no war with Iran. Unrealistic, unwinnable, unfuckinglikely. Iran has already won, will have nuclear power, will have nuclear weapons, and there's nothing the US can do about it. Nyah. All the copy-and-pastes in the world won't change that, dude.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 05:34 PM

LR,

I have to disagree with you. Even the EU has decided that the actions of Iran are outside the limit of civilized nations.

They MAY get nuclear weapons, but they will not have them very long.

Those who feel that thee Iranians "deserve" to have nuclear weapons will have some of the responsibility, by the encouragement they provide, for the next nuclear war. I hope that will make you happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 06 - 08:36 PM

PARIS - European nations, backed by the United States, outlined Tuesday a planned U.N. Security Council resolution to give "mandatory force" to the atomic watchdog agency's demands that Iran halt uranium enrichment, officials said.
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Iran/

TEHRAN, Iran -    Iran's first target would be    Israel in any response to a U.S. attack, a Revolutionary Guards commander said Tuesday, reinforcing the Iranian president's past call for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

"We have announced that wherever (in Iran) America does make any mischief, the first place we target will be Israel," the Iranian Student News Agency quoted Gen. Mohammad Ebrahim Dehghani as saying.

Dehghani, a top commander of the elite Revolutionary Guards, also said Israel was not prepared to go to war against Iran.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2631&ncid=2631&e=1&u=/ap/20060502/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_israel_8

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 May 06 - 08:53 PM

It isn't Iran or Korea who's next...

It's Bearded Bruce! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 06 - 08:55 PM

More likely Canada or Mexico, since the only reason the US takes action is for oil ( according to some here)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 May 06 - 09:28 PM

No need to. Canada and Mexico have already been conquered long ago, economically speaking. The problem with Iraq was, they had oil contracts arranged with other parties...such as Russia, France, and China. So does Iran.

(See? I was right. You were next.)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 06 - 09:53 PM

Welcome to the right!

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 May 06 - 10:07 PM

Thanks, eh? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 May 06 - 10:22 PM

The Sudan will be next.

Iran is too hot to handle and what does Korea have that we want? Not much.

Sudan will divert attention from the "Iraq situation" so it won't look like the U.S. lost anything. They will continue their "War on Terror" in the Sudan at bin laden's invitation.   

More people will die.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:32 AM

NEW YORK (CNN) -- World powers meeting in New York have failed to reach an agreement on a United Nations resolution on Iran and will probably not have a text this week, a senior State Department official said after the talks finished for the night.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/09/iran.deadlock/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:52 PM

VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- The U.N. atomic agency found traces of highly enriched uranium at an Iranian site linked to the country's defense ministry, diplomats said Friday, adding to concerns that Tehran was hiding activities aimed at making nuclear arms.

The diplomats, who demanded anonymity in exchange for revealing the confidential information, said the findings were preliminary and still had to be confirmed through other lab tests. But they said the density of enrichment appeared to be close to or above the level used to make nuclear warheads.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/12/un.iran.ap/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:11 PM

same story- AP feed

"One of the diplomats told The Associated Press that the samples came from equipment that can be used in uranium-enriching centrifuges at a former research center at Lavizan-Shian. The center is believed to have been the repository of equipment bought by the Iranian military that could be used in a nuclear weapons program.

The United States alleges Iran had conducted high-explosive tests that could have a bearing on developing nuclear weapons at the site.

The State Department said in 2004 that Lavizan's buildings had been dismantled and topsoil had been removed in attempts to hide nuclear weapons-related experiments. The agency subsequently confirmed that the site had been razed.

In an April 28 report to the U.N. Security Council and the IAEA's 35-nation board of governors, agency head Mohamed ElBaradei said the agency took samples from some of the equipment of the former Physics Research Center at Lavizan-Shian. The diplomat said the evaluation of those samples revealed the traces in question."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060512/ap_on_re_mi_ea/nuclear_agency_iran_4;_ylt=Arf4K0OrkKT4Vz1VYtqbazxSw60A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9m

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:22 PM

Soleimani said Iran had a parallel nuclear program, with the military hiding uranium enrichment facilities while showing inspectors of the Vienna-based UN watchdog International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) civilian facilities.

http://www.iranmania.com/News/ArticleView/?NewsCode=27104&NewsKind=Current+Affairs

Highly Enriched Uranium Traces Discovered in Iran by Inspectors
By Felicity Barringer
The New York Times -- UNITED NATIONS

International inspectors have found traces of highly enriched uranium at an Iranian facility, according to a new confidential report distributed on Tuesday. The traces could be an indication that Tehran has already produced weapons-grade nuclear materials.

Iran denied producing nuclear materials, said the report, by the International Atomic Energy Association, the conclusions of which were obtained by The New York Times. The report added, "Additional work is also required to enable the agency to arrive at conclusions about Iran's statements that there have been no uranium enrichment activities in Iran involving nuclear material."

The Iranians, the report said, explained that the trace particles found by inspectors at the Natanz uranium enrichment plant had been on the equipment when it was purchased from another country.

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V123/N35/long335.35w.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 May 06 - 10:05 AM

Iran isn't bluffing (DER SPIEGEL interview)

Asymmetric diplomacy (opinion in DER SPIEGEL)

A man responsible for sending half a million Iranian children out to track down landmines during the Iran-Iraq war is surely capable of anything.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 May 06 - 10:43 AM

Neither.
The administration needs a success such as a reinvasion of Grenada.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:00 PM

Who is Wahdat-Hagh? Does he currently live in Iran, or is he, like the Iraqi ex-pat "experts" who provided the Bush administration with a lot of bogus "information", an exile with an ax to grind?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:05 PM

Ah, now I see the answer below his picture. He is a native of Germany with Iranian parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Teribus
Date: 14 May 06 - 06:40 AM

dianavan - 05 Nov 04 - 10:44 PM - No, the U.S. will concentrate on Iraq and Afghanistan.

dianavan - 28 Nov 05 - 12:26 AM - Who's Next? Iran, or Korea? Neither: Azerbaijan.

dianavan - 02 May 06 - 10:22 PM - The Sudan will be next.

dianavan - WATCH THIS SPACE for the next randomly selected candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 06 - 03:42 PM

Oh...would that I had the time to search through other Mudcatters' posts for every inconsistency and change of mind they have ever uttered online... Heh!

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:51 AM

Who is Wahdat-Hagh?

He wrote his dissertation about the political system in Iran after the revolution against the Shah and has published several articles about Iran.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 May 06 - 02:28 PM

That one was easy littlehawk they all came from this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 06 - 02:41 PM

Yes, well, that would make it easier. ;-) Still, it seems like a bothersome task to go through just for the sake of portraying another human being as a fool or an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 06 - 02:54 PM

By the way, you may recall that I suggested some time ago that Liechtenstein was next...but I don't think it was on this thread. Well, the New World Order is being very canny about it, but I just know they are going to spring Liechenstein on us all when we least expect it, just like pulling the proverbial rabbit out of the hat. It'll be right after the giant cheese danish falls out of the sky and kills 8500 people in a WalMart in Texas. Watch for it! And get out your Put Options on Walmart stock well in advance so you can cash in after it happens.

Hans-Adam is a monster, I tell you. Another Hitler. Worse than Saddam and Osama and Noriega and Ahmadinejad (or however the hell you spell his name). He has GOT to be taken out, and he WILL be, but first the public must be alerted to the danger and the awful truth about Liechtenstein's weapons of mass destruction. That won't happen until after the Cheese Danish hits the fan....so to speak. ;-)

Now that you know it ALL, start storing up provisions, buy gold, and get ready for the worst. Liechtenstein will make Iraq look like a picnic. They have pastries coming out their eyeballs in that captive land.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 06 - 11:16 AM

"Only after we have created the requisite negotiating framework and explored all aspects of diplomacy should the issue of military measures be addressed. But neither should force be rejected in principle and for all time before we know the circumstances in which this last resort should be considered.

The issue before the nations involved is similar to what the world faced in 1938 and at the beginning of the Cold War: whether to overcome fears and hesitancy about undertaking the difficult path demanded by necessity. The failure of that test in 1938 produced a catastrophic war; the ability to master it in the immediate aftermath of World War II led to victory without war."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/15/AR2006051501200_2.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:36 PM

Even Wolfgang's "Iran expert" doesn't think Iran has any intention of attacking Israel. According to him, Iran's posture is a defensive one. Here's what he has to say about it...


"Since the 1979 revolution, it has become clear that Iranian policy has two faces: a pragmatic one and an apocalyptic one. On the one hand, Iran is smart enough not to endanger itself. That's why I don't think the country is trying to obtain a nuclear weapon in order to carry out a first strike on Israel -- they are all too aware of what the consequences would be.

But even Khatami said, "if we are attacked, we will turn the region into hell." One has to take such a threat seriously. Seventy percent of the world's oil supply passes through the Straits of Hormuz in the Persian Gulf. The Iranian defense minister calls it the "world's throat" -- and it's in Iranian hands. To block the straits, all you need is three divers, a couple of mines and a ship. With incalucuable consequences. Furthermore, 40,000 people have already volunteered as jihadis. Ahmadinejad's position is: We'll fight with everything we've got if we're attacked. If we have to, we'll destroy you and ourselves together."

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Teribus
Date: 16 May 06 - 01:36 PM

"To block the straits, all you need is three divers, a couple of mines and a ship."

Eh, No.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:14 PM

Carol, you have an awful debating style.

Even Wolfgang's "Iran expert"... may lead to the impression that he is an expert only in my mind. First, I have never used the expression "Iran expert", so to use my name with that quote is totally wrong. Second, you do everything you can to disqualify an interview with a renowned expert. Have you any reason for that except you do not like everything he says?

Reread your stupid posts about him:
Who is Wahdat-Hagh? ...
Shooting from the hip, making stupid assumptions only showing you have not read the link in which why he (and not just anyone else) is interviewed is made clear prominently below his picture.

Ah, now I see the answer below his picture. He is a native of Germany with Iranian parents. (5 minutes later)
That's cheap. As if that alone would make him an expert. But you are still in your prejudiced an exile with an axe to grind mode and therefore only quote the birth information part and omit that he is a political scientist and Iran expert at a research institute. The interview has not been made just with any randomly chosen exiled Iranian like you want to imply.

I then merely mentioned the fact that he has written a PhD thesis about Iranian politics to counter your selective portrait of him. That makes him Even Wolfgang's "Iranian expert" in your eyes? The "even" is also a very cheap trick. You want to make people think that he was the most extreme opinion I could find. Don't make all these assumptions, I have linked to an interesting interview and I may or may not agree with him.

You have an awful debating style, Carol.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:29 PM

CarolC,

" One has to take such a threat seriously. "


WHY???

YOU have stated that the Iranians are liars, and DO NOT MEAN WHAT THEY SAY. So, WHY do we have to take this threat seriously, if we HAVE to ignore the Iranian president's past call for Israel to be "wiped off the map" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:54 PM

You make a lot of totally erroneous assumptions, Wofgang. Talk about awful debating styles.

I don't see my posts in this thread as "debate". So that's the first erroneous assumption. I see my posts as being participation in a dialogue between people with different perspectives on a particular subject.

But the fact that you frame it exclusively in terms of "debate" explains a lot about your own faulty thought processes in this thread as well as many, many others.


However, in response to your ad-hominem arguments; in the first place, I wanted to know what Wahdat-Hagh's perspectives on this subject were based on. Knowing something about his background is a good way to get a sense of this. I was focused on reading the article and I missed the caption under his picture. In fact I missed the picture entirely.

Second, I did not make any value judgements about his background when I found out what it was. The statement that he is a German native with Iranian parents is a simple fact (I know "facts" are something you have great difficulty recognizing), and I only posted it to show that I had found the anser to my question.

Third, you must have missed the post in which I used a quote from Wahdat-Hagh to support my own argument. Had you seen that post from me, you would know that I haven't dissmissed what Wahdat-Hagh had to say at all.


You're such a hypocrite, Wolfgang. Everything you are accusing me of, you, yourself have done in your 16 May 06 - 03:14 PM post. And I am continually astonished to discover how shockingly shallow your thinking is.

I am also continually astonished to discover just how often you engage in the kinds of faulty thought processes that I would expect someone with your background to be able to recognize, even when he does it himself, like projecting. Most of the things you accuse me of here in the Mudcat are your own projections onto me of your own biases and limited thought processes.

I think you are just pissed off because I have been able to use your own source to support my argument, and attacks like the one in your 16 May 06 - 03:14 PM are the only way you know how to deal with your anger.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:55 PM

Ask Wolfgang. It's his expert who said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:56 PM

(my last was for beardedbruce)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 06 - 09:24 AM

"YOU have stated that the Iranians are liars, and DO NOT MEAN WHAT THEY SAY."



"Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 08 May 06 - 04:39 PM

"As for what they say, I refer to the declaration that Iran will destroy Israel, and that Hamas will not take any negotiations to be binding upon them."

Yes. I think they are lying. .... The people you are talking about are trying to sway the opinions of their target audiences in order to solidify their hold on power in their own countries, and they will say whatever it takes to accomplish this goal. "

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:10 AM

beardedbruce, I did not present Wahdat-Hagh's commentary in support of my arguments. I showed how even the person Wolfgang presented as an expert is in agreement with my arguments. I'm not going to try to defend Wahdat-Hagh's statements. Wolfgang can do that if he wants to.

By the way, I never said that Iranians cannot ever be believed.

But I would say that, like with all other governments (all of which do lie whenever they deem it to be in their interests to do so), people need to weigh their words against other factors.

So if you want to try to throw everything they say at me with that quip of yours about me saying they do not mean what they say, I would say to you that I'm sure they sometimes mean what they say. But I will weigh what they have said against other factors when I decide whether or not to believe them. As I do with all other governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 May 06 - 04:36 PM

Carol,

if you are unable to understand the implication of an expression like even the person Wolfgang presented as an expert I cannot help you. We all know it is never your fault that your debating style becomes the focus in these threads.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 06 - 05:07 PM

Uh-huh. You're all just sweeping Liechtenstein under the rug, I see. Ha! You're in for a rude awakening, not that it really matters, because there sure ain't anyone on this forum who can do a damn thing about any of this geopolitical stuff anyway. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 06 - 02:00 AM

if you are unable to understand the implication of an expression like "even the person Wolfgang presented as an expert" I cannot help you.

Of course you can't. Because it is pure conjecture on your part. And incorrect conjecture at that.

"even the person Wolfgang presented as an expert" means that I am not the only person who agrees with me. Even the person Wofgang presented as an expert agrees with me. That means there is at least two of us, and Wofgang supports the other of the two. That means even Wolfgang, at least indirectly, supports what I am saying.

You really need to stop putting your own interpretation on my words, Wolfgang, because you are completely incompetent when it comes to that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 06 - 02:28 PM

LOL

And the reason my debating style is so often the focus of discussion in threads like this one is because when people (people like you, Wolfgang) are not able to successfully dispute the factual content of my posts, they (and you) resort to ad hominem attacks. It's the best you and they can come up with when you and they haven't got anything of substance to offer. Like in your last several posts to this thread. And also when they are angry with themselves for providing me with stuff I can use in support of my arguments, like you did in this thread.

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself, though. You screwed up, but you really need to try to put that behind you and get on with your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 May 06 - 02:17 PM

What I said. You don't understand.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 06 - 02:32 PM

More like you don't understand, Wolfgang, seeing as how I know what I mean by what I say, and you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 May 06 - 04:55 PM

And then....there's Liechtenstein!!!!! Be afraid. Be VERY afraid.

It may be hard to spell, but it's even harder to "take out". Very rough country, and people who are willing to fight to the last butter tart!

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 06 - 05:51 PM

They are already on OUR side.


"Liechtenstein has, ... recently concluded a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty with the US. "

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ls.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 06 - 05:52 PM

LOL, LH.

Wolfgang is wasting his energy trying to divert attention away from the fact that he got caught with his pants down in this thread. If he was smart, he'd be letting you do it for him.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 May 06 - 10:00 PM

I've never had those kind of feelings for Wolfgang, Carol... ;-)

Don't be fooled so easily, BB! Saddam's Iraq was once a US Ally too. Not too long ago, in fact. Liechtenstein will reveal their real colors any day now, when they invade and occupy Switzerland!

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 06 - 10:33 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 06 - 06:31 AM

"Military - note:   
defense is the responsibility of Switzerland "

"Diplomatic representation in the US:   
chief of mission: Ambassador Claudia FRITSCHE
chancery: 888 17th Street NW, Suite 1250, Washington, DC 20006
telephone: [1] [phone]
FAX: [1] [phone]

Diplomatic representation from the US:   
the US does not have an embassy in Liechtenstein, but the US Ambassador to Switzerland is also accredited to Liechtenstein "

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:39 PM

Sometimes I think Giok was right starting that thread last year about Carol being (like) Shambles.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:47 PM

I think personal attacks are beneath Wolfgang and Carol and that you should both quit it right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 06 - 02:26 PM

Yes, good point, dianavan, although sometimes I think personal attacks are the only thing Wolfgang has in his arsenal. So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:23 AM

Despite the bleak situation, we think that the best suggestions to get out of this crisis is to entangle the American forces into another war ... we have noticed that the best of these wars is the one between the Americans and Iran.

When Bush reads this found memo from Al Qaeda in Iraq he might get an idea what not to do. At least one can hope.

Wolfgang